Agusta A109

[PUP]

Can anyone tell me how many of the new AA-sponsored Air Ambulance 109s are in service now and where they're based? Is it Sloane that runs them?

[JWP]

One 109 Power at White Waltham and operated by Sloane Helicopters.

[Mr.Proach]

Just read in the Bun that a 109 power has crashed somewhere near a school. Pilot was "Heroic". Well done Steve, must have been all those practice sessions in a floppy. Glad you're all OK, Blue for handling, red for site selection, remember the S's next time bloke.

P.S.
a form 5 is not a witch hunt, no, not at all, its just an investigation.

[This message has been edited by Mr.Proach (edited 19 June 2000).]

[EESDL]

Whilst brunching at Waltham, waiting for a client, I heard the pilots Mayday over the club tannmoy. The crew may like to know that the WLAC ARV, full of concerned groundcrew, made a very impressive response to his brief Mayday call. As they sped off to the threshold of the RW in use, they weren't to know that the school was off-airfield:-)
Great news to hear that all aboard escaped. Any news about the cause....Sloane informant suggests FADEC problems..this is not the first Power to crash in such circumstances.

[flyerh]

wrong what happened was,it had just come out of maintanance and they had replaced the swashplate scissors the wrong way around which overloaded the bolt,which snapped causing pitch control to be impossible.
They also found that the previous crash with Pete Barnes was caused by the same mistake.
All 109's are now being checked and both engineers at Sloane have been suspended nothing wrong with the Power.

[EESDL]

Scarey!! but thanks for the explaination.

[whatsarunway]

an ex vietnam pilot once told me if u have an rngine failure to aim for a school- - the kids will cushion the landing!!!

[WhoNeedsRunways]

I'll be looking out for the accident report on this one - if, as suggested, the scissors link broke, then they're either extremely lucky or the pilot was having a really good day . . .

[Stinger]

... take care not leap to simplistic, and possibly premature, conclusions on this one (flyerh - & eesdl). I agree with Whoneedswings - the accident report will make very interesting reading when it is finally released. Hopefully it will be sooner rather than later, as it is necessarily of some interest to all you Power drivers.

[MightyGem]

Good effort Steve, in what must have been a very hairy few minuets.

If flyhr is right then it would appear that the engineers could carry the can for this. But what about the guy who designed a component that could be fitted the wrong way round?? We all know that it will happen eventually.

[flyerh]

As I am not prone to jumping to conclusions, am not a power driver and the fact that Agusta have already by insistence of the AAIB informed all Power operators throughout the world of this problem, you can judge for yourselves.

Both accidents did not take minutes to meeting the hard stuff. If they had, the consequenses could have been very different.

As the scissor link holds the pitch change links in the correct place and at the correct loading angle, if several attemps to pull pitch had been made the upright angle would have decreased causing the pitch links to depart company with the blades.

As for fitting the part the wrong way around, both accidents happened within two hours of the parts being fitted by the same company and, so far, none of the other 120 Powers thoughout the world have crashed.

Jumping to conclusions would be blaming the FADEC!

[Waynekerr]

Steve well done and hope your okay. Fred sends his regards from the USA.

Call in sometime and how's the mil contract going, it will be your baby soon!

[WhoNeedsRunways]

Stinger :

I'm of the opinion that this accident, IF ( that's an IF in BIG LETTERS ) the accident report shows mis-rigging of the scissors link, then it's really important for every helicopter pilot. One more really really important bit to check before I wind my Robbie up ( don't laugh ) next time . . .

[skeeterdriver]

Thanks all for the thought on the 109 incident - fraid to say you are all right the scissor link was installed the wrong way round the witch hunt goes on.

Stand by for more on this the third accident from possibly the same engineering error!!!!

[flyerh]

They thought that, in the Pete Barnes accident, the passenger hit the overhead switches with his headset that knocked out the buzz bars lol.

Now we know the real reason. You fly in the cruise at 85% torque and flat pitch in a millisecond and try and not hit the top of your headset on the overhead console.
Follow that with a snap turn in cloud at night and you have lost all your instruments and light.

Well done Pete!
And in both incidents, well done the 109 Power - everybody walked away. :ok:

[flyerh]

The master and gen buz bars on inspection are on the passenger side with a sprung loaded bar that can switch off all three at the same time (now being modified).
The headsets in use at the time had thick pads across the top of the head very close to these switches but under normal circumstances not a factor.
Fly along at cruise torque with not so tight seat belts and slam the collective down (not recommended). Doesn't take too much negative G to lift you a couple of inches out of your seat. (Done it in my wild and crazy days in a BO 105, settled down now though).

Before the real reason came to light, they thought the passenger bent foreward, leaned back and switched everything off causing a sudden loss of SAS and loss of instruments. Only thing they could come up with at the time, even though he would have had to lift his bum at the same time. Flat pitching would lift your bum just enough to reach those switches and that is what happens when that part breaks!

[CDP]

It has been officially confirmed that the scissor link was put on the wrong way round with the bolt shearing on both accidents.
Amazing that the accident investigators were so convinced it was electrics etc they didnt bother to check the head for any discrepancies especially as link changes were made just prior to flight.

FlyerH seems to have a handle on what happened.

[212man]

I must be missing something here; does installing the bits mentioned incorrectly, not affect the handling or collective behaviour? Is the first sign of the problem when the bolts fail? With the blade pitch uncontrolled, do you not get horrendous vibrations and loss of control?

I only ask, because I 'heard' of a B212 that had a 'rotating scissors assembly drive bolt' (say that after a few pints!) fail in flight, resulting in loss of pitch control on one blade. The a/c practically destroyed itself in the subsequent descent and only stopped (destroying itself) when it hit the water.

Lots of interesting points seem to be raised here. Did the AAIB really not look at the head?

Excellent job done by both pilots though, well done.

------------------
Another day in paradise

[This message has been edited by 212man (edited 01 July 2000).]

[4Rvibes]

All things being equal, if a component CAN be fitted back-to-front, inside-out or upside-down it WILL be at some time or other.

Unfortunately today, like non-North-Sea helo pilots, engineers work long hours under extreme pressure to achieve a result the we were well rewarded for ten years ago.

Engineering in a competetive marketplace is regarded as an expensive necessity especially since the advent of the JAR regs.

If, as alleged, the rotating scissors failed due to incorrect fitment the reasons for that way of fitting MUST be correctly established by the AAIB.

Human factors must be included in the report.In any pilot error report the commander's flying experience 1. In total 2. In the last 90 days and 3.The last 28 days is expressed. The licensed engineers' previous time on duty is never released, so in theory the concerned personnel could have been on shift for a ridiculous amount of time before making a mistake.

All in all some poor minimum wage geezer in Italy may have painted ALL the scissors in a certain batch "THIS WAY OUT" on the wrong side os the scissors for all we know. Like pilot based accidets there is usually more than one cause ( and often many) that contribute to an incident.

Let's be thankful there have been no injuries in both these accidents.

[This message has been edited by 4Rvibes (edited 02 July 2000).]

[Cornish Jack]

Yet another 'Murphy' in the aviation game. In the 60's when the Whirlwind had been in service, in various marks, for many years, one of our instructors found that as the roror was engaged the beast started to shake itself to pieces. Hasty shut-down and much head shaking as to reasons. Nothing immediately obvious and it took much investigation and some sharp sighted-ness on someone's part to spot that the tail rotor was fitted the wrong way round !! Nobody had previously realised that it was a possibility. Thereafter, the pre flight required that the tail rotor be positioned in line with the pylon and a check that they matched aerodynamically.
Murphy is still there and waiting to indulge his/her warped sense of humour. :) :)

[212man]

The difference here seems to be that there is no evidence of the mistake until the bolt fails, is this true?

To repeat my earlier question, does losing pitch control of one blade not result in loss of control and eye ball mashing vibrations?


------------------
Another day in paradise

[alouette]

Does anybody in the industry have experince on the A-109Power in the EMS configuration. I need informations regarding high altitude operations. Any comments are greatly appreciated.

[Marco]

Sloane Helicopters at
www.sloanehelicopters.com (http://www.sloanehelicopters.com) for details and ask for Merrick Forsyth who should be able to help.

[Earpiece]

I've heard that there was a very recent tragic accident in Greece with an Agusta 109 Power in the EMS role. Five fatal - does anyone know if this true and if so why?

"trying to keep an ear to the ground"

[Special 25]

I believe this accident involved a standard A109 ie. not the newer 'Power' but can't be sure. It was flown by Italian crew from Helitalia who operate EMS on contract for the Greek authorities and it went down in the early evening in some of the worst storms ever seen in Greece.

I have read that there were 5 people on board including a heart attack patient and a nurse but am unsure whether it was single-pilot. Either way, the crew were reportedly having trouble with the weather conditions before the aircraft was lost on Radar.

I obviously should not be jumping to conclusions so soon, but I would not be too surprised if the horrendous conditions together with the pressure put on crews to get Medevac work done whatever the circumstances, were found to be the primary factors in this accident.

In conclusion, another tragic accident and as always, lessons to be learned by us all.

[JoePilot]

I understand there is huge dissapointment from Power customers ... 'overengined' cracking of MAJOR components (tail boom, bulk head), less than promised range...

Can this be true?

What is their reliability rating? any good?

They look sexy and go fast tho' ....

[swerve]

Where do you get all your rubish from JOEPILOT!!! how can a helicopter be overengined - surely that is what all real pilots have been crying out for since we started operating helicopters seriously - if not from the begining, never been in that situation where some real power would get you past the worry stage of what if a "donkey" stops now? - maybe the transmision could be made a little more sustantantial for normal ops but would do me fine if I was in dire straights. I,ve been operating the Power now for 2 years and never heard of cracks in the tail etc so again check your source. the Power is an Awesome machine well up to the job required, there will always be improvements to be made in any aircraft, but must say this beast is the best I've ever flown in 20 years!!! so don't let the badmouthers of this world bluff you into thinking the worst

[This message has been edited by swerve (edited 21 January 2001).]

[JoePilot]

Oh ok ... put me down for two!

[Earpiece]

Swerve

If you feel like that why don't you answer Alouette's initial question?

Why have I heard about the cracks at the back end and alarming accidents if there are no grounds? Have you looked at your A109 Power during your two years and who clears your Check A ability? How often does the back end need inspecting between the standard 50 or 100 hour inspections?

Hopefully for Joe Public (not Joe Pilot) you do not fly PT flights if you haven't noticed or been advised of anything before!

"back to keeping an ear to the ground"

[swerve]

Earpiece

I usually I have great respect for your clippings/info, generally good stuff well worth reading - however on this one like most miss-informed people you have made 2+2=6

There are no cracks to major components (tail boom bulkhead)as initialy offered by joepilot ( who comes across to me as a pure speculator for cheap gossip) the previous accidents have been due to scissor links fitted the wrong way round, due to arguable reasons, but I believe Agusta were less than clean with their maintenance manuals - we wait to see. the (potential)cracks that I believe you may be hearing about are to the tail rotor blades which needs checking every 10hrs and 25hrs untill replacements are sourced by Augusta, I trully know of no other cracking - and fly PT daily, with no life more valuable than mine !! Trust me
Initial question has been answered by other means - just so you don't think I'm avoiding that question aswell

[This message has been edited by swerve (edited 24 January 2001).]

[Earpiece]

Swerve
After that reply I can only watch and listen out. Good enough so keep flying safely.

"keeping an ear to the ground"

[4Rvibes]

If I was a EMS operator the first thing I would notice about the A109P is that has bloody WHEELS!

What the hell use are those things when deciding where to land? The 109 might be sleek and fast but if the paramedics have to run two miles to the incident, what's the point?

A waterlogged Helitech 99 proves my point.

[eurocopter]

Mr Hamlyn might not agree with the "tail booms do no crack" quote!
What happened to the initial claim of Full pax full fuel in VIP role? From what I hear it does not come close.

[spinwing]

Latest rumour is that the Agusta Koala has been grouned worldwide ! ....anybody have any clues as to why??? :confused: :confused:







=================================

This thread is now a merger of various Agusta threads.

See also:

Dyfed-Powis Police ASU buys Agusta (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82587)

Heliport

[Pac Rotors]

Spinwing

Got a copy of the AD in front of me. Looks like they found some major cracks in the tailrotor blade. Careflight had been working with CASA once they became aware of it but the crack got worse and now Careflight decided to ground their machine and CASA have basically grounded the other LInfox machine as well.

Not sure what the FAA will do but according to my sources the machine could be down for some time until Agusta sort out the problem.

Dont you just love playing with the first of type.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Pac Rotors Hi, good morning

In a case such as this and the obvious non use untill sorted, do Heli manufacturers offer replacement birds or do they offer a cash compensation to the owner/user, or is it down to the owner/user to scream loud and hard ?

[Pac Rotors]

Not sure what the manufacturers will do in a case like this. I doubt they will appreciate the bad publicity they get from a brand new machine going tits up only a month after going into service. Not sure what is happening with the Koalas based in the US and Europe.

Many manufacturers I think, would be hard pressed coughing up monetary type payments in a situation like this. Its not like they can give them a replacement machine because in OZ all of them are grounded.

Time will tell. If I hear anymore from my contacts will post it here.

