Hems Uk

[Tony Chambers]

Im looking for the opinions from HEMS/ASU crews. Do you think having trained personel on the ground on scene providing advanced information about an appropriate landing area whilst you are enroute and to give guidance on arrival would be an advantage?

[jayteeto]

It is always handy to have some advance information, but these things often come at a cost:

1. Money, who will pay for training and how are people classed as current.

2. Empire building. Before you know it, some empire builder will have the rules changed to say that you cannot land unless the site has been cleared by a 'specialist'. (seriously! ask the military people on this thread)

3. The pilot will do his own recce anyway, regardless of the information passed.

4. Non trained personnel would soon start copying the 'expert' and could possibly choose a dangerous site. How could crew know who is on the ground?

My experience has been to treat every site as a new one and do a FULL recce every time.

[ec135driver]

Mmmm? I see your idea but what advantage will it be? It will not absolve the pilot of perfoming a proper site recce prior to making his approach and so he will land where he believes to be appropriate and safe. Also it is often impossible from the ground to see obstacles in the undershoot or departure for a site - obstacles that the pilot can see.

When I get the chance I talk to police officers, fire crews and ambulance staff and just tell them to stand with their back to the wind and not near wires!

If I get to a scene and fine someone standing with their arms up indicating a place to land I often just set it down where they are but if I choose not to land there, I always try and talk to them after about my decision, so that they don't feel they are wasting their time.

[heedm]

How about a beacon and windsock on the ambulance and/or firetruck?

The beacon would make things easier locating the scene. The windsock is a very low tech, low cost piece of kit that gives the pilot useful information. Of course, you run into the risk of requiring this once you start using it.

My experience is that there is nothing to be gained from someone else doing recces for you. I talk to those on scene if I have a chance, most people have the sense to clear a large enough area, but many find it hard to look past the landing area and into the approach.

KISS is the best consideration. (Keep It Simple)

[PANews]

Some years ago - my copy shows 2000 - the Essex Police TV Unit produced an 11 minute video entitled 'Safe Landing' for the Essex air ambulance.

The core of this project was instruction on how 'untrained' emergency services ground personnel could/should handle landing a helicopter into a location.

It included
Landing zone requirements
Potential dangers
Hand signals to the pilot
public control and safety

All pretty basic and, it would seem, suitable for wide distribution to everyone ever likely to be placed in that position. Its short length might result in such as the emergency services watching it from time to time.... well, maybe!

There was a price for copies [between £10 and £40 depending on the number of copies] so I am not sure how wide the circulation was eventually or whether it is now available on CD.

I will enquire next week!

[PANews]

Ah you waited.....

I contacted the Essex Police producers this morning.

Safe Landing was only made on VHS & has not been updated to DVD/CD although all the work they now do is on DVD. That suggests the original would suffer from not having Worldwide compatability. I believe it will still be available.

The film was sold in bulk to Lancashire, Cambridgeshire & West Yorkshire Constabulary’s as well as being used in Essex.

Since making the film the Air Ambulance and police changed their craft to EC-135s which tends to make the BO105 subject a bit old hat.

Essex police have made a flight safety film about the newer aircraft.

The DVD is a 13-minute feature which looks at what an EC-135 can offer (at the time the police craft was being role equipped so it is mainly based on the air ambulance again), dos & don’ts when flying, safe approach & exiting of the aircraft, onboard safety conditions & what to do in an emergency. The film is split into chapters & they have also used 3D animation’s to help show what was difficult to film.

This is based on their information, I have not yet seen the DVD.

Hope that helps.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

As an ex fire officer on the ground receiving the A/A, what we found was that the ariving unit would do his own recay where we could we would run out hose lines if we had them spare to facilitate some form of fire cover for the ariving aircraft but in experiece that we had with the hems unit, we did not have the time or the man power to be able to assist greatly in any form of help to the unit and most of the time the pilot made his own plan.

You will find also that although fire service and other units would love to be able to offer assistance to the ariving aircraft manpower is so tight these days, that they just do not have the people there to give up to additional tasks.

likewise in the earliar thread which service should provide the manpower and who would pay the bill. as we are all aware that the air ambulance is the best form of support for ground crews but the bean counters dont see it that way and would throw up all sorts of arguments / regulations etc that may be detramental to what the idea of this discusion is all about.

