Is CTC fast becoming the only way?

[scientifics]

With the advent of CTC and this sponsorship scheme is this the only way forward for budding wanabees? It seems that all the airlines could go to CTC to fulfill their FO quota's without the hassle of doing it themselves.

Would someone in a years time be able to go to say multiflight or Oxford and go from 0 to fATPL and still get a seat in EZY? What does failure mean for those deemed not good enough by CTC? Are they taking over? The impression CTC seem to give is that if you don't get into their scheme thanks for the £150 but you might not want to bother with your life long dream as our way is the only way etc etc....

[Slim20]

Well, in regard to your question about EZY the answer is YES! CTC is the only way in for a wannabe.

CTC takes the risk of selecting and training the cadet, EZY takes the finished product under guarantee from CTC, and CTC foots the bill if the cadet falls on their ass at line check.

If you are Mr EZY looking at pilot recruitment, it's a no-brainer compared with taking on all the risk yourself! The way CTC makes money from EZY is through the TRSS scheme which is aimed at all experienced, non-type rated pilots.

[scroggs]

The CTC scheme is currently the only way for ab-initio pilots to enter easyJet. Effectively, this is a company sponsorship scheme contracted out. Some other airlines are testing the waters with CTC; others may either join or start similar schemes elsewhere, if they are convinced of the value of low-hour pilots.

However, there are other ways of entering the airlines (including EZ, if that's your aim) once you have some useful experience!

Scroggs

[High Wing Drifter]

CTC foots the bill if the cadet falls on their ass at line check.
My understanding was that the student takes the risk and foots the bill if they fail. The only apparent risk to CTC seems to be loss of reputation by fielding a stream of unsuitable candidates.

[scientifics]

So what if BA, BMI, etc all join up does that mean that all the wannabees who don't make the CTC grade might as well forget about being a pilot? This CTC scheme may well end up screwing it big time for a lot of young guys/gals.

[High Wing Drifter]

I imagine that their current selection process takes account of the meagre number of pilots that they currently need. Should all the major carriers come on board, then they will have to lower their very high standards.

I remain impressed by the calibre of the CTC chaps wot I met at BGS.

[lookoutbelow]

I have a couple of friends that have done the Global Aviation Solutions scheme on the B737 and have securred jobs with Excel Airways.

My only point being that although CTC provide alot of the industries low houred FO's to Jet operators there are other companies doing it as well (on a smaller scale).

[scientifics]

Do you have a link or a web address for Global? I have tried a google search but I have not come up with anything.

thanks

[scroggs]

scientifics wrote:
So what if BA, BMI, etc all join up does that mean that all the wannabees who don't make the CTC grade might as well forget about being a pilot? This CTC scheme may well end up screwing it big time for a lot of young guys/gals.

I take it you would want the airlines to set their entry standards to whatever would get you in?!

The system as it stands, where anyone with enough money can get the appropriate licences, is highly inefficient. A large proportion of those entering training will never get airline jobs because they simply will not get to, let alone pass, the airline selection process. A cursory examination of some of the contributions to Pprune will give you a clue as to why many won't be offered an interview!

A system similar to the RAF's or the old BA cadet scheme, where all ab-initio candidates within a narrow age group are carefully assessed before entering flying training, produces far less wastage and a far more consistent product. It's expensive to set up and maintain, and would no doubt create a riot amongst those wannabes who feel that all opportunities should be open to them as long as their wallets are fat enough (and among the flight schools that feed their fantasies), but it is arguably a better scheme. The CTC scheme replicates this with the added advantage (to the industry) that the financial risk is borne by the candidate. I would say it's a cast-iron certainty that this model will be imitated by other schools and airlines.

Discuss. :}

Scroggs

[scientifics]

I still find this unfair. If someone is not young enough or does not meet CTC's criteria does not mean they are incapabale of becoming an excellent pilot.

[scientifics]

I have to disagree, I bet there are hundreds of pilots in command now who probably would not have got through a selection procedure like CTC's or BA's, it does not mean that they are incapable of being an excellent FO or Captain. To add a hierarchy training scheme to all UK airlines just does not make sense. They don't have this kind of thing in most other countries and I do not think they have a problem with recruitment and quality pilots.