[widgeon]

It is actually a little strange , most manufacturers issue AD's and then the customer has to purchase the replacement parts ( CHeck out the last paragraph of most US Ad's it gives financial impact of AD ) , If it is in the warranty period I guess most manufacturers would pay for the parts at least.

[Flight Safety]

As widgeon said, the financial impact of an AD is calculated by the FAA, including parts and labor. Who pays for these 2 costs is worked out by the manufacture (with some input from the customers). Since the Koala is a new machine, they should all be under warranty.

I also think that Augusta needs to deal with this problem fairly quickly, since there's usually a large number of sales when a new model is introduced, and future sales could be hurt without an effective response.

[Pac Rotors]

Latest update on the downunder Koala scenario is apparenytly Agusta have told Careflight that they should change the tail rotor blades every five hours??? :eek:

Now if the program stays as busy as it has been that means every night, that is if the machine doesnt have any jobs, the night crew would have to change the tail rotor blades.

Needless to say Careflight had some very colourful suggestions on what they thought of that idea.

So much for the good ole customer support. By the way Agusta have, from what I understand, not recognised the AD and grounding from here, and as it stands the only two grounded are the ones in Australia. Time will tell if the same problem surfaces in the US and Europe.

[spinwing]

Very interesting ...I now also have a copy of the AD in front of me.... what I find interesting is that the same P/N T/R is also fitted to the A109 and it also is subject to a crack test AD for that a/c BUT would seem not to be subect to the effective grounding and the forwarding of blades to Agusta for inspection ??? curiouser and curiouser !!! :rolleyes: :confused:

[flipflop]

In the UK there is a 10 hr visual and a 25 hr diapenetrant inspection. As I am about to pick up a new koala very soon I would appreciate as much info as you guys can put on this thread.
Thanks

[John Eacott]

It would seem that Agusta may have been aware of the problem at least a year ago. Company (Agusta) pilot spoke about the possibility of replacing the T/R blades to a friend of mine, when he was at the factory for endorsement training.

[widgeon]

Are the TR blades bonded metal on the Agusta's ( I assume so as last AD called for LPI) . I thought most manufacturers had moved to composite blades specifically as they have a much slower crack propagation rate and a soft failure mode. Are the main rotor blades still metal as well ?.

[John Eacott]

The TR blades are still metal, MRB's are composite construction.

[Jetscream 32]

Hi,

If anyone hear's of any cheap 109E Powers for sale, would they be kind enough to mail, s/n less than 40 circa $ 3 mill USD.

Will travel worldwide, many thanks.

Nick

:) :) :) <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Skycop]

I know where there is a police one, needing some paintwork though....

[widgeon]

Enquiring minds need to know , what happened after S/N 40 ?.

[Jetscream 32]

Widgeon,

After s/n 40 they seem to sell for crazy money?

:) :) :) :)

[Robbo Jock]

Which begs the question: what was wrong with them before s/n 40? <img src="smile.gif" border="0">


(edited 'cos I forgot the smiley <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )

[ 09 January 2002: Message edited by: Robbo Jock ]</p>

[twistgrip]

Anyone fly the A109 Power?

Would appreciate the general impression and opionion on operating from a base 6,000' AMSL in pretty rugged terrain.

[Vfrpilotpb]

Twistgrip,

A pal of mine is just about to start using the A109 every day, I will see how far he is along with this and if he is happy I will E you his tel/num, he is highly experienced, and I am certain that he would help you.

[twistgrip]

vfr - Many thanks......

[matador]

The base where I work we share with one of those grats machines. They do EMS with 5 POB plus the patient. They are doing quite well, plenty of power even thoug the place is quite hot in Summer, the only problem seems to be too much power for the structure, they just had to change the tail boom for cracks after 700 hours.. .I think is great, they mount P&W engines.Good luck and go for it.

[tecpilot]

Structur load seems to be a problem on the Power. There are some other examples for cracks on A 109 Power tail boom. Sometimes below 100 hours. Needs a lot of bulbs for pos lights. May be a vibration problem. But very powerfull, fast and exciting a/c.

[eden]

Went to Helitech in 98 and flew the power there with a 3/4 fuel load 5 pob and came to a hover at 1000' agl (only just outside ground effect) pulled back an engine and it didn't move, a slight Nr decrease which recovered v.swiftly, there was a comfortable amount of spare power to fly away without any trouble.

No info on High DA ops - sorry

Sloane Helicopters have a few pilots who have some experience on this beastie!

eden (energy driven eccentric nirvana)

[flipflop]

Not sure whether or not the twin is a requirement but if not, you may want to look at the A119 Koala. I fly one and so far am very impressed and for half the cost of a power may be worth a look.

[RotorHorn]

First post - and something I almost know something about!!. .. .My old instructore is an IR rated ATPL and flies the A109 Power.. .. .From what I remember him saying, its not the power but the MAUW that's a limiting factor. . .. .With 3 POB and full fuel, your about at Max weight. Any more PAX than that, and you have to start emptying fuel. With 7 POB, you can only take on enough fuel to last about an hour and a bit before you start illuminating those pretty little yellow warning captions. . .. .I have heard of at least one company who have since got shut of their Power and bought a Bell 430 instead - just so they don't have to worry about fuel take on with 7 pob.. .. .Sloane's are definately the ones to talk to get the facts though.... .. .Lurvely machine though eh?

[Have a Chat]

A private business operator in Melbourne Australia currently utilizes A109 power day to day. I believe it is the highest time A109 operating in the world! I have seen the logo Linfox on the aircraft it you can track it down I’m sure they will be a wealth of help.

[twistgrip]

Many thanks everyone.

[John Eacott]

Have a,. .. .Linfox have an Agusta A119 Koala, VH-FOX, not a 109E. There are no Powers in Australia (yet?).

[flygunz]

Any koala drivers out there had any experiences of low freq vibs at varying airspeeds. If so, would appreciate any feedback as to causes.

Thanks

[Heli-Ops]

Talk to Careflight in Sydney, Australia. They had major problems with the tail rotor of their aircraft and actually self imposed a grounding of it last year until Agusta sorted it out. Aparently they had to change the tail rotor blades. let me know if you want contact details for them.

Heli Ops

[Driptray]

Send me an email, and we can talk about your problems.

Driptray

[Heli-Ops]

MK is dat u. :D

[flygunz]

Thanks, i would appreciate the careflight address. the tail rotor issue was dealt with by new composite t/r blades which i have fitted. I would be suprised if they were producing a low freq vibe but concious of history.
At the moment koalas are on a 10 hr inspection for the FCU, its conceivable that may be the cause.
Driptray-email address on its way.
Thanks so far.
MK, not me.

[mickinst]

Flygunz,

Would appreciate the opprtunity to help if required. Pls email me with a more detailed description of the fault if you could. i.e any fluctuating indications accompanying the low freq vibe? etc.

Mickinst

[StevieTerrier]

Can any of you knowledgeable people out there give me a potted history of the 109 lineage regarding model types and relevant merits of same? Just a brief "109C - can carry 4 pax but no fuel, replaced by 109Cplus GT turbo etc " would be great.

Cheers!

[Straight Up]

This table may help.....

http://www.sloanehelicopters.com/a109comp.htm


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Stinger]

It is always an interesting execise to compare these kinds of statistics, and they often vary between the sales agent and the operator. I would say treat the above as generally fairly optimistic.

You will also have to recalculate some of the figures due to minor errors in the table - for e.g. all 109s (prior to the E model) have a basic fuel capacity of 420kgs (give or take a kg or 2). The II and the C have the option of an aux tank of capacity 120kgs, giving a total of 540 kgs on these aircraft - so delete any reference to 566 or 581kgs of fuel.

Not sure what a 'block speed' is in helicopters - but 145, possibly 150kts is balls to the wall for any 109, and is weight/conditions dependent. I would not plan any faster than 140 cruise.

So, take the 109C for example - I would offer the following figures: (with the table figures in brackets)

Max Gross: (2720) 2720 kgs
Empty Weight: (1900) 1950 would be nearer the average, so:
Useful Load: (820) 770 kgs
Max fuel weight: (581) 540 kgs - with aux tank
Payload with full fuel: (239) 230 - pilot + 1.5 pax
Fuel consuption: (185) 200 !! - you might get a kilo or 2 less at altitude - but don't bet your granny on it.
So, endurance with full fuel: (2:45) 2:00 hours only, which gives a range of 290 nm - at 145kts (not 407 nm). Naturally it does depend slightly on your calculation of 'VFR reserves'. I also have a personal in-flight minimum of 50kgs a side.

The 'A' model works out at around 1:45 endurance (no aux tank) for a range of 250nm, with pilot +3. A+ is 2:15 hours, 330nm, pilot +1. The 109E Power will fly for 2:45, 415nm with pilot +1. A Power in the real world weighs nearer 2000kgs than the 1870 in the table.

Notwithstanding the above, there is no better helicopter, if you need to move a small number of people, up to 200nm, in the shortest time, resonable comfort, any weather day or night - AND it is the best looking machine in the air.

[John Eacott]

Stinger's summary is fairly right, but I would query the fuel burn. 200lt/hr maybe, but not 200kg/hr. I consistently returned 135-140kg/hr fuel burn on a 109AII that I have operated for the past 8 years, which reduced to 130kg/hr at altitude (8000ft +) on long trips. Normal cruise was 135TAS, cruise Tq 90%. Our empty weight of a heavy corporate ship with air con., is 1830kg, mauw 2600kg. With the boot tank full (trick to overfill, turn on the boost pumps whilst filling the boot tank, the TMLF will pump fuel back into the mains & gain about 20kg per side. Don't undo the main tank fuel caps, though, as the fuel level will be up above the fill point!) the pax weight available is 110kg, allowing for an 80kg pilot. Watch the aft cg, though.......

I have found that the C model, with it's recalibrated Tq gauge, seems to encourage a higher cruise Tq, with a higher cruise TAS & fuel burn.

Whilst a fun little rocket ship, don't plan on long trips if you're over 5' 11", unless you are into self inflicted pain & mutilation :rolleyes:

[StevieTerrier]

Thanks very much guys - very useful information. Pretty much confirms what I heard - fast, pretty but don't plan on taking too many people too far. I had believed (probably been talking to too many distributors...) that the 109 Power was a fill it up with fuel, pax and baggage and fly all day type of machine. Perhaps I was a tad gullible there!

Stinger - I have to presume you weren't including the Bell 222 in your musings when you said the 109 was the best looking machine in the air?????

Cheers, ST

[RotorHorn]

JE,
Stingers A109 Power fuel consumption figures are about right.

220Kg/hr (with air con on) i.e. 110kg/hr per engine
200-210kg/hr without air con on!

Vne = 160-162kn with cruise somewhere around 135-140kn

Max weight 2850kg

Full fuel and 3 pax is within limits, but more pax means less fuel.....

Italian Helicopters just like Italian bikes - lovely to look at, great to drive, but the build quality is sometimes a little worrying - heard of a couple of A109 Powers (one an elite) having such thin paint jobs that you could see the primer through the top coat....:rolleyes:

[edited 'cos a kant spel]

[Heliport]

qmark posted the following question on another thread following the crash in Greece earlier this week. That thread now contains condolences and tributes to the pilot who died, and we know nothing about the cause of that particular accident, so I thought it was better to start a separate thread for a more general discussion.


" ..... Can't help thinking about all the 109's that have crashed over the last few years - still flying with a scissor link that can be fitted backwards - 2 have crashed in the UK (operated by Sloanes) and whilst Agusta have made changes to the maintenance manual the part remains the same !!!
The first Greek one crashed into the sea - so no confirmed outcome.
Does anyone out there care that this problem MAY still exist?
I don't wish to begin false or dramatic rumors but keep reading about 109 crashes and no change to this crucial part is not good for the soul.
Interested what anyone else may think?

[Heliport]

Blender Pilot responded ..........


qmark,
Lots of things can be installed backwards on helicopters, just yesterday I flew an L4 with the lift links/transmision supports installed backwards! Sure freaked out when I realized it! I have also seen bolts on pitch links, blade retaining bolts, and even T/R control cables on a Lama! Unfortunately this things happen way too often everywhere, and my advice is to be extra careful and check everything really good after the helicopter has been put back together!

About a year ago, they were making a runup on a Jet Ranger after an overhaul when the rotor head flew off and landed 1800 meters away on top of a school! Somebody forgot to tighten/install the "jesus nut"! Who would you blame the mechanics or the pilot?

[SASless]

Sometimes it helps to look over the machine when it comes out of maintenance....engineers are human too, right? The thought of the m/r not being secured as described indicts the engineer, the engineer that did the duplicate inspection, the Quality Assurance Program, the pilot.....everyone involved.

Now at a very cold place in the US....with a helicopter company that has a very short name...preflighted a 212 for the morning flight to discover a tail rotor pitch change link dangling lose on one end. Was a bit surprised, afterall it had been inspected, test flown and released for flying by the base manager and lead mechanic, following a tail rotor change. They couldn't understand my bellicose description of what I thought of them, their standards, and their veracity....the company wasn't impressed either until I suggested a federal agency with an equally short name might be interested.

