Alitalia down to 20 days, Pilots don't rule out strike action. (merged)

[skibeagle]

Business/Finance News
08/24/2004 12:16:36 EST CORRADO GIAMBALVO/AP Photo
Alitalia Chief Says Time Is Running Out


ROME - State carrier Alitalia could be faced with collapse within 20
days without the approval a restructuring plan that would allow the
airline to tap into a loan of 400 million euros ($488 million), the
company's chairman was quoted as saying in Italian news reports
Tuesday.
The reports sent Alitalia shares tumbling 4.7 percent Tuesday on the
Milan market.
In comments reported by Corriere della Sera, Alitalia Chairman and
Chief Executive Giancarlo Cimoli told unions that if they didn't
approve the restructuring plan, "Alitalia has 20 days of life left."

According to Corriere and financial daily Il Sole 24-Ore, Cimoli
also said Alitalia's revenues for July and August were 17 million
euros ($20.6 million) lower than expected, while passenger yields
fell 2.5 percent in the first five months of the year.
Alitalia's costs for carrying each passenger are 60 percent higher
than those for budget airline Ryanair, based in Dublin, Ireland,
according to the reports. Cimoli also blamed the poor results on a
11.5 percent absentee rates among company employees.
In July, the European Commission approved Italy's 400 million euro
rescue loan to cash-strapped Alitalia, saying more than 30,000 jobs
were dependent on keeping the airline flying. The Commission said
the loan should be limited to what was needed, while Alitalia drew
up a liquidation or restructuring plan.
Alitalia management is expected to hold contract talks with
employees this week, and Cimoli met with union leaders Monday to
discuss the issue.
"We hope to avoid a serious clash," said Fabio Berti, head of the
pilots' union, told Dow Jones Newswires, but added that his group
was willing to go on strike if necessary.
Alitalia has been struggling to stay aloft amid competition from
discount carriers and consolidation among the big players. The
airline, which is 62 percent-owned by the state, last achieved an
operating profit in 1998.
Earlier this month, the European Commission criticized Italy for
using decades-old bilateral treaties to order European airlines to
stop undercutting Alitalia on long-haul flights originating in Rome.

[trainer too 2]

It is a pity that the guys are to much oriented to their own country as this has Sabena written all over it... .:ooh:

When close to bankruptcy due to high cost: let's go on strike...

But then again these guys work for the same company that wants properly run companies like BA, LH and KL to increase their fares because they cannot match them... :rolleyes:

[exeng]

But then again these guys work for the same company that wants properly run companies like BA to increase their fares because they cannot match them.

Pass that one by me again will you!!

I agree with the sentiment but I wonder what yardstick you use to measure a 'properly run company'.


Regards
Exeng

[b767jetmec]

As an Air Canada employee, I have seen first hand what the airlines management team does to the number one asset they have...there employees. Once the company starts asking for consessions, it never stops. Granted, Alitalia and Air Canada may be playing two different ball games, but the bottom line is the same.

[DEE-DUCK]

Having first hand experience with Alitalia the attitude of the staff and the unions shows the general way the Italians think regarding thier employer. It always someone else's problem! Hopefully ANPAC and their cronies will wake up before it's too late and smell the roses rather than the s#@t they tell their paying members :yuk:

[Groundloop]

"I agree with the sentiment but I wonder what yardstick you use to measure a 'properly run company'."

I think in this case a good yardstick would be not requiring hundreds of millions in public handouts to survive!

[trainer too 2]

I feel that Union actions are allowed at companies like RYR who are making millions over the backs of their employees. To do it at a company who survive as Groundloop rightly says only by hand outs and still cannot make a profit is plain stupid... That is the piont to look inwards and see what you yourselve can do.

Exeng. A properly run company is one that makes money, gets no governement money, can compete with others, treats it's employees ok (don't kill me on this one as in every company there is something to fight for like the BA pension :ouch: ) and has a normal change to survive by it's own merits!:ok:

[PavelNedved]

I put this on another thread maybe someone with more knowledge than me could give me a tip or two


'Got a bit of a problem, have got a job as cargo ops agent for both AZ and AC in LON and dont know which one to take...any suggestions out there? thanks'

[b767jetmec]

It`s a tough call, but my bet would be with AC. I say that because even though we have fallen on some tough times at AC, it would appear that we have a plan for the future, things seem to be coming together nicely. Az seems to have too many disgrunted employees that don`t really seem to give a S**T. Mind you, there are many a companies that have the same type of employees.