[scroggs]

Unfortunately, that's not the way the world works. Just because you could do something does not mean you should do it. I'd love to be a rock star. I'm sure, with enough money thrown at guitar and singing tutors, I could make a passable attempt at the job. But that doesn't mean I'd be any good, nor does it mean that the music industry should accept me.

Aviation is the same - but more so. There are a limited number of pilot seats available. There are something like 100 wannabes for every seat. We have to filter you, and we do it along proven (although sometimes arbitrary) kines. If you don't like it, tough. You have no right to a flying job. Take the industry to court, if you feel that strongly about it - but you'll get nowhere because we can't make jobs to fit everyone that wants one.

Scroggs

[Arrowhead]

From memory, the way low houred wannabees got hired in the last year was either:
a) CTC -> charter airlines/Easyjet
b) DHL, Britannia, BACX via direct application
c) Self sponsored type rating -> Excel, Ryanair, BMIbaby, Astraeus, Jet2 (+ Air Asia, Jetstar etc in the far east)
d) Daddy knows/is someone important in the airline
e) People converting from Gound Ops to flying within an airline

So far in this thread, everyone seems to have forgotten the self sponsored type rating (SSTR) route as another entry method.
If you are prepared to invest c. £20k learning to fly/operate big jets (rather than spending time and money on instructing/boring holes in pistons), then you stand a good chance at getting a job. SSTR gives you RELEVANT experience, makes you immediately hirable, and puts you in front of those without jet experience.

3 catches:
1) You need to spend/borrow a lot more money
2) If you dont get hired quickly, you need to spend money on keeping current, or much more money on line training (Eaglejet)
3) If you have the wrong personality, you'll never get the job anyway

In summary, SSTR is a good (but not perfect) fast track if you are one of the 90% of CTC applicants that did not make it to the last round, and if your parents are not suitably employed, and you are bored of your existing job. Take a look at GECAT, Alteon, and Astraeus (plus one more soon to be announced), and read up on them on these boards. Choose your type carefully (737 or A320 probably make most sense). And remember, life is not a dress rehearsal...


>>---->

[scientifics]

Cheers for the information Arrowhead. Do you have any links to the GECAT or Alteon sites? I have done a search but it has proved fruitless. Are these 0 hours-TR? Very similar to the CTC scheme but without the job prospects.

[Arrowhead]

Come on, if I can find GECAT and Alteon A320 scheme contact details via Google, then so can you...

And on CTC, get on it if you can. But bear in mind that only 25% are invited to attend selection (Phase 2). 50% fail phase 2, and 50% fail phase 3 - on average. No-one really fails phase 4 (the jet experience part).

[scientifics]

I am too old to apply so I pondering where to do my training and what plan of action to take for my career. I am hoping to open all avenues so I am not naive or blind whilst trying for my dream. Astraeus do a course with stapleford where they offer you 0 hours to 100 hours with a 737 TR. I don't know, there are so many places where you can train I am just a bit overwhelmed at the moment. I will probably end up in Florida at Delta, EFT. We'll see.

any advice

[Mooney12]

Arrowhead - where did you get those figures from about CTC selection?

I think you guessed....

We were told by CTC, 40% get to stage 2. Ive heard of nobody who didnt make it to stage two actually. If you read the thread on the CTCMcAlpine scheme, you hear very little mention of people who don't get to stage two, perhaps this is because those who read pprune are better and much more informed than those who do not (Id say this is probably the case).

But I did wonder where all those rejections were coming from.

We were also told only 25% make it to stage 3, then about 40% to stage 4.

Who knows what the exact figures are, they are liable to change all the time, but overall, as of May this year CTC had taken 2.2% of all applicants. Thats the bottom line.

So its definately not the only way forward - it couldnt possibly be with figures like that. Self-sponsoring is the way forward for 97.8% of people who apply to CTC for the cadet scheme.

[B3av]

Just like to repeat scientifics request for links please Arrowhead.

Thanks!

[AlsWings]

A large proportion of those entering training will never get airline jobs because they simply will not get to, let alone pass, the airline selection process. A cursory examination of some of the contributions to Pprune will give you a clue as to why many won't be offered an interview!