It never hurts to double check what you can.....:cool:

[qmark]

Thanks Blender Pilot - Scarey !!!
But I think you will find that in UK for an aircraft to be given a CofA it must have no part of the control run able to be fit backwards, and all such parts should be manufactured to not allow this to happen - Rule 14 if I remember correctly
Be interested what others think of this - the 2 A109 Powers that crashed from Sloanes had each just come out of servicing having had the scissor link changed, and the new one put on backwards.
Not sure of the full facts but a VIP one and an Air ambulance if I remember the details correctly, happened within a few months of each other, with the fault not discovered until after the second crash where the pilot managed to pull off a mean landing and exposed the fault, where the previous accident had roled and disguised the fact that the scissor link was the cause.

[John Eacott]

RotorHorn,

Thanks, one of these days someone will bring a Power down here for us to play with.

The Power certainly seems to need the extra fuel that it is supposed to be able to carry! (FWIW, Stinger was specifically quoting figures for a C model) I'm vaguely surprised that the cruise isn't up on earlier models, although one major problem that we would encounter if a Power came down here is the weight increase putting the E model into Transport Class A. CASA is paranoid once you move up from Class B (<2750kg), and the increased maintenance and record keeping is both painful and expensive. Do you have the same problem with the CAA?

Italian cars and helicopters: if it isn't leaking oil, there's something wrong ;)

[The Nr Fairy]

The accident reports qmark are referring to are available at :

G-JRSL report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb01/gjrsl.htm)

G-TVAA report (http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb01/gtvaa.htm)

[Heliport]

"the fault not discovered until after the second crash"

As I recall, the first crash was wrongly rumoured to be 'pilot error' until the second crash and the AAIB reports were published.
Both pilots did a fantastic job - as the AAIB reports reveal. http://www.stopstart.fsnet.co.uk/smilie/thumbs.gif

[matador]

Can't remember the exact date but around 2 or 3 years ago one 109 power coming from maintenance to its working base in Madrid as HEMS crashed. As result the only pilot on board died. Witness man in agricultural job around the scene decribed: " helicopter started to do strange things near the ground and finally crashed oppsite direction than it was flying". I flew to the scene and thought that for a helicopter with no contollability, what a great job the pilot had done trying to bring it down!!
After all this time no results on investigation but we all think in the same cause than you are discribing in previous meesages. So sadly I have to say you were forgetting to add this accident to the others you discribe.

[BlenderPilot]

Matador,

Are you in Spain? Do you by any chance know a Heli pilot named Xavier Rovira? He's catalan and taught me to hover in the US many years ago.

Last I heard several years ago he was working over there fighting fires.

[RW-1]

Blender Pilot stated:

Who would you blame the mechanics or the pilot?

That's the unfortunate part of our professions, it has to be something we couldn't have seen on preflight to be able to lay causal factors elsewhere other than the obvious "pilot did not notice on preflight, etc."

Lot of pressure, typical response is that if we can't handle it, then don't do it.

My thought is: Check Everything before flight, and hope if something happens it wasn't something I could have foreseen.:rolleyes: Know what I mean?

[matador]

Hi Blender pilot, yes I've heard about Xavi Rovira ,though I never met him we share some friends. He is working in Cataluña in a company called Heliswiss mostly in firefigting and external cargo in northern mountains. If you want I could contact him and get you in touch with him.
Glad to share information with everybody in this forum.
Buen vuelo.

[PANews]

I have just done a bit of off-line research on the crash record of the 109 Power and I have come up with this list ....

Date

03.03.1997 9M-DRB Destroyed Commercial
26.07.1999 EC-GQX Destroyed EMS
See the above report. Data supplied by Air-Britain. According to them it was mentioned in AAIB report www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb01/gtvaa.htm so I guess that it was a scissors accident but have not checked.
14.01.2000 G-JRSL Damaged w/o Commercial
26.2.2000 I-FLAN Damaged in f/l EMS
17.6.2000 G-TVAA Damaged w/o EMS
14.1.2000 SX-HDQ Destroyed EMS
09.10.2000 I-FLAN Destroyed EMS
25.02.2001 G-DPPH Damaged w/o Police
17.06.2002 SX-HDR Destroyed EMS

plus there has been PP-MPA which ditched in the Atlantic within the last year on a commercial flight.

I make no comment whether that list of ten [including one which flew again to crash again] is a good or a bad record, but I am sure it will give you something to chew on!

[Capn Notarious]

Now in addition to the preceeding list.
Didn`t an English Television presenter;
known for a helicopter passion. Have an
inflight control problem with the same make of
machine: whose style is not disimiliar to those in this thread?

[qmark]

He sure did - and now refuses to fly his family in the aircraft and is trying hard to move it on - but who would buy it ?
Don't forget the Dyfeed Powys Police A109E crash on Dec 26 last year aswell - that's gone quiet now aswell
Link this site to the A119 crashes aswell - who would buy a helicopter from Augusta ????
Still they plough on and we keep buying them and flying them - maybe when enough people have lost thier lives someone will spark !!!!

[SASless]

If the Agusta is all that bad....why is not the FAA/CAA on their case? Also....why has not some lawyer tweaked to the lure of vast sums of money if he wins a court action for product reliability or some other lovely tactic for removing money from defendants? Surely the insurance companies would be in the lead to put them out of business by charging outrageous premiums?
:confused:

[Lu Zuckerman]

Regarding the CAAs requirement that no design will be certificated if parts can be put in backwards this sounds good in principle but it is not always true. That is my first point.

Regarding the crash of any aircraft the certifying authorities require that something be changed in order to prevent a similar accident from occurring. The manufacturer has the option of changing the design, which is expensive, or to modify or clarify the procedures, which allowed the accident to occur. Another thing to consider is that it was purely a maintenance error and the technician did not follow the existing procedures or in cases illustrated in the accident report the manufacturers technicians installed the scissors incorrectly.

Although this post is aimed at accidents of Agusta designed helicopters the same situation applies not only to all helicopter designs but to fixed wing aircraft as well. Engineers do not take into consideration all aspects of the design although the certification requirements dictate what should be done. The tech writers sometimes minimize the technical detail in the maintenance procedures or they get it wrong or, they too do not consider all aspects of the procedure and what can go wrong. If a maintenance technician performs his job in accordance with the manual and something goes wrong it is not his fault. However if he does not follow the procedure and something goes wrong then it is his fault. But who is at fault if the technician follows the procedures and the procedures are wrong. In that case the procedure is changed or further amplified with words or pictures.

This does not happen, as frequently on military aircraft as the entire maintenance manual must be verified by performing every single maintenance procedure. If a discrepancy is indicated the manual and or the design is changed prior to fielding the system. This does not mean the system is perfect, as problems will arise in the field but not to the magnitude of the problems described in this thread.

Getting back to my first point there are many designs that were approved by the CAA where parts or elements could either be put in backwards or cross connected.

Cases in point: S-55 where the tail rotor controls could be cross-connected. The S-58 where the electrical connectors on the servo control systems could be cross-connected shutting both systems down. A-310 and possibly the A-320 where the electrical controls and sensing and control elements of the secondary flight control could be cross connected causing system failure or possibly causing extreme difficulty in diagnosing technical problems. There are probably many many more.

The manufacturers are not perfect nor are the certifying authorities. However you must end up flying the finished product. As it has been said many times in these threads never buy (or fly) the A model of anything.

:confused:

[bosher]

The Television presenter's problems were not airframe ones, they were avionic.
I believe that a vertical gyro had failed on a previous flight causing one SAS channel to be inop.
He continued operating the aircraft (with only one SAS)
When the other VG failed, he was left with no SAS at all.
Hardly a life or death situation.

Dont think you can blame Agusta for this one, maybe the VG gyro supplier ( a dodgy batch of gyros was to blame)

Sure whenever a new aircraft design comes on to the market place their is going to be teething troubles. (and the swashplate was a BIG one). But the 109 Power is a great bit of kit, and I'm sure anyone who flys whem will agree.

[Capn Notarious]

Your information helps keep the thread alive, and discounts my posting and I dont mind a bit.THINKS I wonder, is the pilot concerned in the gyro failure; a ppruner: if you are, what about personal input.?

[Rob_L]

Examples the Bo105 long tail rotor control rod can be installed back to front. The 105 tail rotor can be installed with the flapping stops outboard, found that one on a duplicate inspection.
The tail rotor blades on the 105 can be installed back to front.

Nice idea that no control can be installed back to front but not the case.

As for the CAA requirements, if I remember corectly the Met Police 222 which crashed a few years back had a failure of CAA mandated changes to the tail rotor control system.

[John Eacott]

Rob L,

Even better, you can buy a new 117 tail rotor assembly (-C these days) direct from the factory in Germany, with incorrect (Bo105) weight arms installed. When the right pedal throws 2" forward, and the helicopter takes about 25lb of pedal force to fly in balanced flight, Eurocopter's answer is that it's not their fault, install a hydraulic t/r servo to reduce the force :rolleyes:

Fortunately we have a good maintenance organisation, who ran down a parts check and sussed out the error. 5 months later the silence from EID is deafening :confused:

[widgeon]

on the 105 is you install the TR blades backwards and reverse the engine rotation can you fly inverted ?. btw Eurocopter ( france ) avoid the problem of buying an A model by always making the first production version B , AS350b , EC120b , EC155b

[Heliport]

http://www.agusta.it/imnews/a129cbt_P.JPG

Special ceremony held at Agusta's Vergiate facility on October, 25, 2002. Italian Army Chief of Staff, Gen.Gianfranco Ottogalli, was accompanied at the ceremony by Ing. Amedeo Caporaletti, Agusta SpA President.
In 1999 the Italian Army awarded a contract to Agusta, an AgustaWestland company, for the production of the last batch of 15 A129s in the new Combat (CBT) configuration, to meet the Italian Army's new requirements as dictated by the new international scenarios.
The new A129 CBT includes a 20mm gun turret, Stinger air-to-air missiles, avionics and airframe upgrades including a five blade main rotor and increased mission weight.
The A129 was originally designed to comply with the requirements set by the Italian MoD for day/night, all weather anti-tank and scout roles, with a built-in growth capability for further weapons and systems development.
At the end of last year, the Italian Army awarded a contract to Agusta to also retrofit the other 45 A129s currently in service to the CBT configuration. All the A129s will be assembled and upgraded at Vergiate plant in Italy.

[maxvne]

Hi Can anyone help I am looking to find if there is any weight and balance calculations on a computerised spreadsheet available for all the 109 models.
all help appreciated
Thanks Max

[Kalif]

I've got A109E CofG program for a Psion 3c; any help?

[maxvne]

Hi Kalif that would be excellent would it be possible to get it from you and how

Max

[Ascend Charlie]

It is a piece of cake to make your own using Excel or another spreadsheet. The columns are called
Item (or passenger name, as it can be used as a manifest)
Weight
Arm (from flight manual, for pilot / copilot row, middle rear-facing row, rear seat, cargo compartment)
Moment (weight * arm)

And the rows are:
Aircraft basic (or operational) weight
Pilot
Copilot
Centre left
Centre right
Rear left
Rear middle
Rear right
Baggage compartment

Zero fuel weight (sum of all weights above, and the ARM column will be the sum of moments divided by sum of weights, and is your longitudinal cg position.

Below that is the row for your fuel, and its arm

Then comes the final row, the fly-away weight and the final Arm.

You can put in extras to make the weight box turn red if it is over the limits, and other calculations will put a box with the allowable range with the fuel you can carry.
And in an Agusta, this box can bring tears to your eyes - with 4 or 5 pob your range is line-of-sight.

Then you can add a chart to graphically show your cg position. The first task is to define the envelope, so in an area well away from your figures, make a list of the corners of the envelope, usually 5 or 6 points. No reason to include any that fall below your aircraft's empty weight. These become Series one on the chart.

The second series is made by copying the cells with the ZFW weight and Arm, and then the fly-away weight and arm. This should then draw a line on the chart showing how the cg will vary with fuel burnoff.

Don't forget to lock out all the cells except the passenger's name and weight, and the fuel and cargo - otherwise some dill will blot out your arms / moments and wreck the whole show.

Plenty of other stuff can be added, and of course this chart method applies to any aircraft - I have made them for R22, BK117, B206/L, AS 350, EC 120, A109 and S76. Obviously you must cross-check the calculations for various configs against the flight manual examples.

With a little computer skill (and I have as little as anybody) you can make a load sheet / manifest that will get you through a CASA ramp check.;)

[maxvne]

Thanks for the information I will try and get some help as I am pretty bad with a computer, and to me unfortunately it sounds rather difficult.

Max

[Bell427]

Our Police department bought that helicopter,and agusta will have instaled moving map. ...Were in cockpit ist "moving map" instaled?

[widgeon]

Many moving maps from garmin 430 up to 14" displayed on Avilex Flir Monitor , depends which one you are getting. In Europe Euro avionics make a large one with lots of terrain info as well.
Other ones are Metamap and Navitrack ( good canadian company ).

[HeliMark]

Most P.D.'s display it on the FLIR monitor. One less screen in the cockpit. Anything smaller for a map that displays address's and stuff is too small to really work with.

We currently have the Avilex monitor in our birds. They are very nice screens, and do not take much room.

[Rwy in Sight]

A A-109E operated by Helitalia on behalf of the Greek National Emergency service went down on February the 10th at 21:15 GMT as it was turning base to runway 33 at Ikaria airport in Eastern Greece. There were 2 pilots and 2 medical crew on board.

The wind was blowing at 4 knots.

Some debris have been found but no bodies recovered yet


It is the third helicopter that crashes in less than 25 months..

RIP for the crew.


