Orient Thai

[varigflier]

Recently I knocked on the door of Orient Thai airlines and was told that if I go there with a 747 type rating and no time on aircraft but with a good attitude, I would be considered for a job. My question is: Why can't they find enough qualified people? They have been hiring for quite some time it looks like and now they are willing to hire without the 500 hours on type. What do you guys think my chances are? Thanks in advance.

[sanook]

I wouldn't go anywhere near them. I wonder why they can't seem to attract any experience????

[varigflier]

That is exactly what I am wondering.........:confused:

[CFIT]

From what I've been told, the airplanes are marginally maintained, and SOP's do not exist. If you are desperate for a job, or need to build those precious heavy jet PIC time for the next job, this is probably the place for that. Good luck!

[747Dweller]

The 747 pay is very low. About $5000 USD for Capt. and $3000 for F/O and F/E. You must provide your own accomodations in BKK. Roster doesn't allow for commuting. High turnover. Hajj. Many crews furloughed earlier this year. Operation uses local and foreign crews. Etc., etc., etc.

[topman999]

Well, I know many will scorn me for this, but this is real good opportunity IMHO. This would be a true gem of a position for a recently retired captain or SFO from one of the mainline carriers in the west who has just left the 742/743. The pay is satisfactory and really, quiet frankly allows for a very high standard of living. Indeed, having spent 4 years based in bkk I can honestly say that such money being offered would facilitate even the most hedonistic of lifestyles. To put it into perspective... a QUALIFIED english teacher in Bkk at the moment is pulling in about 35000 - 40,000 B a month. This would allow for a reasonable standard of living - about the same as an average mid class western lifestyle. If you dont believe me, go ask them. The salary being offered by Orient Thai works out at 225,000 Baht Roughly speaking. So...go figure. I stand by it, despite previous counter replies, a good relatively centrally located apartment can be had for 10000 Baht a month. 15000 tops. I do know of at least 1 individual living close to the airport (about 15-20 km from Sukhumvit area) paying 6000Baht a month ( ~ $130 a month). This person has a 2 bedroom clean apartment with balcony and good security. This is the norm not the exception. And please, dont use on line apartment sites as guide prices - of course they are going to charge 4-5 more for next to the same thing. I am saying that with just a little bit of networking at a local level, excellent apartment rates can be had.
So frankly speaking, in summary, the type of person that these positions would most likely suit are
(a) A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside, and who is interested in making some more money in wonderful tropical environment. The main motivation should not be the money but the lifestyle that can be had and also the ability to remain current on the 742/743 and enjoy a nice variety of flying.
(b) A 742/743 rated individual who is presently looking for work and cannot secure a flying job in their home country/continent.

If you fit either of the above criteria, particularly (a), DONT bash the pay issue. Chances are such pay will allow you to live the highest standards you have ever lived before.

[sanook]

Well well Topmann. If you can find an apartment for B6000 then I wonder if it is under a park bench. A nice house near the airport will cost you B40,000 a month exc utilities. I should know as I live in Bangkok. Remember the small issue of tax. 40% of income sound familiar. Get your facts straight my friend and if anyone who wishes to fly around in a Classic for a year or so , why not go somewhere where your experience and ability is recognised.

[Foreign Worker]

Now that topman has given his reasons FOR, I will present the AGAINST.

(a) They are not paying MARKET price for any Captain, let alone an experienced B747 one;

(b) The miserable salary allows for "a very high standard of living", IF you are willing to expend ALL of it, and save NONE;

(c) Now HERE'S the teller, "A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside".
In other words, be prepared to have to dip into your savings, to subsidise this job.

(d) "A 742/743 rated individual who is presently looking for work and cannot secure a flying job in their home country/continent." Read for this, "Standards are at the bottom end of the scale - rejects welcome!!"
DONT bash the pay issue. Chances are such pay will allow you to live the highest standards you have ever lived before.Why do those two sentences seem to contradict each other? "DONT bash the pay issue."...in other words, the pay is :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:, followed by,
"Chances are such pay will allow you to live the highest standards you have ever lived before."...to be read as, "If you are a reject, EXTREMELY wealthy and willing to fork out some of your OWN money, or come from a country where rentals are about "~$130 a month", or less, then we can shaft you accordingly!

Orient Thai - YOU are the weakest link!

[spleener]

TM999;
Most retirees would like [or may need] to either;
a. retire [!] or
b. keep flying

If b. : most professionals would desire to work on well-maintained equipment in a company with reasonable safety standards. A fair salary comensurate with skill and experience would also be expected. However, I do understand that the opportunity work in your own particular idea of "paradise" may offset the salary issues if continuing flying is more important than monetary reward.
However, OX fails miserably on the equipment/safety/remuneration issues. Unless you desperately need to live in BKK and/or are equally in need of flying with a demonstrably shaky operation, then I wouldn't recommend the OX experience.
Now I will admit that I know and have known a few desperates who've given the OX a go. ALL have done a quick exit, citing a litany of outrageous safety breaches.
Dunno if I'd want that kinda thing in my retirement job. For the hours builder, remember, not all hours are treated equally by the more reputable prospective employers...
:sad: :sad:

[747Dweller]

The income is taxed??? The Orient Thai advertisement suggests that potential applicants consider "your personal tax situation" when weighing the merits of OX. That would be somewhat misleading if in fact the Thai's were forcing foreign pilots to pay tax.

[ZFT]

I’m in no position to comment on Orient Thai, but I can on BKK living.

Acceptable apartments (and even houses) can be found for 6k per month providing you don’t mind living off the beaten track. However, unless you speak adequate Thai and have a means of transport then this isn’t really an option, more so if you have a family. However I don’t accept you need to pay 40K. Good accommodation can be readily found for less than half of this amount. Utilities can cost another 7-8K per month.

Additionally, the government recently announced that the current easing of work permit restrictions for foreign pilots would cease in about 1 year.

