Multi Traning, Baron too much?

[spudskier]

I have a chance to do my multi training in a Piper Seminole or a Beech Baron. Is the Baron too much airplane for a new multi student?

I consider myself a good pilot, well trained by a university, I do have my high performance sign-off, but is the baron at 300hp/side too much airplane for a first multi?

[Hotel Mode]

If its the same school, fly the cheapest, nobody in the airlines knows the difference.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Yup, 600bhp ain't necessary and its surely going to cost more?

WWW

[Tinstaafl]

No, the Baron won't be 'too much' to train on BUT it's not worth the extra cost. You won't gain anything extra for doing your initial multi in it.

Use whatever a/c is cheapest then, if you're keen to fly a Baron, get checked out in it. That will normally be cheaper overall.

[Mr Levitator]

Ok, so cost is high on the priority list. But what about the higher speeds, more complex systems and higher level of awareness etc required to fly a Baron. The Seminole puttles along with systems like a warrior in duplicate. If you are going to spend so much money, why skimp at this stage. When you come fresh out of the IR a check out on the Seminole would be easier, lower speeds, less complex etc. A check out on the Baron would be hard, squeezing checks in and having to do things much faster than all your training.

Just my thoughts, but if you really want to become the best you can to secure that first job, why skimp for the sake of 50 quid an hour when in the future your'll earn that much a minute!!

regards

Mr L.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

£50 a minute eh? Hmmmmmmm :hmm:

Sure - why not wait for the windiest roughest day of the year and take your IRT then - that will surely allow you to demonstrate your above average skills. Why not fly the whole route at Vne thus proving how far ahead of the aircraft you are?

15 odd hours plus test hire at a £50 premium sounds like a good way to blow a grand for an ego boost. There are cheaper and easier ways my friend :E

Personally I think a nice slow simple Beech Duchess is about the best platform to tackle an IR on. Dead boring, dead simple, dead slow. Dead easy to fly - allowing you to cope under pressure.


Cheers

WWW

[Mr Levitator]

So what happens when you are supposedly qualified and you can "cope" with a Duchess and then get in a Baron?? Appart from not impressing the instructor checking you out, what is that doing for your confidence. If I were taking the Multi Rating, I would not want to merely pass and get the qualification, but to pass knowing that I really am capable of flying a more high perfomance machine rather than a "dead boring, dead simple, dead slow, dead easy" platform. Having said all that, there is nothing wrong in doing your MECR on a Duchess or Seminole.

And on the subject of taking the IR on a windy day, If the weather is within limits for test and you have experienced the conditions before (important!!) why not take the IR. If you are choosing your day for the IR in this manner, what does it say about your confidence in your ablility to fly IFR, and are you really ready for test?? Its like choosing your hand of cards before you play.

Mr L.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmmm.

The IRT is a game. Your aim is to win the game and follow its little rules. You can make the game easier or harder for yourself in many ways. I suggest it is nothing more than gamesmanship to give yourself every advantage and make things as easy as possible for yourself on the day.

A light twin is a light twin. I've never heard of anyone being wowed by a Baron and there are very few in GA service. An Aztruck might be a more useful type to train and have on your license.

Cheers

WWW

[lotusbridger]

I took my FAA commercial and multi (with IR) in the same day.

The weather deteriorated, cloudbase was 1200 feet initially ashore and thunderstorms developed by the time I got to instrument stuff in the Seminole.

Foggles, who needed them, the only time saw anything outside was when a lightening flash went off.

The examiner brought me in for a VOR (on the field) approach, accepted the clearance from ATC after he had routed us through the radial at 60 degrees and queried why I called a missed approach later at 1600' over the airfield with everything hanging out, power off, maximum pitch down and zero on the VSI;

To land on the runway I would had to have removed the wings!

2nd approach was more managable and we broke out to see the runway in front and slightly to the right.

Max crosswind and the wrong engine out on the ILS was the last challenge. I wasn't proud of that landing during the last foot.

Debrief. The examiner said he would not be happy being up there in the same airspace as me flying on instruments (we WERE the only people mad enough to be there :E ) and then promptly signed me a pass for both checkrides and congratulated me.

MORAL
It is probably more important to choose a school that lets you fly in real instrument weather than to learn in a more complex aircraft.