Rwy in Sight

[ThinkRate]

http://www.in.gr/dGenesis/assets/Content5/Photo/437575_b.jpg

Athens, 13/02/2003 (ANA)
A judicial inquiry into the conditions and causes of the third crash involving an EKAB ambulance service helicopter was launched by Supreme Court Public Prosecutor Evangelos Kroustallakis on Wednesday.

Kroustallakis has ordered investigators to determine whether any criminally prosecutable offence has been committed and by whom. He has also asked that evidence from the files of the two previous accidents be juxtaposed to determine if their causes were similar.

Finally, he asked for the minutes of meetings by the committees responsible for ordering and accepting delivery of the specific helicopters.

The last downed medicopter was lost early on Tuesday while conducting a night-time flight to pick up a patient from the Aegean island of Ikaria, disappearing from radar screens shortly after midnight while flying two kilometers from Ikaria airport. It was the third Agusta helicopter chartered from the Italian company Helitalia to crash since the loss of a medicopter that crashed off the cape of Sounio in January 2001 and another that fell in Anafi last summer, while in both previous cases everyone on board was killed.

Meanwhile, the search for survivors or bodies from the latest crash and for the remains of the fuselage was still continuing on Ikaria on Wednesday.

Three oil slicks have been sighted in the sea near the airport and the seabed is being scanned by ships on the surface to detect the fuselage.

Due to continuing bad weather and rough seas, divers and a search-and-rescue helicopter have been confined to the shore and only one Navy vessel, two salvage vessels and local fishing boats were able to participate in the search, which authorities said would continue for as long as the weather allowed.

Commenting on the accident on Wednesday, meanwhile, government spokesman Christos Protopapas stressed that the government took all measures necessary to protect lives and pointed out that Health Minister Costas Stefanis had forbidden all night-time flights by EKAB helicopters after the latest accident.

He said that continued collaboration with Helitalia, the company responsible for the technical supervision of the helicopters, would be reviewed when its contract with EKAB expired within the year while noting that it had been chosen by public tender.

He also pointed out that the same type of helicopter was used by many countries for similar tasks, while adding that each country had its own special geographical and other characteristics.

''We have to look into the conditions of the specific flight,'' Protopapas stressed and underlined that there had been a thorough technical check prior to the fateful flight and that all safety regulations had been adhered to.

He said that reports of malfunctions in the specific helicopter would be investigated.

Finally, Protopapas announced that the army had volunteered to cover the immediate emergency needs of island populations after the ban on night-time medicopter flights, and that a more permanent solution would be sought during a meeting of the cabinet to discuss health and welfare issues on Thursday.

EKAB doctors and paramedics refuse to fly with Helitalia helicopters in future: Doctors and paramedics of the National Emergency Centre (EKAB) held a general assembly on Wednesday and stressed their refusal to fly with helicopters of the ''Helitalia'' company in the future.

Helicopter flights at night have already been forbidden, while EKAB representatives made it clear that they will not travel in ''Helitalia'' helicopters during daytime either, except for those belonging to the military, to ferry patients from remote islands to organized hospitals.

They said they want the management of flying facilities to return to a public carrier and reserved their right to call new mobilizations during their general assembly on Monday.
END.
------------------------------------------

Although all three crashes were different in nature (the first one was low flight in heavy night thunderstorm over the sea, the second one was night CFIT during t/o, the third one was on short final in excelent -night- weather conditions) they all had -at least- these in common: they were all flown night VFR in A109P helicopters operated by Helitalia (who have now lost 3 out of the original 5 helis on the job -60% in two years!).

The investigation will focus on pilot training under night VFR over the sea (a number of pilots were ex- Army heli pilots, instead of the more "expensive" to hire ex-Naval heli pilots), on A-109P's capacity to do the job and of course on Helitalia's practices and SOPs.

RIP.

[Aesir]

"Think Rate" thanks for your info on the accident!

I hope this does not mean the end of civilian HEMS operations in Greece.

Very sad and very strange that there have been 3 major crashes in such a short time. I hope that a thorough investigation will determine the cause of the crashes.

In all civilised countries private commercial operators are taking over ambulance and medevac operations from the military and it would truly be a sad day if someone would think that civilian operators don´t do as good a job as the military for the Greek people.

Surely an Italian operator would know how to operate a Italian made helicopter safely and although I have newer flown the A-109 I understand that they are excellent IFR/IMC aircraft. So with a properly trained crew night operations should be no problem.

Please keep us updated on the situation.

[mihael]

I had a chance to see a thorough debriefing about their secind accident. Here is from my memory:
the story goes, that this air ambulance service was cofounded by EU, under condition, that it will be organised well under JAR OPS 3- HEMS. Greek government was thus forced to go into international public tender for organisation of this HEMS service and Helitalia won - and provided helicopters, maintenance and pilots. But Greeks wanted to have native PICs -so dual pilot crew was adopted - one Greek and one Italian or other nation, as provided by Helitalia.
The crash - CFIT happened approx two minutes after take off on a clear night with no wind and with good visual clues on take off, provided by lights of nearby town, below helipad, which was located on top of the small hill. Helicopter departed almost 90° away from prescribed departure bearing, and crashed at the altitude only a few hundred feet above the helipad elevation, and with landing gear still down.
No mechanical failure was linked to the accident.
The gentleman, giving the presentation, was quite familiar with some pilots, flying for this company, and he gave the following (shortened) explanation:
"we are facing the new sort of accidents", and he called it "a multicultural accident" Namelly, he was well informed about the relations between local and ("imported") company pilots, which were seen as intruders and a fight of egos was in the air most of the time, fighting for "who is right and who is more knowledgeable...., so that kind of cockpit atmosphere was obviously precluding any teamwork, dedicated to safe flying.
Sad to say this, but from the presentation and hard evidence provided, I had to concur with the explanation given.



:(

[CyclicRick]

Thanks for the info. I was flying through Greece at the time (from Egypt to Germany) and couldn't understand a word of what was on Greek telly but there were more than a few "heated" discussions about it. I think the Greeks are pretty upset about this especially as it's the third in two years.

[Heliport]

Press Release by Dyfed-Powys Police
http://www.rotorhub.com/news/0302/dyfedpowys.jpg

It is confirmed that the Authority have approved the purchase of an Agusta 109E from Sloane Helicopters Ltd. In reaching a decision the Force and Authority considered other alternative helicopters. A detailed evaluation process has been undertaken by officers of the Force which concluded that the Agusta 109E was best placed to meet the operating mission profile of the Force and was also the most competitively priced solution.

This aircraft is a replacement for the previously owned Agusta 109E. In light of the requirement for the aircraft to be fitted with police specific role equipment and the suppliers’ own lead-time, delivery is anticipated in October. In the meantime the Force will continue to maintain air support coverage through the use of a hired aircraft.

[Thomas coupling]

Wonders never cease:eek:

[mihael]

Anything wrong with this wonder?
Is there anyone else operating A-109 E in police role? Speak up please, and tell about your experience. (Ours A-109E is coming next year):O

[Unwell_Raptor]

Bloody Hell.

It's a Taffycopter.

:O

[Heliport]

Welcome to Rotorheads, Mihael.

Guys
Mihael is a pilot with the Slovenia Police ASU. He's interested in knowing: What Police Pilots who currently operate the A-109E think of it's performance
and
How the A109 compares with the MD 902 and EC-135?


I think Mihael is our first Rotorhead from Slovenia - Can any Police pilots help?

Heliport

[RotorPig]

Just to add the report on the accident that led to the requirement for a new airframe is out see http://www.aaib.dft.gov.uk/bulletin/feb03/gdpph.htm

I think the answer to Mihaels question is there is nothing wrong with the airframe, it just hasn't been popular in the UK. Perhaps a post on the European ASU forum might provide some more answers.

[tbc]

I have had the pleasure of working at Dyfed-Powys albeit on both the AS 355 (not their old 'N') and the trusty old Bollock!!

From this I appreciated that the unit had a huge area to cover and probably placed speed in transit at a higher priority than possibly other units did - so hence the 109.

I would suggest that the Ec 135 and the MD 902 have to work very hard to get close to a 109 - but what the hell do I know!!

I don't fly the A 109E, but I know a man who did and I may ask him to comment for the benefit of those who want a pilot's eye view when comparing the 902/135 and 109

[Helinut]

Heliport,

I think there will be few people wh can compare the 109E with the other aircraft mainly used by Police forces - In the UK there is ony one force that has ever fllown the 109E.

You may get opinions, but they will not be directly drawn from experience. We are not being difficult - we don't know!

[Heliport]

Thanks, I take your point.

I suppose the next best thing would be the +/- of the other types more widely used.

And reasons why the A109 is so rarely used by Police ASU.

[MightyGem]

I think the reason that ASUs didn't pick the 109 was that, when people started replacing their 355s and 105s, it wasn't seen as a contender against the new 135s and 902s.

Indeed Dyfed-Powys initially ordered a 135. However, after various disagreements cancelled and had a 109 instead.

[Hoverman]

Why didn't the ASUs see the 109 as a contender at the time?
Is it now?
Is payload an issue?

----------

I haven't got any stats, but I've got the impression there seem to be more A109 accidents/incidents than others in common use.
Is that a false impression?

Anyone got any views?

[flygunz]

The 109E worked well as the AA air ambulance and I would expect it to do equally well in the Police role. It is an expensive option and in my opinion less robust than some of the competition. There are continuing tail rotor issues with the Agusta product but I know they are working on that.

[JohnCarr]

Couple of reasons that I can think of : poor view out for the Police Observers, long nose gets in the way. There is a half bulkhead between Cabin and cockpit, leaves a feeling of splitting the crew, and finally it's noisy. You can hear them coming for miles. ;)

[[email protected]]

I think the 109 got a bad press for a while following a couple of crashes which were due to the scissors assembly on the rotor being fitted incorrectly.

[TeeS]

I believe, never flown it so can not confirm, that in the hover, nose up attitude is rather uncomfortable for the police observers. It is certainly a very sexy looking machine, I would love to fly it, but from what I have seen, not as a HEMS machine! Tail rotor too exposed, small wheels, no ground clearance, small cabin. On the plus side, nice and fast, sexy and the power (from what I hear) has 'power'!

[widgeon]

think it has a lot to do with Mc Alpine marketing their product better as well. Selling a complete package , is there much type approved police kit available for the 109 ? , Does landing a wheeled aircraft in muddy fields present a problem as compared to skid equipped ?. I have also heard horror stories about the maintainability of them . But they do look sexy that's fer sure

[Helinut]

I decided not to comment on this one, because I don't have direct experience of the 109E (unfortunately), but even with my limited knowledge, I can't agree that the Thames Valley Air Ambulance 109E produced much evidence of it being a good choice for this use:

It crashed in an effectively uncontrolled fashion because of the scissor jack problem mentioned previously;
It once got stuck on a railway because its wheels got mixed up with rails and/or sleepers - skids would seem to be a better bet surely?
In the end, it was binned by the trust paying for it. There were differing stories about why, but high cost of operation was said to be part of the reason.

I do agree that the success of the 135 and (to a lesser extent) the 902 is at least partly due to the marketing effort put in by their UK distributors. The fit of police role equipment offered must surely be a major factor - it is something that the police officers who decide what is flown can make (fairly) informed decisions upon. The other issue is maintenance support - the numerically more common have (relatively) well established support and parts systems.

I would be interested to hear why DP went for a 109E again, but I suspect we will never really know.

Incidentally, Police Aviation News publish numerical comparisons between candidate airframes.

As a driver though, I would love to have the opportunity to fly one!

[flygunz]

Helinut, I agree that skids are normally better than wheels for most operational purposes but that is not always the case. The Forces work both wheeled and skidded ac to great effect but having flown a variety of both I lean slighty towards skids.
In defence of the Thames Valley Air Ambulance, the scissors cock up on both ac was human error and the litigation continues. As for the nose wheel incident I believe the ground gave way which although no less embarrassing, could happen to any of us.
I'm not a huge fan of the Power, yes its sleek, fast and works well as a VIP heli, but as a workhorse I think it falls down on cost, durability and flexibility. Agustas are also known for an excessive rearwards Centre of Gravity which requires good pre planning to ensure safety.
I think its an expensive choice.

[Thomas coupling]

I stand to be corrected, but I bet you the decision to buy the 109 rather than the other two on the short list, was NOT made by anyone with aviation experience:confused:
Doesn't commonality of types tell you something when purchasing equipment. 95% of police air support units operate only two new generation types...why is that?
Bean counters win again (for the short term).

[PANews]

As I received a mention!

My understanding was that the final final final decision was made at the police authority - a factor that tends to fit in with TC's feelings on the matter.

In the end though it will be seen as a 'tick' in favour of the 109 especially after the recent sales of the A119 to police units in the USA.

[sierra-papa]

...besides all other points and because nobody else mentioned it yet - the 109's tend to overheat their main transmission when operated in extended slowflight or (even worse) hovering. The machine is build for the fastlane! I did surveilance type work in one, and we would always temp out after some time. As a police ship you need to be able to sit somewhere as long as it takes without temp concerns.

[Marco]

True it looks good and is fast. However, after dark when you want a Nightsun fitted the top speed is 140 kts IAS, which is only single figures better than the 135 & 902. The searchlight fit does seem a bit of a meccano modification, certainly with the SX-16. One wonders if they'll consider the Nightsun II although taking it on and off isn't an option with this equipment. Have to agree with JC though, it is very noisy.