It is usefull for the ground crews to have a full understanding of Helicopter ops as they work with them a lot but from there stop

nice idea in principal but leave to the commader of the aircraft would be the best plan. that way it stops the bean counters screwing things up.


Sincerely


Bravo 99 (AJB)

[ppheli]

Most US EMS units have LZ info/requirements on their website, but this information is frequently lacking in European operator websites. Wonder why?

And if Essex Police did produce a video, why did it not get some commercial sponsorship and it be distributed via the Home Office to all forces? Charging for safety information - go figure! Hmm, who would sue who for negligence....?

Yes, ultimately it is the pilot's decision whether/not to land, but people on the ground can make it so much easier if the information was readily available - eg I would hope all police/fire ground units have that training and have the checklist immediately available. All air units will obviously build up a lengthening list of pads they have used, so they can re-use when needed, but in the police/EMS world there will always be a demand where you don't have a site....

[pilotwolf]

For poltical reasons we rarely see any air suppport (medical) here in Surrey... :(

But when I was in Sussex I used to try and pass any info such as wires or other hazards to the ASU - sensible compromise as the local, observed risks are notified to pilot but no risks added due the suggestion of possibly unsafe sites.

Even when based on a pilots perspective from the ground things look different from the air...

Having said that think there should be some basic helicopter awareness training given to anyone - police, ambulance, fire, etc - who may encounter helicopters, eg. approaching aircraft, dangers, etc.

PW

[ppheli]

pilotwolf - surely Sussex is a different matter - the police and ambulance units are the same helicopter with the same pilot?

And what's the politics in Surrey? About the last county in England without EMS coverage from the air, and even if it is the most wooded county in England, it sure isn't a poor county...

[pilotwolf]

ppheli yes Sussex is a joint operation but they still need to land... or did I miss what you were getting at? Police ground units won't necesssarily be at all medical calls.

And you pretty much summed up the politics yourself! There was some rumour about similar joint police/ambulance outfit but nothing seems to have come from it. Ambulance service seems to have its own high level reasons for not using air support - can only be requested via top level duty manager...

There is a very strong reluctance to use (London) HEMS as if the patient is taken back to the London then the local hospital is, (apparently) cross charged and they don't like that.

Also heard a comment in HQ a while back "..why do we need a helicopter - we can always use Sussex/Kent/Berks/HEMS if we get desperate.." :(

PW

[Helinut]

The "best available" evidence i.e. studies done by the health establishment, suggests that the benefit of HEMS ops are marginal. Ambulance drivers or ex ambulance drivers (who usually figure large in the managment of ambulance trusts) usually see the HEMS as a threat to them too.

The Surrey situation is worse even than other trusts. If the Berks HEMS is used in Berks, then it is paid for by charity (except for the paramedics). If a HEMS is used in Surrey, then the Surrey Ambulance outfit gest charged for the FULL cost of the flight.

One of the paradoxes of fund raising for HEMS seems to be that the richer areas have more difficulty in fund-raising

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

Helinut seems to have hit the nail on the head as i am based in blackpool the feed back from the A/A there is that the mobilizing / chap appears to be anti the unit and trys hard when it is turned out to try to get it to be stode down before reaching the incident.

(for those close to the hub there. this is speculation from feed back not hands on) just to keep things politically correct.

which ever way. from my experiance the units provide rapide insersion of quility people where needed and gets the injured pax into A&E in the golden hour usualy training and awareness for the crews on the ground can only be a good thing but to go further would as previous course issues.

Regards

Bravo 99 (AJB)

[pilotwolf]

Helinut guess you ve probably got some inside info but my understanding was that it was only the hospital trusts that charged for the treatment of another authority's patient.

It may have changed but when I spoke to the London HEMS crew last year they said they never billed anyone and the cross border operation was treated the same as a request for a normal ambulance...

Not personally convinced by the 'papers' which show little benefit to patients.. If it takes me 30 mins to carry a patient back to the road and then 15 mins to the A & E dept and only a total of 15 mins by air how can that not benefit the patient? My cynical side says the 'papers' were probably commisioned by those who would be funding the unit and like all statisics can be made to show what you want to show! ;)

And how do countries like the US and Australia justify the large numbers of ASU/HEMS?

I do remember there was some older memebers of staff in Sussex who saw the ASU as pointless... same guys who didn't see the need for oxygen or spinal care - "..cos we never bothered with that in the old days.." :(

PW