All foreign nationals working in Thailand pay income tax. (There are some exemptions but aviation isn’t one of them). Personal income tax is as follows based upon annual salary. It is worth noting that the tax is amortised over 12 months, so if employment finishes mid tax year you may have a problem.
In theory overpaid tax is recoverable, in practice it isn’t:-

1-80,000 baht =0
80,001 - 100,000 =5%
100,001 -500,000 =10%
500,001 -1,000,000 =20%
1,000,001 - 4,000,000 =30%
4,000,001 - and up =37%

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

:}

Well chaps if you're divorced the kids have left home and never visit. The ex is sleeping with your old FO (Thank God) The good old company has given you a rolex (fake gold, batteries not included) and a pat on the back wispering good luck in your retirment. You've lost most of your cash on nightstops with loose women. Even the Flight attendants due for retirement won't sleep with you.

Well head on down to VTBD on an Annie 4A. Beers, Bar,girls :mad: Jobs, :mad: licks and F word till you die.

:} :mad: Sounds like me!!!!!!!!!!

Errr!!! you guys got that address again??????????.

[topman999]

From foreign worker....

"(c) Now HERE'S the teller, "A retired 50+ captain or FO retired (ideally no major committments like kids!) with a decent bit of money put aside".
In other words, be prepared to have to dip into your savings, to subsidise this job."

U R incorrect. What I mean is that one cannot expect to come home after say 5 years (or any number of yrs in the relative short term for that matter) with a lot of money. I am not saying savings from the west will need to be touched, I am saying that this job will not provide much money for retirement IF the said pilot retires in the west.
I wonder how much UA, CX or BA pay their 747 captains. My guess is somewhere between $150k - $200k per yr. So in other words 3-4 times orient Thai, yet it is well known that cost of living in Hong Kong/London/Chicago is easily 10 times that of Bangkok. See where Im going...its called being relative. How could any western 747 pilot expect western 747 pilot wages in bkk given the above comparison. Its ridiculous. The present offer is at the very worst fair, and frankly speaking I think its a good offer.
Mgt are very approachable as well I am told

[GlueBall]

And besides good cuisine, there are other luscious benefits in this wonderful monsoon mecca of pleasure, eh? :)

[Foreign Worker]

" How could any western 747 pilot expect western 747 pilot wages in bkk?"
Because if they are looking for "western B747 qualified pilots", that is what they are going to have to pay.
Their retail pricing of their product reflects they charge "western prices"!!

Or are you saying that Orient Thai is just another Asian sweat shop!

From other posters on this thread, it seems to me that Orient Thai is being run on a shoestring, and is cutting corners wherever possible.

I, for one, would NOT want to be onboard any of their aircraft in ANY capacity, knowing this.

[spleener]

Topman,
Your salary packages for the big boys aren't close. However this is not about salary, if OX were a reasonably safe organisation your arguments would hold water. Unfortunately, the fact is that only Capt Wooblah makes a creditable argument in favour of joining.
By all means, go to BKK, I think it is a great place for some RnR, including a few beers with the nice approachable chaps of OX. As far as Orient Thai go as an airline; this is a Professional Pilots forum and you have my and others' professional opinions. Opinions based on 2nd hand, but trusted knowledge. Have to agree with FW's sentiments.

[varigflier]

Thanks for all of your inputs guys. I appreciate it.

[MJPilot]

Varig, are you ready for the 747 type now?

[Iso]

Toppman,

I appreciate your comments and Thailand is a great place to work and OX is a good company which is getting better. However, your prices on apartments are way out. I don't know what you expect to live in, but I won't live like a dog, because others do or will. If you are going to live here, do yourself a favour and gets some desent digs. Unless of course you are from Bangladesh and anything will do - perhaps share a room with 10 others....now there's an idea.

Reality, if you want something half decent, then you will shell out B20 000 for a decent place....minimum!

[dai chon doi]

i've just been down to bangkok and caught up with some orient thai blokes on the 757, if even half the stories are true i'd give it a wide wide bearth, certainly as an f/o. nothing about the company sounded good. quite a few furloughed us pilots, they have a few guys from good backgrounds as f/o's and some as capt's but the rest are appalling by all accounts. bangkok did seem very cheap though if thats any consilation.

[varigflier]

MJpilot,

Almost ready for it. I hope everything works out good.

[topman999]

Foreign Worker,

The reality of the situation is that there are an army of captains, FOs and FE lining up trying to get interviews with Orient Thai. My source. I do know for a fact that more than a few very experienced western typed rated pilots and FE have not even reached the interview stage due to the demand for the positions. Like it or not there IS a real demand out there to work for Orient Thai. They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them. From what I have been told (and this seems to contradict other posts) the pilots are happy with whats on offer and so to are mgt. I do know one captain there who is from the US and met him after about 2 months working there. He was beeming from ear to ear the whole time. Simply delighted with the whole package offered. But alas, I suppose I will be beaten down here yet again for refusing to adopt this "bash the asian airlines" culture so prevelant here.

Iso,
I simply get no "kick" or pleasure out of telling you that THERE ARE good quality 2 bedroom apartments available in bkk for 6000B a month. Anybody who knows anything about thailand will tell you that over the past 15 yrs one of the few things that have not incrased in prices are the cost of renting apartments. I have seen my friends apartment for 6000B by the way, and frankly speaking it is above that of the average 2 bed aprtment available in the west and has good security too.
Further Iso, I feel it highly inappropriate and insensitive for you to come on here and make smart and downright racist remarks against people from Bangladesh. This is really not called for at all. Get your facts in order before mouthing off such nonsense like that please.