[John Eacott]

No experience of the E, but time on earlier models. The nose up/CoG issue was partailly resolved in the C, by shifting most of the avionics from the tail boom to the nose bay, but even in the A & AII, I never found it that much of a problem. MGB shouldn't overheat, I'd suspect blockage somewhere, which can (and does) happen on the engine oil coolers. Well known for clogging up with dust and dry grass, particularly fire fighting or sling loading, and at low speed there is insufficient airflow to compensate. Quick clean usually does the trick!

Re skids vs wheels, there are problems with both. The reference to wheels & railway lines, there is always the possibility that skids could be bent landing on lines, if the skid tube is misplaced such that weight is concentrated on the tube away from the saddles. Also, the toe and/or heel of skids are always at risk of catching and inducing dynamic rollover in bush landings.

109 has always struck me as more of a high speed VIP transport than a workhorse. 12 years of operation has taught me that it is a classic Italian piece of machinery: if it isn't leaking oil somewhere, it will ;)

[Ascend Charlie]

Similar experiences to John. A RAAF Iroquois landed on some train tracks in the early 70s and the heel of one skid got stuck in the rails... and here come de train!! The crewy had run ahead to warn the train, but with all wheels locked up it skidded and skidded... and slid past the chopper on the next track! Lucky the pilot had turned the blade sideways.

Our Agusta was not an E, but we had some troubles landing on soft ground - the wheel sank into the grass, past the hub, and we were belly onto the ground. Lucky not to lose the antennas. It is possible to damage a brake line if it sinks too far.

We didn't leak too much oil - except from the dampers - but the Allison engines made sure the tail boom could never rust, being covered with a fuel residue and soot. The CG would progress backwards as the fuel burnt off from the front and the soot deposited at the back.

The Agusta was never a successful military machine, once the Russians developed an oil-seeking missile.:*

[STANDTO]

The fundamental issue that has been missed is that policing has to be done with a certain amount of style. There are few things that will instill confidence in the public more, than those lovely little retractable wheels popping out in the low hover, just before touchdown. Then, when the observer steps out in suitably Gucci kit to right wrongs and defeat evil he will have something of an advantage.

Must say though, seems a barmy choice, and if things are so critical in the crime mecca of Dyfed Powys thenn perhaps they should have gone for something even bigger, like a dauphin??

[ppheli]

Searchlight issue besides, they do need the speed as they have the largest force area to cover in the UK (4,188 square miles, with the furthest points 160 miles apart). Their HQ (and thus hangar, ops base) is not located particularly near the center, either!

[Thomas coupling]

Ppheli: Where do you get your stats from?
Strathclyde
NE
Chiltern
N Mids
C Counties
Devon and Cornwall

all bigger than Dyfed Powys area!!!

Even we cover 9500 sq miles!

As was also mentioned earlier, when you stick nightsun and cameras on the 109, you're down to 140kts Vno which is 5 kts faster than a 135?

What will they do for relief pilotage?

[HeliTigg]

I was stuck in the middle of a conversation, (well, bordering on an argument!) between two people yesterday discussing the reliability of the Augusta 109.

Can anyone here shed more light so i can do a better job as mediator next time!

Tigg

[Jed A1]

As with any helicopter it depends. Let me give you two scenarios.

I have a friend who had a A109AII for personal use a couple of years ago. He bought it because, as a twin, it had a low capital price. He flew it for an hour or two a week. Half the time that it was on the ground, it was sat outside in the cold, damp rain. He moaned, bitterly that when he came to fly it, it was unreliable. It cost him a fortune to operate on an hourly basis. He says he was paying for a days unscheduled maintenance every week. His techlog was full of defferred defects. The gear rarely worked. He survived a year with it, then sold it.

I also know of a very succesful operation that has several A109A's & II's. They fly them every day, always hangar them in a beautiful hangar, have a team of dedicated engineers who pamper the machines. They swear by them, have operated then for almost twenty years.

Get the picture.

[HeliTigg]

fair point, so care for it and it will reward you well, as with anything.

But would those caring engineers have to do more work per week to keep it in tip top condition than they would on say a S76??

[John Eacott]

HT,

I operated a 109AII for 9 years, which is now on the bottom of the Pacific, along with the ship taking it to North America :rolleyes: When it was sold, a weight lifted from my shoulders.

We averaged 300 hours per year, but it was labour intensive in maintenance hours, and never made money as a charter machine. Fast (sometimes), fun to fly (short trips only, seating's awful), attractive lines, leaks oil constantly - all in all, Italian;)

[Ascend Charlie]

Have to agree with Senor Eacott. Ours was a MkII Plus Widebody, and it needed to be washed after EVERY flight, due to the oil being vented in front of the tailboom and the copious soot pumped out of the C20Rs. They could never be used in war because an oil-seeking missile would find it every time.

Yes, it was fast, our VIP seating for 4 in the back was comfortable with the extra 7" shoulder room, but the range was tragic. Half the available payload was taken up with spare cans of oil in the boot. Aircon couldn't keep pace with summer.

Reliability? It had an electrical glitch that tripped number 3 inverter on almost every flight. Couldn't fix it. Had a recurring generator problem. Pulling a chip detector was a nightmare.

Overall, an Italian show pony, not a work horse.

Our S76 is far more reliable, rarely has a fault, but keeps an engineer fully employed on the scheduled maintenance and the paperwork.

[spinningwings]

I agree with John E. ....and don't forget the corrossion ...I mean it only had 2400hrs (AFTT) on it??? cripes! :ugh: :(

[Elite]

I agree with Jed A1. The A109 is an excellent machine particularly the E and contrary to some peoples opinions here operates in many "workhorse" roles with considerable success. However it would appear that the more they are utilised the better the reliabilty becomes (particularly on the A and C).

[Dantruck]

Totally agree with all the above.

Work them hard, and every day, and they'll love ya. Leave them sitting around with nothing to do and they'll cost you dear.

...bit like an Italian girlfriend I once had:}

[bpaggi]

Mister Zukerman
I am surprised to discover such a degree of resentment towards Agusta.
First, I think you posted your thoughts in the wrong subject. This topic is the discussion on the A109 reliability and not the personal regrets towards companies that did not satisfy your personal expectations.
I did not find any contribution to the discussion on the A109 reliability but only bad words against a company that deserve at least respect.
You said you spent three years working at Agusta. In my opinion you lost a great opportunity of see Italy because is so evident you’ve been living for such a long time with big and thick slices of good Italian salame (and not salami as you British keep saying) on your eyes.
The idea that Italians are inferior with respect to the ability, that people like you owe, in working on a complicated work is the evidence you consider Italians inferior and do not deserve the respect by you.
I am still laughing about your idea of machismo that affects Italians. This the evidence that you have lost a good opportunity of get in touch with Italian culture that, fore sure, is far greater than yours.
I suggest you that next time you’ll been visiting Italy, whenever this will happen, to bring with you some good working manual for complex projects to distribute to the poor Italians workers. This will allow my Country to reach a descent level of competence to deserve the honour to talk to you.
By the way the name of the company is Agusta and not Augusta.

[B Sousa]

ALso had recent conversation with a friend flying one and it equated to:
Turbomeca engines >>>>>>Hanger Queen
P/W Engines>>>>> Reliable

[bpaggi]

Yes Zuckerman,
I do think you have a strange attitude towards Agusta.
The asbestos problem was not as you described. The asbestos presence in the air of the hangar was kept monitored twice a year. About fifteen years ago the hangar structures were completely cleaned by asbestos.
The atmosphere in northern Italy is very humid and hence more corrosive than normal but no more than that. I still have my Lancia since ten years in perfect conditions although it was never waxed and it does'nt have a great reputation for its resistance to corrosion.

PS: Yes I work for Agusta and I'm sorry, but if you hate Italian Salame you miss a good taste of life.

Buona Fortuna LU

[Yarba]

bpaggi,
You need to calm down and not act like machismo Italian! First you talk to 'Mister Zukerman', then to 'Zuckerman' ( quite rude really) who actually says he like Salame and thinks it very tasty. It was also not he who spelt Agusta wrongly.
My own observation of Agusta 109 is not that is especially unreliable, but that spares back-up is poor, maybe backing up what Lu says - which is not that the A109 is bad, but product support needs to be improved.
(my own Italian car started to rust almost as soon as I got it - I now only drive German ;) )

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: bpaggi

Speaking of reliable automobiles I sold a perfectly good Mitsubishi Colt (the one I drove from Germany) and bought a Lancia Delta 1600. From the start I had electrical problems that almost resulted in a fire. I had wheel-bearing problems and the factory paint was so bad that I had to get part of the car repainted. I found defects in the cars structure that occurred when the car was being built and the service was so bad in Arona that I used to drive to Lugano for any repairs or service. I ended up selling the car in Zurich.

My present car is a Toyota built in Canada and it is very reliable.


:ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

I think it is fair to note that Lu is talking of his time at Agusta, which was quite a while ago.
Things have changed considerably since then.

[MamboBaas]

I hear that a new helicopter operator in West Africa is looking at starting an operation with 3 Agusta 109 Powers in a few months, so maybe we'll get some more feedback then about both reliabilty and support.

[Elite]

To: Mambobass

Do you have any more information on this proposed operation? Are they buying 3 new Power's for Commercial use?

To: Lu Zuckerman

Perhaps you need to look at the title of the thread again!

I'm quite sure that lots of people could air their grievences in respect of the other major manufacturers too, however you may notice that most people choose not to which is either a reflection on you or them. Perhaps the phrase "time and place" is appropriate here.

A perfectly valid question was asked as to the comparitive reliability of the A109 and it would appear as I stated earlier that the consenus is that they are fundamentally a reliable machine that likes to be worked hard to achieve best serviceability. A trait I'm sure you will agree is not without its benefits.:ok:

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: Elite

I'm quite sure that lots of people could air their grievences in respect of the other major manufacturers too, however you may notice that most people choose not to which is either a reflection on you or them. Perhaps the phrase "time and place" is appropriate here.

You have totally missed the point of my post. In addressing the internal problems that were so pervasive within Agusta engineering and product support (while I was there) I was trying to point out some of the possible underlying reasons for the unreliability of the A-109. There was no communication and without communication there can be no product integrity.

I did not indicate that the A-109 is unreliable it was other members of this thread that pointed that out. Other members of the forum indicated that they did not feel that the A-109 was unreliable but that frequent maintenance was required to maintain the reliability.

However frequent maintenance is a form of unreliability because the helicopter was unable to go from one periodic maintenance to the next without some type of tweaking and/or servicing.

If you feel that I have been unfair in my assumptions about Agusta you should read some of my posts on the A-310 and Bell Helicopter.

:ok:

[Heliport]

.......... and Hughes, and Sikorsky and ..........

Please refer to a directory of aircraft manufacturers for the rest of the list! ;)

http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung/aktion/action-smiley-085.gif

[Alan.Devins]

Hi, are there any agusta 109a pilots here who would be able to provide me with information on this helicopter.
I am building one for flight simulator and Im looking for stuff like start up and shut down procedures and any general info about it and its handling.

Thanks
Alan

my email is [email protected] if you want to email me.

[Ascend Charlie]

Get in touch with Sloanes - they have a website, and are the UK agents for Agusta.

[Alan.Devins]

Thanks for the reply.

Have gotten great help from one member and an email from another.

I wont mention your names incase you dont them mentioned but thanks and ill talk to ya by email.

Alan

[MPT]

G'day All,

Just heard (from a little birdie, of course), that a nice shiny new A109E in Melbourne may now sport a sore chin due to a towing mishap where the nose wheel retracted without warning. I suppose that's what happens when you have those new fangled wheel thingies. Give me good old skids anyday!!

Cheers,

MPT

PS See page 9 on the piccies thread for a "before" picture.

(edited to try and get the first "u" out of Augusta, rats!!!)

[t'aint natural]

An Agusta 109 was being wheeled down a ramp off a ship in Liverpool when a shackle broke and it rolled into a bollard. There was a little dint in the radome, like if you'd hit your egg gently with your spoon. Damage was £15,000.

[sycamore]

A bit "Roman-nosey" you might say!!:D

[Lu Zuckerman]

Agusta shipped a brand new A-109 to the Far East. To protect it during shipment they placed it in a seagoing metal container. There was one problem. The rotor mast protruded through the top of the container. Agusta specified to the shipping firm that no containers be placed on top of the container containing the helicopter. The helicopter was mounted on a metal frame attached to the jacking pads and vibration absorbers isolated the frame. The shipping company followed Agustas’ instructions but the container was not placed on the top of the other containers for the seagoing part of the trip. In fact there were at least three containers placed on top of the container with the helicopter.

The weight on the top drove the transmission down into the fuselage and when the helicopter arrived at its’ destination it was a write off.

:sad:

[trimpot]

The first brand new 412 that was shipped for theVictorian Air Ambulance contract was tied down by the door handles! Apparently the wharfies in the states insisted that is was their job to lash it to the ship and not the bell reps. Needless to say the handles were ripped off before it hit the sunny shores of Oz :mad:

[ppheli]

This nose wheel retraction idea is not restricted to 109s. I recall an S76 suffering the same at Brooklands UK back in the early 80s - ie prior to Air Hanson moving to Blackbushe in 88

[Head Turner]

I hear that Agusta are to replace the metal tail rotor blades on the 109/119 series with a chunky looking composite blade.
Does anyone know if this is correct, and if so, when?