Every wanabee thinks they are suitable, (including me!) but is there any way of gaining an airlines perspective, before you train?

I've looked to Gapan, and various airline websites who highlight the qualities needed, but is this enough? I realise there's no point in spending £40k with no job at the end. This is mainly aimed at Scroggs and anyone with an airline job currently.

Thanks:)

[Arrowhead]

Phase 2 and 3 pass rates of 50% each were based on the people on my intake alone. Maybe my Phase 2 was a lucky one... (I did not make it all the way...)

[scientifics]

I might as well give up if I were to listen to Scroggs

I suppose it is the same if you go to Uni spend 4 years on a degree and then don't get a job. Ok you will have less debt, but the principle is the same.

[scroggs]

Just like to repeat scientifics request for links please Arrowhead.
As Arrowhead said to scientifics, it's a simple matter to find these via Google. It took me less than 30 seconds for each company. Please assure me that you normally show more initiative than this?
scientifics wrote I might as well give up if I were to listen to Scroggs

I suppose it is the same if you go to Uni spend 4 years on a degree and then don't get a job. Ok you will have less debt, but the principle is the same.

Yes, you might as well give up with an attitude like that.:rolleyes: This industry requires candidates with initiative, determination, resourcefulness, and grit. If you think it's difficult now, you are sadly mistaken. There just aren't enough jobs for all the people that want them. Get over it and do something to make your chances better than the next guy's. The jobs won't come to you.....

Scroggs

[scientifics]

Are you as sarcastic as this on the flight deck?

[scroggs]

No. I don't fly with people as defeatist as you. The people I fly with have done their hard times, some of them have stories that would make you wince. Every one of them has character and they would likely succeed at anything they attempted. They are people who have lived, and have a contribution to make. Not one of them would bore me on a 14-hour Hong Kong flight, and none of them are prone to self-pity or crying about the unfairness of their lot. Many have lost their homes and families through their determination to get where they are, and plenty will be pretty damn poor once they have to retire thanks to the bills they've clocked up on their way up the system.

So why should I give you an easy time? Remember how this thread started....

Scroggs

[scientifics]

I find you very amusing.

Obnoxious-yes, but still amusing.

I merely commented on what I have perceived to be happening. If you don't have a constructive comment to make then perhaps you should not bother answering. I thought the purpose of these forums were to help and direct people onto the right path so they may enjoy the same career you love so much and not to answer almost all posts with some bemused sarcastic and inane comments.

For the record I am not defeatist and I am not full of self pity and like many others on here I am determined to over come any obstacles that may be thrown in my way.:ok:

[BoraBora007]

"Many have lost their homes and families through their determination to get where they are"

"Plenty will be pretty damn poor when they retire."

"some of them have stories which would make you wince"

hmmm

As far as I can see Virgin pilots get paid pretty damn amazing.

Up to 94k + £15.60/hour flight pay for a captain.

Thats pretty damn rich by most peoples standards.

You make it sound like were soilders in Vietnam. Hardly.

Its still an enjoyable and well paid job, which makes for a good life (including family). Thats what I find anyway.

[scroggs]

For the record I am not defeatist and I am not full of self pity and like many others on here I am determined to over come any obstacles that may be thrown in my way

That's more like it!

No, I don't answer every query with sarcasm (I invite you to check all my posts for yourself...!). But neither am I here to wipe the bums of babes and tell you everything is going to be OK. There is a very hard world out there but, with careful and intelligent use of these forums, you will prepare yourself better than your peers for the trials ahead. I have no time for those who complain that this or that is unfair; you have to play the hand you're dealt, not the one you wish you had.

I hope you manage to make your way through the maze and eventually find yourself in an airliner pilot's seat, if that's what you want. When you get there, you may understand more of where I'm coming from.

Scroggs

[Overtorque]

Must say I agree with Scroggs. I suffered his wrath in the flight deck - it only made me more determined to succeed. Aviation isn't a career for those who can't face constant criticism and assessment - it's a way of life.

Cheers Scroggs - see you at the bash!

[scroggs]

Ouch! You will get a spanking for that, young lady!;) :p