[sanook]

Well Toppman I can't resist having a go at your latest post. Topmann living living in squalor sounds great!! If all you can allow yourself in Bangkok is a 6000 per month room flying for OX then enjoy it !! as I'm sure that everyone else would rather live in a 30,000 house and live at the accustomed standard of living expected to which you have obviously been deprived of during your time in the twilight zones.
Bangkok is a enjoyable place to live but you must live WELL!
Your'e only here once so why not enjoy it

[varigflier]

Toppman,

If there are lots of pepple in line for a job with Orient Thai, then why would they keep on posting on most aviation websites? Have you seen the latest one? It was posted today and you don't even need to be a member to read it. Check it out on climbto350.com

[yyzdub]

topman... agree with what you said about the pilots - have heard similar myself. However, you're mad to say/think that 6000Baht will get you a two bedroom apt. I lived at Ekamai Soi 63 in the Grand Hi Tech which is moreorless the city centre and I paid 8000Baht for a room that was a bed and tv and not enough room for anything else and that was 1999... so, that's first hand. Got a lot of mates in BKK working in various fields and the norm for a western style 1 bedroom is at least 20 000Baht.

[Foreign Worker]

topman999,
You are full of it!
Within the last week I have spoken to an F/O (from the US) who went there, and voluntarily left - post haste - within 4 days, simply because Orient Thai are operating with NO Operating Procedures.

They are an accident, looking for somewhere - ANYWHERE - to happen!

The long used proverb of "You pay peanuts to get MONKEYS" was never truer than in this case.

Monkeys, feel free to apply,
To Orient Thai!

[747Dweller]

I think topman must be on the recruiting team!

A friend applied and was offered a job in an email message. No interview. No phone call. I think its safe to say that the statement ".......have not even reached the interview stage due to the demand for the positions" is not accurate. Its not that sort of airline. Its more like "got a pulse + got a type = got a job".

Lets do the math. A Captain would make about 3500USD after the tax is paid. Minus rent (and I wouldnt count on finding a 6000B place, probably much more), electric and water. Minus mobile phone. Minus food. Minus transportation. What could possibly remain? What kind of Captain could you get for that?

[DEOne]

Clearly all is not well at OT. But I've got a good mate there who's flying as an FO right now. Just the other day he was driving a tractor in Germany 14 hours a day because some idiots went and flew into a couple of buildings.

Great job? Clearly not. Opportunity to get career, family and life back on track as well as put bread on the table? What do you think...?

[topman999]

"I think topman must be on the recruiting team!

A friend applied and was offered a job in an email message. No interview. No phone call"

Now really, who is "full of it here" ???

"But I've got a good mate there who's flying as an FO right now. Just the other day he was driving a tractor in Germany 14 hours a day because some idiots went and flew into a couple of buildings"

The utter stupidity of this statement does not even worthy comment.

And for the fun of it lets take another one...

"Orient Thai are operating with NO Operating Procedures"

See reply to last comment above.

Perhaps to the non biased readers they will see the rubbish coming through and can see it for what it is

yyzdub,

I agree with you that 1/2/3 bed apartments can be had for 20/30k a month but my point is that that there ARE GOOD apartments available for 6k+. Maybe if certain "big ass, big ego" captains actually got their finger out and did some research instead of going through some "agent" (what can any1 expect regarding prices if this is the way they go) than they would actually see whats going on for real.

[747Dweller]

I can honestly say that I dont have a horse in the race. My posts have all been factual. I think its important for anyone considering Orient Thai to know the full story.

A company that has "no problem attaining excellent crews" would surely not need to place ads every couple of weeks with a note that its "urgent".

Whats your connection to Orient Thai topman? I really dont expect you to answer that honestly, but I thought I would ask anyway.

[spleener]

Sorry Toppman if things really are as you say, however I just got back from Bkk and had a few beers with some current and ex OX chaps:
1. Rental and cost of living: THB6000/mth doesn''t get you anything like a comfortable lifestyle in a good area. OK for a young single guy on a shoestring maybe. My mate's place near Nana is a nothing special; a tired 2 bed flat that costs THB28000/mth - found for him by his Thai girlfriend. It does have a pool and gym.
2. Retaining crews: your story is: rubbish. Not only commanders but management as well have departed the scene after a short tenure. Why?
3. Safety issues; ALLEGEDLY: SOP's [!], publications [jepps], training [err - go and pick up your training captain in HKG! on a type you haven't flown for years], recurrent sim checks [more licences signed than bodies in attendence], maintenance [non reporting of AOG defects, not carrying out basic turnaround checks etc], min hrs and experience sub-standard F/O's, F/E's - well apparently not needed on the 2-pilot L1011! This is not an exhaustive list as related to me by Pilots and EX-management but I think you get the actualised picture...

[topman999]

"My mate's place near Nana is a nothing special; a tired 2 bed flat that costs THB28000/mth - found for him by his Thai girlfriend"

Hmmm my earlier remark about "big ass, bid ego" crews some to mnid again. Dont you think Spleener that it is more likely that his girlfriend is creaming some that cash off on top of the rent and than just refering the price of 28k / month to him ??? Reason I say that is ask ANY local thai about paying 28k on a average looking apartment around the nana area and you will know what I mean. Again, use ur common sense.
Regarding the other issues of having ads on line asking for crews urgently...It is a legal requiremnt of most airlines that hire foreign crews to give every full opportunity to local pilots first. This may well be what they are doing here. In every profession, jobs are advertised for even though the position may well be filled already as it is a legal requirement to at least present the position opportunity to the public. A little sly, perhaps, but this happens in every profession in every country if we are honest about it

[rwyinsight]

I see that OT has another AD on Climbto350 today for the B747/757. Not the "urgent" posting this time. I have received an email offer subject to getting the rating! To me sounds strange that a carrier will hire without interviewing , having a medical or sim eval? Regardless of this company is a T/R worth the cost when most companies still want the min time on type?

[Foreign Worker]

Come on "top man" - who are you? You feel that you need to defend Orient Thai in almost every single post you have made.

May I reflect on some of your previous quips...
"I am saying that with just a little bit of networking at a local level," - so at this point in time, you are advising us to go to the "local level", to try to get cheaper accomodation.
But then, when one of the guys does, you admonish him with this, "Dont you think Spleener that it is more likely that his girlfriend is creaming some that cash off on top of the rent and than just refering the price of 28k / month to him ???"
Now if a guy can't trust his "local level" girlfriend to get the best rate for him, WHO can he trust?
Then you say, "ask ANY local thai about paying 28k on a average looking apartment around the nana area and you will know what I mean."
No, I DO NOT know what you mean!!