[MAXIMUS-1]

Quite correct mid 2004 anticipated introduction.

[HeloEagle]

They have been promising those to us for our A109E Powers since late 2001. We have had several blade crack incidents...hopefully they will deliver one of these days.

[Head Turner]

Maybe the wait won't be long.
The blades are awaiting ENAC approval, so I believe.
There's also a rumor that there is a skidded version of the Power in the works.

[Autorotate]

Now a skidded version of the Power would be one I would like to see. I hated the old A109C series with a passion but think the Power and Power Elite are one of the sexiest helicopters out there.

Had a good look over G-MOMO at the Air Harrods hangar, thanks to Robin Renton, and the cockpit setup is awesome. Looks like a very nice helo to fly.

:E

[HeloEagle]

Agusta has been flying a skidded version of the A109E Power since Feb 2001, as I saw it then with my own eyes in Italy during the factory transition course. According to them is saves 500 pounds of empty weight, so I am not sure why they are dragging their feet with it, as I am sure they would sell more in the States if they would use the skids...I know I sure wish ours had skids!

[Head Turner]

HelioEagle, it seems that the UK has similar needs for a skidded Power. I know of two likely sales. AGUSTA CAN YOU HEAR US?

[HeloEagle]

Unfortunately Agusta does not seem to be very customer oriented especially if you compare them to Bell, Sikorsky or MD. Hopefully they will bring the skids and the new composite blades to the market soon however.

[Lu Zuckerman]

To: HeloEagle

Be careful what you say about Agusta. I made several comments several months ago and some ass bite that works for Agusta notified their management and now I am being sued.


:E :E :E

[MAXIMUS-1]

Having read a few of the comments regarding the robustness of 109 and whether it is suited to harsher duties over and above the VIP role surely something must be said with regard to the fundamental design of the 109 from its original purpose.

The 109 was originally designed to a military specification with the emphasis on the airframe strength. Following the incidents in the UK involving the EMS and Police 109 one cannot argue with the integrity of the aircraft hull. Perhaps this was one of the major factors upon which Dyfed Powys Police made their decision.

Furthermore the 109 has been used by the UK military since four were donated by the Argentinian Army in 1982. Many thanks by the way.

A response on the subject of wheels versus skids issue from a special forces type person involved with the 109 would be very interesting. Perhaps such a person would also have the authority to comment on the operational capability of the 109 in robust conditions.

[JoBurg]

Thomas Coupling, let me correct some errors on your post re the size of Force areas and the need for a 109 to improve response times.
Checking the latest police almanac clearly shows that the Dyfed Powys force area is larger than any area covered by any air support unit in England and Wales.
E.g
Dyfed Powys 2,704,305
North Wales 1,554,858
North East 2,124,132
Devon + Cornwall 2,530,516
Chiltern 2,093,073
South+East Wales 897,463
Central Counties 2,506,891
North Mids 1,183,775
(All figures shown in Acres)
The Dyfed Powys area is over 52% of Wales.
The only bigger force area is Strathclyde in Scotland.

Furthermore the argument put forward re commonality of type holds no water. North Wales, like some others may have used the Sheep approach and copied what others have bought. Surely what is more important is selecting an aircraft that meets the operational needs of the Police Authorities and public that it is to serve. When spending public money the selection process should be robust enough to stand scrutiny that the product is fit for task, not just buy the aircraft that the chief pilot or UEO prefers. Although many units assist each other with mutual aid they are generally all independently funded and run. Commonality of type would currently offer no operational or financial benefit.
I have it on good authority that Dyfed Powys committed to a rigorous selection process comparing all available types against a detailed mission profile that had been approved by the local ACPO. The operational capability, combined with the purchase costs and ongoing running cost were all taken into consideration.
The 109 was found to be by far the most capable compared to the mission profile AND have a cheaper purchase price (including a full NVG compatible cockpit, NOT available on the 135 or 902)

Given the recent history the force had had with their previous 109, the safety and capability of the type would have been the subject of considerable scrutiny by pilots, observers, ACPO and "bean counters" alike, before deciding to buy another. The fact that they have is testament to the advantages in performance and price that it offers.

[PANews]

Regardless of the content of your post I note that you have changed your handle to a brand new one before posting that JoBerg.

You really should build yourself up a spare for ventures like that!

[Thomas coupling]

Joburger: I stand corrected re the geographical size of your force area, shame 90% of the population live in only 30% of it!

I also have it from first hand knowledge that this a/c came third on the list of choices BEHIND the 135 and 902, to do the job. And it was a long way behind in third place.
Do you honestly expect me (or anyone else for that matter) to accept that this force decided that their mission profile was so far removed from 99% of the rest of the country that they had to select a very different a/c to do the job.
I would suggest that us sheep might just possibly have realised that there was some merit in:
modern JAR 27 capable helos
purpose built for the job in hand
common ground in sharing experiences with all the other sheep
User groups for sheep
ample relief sheep to fly the a/c
ample type rated examiners

It came down, quite simply (because we are after all, sheep) to money - plain and simple. Bean counters rule...and always will, sorry.

[MightyGem]

And there was me thinking that they bought their original 109 in a fit of pique after a barney with the suppliers of their first choice. :E

[JoBurg]

Tommy "bah bah" Coupler : Whoever your contact who says they have "first hand knowledge" of the selection scores is, don't pay them, as they are giving you duff gen. I've seen it in black and white and the 109 out-scored both the other two on performance and price.

I think we have established that due to the size and demographics of the Dyfed powys area their mission profile will vary from many more urban forces.
However, I accept that the mission profile is not that different from many other forces who have chosen another type, e.g a 135.
The difference is that senior staff in many of those forces air support units a.k.a. The Sheep, Chief Pilot etc. chose the aircraft first and then wrote their selection criteria/mission profile to ensure that it was biased to the one they wanted.
Of course the reason many do this is that they see their neighbours shiny new toys and make the mistake of believing the marketing bumpf which claims great things. Unfortunately, many find that, unlike Ronseal, it doesn't do what it says on the tin. The promised increase in performance over their old squirrels is minimal and they can't actually achieve some elements of the mission profile.
When they find this out it is too late and they daren't let on as their senior officers and bean counters would turn them into lamb chops.
Dyfed's first 109 came about after withdrawing from an initial order for a 135. At the time of that order, the 135 in the police role was merely a concept and the aircrafts performance/weight was projected. It sounded like the best thing since sliced bread, but as the project moved on it became clear that the final product was not going to get anywhere near the promised increase in usable payload and endurance. It was brave of the then Chief Constable to avoid being another sheep and cancel the order, changing to an aircraft that could achieve the necessary performance.
Four years on and still the 135 struggled to reach the first promised levels of performance. Even the T2 model still falls way short of a 109 in endurance, useable payload, speed, tail rotor authority etc etc (and the 109 is cheaper)

I'm sure their are some marketing men out their who will tell you different, but you've dealt with them long enough to know the score !

Hows the promised 135 NVG conversion coming on by the way ? 5 years and still counting some say ?

[Thomas coupling]

Gloves off, here we go:

Do you know what the mission profile requirement is for our 135?

Do you know what our endurance is?

What is your mission profile, such that it requires a ferrari imposter?

What is your endurance?

I was there when DP fell out with a certain maintenance organisation remember, and I know EXACTLY what went wrong. Be very careful how you interpret that one :suspect:

2 yrs research went into the procurement process and at the time there were NO other new generation operators out there. I most certainly DO NOT take the credit for a massive tidal wave of similar decisions within the industry unless you believe your own drivel.
Believe it or not, it's not ONLY what it must do that counts....it's very much running costs too. The proof of the pudding as they say....

Can/will the 109 consistently achieve a 98% serviceability rate that the 13 (135) forces are experiencing to date? Mmmm...............

Of course the Agusta can do the job. There is no dispute over that. BUT can it provide an overall package of efficiency? I think not. Time will tell.
Joking aside......do you really really think 13 (135) and 11 (902) police forces didn't ever question their methods re the procurement of possibly their most expensive asset(s). Then ask yourself this: why has no-one else gone down the same road as you, billy no-mates ;)

I do like the analogy of buying because of the robustness of the machine from your a previous experience(s). Two questions:
(a) are you expecting to crash again soon?
(b) Do you actually know the crashworthy rating of an Agusta 109E power?

Ewe should know better and stop bleating.

[STANDTO]

T.C.

See , I was right about Autogyros!

:D

[Helinut]

No love lost in them their Welsh Vallies then................. :) :)

[JoBurg]

98% Serviceability, HA HA HA, thats the best one i've heard in a long time.
Obviously everyone is quite happy with all the problems with the Fadec and the Aris pot failures.

You've fallen in the trap of believing the marketing mens stats again Tommy.

Next you'll be nominating Macs for a Quality of Service award !

No one plans to crash but if the worst should happen look at recent police history before choosing.
A. 109, stayed intact, everyone walked away, no injuries.
B. 135, Disintegrated, serious injuries, (sadly)
I know what i'd rather be in. :ok:

[widgeon]

Hmm 109 everyone walked away , are we talking of an autorotation here . If i recall the accident report on the EC135 in Scotland said that the accident would have been fatal in any other type of helicopter .

I quote from report 8/2003

Given the severity of the impact and the amount of damage to the helicopter, it was surprising that the injuries to the occupants were not more severe. The fact that they were not illustrates the effectiveness of the latest, more stringent crashworthiness requirements contained in JAR 27 in improving the survivability of occupants of light helicopters in a severe impact.

and later
Despite being severely damaged in the impact, the structure of the helicopter had offered the occupants considerable protection from injury and it was clear that the more stringent crashworthiness design requirements of JAR 27 had therefore made a significant contribution to the crew's survival, in what might otherwise have been a fatal accident.

Can you provide link to a equivalant A109 accident that people survived ?.

[PANews]

I think I can claim to be a fan of JAR/FAR 27 and therefore this link might just have some bearing on this thread....

http://www.nps.gov/grca/media/16oct03.htm

Early days I know, but this is just one of many instances that 27 has proved to be a lifesaver....

LOTS of photos. Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!

[Helinut]

When JoBurg gets around to nominating his 109E crash to illustrate the crashworthiness of that type, he has plenty of choice too ........................... :eek: :E

[john du'pruyting]

"Mind you it busts the myth about Notars never having loss of tail rotor authority!"

I didn't know there was such a myth, it must be one of those urban ones...

Or lost in the Myths of time:p

[STANDTO]

Airbags! Air bags for helicopters inc.

Hereby copyrighted. Big airbag system. Just before you hopelessly hit the dirt, you press a big orange button ( Copyright on Big Orange recognised) Around 50 airbags should do it, methinks, all powered by compressed nitrogen,so it will blow out the fire. Small enough not to put too much of a weight penalty, but blimey, when its all going wrong, very welcome

This idea is now for sale for £ 2 million. Please PM me if you work for a major Helo builder or are a venture capitalist.

Definitely of interest to the Police where H&S has officially gone mad.

Must say, I never thought I'd see a " My chopper crashes better than your chopper" thread.

[Thomas coupling]

Fadec never grounded an EC135, we manage it in the air. And 2: ARIS pots keep on failing, we keep on using the spares, both of these are in the stats quoted.

Now c'mon Jo 90 show me yours:eek:

It hurts doesn't it, deep down, beyond this crusty front of yours ...to have to accept that perhaps, just perhaps.....................you really are the BLACK sheep of the family.

Nobody wants yesterdays model anymore...there's too much of a revolution going on in new generation helicopters.

Oh well, you pays your money...you takes your chance sunshine.

[PANews]

I never said I believed the myth about tail rotor authority!

The 900 comes from the same factory [design team] as the Hughes 269/300A .... early models always had trouble with t/r authority .... so they designed the 269/300C and that went a long way to solving that problem.... and we still have the Schweizer S300 to prove the worth of their work.

I can only guess the same team got sort of nostalgic and came up with Notar!

;)

[Notar fan]

O.K. PA News I'll take the bait. You're right, it is early days yet. How does a Notar have loss of tail rotor authority?? It looks like a pretty crashworthy aircraft to me.
Its a nice change to see a helicopter crash at the Grand Canyon and NOT burst into flames.

[PANews]

Ah, he lives!

I thought you had gone away and changed your name to Joberg with a new type to champion!

Seriously though the NPS crash showed exactly what I was saying relating to crashworthiness - and much of the airframe came out of the dink pretty well. Though before you claim that difference between that and the Scottish EC135 means something I believe that the angles and speeds were undoubtedly different! But both crews came out alive thanks to JAR27.

According to the NTSB preliminary report on the NPS prang something [perhaps a control rod to something that provides the 'puff' to the tail] 'went' and the pilot lost control. On that basis alone [and as we all know it proves nothing at this stage of any investigation] it appears that he lost tail rotor authority - you know the tail was not doing what he, the pilot, wanted it to do!

And using the term Generically - before you get too clever...!!!

When manouevring I think it is fair to say that any unexpected loss in tail authority [be it a conventional t/r delaminating, a failing notar fan or the directional control dustbin parting company, or even a fenestron getting all mixed up] will leave the pilot stuck ........ without the tail rotor authority the pilot might reasonably expect ..... quite predictable no matter how rare.