.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I don't know about the FAA but the UK CAAFU can and will fail you for making the decision to go/continue in unsuitable weather. Do pay your IRT test fee, Do not collect an IR.

Cheers

WWW

[lotusbridger]

I don't think the weather at the time I took my test was excessive or unreasonable, just a bit tougher than during most of the training I had done. Winds, ceilings, visibility, gusts were all above minimums. The sky was just a bit emptier, no training traffic only commercial operations like the C5 Galaxy I followed in on one landing.

I had had this examiner for my private and, like the examiner for my initial IR, he was interested in increasing my workload just when I appreciated it the least.

But, point taken, you are PIC for the flight.:D

[rodquiman]

Just to tell you that Baron was my first multi and I was just 140 hours total. You won't need more than a couple of hours to fly it properly, it's really easy to fly and to land, even with one engine out. Great aircraft.

[Tinstaafl]

To address the points raised by Mr. Levitator:

1. Speed: Duchess ~150-160kts. Baron typically 175 to 185. That's not really worth paying the extra for. Approach speed isn't significantly different. If you really want to think faster in the approach then fly the Duchess using Cat B approach speeds.

2. Systems:

How is the Baron more complicated? Fuel x-feed works the same way. Cont. IO-520s are injected but apart from hot starts & the Cont. fuel flow needle allowing an easy leaning facility there's no difference in operation. In fact the carburetted Lyc O-360s might require more technique due to carby ice considerations.

Both a/c have retractable gear. Big deal. Select up or down as required. Baron has a hand crank for emergency extension, Duchess needs a special tool (if your arms aren't long enough to reach the floor in front of your seat). Still not a significant difference.

Both a/c have single tanks / wing (ignoring any optional aux. that might be fitted to the Baron. No guarantee that the training a/c has them). If system complexity is such an overriding consideration go learn in a C310 with nacelle tanks.

Electrical system operation is arguably more complicated in the Duchess. It has a split avionics bus. Barons normally don't.

So....still not worth the extra $$$.

3. Weight/performance consideration: The Duchess is a 4 seater operated 2-up. The Baron is nominally a 6 seater operating 2-up ie a lesser proportion of it's full ability. That would leave a greater comparitive performance reserve for single engine ops. The lesser performance reserve of the Duchess is a 'good thing' for training.

Again........no advantage to the Baron.


4. Handling. The Duchess IS lighter than the Baron. No argument there. That means it's more subject to altitude/speed deviations from turbulance compared to the heavier Baron. I'd argue that's not necessarily a bad thing for a student trying to develop a good scan technique. Barons fly like they're on rails compared to a Duchess.



The Baron has a bit more inertia so & is capable of slightly more speed. Doesn't take more than a couple of hours to get used to so why waste your money using it through the whole course?


About the only argument I can see that would support using the Baron is one where a job is on the horizon that requires Baron experience.

[silverknapper]

Would any pilots currently earning £50 a minute please raise their hand.

[Mooneyboy]

I have heard of a person trying doing there ppl (FAA) on a twin. Can this happen? Also am I right in saying you need 70 P1 hours for a multiengine rating for the JAA licenses.

Are any these true?

Mooneyboy:confused:

[BillieBob]

JAR-FCL1 allows for the PPL Skill Test to be taken on either a single-engine or a multi-engine aeroplane, although there is no provision for asymmetric exercises in the Skill Test Schedule.

There is a requirement for 70hrs experience as pilot-in-command prior to the issue of a MEP Class Rating, which also applies to a PPL gained on a MEP aeroplane. It would, therefore, be necessary to complete a minimum of 95 hours training (25 dual and 70 solo) prior to issue of the PPL with MEP rating. Furthermore, a Registered Facility cannot provide training for the MEP Class Rating and so a PPL on a multi-engine aeroplane could only be completed at an approved FTO.

Is it possible to do a PPL on a multi-engine aeroplane? - Yes; Is it practical? - No.

[Mooneyboy]

Thanks for the clarification Billiebob. The reason why I asked was, I wanted to get a multiengine rating straight after the ppl but then heard indirectly of the 70hrs PIC. I left it but it's nice to hear a confirmation from someone who seems to know what they're talking about. I will just have to wait and build up more hours on singles.

Mooneyboy