First you say one thing - then you say another, topman!

You, topman, also stated, "They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them. but then we (the rest of the world) see that Orient Thai is STILL advertising for crews, despite your statement, "The reality of the situation is that there are an army of captains, FOs and FE lining up trying to get interviews with Orient Thai.",
and,
"They have no problem attaining excellent crews and most importantly retaining them.".

Let us cut to the chase, top man. IF you want properly qualified, PROFESSIONAL crews flying your airplane(s) - people who will take care NOT to damage them (why do you think some people can't work in their own countries??), and preserve your cashflow, you're going to have to pay market rates.

IF you are happy to have some misfits, and inexperienced guys who want to use your airplane(s) as a semi-disposable piece of training equipment, hen go right ahead.
You'll soon learn that you get EXACTLY what you've paid for.

Guys with any integrity are NOT going to hang around a shonky operator.

Operators of integrity do NOT want shonky pilots.

You make your bed, you lie/fly in it!

[spleener]

Okay so maybe I haven't seen this straight:

For the new-guy:
You get paid peanuts to live in substandard accommodation, fly poorly maintained equipment, getting experience[s] that no future employer would credit as worthwhile. But, hey the sex is cheap.
For the retiree:
As above except that you don't need the hours.
That's it.
Therefore: Gotta take this job because the sex is cheap.:ugh:

[Foreign Worker]

So if you take a job with OT, EVERYONE gets to get right royally screwed, at the cheapest possible price!!

Right?
In every profession, jobs are advertised for even though the position may well be filled already as it is a legal requirement to at least present the position opportunity to the public. A little sly, perhaps, but this happens in every profession in every country if we are honest about it You are really just making a lot of this up as you go along, aren't you topman. That statement is a load of baloney!

[varigflier]

I see that OT has another AD on Climbto350 today for the B747/757. Not the "urgent" posting this time. I have received an email offer subject to getting the rating! To me sounds strange that a carrier will hire without interviewing , having a medical or sim eval? Regardless of this company is a T/R worth the cost when most companies still want the min time on type?

I am in the same situation as you. Get the type, get the job.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Topman barred from the thread. While I know many of you were finding allowing him to dig deeper holes for himself entertaining there are a few poor souls falling for this odious hokum.

Topman - fantasist or recruiter? Well the answer is a bit of both as any of you with two brain cells to rub together will have found when you've viewed this unsubtle idiot's previous posts. Judgment really does fly out of the window along with your intelligence if you believe a word from this jerk.

Topman is preying on the helpless, desperate and naive. However, anyone getting a rating on the basis of a start with this bunch is hollering from the shallow end of the gene pool and deserves every last bit of the crap that goes with this outfit. You have been consistently warned by your peers. For those intellectually dwarfed by a demented bumble bee here it is again.


The airline? We very strongly recommend you don't touch them with a bargepole.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

PS - The perceptive, experienced and thought provoking views of this mittyesque, braindead vegetable are best viewed on this Rumours and News thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110544&perpage=15&pagenumber=4

Since that outstanding debut topman has hidden out in places like this.

[Taikonaut]

Not in the race whatsoever but there seems to be a bit of conflict going on here in regards to rents in BKK.

I'm not defending Topman or siding with anyone here but since I work for a US carrier and live in Thailand I think do have some factual input here.

First of all, yes, if you want to live in the "exclusive" expat neighborhood you will pay, i.e. Sukhumvit, Ekamai, Nana, Silom etc. Yes, you will be very comfortable with 20 Starbucks within 10 minute walk. Skytrain that will whisk you and your Thai girlfriend from Patpong to Nana in 5 minutes. A nice place on Wireless road will set you back 40,000-60,000 baht/ mo ($1000-$1500 USD).

What Topman is refering to is places outside those areas. Yes, you can get a nice two bedroom near the airport for 6,000 baht/ mo ($150 USD/ Comfort Suit Condo/ Hotel). So it will take you no more than 200 baht ($5 USD, and I'm being very generous here). to go from airport to the Sukhumvit area in 20 min.

It's all relative gents. If you were to live in HKG, you would definitely pay more on the island in the mid level area or in Kowloon for less than half the cost. Yeah, so it'll take you a bit longer to get to the local watering hole but what is your priority here?

If you are hired by OX or even thinking of putting an app in for OX then you are bottom feeding since you are looking job that doesn't pay so well, no sop, no benefits etc... If you are furloughed with seniority number with US carrier then it's a fun break while waiting for the recall. But if you are there becuase no one else wants to hire you for what ever reason then which area you live in is not your first priority. Bangkok is a very safe city. It's not the Thais but other farangs that will do you in.

Beggars can't be choosers. If this is not the case then all this is a moot point anyway.

If you are that desperate then the last thing you would want to worry about is living in the exclusive area paying out the ass while working for OX???

If you work for a US 121, Cathay, JAL etc. pulling in $100k+/ year and living in Thailand then go ahead and move into the nice neighborhood with a Benz in your car port. But otherwise, live within your means.

I hope I've cleared up some housing issues here but then again, may be not...

[varigflier]

Sounds like you have the best of both worlds!!!!!!:ok:

[varigflier]

There is a rumor going around that now you have to do a real flight on the ac with the Thai DCA in order to convert your type rating if you don't have any time on type. Does anyone else hear anything about this???:confused:

[747Dweller]

I know an O.T. F/O that was recently denied a validisation because he didn't have any time on type. Riding with the Thai authorities wasn't an option. The answer was NO. I don't know what their current ad says, but it appears the situation has taken a turn for the worse. No time on type means no validisation. A type rating received in the sim won't get you a job here unless you have some time in an actual plane.