Of course you can always blame it on the pilot .......

I guess if Hollywood had anything to do with it the whole thing would have gone up in a napalm fireball.... they have not read JAR27 there!

[Huwey]

Although only a mere 22 driver and inexperienced in police aviation matters, I do remember reading sometime ago about a big increase in the level of noise complaints increasing when the 109 was 1st introduced to police work in Wales as a replacement for the previous type.

The noise signture a particular machine makes does must surely be a factor used when an ASU makes a choice on a particular machine.

Other possible choices are also absent from UK and other european ASU's are machines such as the bell 230/430 (as far as I'm aware) with its noise signature also a possible factor.

[John Eacott]

Reports from pilots attending the factory to pick up their shiny new Powers, there appears to be a "stretched" Agusta A109 undergoing trials.

About a 2ft fuselage stretch in the cabin area, totally new main rotor head & blades, new (about time) tail rotor system, and uprated engines.

Now, if they could only give it some real disposable payload to go with the looks and the speed, it may finally meet the promises ;)

Rumoured to be due for the market when 109E sales tail off.

[John Bicker]

"S"
Talk of an "EC" type rear end as well to address the T/R problems, which are ongoing. Look at your T/R Blades EVERY post, preflight and turnaround.

Flew an Elite yesterday and also see the 139 on occasions.

Should know more as I live only 15 minutes from Vergiate, but there are distractions and the spy network is busy!

[Head Turner]

There are new composite tail rotor blades in the pipeline to be a retro fit for 109/119. When? Don't know.

There has also been spotted a skidded Power or maybe it was a twin 119.

[John Eacott]

A picture of the skid equipped 109E was in a trade mag that I saw today, along with an article relating to a military purchase in SE Asia of 109E's. Strange look, and probably able to give a few much needed kilo's extra payload ;)

[ppheli]

Head Turner - the "twin 119" has been in production for years. It's called the 109.....

[Head Turner]

pphelli yes I do off course know that there is a 109 with 2 engines and wheels. I also know that the fuselage of the 119 is different to that of the 109. A 2 engined 119 is quite different to the 109.

Now to follow this thread further it would appear from comments about the selection of the 109 by a certain Welsh Police Force that the 109 is not at all liked for the many reasons stated. Noisy, expensive, not too easy to see out of, CG concerns etc.

I have done police work in the past with the AS355 models and therefore cannot comment on how much better the latest EC135/MD902/A109E models are.

From what I hear, none seem to be ideal, suffering power requirements below expected criterior/excess weight and poor endurance.

Until a dedicated machine is built (which will be never) I think that each police authority can, for their own reasons, choose the one they prefer. Ideal or otherwise.

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.

[ppheli]

Bit more information gleaned from Italy..

The "109S" (S=Stretched) involves a stretch of no more than 30cm, I assume that is 30cm on the Elite dimensions and not the standard Power. Also, the flight testing started in 2001 !!!

The skidded Power idea was dropped over a year ago with flight testing not completed. It was known as the CFA project - presume these were the Italian initials for "fixed landing gear". The aircraft involved is MSN 11055 reg I-PCFA

[PANews]

It would be interesting to see a world wide count of Police helicopters by type.


Such lists exist but they do not tell all the story. They can suggest that most countries have tried all the manufacturing options, little more.

In its basic form you would probably come up with a number crunch that might suggest that perhaps the Bell OH58 or the OH6 appeared more numerous in police services worldwide but that might hide the truth.

I know of a number of 'police' air support units that have as many as a dozen aircraft on their books ... many are just numerical wrecks that will never fly again.

I am also aware that some of those same units fly in daylight only [because they cannot sustain the purchase of night role equipment] and others that fly at night only.

Then there are some of those multi-aircraft units that have just two pilot/mechanics to operate the whole lot. The total number of hours operated by such a unit might reach 1,000 pa but some of these airframes for just a handfull of hours towards that fleet total under 1,000 pa.

I know that this is a very selective example, but how can you sensibly compare such a set up with a UK police air unit that flies 1100 hours on a single high quality modern airframe?

It is the old story '.... how long is your piece of string... '

It will be at best misleading.

Perhaps the nearest we might get is to try and equate flight hours per square mile? One single state police aircraft in the State of Oregon does not match the numbers of State Police in Massachusetts.

[turboshaft]

Flight and Forecast have both reported on the A109S over the past year:

- 440 lb increase in MTOW
- P&WC PW207 donks
- Composite, scimitar-shaped TR blades
- Possible roll-out at HAI 2004


Cheers,
T/shaft

[BlenderPilot]

A109Elite I think its called, I had breakfast this morning with a friend of mine who is giving up his A109Power to switch to this new aircraft, its cabin is somewhat larger, the seats have been pushed back, but the main difference to him has been it has a "floating xmsn" something similar to the B230 or LongRanger's its supposed to make the ride much smoother.

[Kalif]

The difference the Elite has over the 'basiic' Power is the rear seat back moved a bit to the rear; no more leg room but a enhanced rear seat.
Floating transission is a bit misleading. The Elite has 'Fluidlastic Pylon Absorbers' on the two front transmission mountings. This removes some of the transmission 'buzz' that filter down into the airframe on the Power.
Good, powerful machine, juust lacks leg room fro the pax and has a fwd CofG problem.

[John Eacott]

The Elite vs the Power: The rear pax seat is raked back to give more headroom, but at the loss of 60-70lt fuel capacity. Also, landing lamps built into the stub wings/undercarriage fairings, pax step on starboard side that retracts with the gear, lock on the nose access (and pretty paint on the locks!), different avionics suite, storm lights for both pilots, and the main transmission dampers. The rear pax window is noticeably wider, to accommodate the changed rear seat position.

I haven't noticed any fwd CoG problems, but payload is still very average. Empty weight & fuel burn are the same as my BK117, but MAUW is 500kg less. Full fuel leaves only c160kg for pilot and pax :rolleyes:

[Head Turner]

Some more technical rumours. 109 will have a 3000 kg AUW once mods to u/c have been approved. Which if true would suggest a 1000 kg payload. 640 for full fuel, which leaves 360 for the human cargo. Which is quite respecful.

[AstraMike]

Actually, there is an FAA STC for 3,000 kgs MTOW in the works, it may, or may not be applicable to the A109E that is in the hands of the Italian gods, the issue being that Agusta will want the aircraft to land at MTOW resulting in a requirement to beef up landing gear (oleo rate?) Performance will also likely be an issue.

[swerve]

Just wandering if Dyfed still plan to use the same pilot that crashed the last A109 for them - has it all just gone quiet and passed on now?
What happened to him

[Bearintheair]

Noise signature certainly was one of the major considerations when Sussex purchased their own aircraft.

[oxi]

Do any of you guys operate IFR in 109's, if you do how do they go and whats the auto-pilot like ??????

[John Eacott]

Oxi,

Yes, and the Sperry is excellent. Only single channel for the yaw, so a little judicious pressure sometimes needed to keep the ball in the middle, but otherwise a delight to operate.

Fully coupled ILS down to 60ft on rad alt can't be bad in anyone's book, even if you can't use it (legally...:cool: )

:ok:

[Helipolarbear]

JE----Thats 40' coupled on the ILS!
The A109E is a terrific machine for high speed handling & SPIFR.
It is very solid in Cb build up, coupled or hands on.
The AP doesn't kick off with mild yaw excursions like the B430!
If you choose your Alt/temp conditions well in the IFR cruise you'll get better than published burn rates. I've had 4 hours endurance based on Fuel Flow indications.
It has teething problems like all machines that are relatively new, but is great value for what it does!
On the other hand, in the Police roll it is not the best in the low speed area. T/R authority is lacking with too much Tq change for quick input demand. Response is expectantly normal, but not riveting and dynamic like the
135 or 902's.
I'd say this Welsh deal is probably driven based on the amount of spin and discount given in the sale. Consider who is involved.
Unless they intend doing lots of IFR in the Police roll (Can't, imagine the cops have a need for that---very little community contribution), I think time will show them their expensive decision will be alot more than they had planned or were told.

If the Power isn't cruising at the high end of the Tq band, (as it was designed to do) it will have all sorts of problems, and yep, Trans P & T will be one. Engine opr temps on the number 1 particularly, will get the pilots attention. If they are constantly operating in a wet and humid/sea area ( most of Wales)..watch the corrosion costs spiral. The DAU's ( Data Aquisition Unit ) have problems too, outboard Dampner bearings, ECS, Landing gear and a lot of non-warranted (after 1 year) items................. other than that...it's a great and comfortable corporate cruise ship for short CEO's and little people! With a small fortune to spend!
But, hey, they get to go to their destination faster than most!!!
What you see is what you get. A very quick, powerful speed demon! But nothing else...certainly not utility....someone mentioned the original design was for the mil....HELLO?....What the Belgium's....they had to be bribed to buy it!!!! Even a 20 year old AH-1S would smoke the A109 in gunnery and versatilty on the battle field! Utility it is not...and I have a good idea about them....flew the UH-60 for a long time.....now thats UTILITY!
And it looks good too!!!! Fun to fly for pilots who want to FLY!
Not for cops chasing ground or surveillance! Bad choice Dudes!
;)

[John Eacott]

HPB,

We're both wrong, the book says 50ft :rolleyes: (RFM A109E 7-31 Rev 5)

Most of my IFR was on the A & AII, maybe the earlier Sperry had a different rad alt parameter?

[Helipolarbear]

JE...The book does advise on 50' level off, but the calibration is not perfect as you know. I got down to 40' with the last 2 109E's flown. Flew a few C models and MII's. Level off's at 50 would be the average. Great system ....every heli should have one!!!!! God Bless Sperry!
Fly Safe & Happy Xmas:cool:

[swerve]

Any news on pilotage from the welsh boys yet - still trusting the old boys?:

[Thomas coupling]

Swerve: are you alleging that the pilot was totally to blame for what happened that snowy christmas day?
Are you in FULL possession of the facts?
Interesting couple of 'prods' you have made at their unit?

[swerve]

Not pointing any fingers - just read the accident report and make your own mind up! Then ask yourself if 99% of profesional pilots would make that error and get away with it / carry on working at the same unit as if nothing had happened - maybe only in darkest Wales:

[Head Turner]

The 109E is still fimly attached to the hangar floor awaiting the greenies to wire up the nightsun. Apparently the mk2 nightsun was not pilot friendly and so it was back to mk1 and the wiring has had to be re-done.
The other modification has been the fitting of a warning notice. Not too sure what it says but something to do with the fuel system!

[Yarba]

We are looking at getting a small VIP helicopter for inter city transport and although used normally to Bell and Sikorsky products it has been suggested we look at Agusta 109E because is fast and looks quite good. We've been offered a nice A109E with the PW206C engines, but before I go further I was wondering if any PPruners have experience of this type, because I'm not sure it will perform well enough in the heat. I think the Arrius engines are more powerful, but there is good price for a PW engined one available in Europe now. It's planned to use it to JAR type performance limits. My question is how the performance would be affected when operating at average temperature at sea level of 32 degrees C. What would Category A twin engine take off weight be at that temperature? Also what is single engine performance like? I just need to know about what would be maximum weight to fly one engine at 1000 feet at 30 degrees C at Vy at maximum continuous single engine power.
What is reliability like with this type? Naturally sales agents always come out with great answers, but I'd like to know from anyone who has real experience of the type and will give an honest answer.
Anyone can give some answers, thanks a lot. :ok:

[HeloEagle]

You would not be disappointed with the performance of the A109E with the PW 206C. I have been flying them for over three years under more demanding circumstances than the aircraft was ever designed for, and at 3,000kg takeoff weight. We have been flying them off the back of ships, in tropical conditions doing counter-drug operations. Power and performance has never been an issue, but cabin size and maintainence support has been. It has a very small cabin, and support from Agusta is no where near the level of support you get from Bell or Sikorsky. The aircraft is fast and sexy as long as you don't hang floats, FLIR and searchlights from it, but it slows down in a hurry if you do. Do yourself a favor and fly in the A109E first to see if you are comfortable in it, as it doesn't have much headroom or legroom and that wouldn't be good for VIPs. If I had the money, I would buy a S-76 or Bell 430 instead...just my humble opinion.

[AstraMike]

Yes, I guess that's about right. The Prat engine dose not offer quite as much power in hot & high...on paper, but it is reliable power! Also do your sums re payload/range: how many pax - how far. If you fill the L/R tanks you will end up with a pilot and overnight bag and a lady passenger, not much more and don't believe what anyone tells you about empty weight, the published EW is before any "options" such as interior are included, sit down and look at the Weight & Balance. And there is a 109E for sale in Europe with NO AC, make sure it has an ECU!

30C HIGE about 2660Kg
30C HOGE about 2300Kg
One Engine Inoperative 2.5 min Power

Cat A WAT Limit (Clear Area) 30C MTOW about 1,000ft
40C MTOW about -350 ft

Cat A WAT Limit 15x15m Ground Based Helipad or 20 x 20m Elevated Helipad 30C MTOW about -300 ft
27C MTOW about SL

Depending on how you read the graphs

Fun Eh?

[MAXIMUS-1]

The 109 Power performance is predominantly streets ahead of those aircraft considered in the same (light twin) class. The comment made above comparing the cabin size of the 430 and the S76 against the power is not comparing apples to apples. Those aircraft are signifcantly more expensive.

Mike is correct the manufacturers figures tend to be on the biased side but generally a standard Power wieghs around 1970 kgs and the Elite comes out at around 2030 Kgs. Most people agree that the useful load is not great, however when the speed of the 109 is introduced into the equation the majority end up choosing the 109. Anyone visiting Cheltenham last week will have to admit they are popular.

[Head Turner]

A while back all sorts of interesting rumours were winging about on such things as new tail rotor blades, a replacement for the 109 and upgrades to the 109.
What's happening to the good rumours?
Anyone know what's on going on in the skunk works at Malpensa?

[Shawn Coyle]

My experience with Agusta is that they don't announce anything until it's ready.
I was in Malpensa several years ago to fly the A129 for Rotor and Wing. I had been working on a FADEC equipped A109 for what was going to be the upgraded A109. The engine I had been working on wasn't chosen, but there on the ramp was what turned out later to be the A109 Power. I was quite anxious to write something about it, and asked Agusta for permission.
"Not now" was the answer - we're not ready.
It was about 6 months later that the Power was announced.
So, there are things being worked on. I've seen 'em, and they looked impressive, but that's all I'll say.
They are ironing out the bugs.

[SASless]

Shawn,

If they are working on tail rotor problems...."bugs" doesn't quite do the problem justice. Seems like quite a few crashes of 109's lately....granted some of them are directly attributable to pilot error.

[Head Turner]

Possible announcements at Farnborough Air Show

MD might have something also.

[Eurobolkow]

SASless

It would appear that you are trying to imply something in your post but I think you will find this implication to be wholly incorrect.

As we all know the normal tail rotor configuration is actually safer in flight due to superior authority.

The question posed on the thread was in relation to Agusta developments and I am sure they are working hard on both the 139 and other aircraft improvements.

[Eurobolkow]

For those not at Farnborough yesterday Agusta unveiled a new version of the 109 called the 'Grand'. Stats sound very impressive: MGW 3175 Kgs, 1100Kgs payload, increased cabin dimensions, PW207C engines and composite tail rotor blades.

Although there was only an EMS mock-up there yesterday it was said that they are well into FAA and EASA certification and we will see this aircraft in the air before the end of next year.

Anyone else see the mock-up? Any comments?

[Head Turner]

This should send ripples through the Eurocopter factory.

It also has a larger cabin, bigger cockpit doors, smaller diameter rotor by using the A119 system(modified) and other bits.

The tail rotor is wider chord and shorter blades and rumoured to be quieter.

Also said to be quicker.

4 million Euros

[whatsarunway]

How much is a new bell 430?
come to think of it how much is a new 109power?

[Eurobolkow]

No idea what a 430 costs these days and dont know if Agusta even plan to continue with the standard Power as I had heard that all new 'Powers' with be built to Elite airframe spec.

Head Turner is right, this new model should really shake up the market place as its competitors (perhaps now the wrong word!!) will not be anywhere near on performance capabilities.

Speaking of which our usually vocal 135 appreciation society seem to have lost their voice!!!!!!

[StevieTerrier]

Sounds wonderful. Unfortunately, it will still be painted and assembled by Italians.....

[ginganinja]

JJB Sports have their 430 up for sale 4 years old a snip at $4,750,000

[Ian Corrigible]

Didn't JJB just buy a new 430 ?

I/C

[ppheli]

Paint... there's nothing to stop you ordering one "green" you know - the latest one in the UK for EuroSkyLink was, and then got its paint done here.

JJB - yes, they should get a sparkly new 430 v.soon - see Bell press releases

[Thomas coupling]

Eurobolkow - give us a chance to comment, at least :hmm:

Interesting development, assuming it to be accurate. If so, then more 'power' to their elbow, because competition is what is needed and this could be the start of something stimulating as many police operators are looking (shortly) at replacing their 'new generation' helos.
Shame it's still the same old airframe though:oh:

[Eurobolkow]

TC : Thanks for your comments and I agree that any new developments should be welcomed and can only be good for the market place. It will be interesting to see the response of the other manufacturer's and also to see if the 'S' enjoys more success than the 'E' in the Police Market?

I must pick you up on one point however as to suggest that the 'S' airframe is the same as the 'A' model is simply not correct. Sure they have the same basic shape and profile (perhaps because it was such an aerdynamically efficient design in the first place) but the airframe of the latest generation will bear little resemblance to the original.

This philosophy of continual improvement seems to be the opposite of the cover up an old airframe with a new shape mentality employed by some other companies!!

[SGAS]

After searching a lot, I have found some pictures of the new Grand here (http://www.dgualdo.it/helics-a109s.htm)

I am not going to comment about Italian craftsmanship, but they really know how to make good looking machines (no mater if we are talking about cars, bikes, planes, or….helicopters!)
:ok:

[SASless]

The Italian built and painted CH-47's I flew were beautiful compared to the American built models....granted it took three times as long to build one....but by golly the door shut like a sleek sports car.

[HeliEng]

WOW!

That looks VERY smart. You are absolutly right SGAS, the Italians really have got the design edge.

Compare that to that other press release picture of the new Bell abortion of an helicopter. The Bell doesn't even come close.

Very impressed!!! ;)

[Thomas coupling]

All it needs now is a fenestron to protect the public (in this 'duty of care' era) and then you might just have something..........................................:cool:

[tecpilot]

Interesting development! And long expected. It could bring new wind into the corporate business. But i didn't believe the ship could change the EMS market. The A 109 had allways problems with the small distance between rotors and ground, important in the EMS business. The speed isn't so interesting at operation areas round about 100km with the short legs. The "Power" A 109 had a lot of problems with tailboom and fuselage, due to vibrations and overstress. And Agusta needs every day a mechanic. Thats the reasons why the REGA sold the half of their A-109 K2 fleet and changed to EC 145. The Hot'n High performance is better with Agusta, but they need it only on some stations. The 900, 135, 145 have still the better cabin. The price is really high, but in the line with all the new ships.

[Eurobolkow]

Tec-pilot

The 109 has never had any problems with the height of the main rotor for EMS or any other operations. If you are referring to the tail rotor then this is also not an issue due to the very quick shut down time and even less of an issue in an EMS role where the crew are trained and familiar with the standard loading procedure.

As for speed of response not being an issue then it is difficult to see how this statement fits in with the 'Golden Hour' philosophy and may be difficult to explain to someone who could have been saved if the aircraft could have been there a minute earlier!!

The Power didnt have alot of tailboom problems as you state, in fact it had one, which was identified and dealt with under warranty in a swift manner. In fact all Powers after 2002 had the modifications to strenghten the particular area built in as standard so was never an issue.

As for your statement to say that the Power needs to see an engineer every day, well quite frankly that is a load of old nonsense. The A and C models were pretty labour intensive but the E is an extremely reliable machine. If you need proof speak to the US Coast Guard and ask for their availability stats.

Finally check your cabin internal volumes and I think you will find the S will have the largest cabin in the class. The 135 and 902 give a better perception of space due to the adjoined baggage area whereas the 109 has a seperate baggage area in the tail boom.

TC:

Doesnt 'duty of care' also include ensuring the crew are given the most capable aircraft. If so then when the weather gets rough I know which system I would prefer in a 40knot crosswind!!!

[Thomas coupling]

Hi Eurobolkow:

thanks for that,
some observations if I may....

I agree with tecpilot about rotor distance. The exposed tail rotor is a serious problem with EMS landing sites. 'Untrained' personnel milling around the back of the a/c are exposed. Not so with the new generation helos (902/135 and hi tail 145).

Cabin ergonomics are no where near as good as current models. Front and back seat are effectively 'cut off' from each other - bad CRM.

Short radius ops - speed is not different enough to make a difference. The golden hour is a myth!

We (as yet) have had no xwind problems with the 135. I've flown it rearwards and sideways well in excess of 40kts with no discernable LTE.

[tecpilot]

Eurobolkow

The high of the main rotor is lower than on the other competive models. The damped tripple wheel gear with its 2 lateral buckling axis brings the pivoted rotorblades additionally near the ground. Have you ever seen a A-109 in the mountains? Take your head down! The shutdown time is absolutely unimportant for a tail rotor strike :) :) :) If you comes to ground on final or touchdown you will have a tailrotor strike or not. Tail rotor strikes on the ground within the cooling time are very rare...

I know personally 2 A109 Power with more than a single tailboom change or high maintenance action. The visibly signs of the tailboom vibrations are the common change of the pos lights.

the 109 has a seperate baggage area in the tail boom.

Nobody needs in HEMS seperate baggage areas. You need all the equipment within the flight and easy to get with a single grip from you seat! Thats also a big problem on the AS 350/355 or 206/407 series. Or will you ever land to get the needed?

To the speed, adopted a A109 with a cruising speed of 150kt and a BK 117 with 125kt (both VNE's are higher) the A109 get an advantage of 2,4 min on a 30 miles distance. Thats the usually distance in Europe.

Please understand me right, i'm interested in the new ship, but thats my observations... Obervations also Agusta could made, but i know the development of a complete new ship like the 900 / 135 is really expensive. The "power" is one of the best hot'n high twin, but the market needs also some other things.

[Eurobolkow]

TC and Tec Pilot:

Thanks to both of you for your comments.

It would be pointless of me to argue that an exposed tail rotor is as safe as a notar or fenestron when clearly it can never be. My point was merely that there are plus and minus points to each design and generally speaking the incident rate with exposed tail rotor is so low as for it not to be a significant issue.

Also please dont get me wrong I am not trying to put down either the 135 or 902, I think they are both very capable machines and again have their good and bad points.

I guess the overall message is that any helicopter is a compromise, the question is have Agusta chosen the right compromises in the right key performance area's to make this new version a challenger in the utility role.

Tec Pilot: Your experience seems to be very specifically of mountain region operation and thus I assume your comments are well founded and well made.

TC: Just two points of clarification, the co-pilot seat in the 109 is reversible for HEMS ops so the front and back are not cut off per say and also the current 109E and this 'S' are classed as new generation helos.

Interesting discussion as always!!

[Head Turner]

Is the Grande a rival to the EC145. The pricing must be very similar at least and they seem to be competitors.

[PANews]

Quoted extract from Eurobolkow....

I must pick you up on one point however as to suggest that the 'S' airframe is the same as the 'A' model is simply not correct. Sure they have the same basic shape and profile (perhaps because it was such an aerdynamically efficient design in the first place) but the airframe of the latest generation will bear little resemblance to the original.

Are you stating :-

That the 109S is a completely new airframe built to JAR27/29 standards?

That the 109S has in the cabin JAR27/29 standard stroking crashworthy seats?

I think the words the Agusta paperwork uses is 'crash resistent' and that rear seat is the same old fuel tank that has no stroking capability beyond that endowed by the cushion filling.

The Grand will win on its undoubted merit not on misinterpretation of the airframe features of that mock-up.

[gadgetguru]

may i ask something from left field, i am only a student, so don't laugh too hard.

has there ever been a concerted effort to design a purpose built EMS helo?

granted the helo is destined to be multi-functional aircraft , but has anyone, as an entity (EMS pilots & crew in particular) sat down & collectively said "this is what we need/require from the aircraft", then passed that to any/all helo manufacturers.

I can appreciate the process that an organisation must have to go through in its search for the next replacement A/C to replace an aging unit(s)

why isn't there a machine that specifically meets the needs of the EMS community outright, is it such a difficult solution that no one machine could be designed, by a prudent manufacturer, to accomplish such an obviously high demand role. Surely EMS would have to be the 2nd biggest market to the obvious military troop movers?

similiar to the A-10 i suppose, the purpose was they found the gun they wanted to out-range the ZSU-23-4, then made it fly.

in this case we obviously need an ambulance

how many times have you heard a woman say: "this kitchen must have been designed by a man".

& i suppose more pertinantly if it hasn't already been done - why not, & if it has, did they (A/C manuf.) listen?

just a thought (from the outside looking in).

[Eurobolkow]

PA News:

Perhaps you need to read what I actually said again!!

I did not mention JAR 27/29 at any stage and since when did the seats become part of the airframe. What I said was the airframe will bear little resemblance to the A model except for the overall concept and shape and this is correct. The cabin door structure is revised signifcantly, as are the cockpit doors and surrounds, the PW207 require new mounting structure, the tail boom includes the strenghtening mods and the undercarriage attachments are revised significantly.

[PANews]

My apologies, I was taking my lead from TCs comment on the 'same old airframe' - I assumed [perhaps incorrectly] that HE was talking about the 'same old airframe' as in the A109E Power as opposed to the same old airframe of 1978 vintage [the A].

Anyway that resolves whether you were suggesting JAR27/29, you were not. On the mock-up it was the seats that confirmed that, just a clue but worth noting.

I suspect that if the manufacturers [AW] had really been able to 'start again' they would also have deepened the fuselage to give more headroom in the back as well as gone sideways. Policemen are traditionally tall and even the back row of the 135 and 145 are severely challenged in that respect. The only constant headroom winner is the 900.

[Eurobolkow]

PA News:

I agree entirely that a clean sheet design would probably have included an further increased cabin height.

It is interesting to note however that the figures I have been given in the past by the various manufacturers seem contradictory to the general perception (but I am open to correction if these cabin height figures are incorrect):

EC135: 126cm
MD902: 124cm
A109E: 128cm

Any observations on the Grand from the info you have to hand?