[varigflier]

If that is the case then there will be a few more NOs in another month as there are a couple guys doing their type right now who are going to O/T with no time on type.:confused:

[CAPTAIN WOOBLAH]

Guys,

Read my previous post if its not your last sex romp before you die then stay clear of this joint.

BKK 6000THB what a load of puke

The machines (seem a bit of a worry)

The operation questionable, the loads stink and the planes are parked most of the time especially the 74's

The fares up and down trying to compete with the other players and quite frankly you don't have to be Einstien to see that there is no yield. (just go count pax and look at the fares)

Where the cash is coming from well who knows !!!???!!!

Perhaps it should be called DODGEY AIR.

BTW WHY WOULD ANYBODY WORK THERE WHEN THERE ARE SO MANY JOBS AVAILABLE WORLD WIDE FOR REAL AIRLINES PAYING REAL MONEY. GO FIGURE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wooblah.

[connection fee]

Does anybody else hvae any updates where the Thai DCA stands on this and how much experecnce on type they actually want?

CF :O

[varigflier]

Everytime you contact them you will get a different answer. It's still all up in the air.

[sanook]

This just confirms what everyone on this particular topic has been stating for some time about this oufit !!!!!

"Enough Said"


A Thai charter plane veered off course while approaching Tokyo's Haneda Airport last month, almost hitting the Tokyo Tower, a well-known landmark in the Japanese capital, a newspaper said on Monday.

The Orient Thai charter jumbo jet came within 200 metres (656 ft) of striking the tower, a 333 metre (1,093 ft) high copy of the Eiffel Tower, when it veered to the north during the final stages of its approach to Haneda just after midnight on September 19, the Mainichi Shimbun said.

There were no passengers on the plane, a Boeing 747-200 that was to depart for the Thai resort island of Phuket, a popular destination for Japanese tourists, after picking up passengers at Haneda.

Orient Thai airlines said the plane's captain had failed to explain to his crew the content of a manual on landing at Haneda, the Mainichi said. The captain is to be suspended, the paper reported the company as saying.

"The plane appears to have come near Tokyo Tower, but we don't know exactly how low it was flying at that point," a Transport Ministry official said.

"This has never happened before, and we would like to know the reason," he added.

(Reuters)

[dai chon doi]

everytime i go to bkk i seem to hear another horror story about this mob, i'm simply amazed they haven't been either closed down or restricted as to where they can operate. by any account any best practices that seem to have evolved in our industry are by and large disregarded there. i understand guys longtime furloughed from usa going there but why would anyone else?

[Foreign Worker]

"i understand guys longtime furloughed from usa going there but why would anyone else?"

Time on type, possibility of a "quick command", get current again - anything that will enable some to bs their way to a decent job.

Sorry guys, employers are now aware of this company, and how some of you might try to use it.
Do not waste your time, money and effort.
You may well find yourself in a worse position, than if you had NOT gone there.

[kwaiyai]

Yeah its a shame foreign worker. I would love to relocate up there due personal reasons but not for that hassle.
Regards,

[Dengue_Dude]

Wow, what a thread.

Started with a simple question (not a kiss like the song says).

Got a kiss though, a Glaswegian one.

Has OT got OTT?

Obviously brings out the best in people!

Greatings from 'gorgeous Utarra' Bangladesh (don't ask).

Whatever you fly and wherever you are - do it carefully.

Regards DD

[maverick1980]

hi, i'd like to know if orient thai is doing the hajj for anyone this year. what are their plans this hajj and are they expanding their services in the winter schedule.

would appreciate if someone could let me know

thanks

[varigflier]

It looks like they finally updated their website. No mention of needing pilots anymore.:ooh:

[maverick1980]

who are they doing the hajj for this year or is it that they have no hajj contract. they just put an add on climbto350 yesterday for current and qualified 747 crew (urgent). i wonder why they want crew so urgent.

[varigflier]

Few people are willing to accept what they are offering and I hear there are quite a few people leaving also.

[dai chon doi]

just back from my my most recent bangkok jolly and i can confirm that there is a great great deal of unhappiness with the chaps at this mob now, reasons are vast, but largely covered on these forums. guys are already either leaving or in the process of

[varigflier]

Well, that explains the urgent posting on climbto350.com
Only time will tell what will happen to them.

[Taikonaut]

I think you guys are missing the whole point.

People don't work for Orient Thai. I thought it was just a good excuse to live and play in Thailand.

To expect more would be an act of futilism...:uhoh:

[dai chon doi]

taikonaut, unless you're on a wind up you're missing the point matey. most professional pilots still have financial obligations in whichever country they originate/live. anyway i just heard 3 pilots have resigned, or left. you see having a laugh in bkk on rubbish money only lasts so long.

[Taikonaut]

Not a wind up mate. Used to work for them when they were just a scumbag operations. But we all knew what we were getting ourselves into flying from one war zone to another in a couple of broken TriStars.

Unfortunately it still is a scumbag outfit disguised as an airline with nicely painted aircraft. The maintainance has not changed. The mentality of the management has not changed. There is not one original crew (Orient Express, Kampuchea) left (last one left in 2001).

It was fun while it lasted. and it lasted for as long as it could. None of us expect much from it except as mentioned above. Just an excuse to have a good time. Some were low time jet pilots, some were no time pilots who wanted to fly a jet, some were retired from the majors and just looking for good times before they hang up their wings, some were just losers with nowhere elses to go. But we all knew the company's limitaions. You just can't bleed a crab and we knew that.

Get what you came for and get out. If they can't give you what you want then don't go there.

If you have financial obligations then bite the bullet mate. We have all been there trying to make ends meet. No one put a gun up to anyone's head. If one don't like it then one leaves. Period.

Don't let the shiny paint job fool you...

[connection fee]

Does anybody have anymore info on the Thai DCA not recognizing folks with type ratting with no time on type?

So it appears that this outfit is dodgy as anything, Why hasn't the Thai DCA put their foot down, or are they just as usless too?

CF

[varigflier]

It seems like they are doing it case by case. If you're willing to gamble, show up with the type rating and see what they say.

[piratepete]

if OTA IS SO BAD WHY HAVE THEY BEEN ABLE TO EMPLOY SUCH HIGH CALIBRE STAFF AS EX B.A. MANAGEMENT, CURRENT UK C.A.A. TRI/TRE INSTRUCTORS, AND VERY HIGHLY EXPERIENCED PILOTS FROM LARGE AIRLINES WITH MORE THAN 6000 HOURS ON TYPE , AND EX RBA FLEET MANAGERS ETC. MAYBE, JUST MAYBE THEY LIKE BKK AND THE MONEY AINT THAT LOW. THEIR STANDARDS OF TRAINING ARE VERY HIGH. THEIR CHARTER WORK IS VERY CHALLENGING AND MOST AVERAGE AIRLINE PILOTS SIMPLY WOULDNT CUT IT IN SUCH A DEMANDING ENVIRONMENT. IF YOU WANT SOME EXAMPLES JUST ASK ME. WITHOUT A SCRATCH TO ANYONE (touch wood). the thai d.o.a. inspectors personally observe every sim check and by all accounts are quite satisfied by what they see. i suspect a lot of the posts here are sour grapes and are a disgrace.

[topman998]

Really great to hear someone like Piratepete speak up on this matter. Well done mate because you are simply speaking the truth. I have come to the conclusion that there is simply a racist culture on this forum. Withness the recent treads regarding working in japan and the horrendous ecoteric approach by many. Not a thing done by moderators about it.Than there is the singapore airlines thing...and CAL and KAL and... well, this one I guess. Just read through the pages 1 to 5. Well...anyway...back to the subject matter at hand.
I find it incredible that many are speaking of the so called mass exodus from Orient thai...as its simply not the case. As Piratepete puts it, take a look at who is actually involved there - real professionals from National carriers. I didnt want to mention it b4 but evidently so now it is offically there. There is and always has been mass demand for persons to settle in the wonderful tropics of thailand. There will never be a case where an airline like Orient thai is going to run into problems recruiting bright, talented westerners. Such a thought is laughable. They are presently turning applicants away as we speak. But alas I know too many here are loco and believe Orient Thai is Anathema.
Ive said it b4 and I will say it again, this airline IS a quality airline, exceeding passenger expectations as well as staff. Its a matter of take it or leave it I suppose, but I will say this and no more, be very wary of persons on this forum trying their level best to dissuade persons from trying to even contact OT in the first place, because in my opinion they are just trying to deviate any would be competition for themselves. This is also the case with other airlines as mentioned above. Certain posters are trying trying trying (!) so hard to paint a bad picture so as to turn people off and hence beat off any competition in this part of the world. Thankfully, in the name of greater quality and range, this is not happening. These airlines are still doing very well regarding recruitment of staff and indeed poses some of the very best pilots around the world.
You can bring a horse to water....

[Beechdrivr]

piratepete are you sure you're not topman998?

You sound an awful lot like one another:E

Check out those profiles:confused:

[BlueEagle]

"Well done mate because you are simply speaking the truth. I have come to the conclusion that there is simply a racist culture on this forum. Withness the recent treads regarding working in japan and the horrendous ecoteric approach by many. Not a thing done by moderators about it.Than there is the singapore airlines thing...and CAL and KAL and... well, this one I guess. Just read through the pages 1 to 5."

TopMan998 maybe you are forgetting this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142527) posted only a couple or so months ago by Sick Squid?

[411A]

And...then there is this latest news...

http://feeds.bignewsnetwork.com/?sid=8e4b76c8c4d0c5dd

Hmmm, seems everyone is not satisfied...:uhoh:

[sanook]

Spin doctors at work from inside OT !!!! Piratepete ,Topman.
Ot is a shambles and everyone knows it. It has nothing to do with racism, just plain fact! Thai DOA inspectors with 1000hrs total time???? They havn't a cluewhat they're looking at anyway. The home market is a complete mess with Malaysian crew operating most of Thai Asia schedules.

[ZFT]

Sanook

There’s an acid test. Would they let their wife, daughter etc..fly with them to save a few Baht? I pay the extra on TG & PG and sleep at night.

As for the others - no way.

[spleener]

Pirate Pete and Topman. Nice try guys.
TM998 - any relation to Topman999?
Quote from the moderator 17 Sep...
"Topman barred from the thread. While I know many of you were finding allowing him to dig deeper holes for himself entertaining there are a few poor souls falling for this odious hokum.

Topman - fantasist or recruiter? Well the answer is a bit of both as any of you with two brain cells to rub together will have found when you've viewed this unsubtle idiot's previous posts. Judgment really does fly out of the window along with your intelligence if you believe a word from this jerk.

Topman is preying on the helpless, desperate and naive. However, anyone getting a rating on the basis of a start with this bunch is hollering from the shallow end of the gene pool and deserves every last bit of the crap that goes with this outfit. You have been consistently warned by your peers. For those intellectually dwarfed by a demented bumble bee here it is again.


The airline? We very strongly recommend you don't touch them with a bargepole.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

PS - The perceptive, experienced and thought provoking views of this mittyesque, braindead vegetable are best viewed on this Rumours and News thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...15&pagenumber=4

Since that outstanding debut topman has hidden out in places like this."



:E

[HotDog]

411A, whilst not wanting to enter into this debate, the vandalized aircraft at Utapao were two Tristars, not 747s. Apparently nothing to do with fare war rivalry but pure local vandalism by someone who had nothing better to do. My info comes from a serving F/E employed by Orient Thai.

[topman998]

Hi Spleener,

Maybe you could try a link that actually works and stop wasting our precious time. As for Mr Lloyd, I am still at odds as to why I was barred from this threead in the first place. Maybe OT dont pay pprune commission and as a result...lets just say some people here just have an attitude problem to be honest.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Here at the Towers we have not changed our opinion. The posts of topman999 are available for all to judge for yourselves.

topman has to live with what he has written in the past just as I have. His posts are a litany of support for various poor Far Eastern contracts. There isn't a single credible word of support for OT despite this site being required reading for Far Eastern ex Pats and contract pilots worldwide.

Our advice remains - Orient Thai on your CV/resume will be a slur you have to explain away to your peers' satisfaction when you look for a real job. You'll have to do this with the same chances of success as topman faced 11 months ago when trying to bluster his way out of claiming that it was perfectly sensible to clear a 737 to enter a runway and depart with Learjet Mayday traffic on one engine at 2 miles final.

topman's finest hour here:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=110544&perpage=15&pagenumber=1 Go to page two, 3rd post from the bottom of the page and continue as long as necessary for the point to be made. What type of ego is involved to recreate the same effective username after being flattened by working pros from both flightdeck and Heathrow Tower?

Back in September I asked this question: Topman - fantasist or recruiter?

I think you got the answer in topman's reborn persona's final paragraph:

Ive said it b4 and I will say it again, this airline IS a quality airline, exceeding passenger expectations as well as staff. Its a matter of take it or leave it I suppose, but I will say this and no more, be very wary of persons on this forum trying their level best to dissuade persons from trying to even contact OT in the first place, because in my opinion they are just trying to deviate any would be competition for themselves. This is also the case with other airlines as mentioned above. Certain posters are trying trying trying (!) so hard to paint a bad picture so as to turn people off and hence beat off any competition in this part of the world. Thankfully, in the name of greater quality and range, this is not happening. These airlines are still doing very well regarding recruitment of staff and indeed poses some of the very best pilots around the world.


I know, I know - it's just sour grapes on my part because they wouldn't have me.

Regards
Rob:ouch: :ouch:

[411A]

The news about the TriStars, is old news, Hot Dog.
However, the two incidents may well be connected.

Now, I have met the MangDir, and have seen firsthand the miserable state the TriStars were left in, as I personally repossessed one in 1999 for the leasing company.

Sooo, judging from this, I would not be all that impressed with a CV from guys who operated for Orient Thai.
Now, having said this...maybe it takes a special kind, to put up with the BS from the head shed.
Two sides to the coin...so to speak.

[fire wall]

hey Rob,

"Our advice remains - Orient Thai on your CV/resume will be a slur you have to explain away to your peers' satisfaction when you look for a real job."

Ever worked in Thailand Rob?

What qualifies you to comment re the merits of Orient Thai?

Regardless as to their standard of operation, you have no right to make such a statement ..... you can think what you want but the moment you put it down in print then you are opening your self up to a whole world of pain.....I thought you were smarter than that.

[spleener]

Topman,

I apologise if I've hurt your feelings. Equally sorry that the link didn't work - it was grammatically contained within the quote ["] - called I believe cut and paste. However, I have now followed up the PPTowers' link and it does provide a good wheeze!

My previous comments regarding OT have been based on what was related to me first hand from OT Pilots and Flight Engineers. I can comment no further as these professionals have subsequently chosen to leave Orient Thai. I accept that others remain who may be trying to introduce some professionalism to OT. Such persons are not known to me. I wish them well in their endeavours, as the overall environment does not appear to have changed. Orient Thai's reputation remains.

Please try to view comments contrary to you own with an open mind. I remain hopeful that any factual evidence you may have will change my opinion. Importantly, please resist any further declarations of a racial nature.

On a lighter note, check your latest profile - I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "handgliding" as a pastime
;)

[Paladini]

"NEVER" heard this before?


AAAAHHHHH...... short-time Bht100
Long-time Bht 500
Marlboro Light Bht 100
HandGliding .... you do yourself..... me watch? Bht 100

[ironbutt57]

ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh paradini.......you soooo deesGUSting!:} :ok:

[ZFT]

…….and totally inaccurate with your pricing. Marlborough Lights are 65 Baht.

[747Dweller]

Topman's lies usually start about the same time as Orient Thai's recruiting drives. Another "urgent" ad on climbto350.com today.

[PIA747]

Orient Thai is a Joke, they really do test the market forces. Started by offering 757 captains $5000 then $5500 and now finally $6000 in their last advert.

However there seems to be an excess supply of cheap B747 labor.. they are still stuck at $5000. :yuk:

[yyzdub]

Well, to all the OT and Ex- OT guys around, I just saw a listing on Flight International for L1011 Crews (FE, FO, Capt) for a European basing, urgent requirement. So if OT is as bad as everyone is saying, may be worth a shot sending your CV off.

[sanook]

Nothing in Flight! Spin, Spin, spin

[orient]

For anyone left in any doubt as to the terrible state of Orient Thai read the following post which was on anohter thread here on Pprune only a couple of weeks ago:

Orient Thai Airlines is hiring again. Before you pack up and move to Thailand, here are a few things to think about. Conditions are getting worse and the conditions you join under will not be the ones that you work under. There is no contract for foreigners at Orient Thai, and the conditions change at the whim of the owner. There is no legal fallback. If you don't like the way things change, your only option is to leave. I don’t expect you to take my word here on Pprune, but this information will allow you to ask the questions that you need to ask the DFO or Fleet Manager before packing up and moving over there.

First lets talk about the pay. You will be told that you will be paid $6000 / month, minus $500 / month temporary pay reduction - ie $5500. That is true for right now, but another $500 pay cut will happen soon. OX management recently put an advertisement on Climbto350 for pilots at a pay scale of $5000 a month. Once there are enough pilots, your pay will be cut again.

OX has been on 2 previous hiring sprees in the past few months. Both times several pilots were told they had a job there, and at the last minute thier jobs were canceled. Leaving them without a job or a house. The second time was when an airline in the US that was flying 757s and MD80's went under and K Udom thought that these guys would be desperate for jobs. The pilots that were already told that they had jobs with OX (that had quit their other jobs and rented out their houses) were told not to come, and the ad was put in Climbto350 targeting those pilots (only one showed up).

‘Pilot Pay and Working Conditions’ Document: Here are some examples of what the management thinks of the Pilot Pay and Working Conditions Document:
- The probation period does not end in 6 months. People have been ‘let go’ after 18 months. There is always another excuse but the people that go are coincidently the ones that have crew duty or other safety related concerns.
- You will not be paid on “the 4th day of the month”. You might be paid, if you are going to be paid, by the 9th. Every month there seems to be someone who does not get paid and who has to go, cap in hand, to Namphon to ask to be paid. Namphon blames someone else (even though she is in charge of pay) and takes her time fixing it. They generally get it by the end of the month.
- Noone has ever been paid the $100 per day “extra duty” pay for working more then 17 days a month. Everybody has done it in the last few months, but I don’t know of anyone who was paid it – and I asked around.
- “Extended Duty Tail-End Deadhead Option” – first of all, it is not an option. They don’t have enough crews for anyone to refuse it, so you will take it. Secondly, you will have to fight for the money.
- “Definition of Duty Days” – Please amend this section of your document to read “How long you have to fly to get the job done, because they don’t have enough crews to work within the already large limits.”
- Yearly “Bonus Scheme” – has never been paid. I don’t know anyone who was ever paid this money – including people who were there for close to two years, and dozens who were there over a year.
- Working Permits and Taxes – The company may, at its random discretion, organize a work permit for you. Some people got them, some didn’t. If you work there without one, well, it depends on who is bribing who as to what happens to you. Taxes – No pilots have paid any taxes, but you will be asked to give banking details of at least two different banks (one has to be outside Thailand) because the company only declares half your income to the tax office.
- Yes you do get some kind of medical coverage, but not for your spouse. You would have to go to the "HR department”, and there isn't one.
- “Travel Privileges” – I haven’t heard anything recently, but a few months ago there was a big deal where pilots wanted to take their wifes with them on domestic overnights. Dealing with Namphon to buy the standby tickets is so unpleasant that the pilots would just buy the full fare tickets. A Captian tried to buy a ticket for his wife to travel on the same flight as him and they wouldn't sell it to him. They told him that the flight was oversold. He operated that flight 2 hours later and there were 160 people on a 220 seat aircraft. The ticket agents wanted Namphons approval to sell him the full fare ticket (the CP sent out an email to all piolts saying that if we are wanting to buy a full fare ticket on OX for our spouse, do so out of uniform so as not to cuase confusion. This is ‘travel Privileges’ with OX - i.e. to travel on this airline you have to sneak in and pretend that you aren't a pilot). I personally know three pilots who flew their wives to Phuket on other airlines at full fare rather than deal with OX.
- Sick Policy – I have seen 3 pilots that have required longer term sick leave. All 3 only got it after direct intervention of the fleet manager. If left to OX, they would not have got paid. Those managers have since been asked to leave.
- Leave – 21 days sounds good, but know that there is no ‘days before’ or ‘days after’. If you take 10 days, you have to be back after 10 days. No matching it up with days off.
- The only part of this document that you can count on is the bonds – they will deduct these from your pay. When you have fulfilled the obligations for getting them back, it will be up to you to fight for them.


Here are some other things to think about before joining:
- You do not get a roster – A roster is published at (or near) the start of the the month, but is changed on a daily basis and you (might be) phoned the night before to be advised of changes. You can not plan your days off, because your days off will be changed. Not may be changed, WILL be changed. Sometimes with less then a days notice. The only time that you can leave the country is the 21 days annual leave, You will be fighting for 3 days to go down to Phuket.
- You can be fired at any time, even when on leave. There are examples of pilots that went home on leave and were called and told they don’t need to come back – no notice.
- Conditions of employment can and will be changed at the whim of management. For example, in February of this year, when they were short of pilots, it was declared that all leave had to be taken in the year that it was accrued. Some pilots lost 14 days of leave they had accurued in 2004. It was cheaper than hireing another pilot.
- There is continual indirect pressure to get the job done. You, as pilots, know what this can mean regarding maintenance and duty limits.
- Maintenaance: It is getting worse.

The MD 80 fleet has less than 2 crews per aircraft. They are flying 14 hour duty days. 6 sector a day in an aircraft with virtually no air conditioning when it is on the ground. Night flying is split shifts – often back to back.

B757 fleet is better manned than that, but still far under what is necessary for the job. Luckily for the crews, it is very rare that all three aircraft are operating at the same time.

B747 fleet has always been the hardest working crews. They fly unbelievable hours and days. I believe that many are still on unpaid leave, because during slow times, pilots are put on unpaid leave so as to reduce the cost of having pilots. During busy times, these guys fly triple figures month after month, if the flying drops off they are assigned unpaid leave while the remaining pilots continue to fly triple figures. I believe that they are averaging 5 days unpaid leave a month right now.

after confirming all this was true and then some this was my follow up reply:

Examples....i could go on and on!
Maintenance not speaking english and not being qualified on aircraft they are working on, when confronted they soon disappear. Staight up lying to pilots about what work has been done on aircraft, Signing aircraft off having done no rectification work at all. Pilots being induced to fly without MEL items and often with no-go items. Maintenance claiming a complete instument failure after take off into imc was \'normal\' because it had happened twice before! Being rostered over FTL\'s. Short of crews. Being advised of pay cuts a month after they occur. Pay deals entirely different to signed contract. No recourse for pilots leagally within thailand.
No formal rest days. Simply receive rosta on a daily basis so not possible to plan any days off or to use them. Often 2 or 3 rosta changes in a single day. Pilots arriving for work as scheduled to be told their flights are cancelled and \'were you not notified\'? If you ever get a standby day and it\'s not used it becomes your day off. Seemingly random pay deductions at will which are easier to simply accept than attempt to rectify.
No work permits potentially risking chances of employment with any good company if discovered. A thai visa....may happen sometime, if your very lucky. Your not legally in thailand so they don\'t have to declare your income...or pay tax on it.
In short this company is very much illegal and increasingly dangerous. My advice to anyone considering employment here is to think again