Flip a coin! ;)

[geriatrix]

I just wanted to put in a good word for AZ. I spent most of my working life with them. I enjoyed it enormously. It was great fun working with Italians, and I grew to love them and their country greatly.
As far as AZ was concerned, sure there were problems, but once you understood how the system worked, there were ways round the problems too.
The stations outside of Italy achieved amazing results on very slim resources indeed.
I really hope AZ makes it. The story might have been very different if it hadn't been for the aborted KL/AZ venture!

[Zingaro]

Fine sentiment Geriatrix but...
Alitalia has been supported by the Italian tax payer for far to long! A very comfortable safety net.More recently by EU loans granted under conditions that the company later failed to meet.
Does living within ones means ring a bell as sane advice for life? Could you honestly say that Alitalia management would have continued with their heads in a bucket of sand had they been made to account to private shareholders rather than the Italian government over the past 10 years or so? Taxi to work indeed! How many uniforms per year? And all that money received by the top executive management as the company fell further into debt!
Judged by the rules of the game of life then Alitalia deserves all it gets for fat complacency but....for all the hard working individuals within the company who could not have influenced the final outcome I hope it can pull through and learn to stand alone. I certainly begrudge my taxpayers money being thrown down the drain for the prestige of Italy.
Why don`t we declare it a charity, it would perhaps be more honest!

[fiftyfour]

After 20 days, if there is no plan then does the Alitalia then fly under court protection, just like half the US and Canadian airlines that fly the atlantic?
If so, then nothing changes - other than continued unfair competition for the non- subsidised airlines that have to make their way and pay all their bills (including leasing costs and pensions)in the real world.

[Zingaro]

And now, shock! horror!
The only way for Alitalia to survive is to increase productivity. Example: 13 hours flight duty and 17 hours service,essentially, working to the maximum flight time limitations allowed in Italy!
But! they cry...this is a threat to flight safety... we cannot do this!!!!
Well,,, as ALL the other airlines in Italy have been working their pilots to over and sometimes above these limits for so many years,what is ENAC going to do now that ALITALIA PILOTS in their superior wisdom are declaring these limits unsafe!! Which rules will apply to whom????
Of course these limits are a great stress on safe operation,as is the current 24 hour duty limit on three crew regardless of when the duty starts!
I hope that Alitalia can achieve something regarding a ruling on these unsafe duty limits endured by the rest of us for years.
I also sincerely hope that no Alitalia pilot has to lose his or her job but...the company must learn to stand on its own feet!

[LVL CHG]

How would the former Sabena pilots feel about Alitalia's government subsidization? It ain't fair and it's a double standard in the EU... The Italian unions are notorious for illogical striking action (especially considering current LCC market conditions) in the face of changing markets... Wake up!!!!

Guess what? The industry has changed and Alitalia is a dinosaur with bloated costs and outdated work rules/policies.... Why should the Italian tax payer be forced to foot the bill for a bloated cost structure when they should be using that tax contribution to fly on cheaper FR, Volare or Wind Jet flights to holiday destinations?

If Sabena had to wind down, Alitalia should do the same if it cannot support itself... Don't worry, the Alitalia pilots would likely get picked up by expanding replacements like Volare, Ryanair, Air One and probably Easyjet.... More government subsidization is unfair to consumers (supports higher fares and inefficiencies) and non-competitive in this LCC world...

Ask the former Sabena pilots what they think about the situation...

[tarjet fixated]

i think all wise men and women here in Italy and more broadly speaking in the EU hope that state subsidies and other unfair practices are at their final chapter.
the situation at AZ is probably more critical than it seems, pilot and F/A unions have agreed to help as i heard today on tv...they were talking about pay cuts and improved productivity but without compromising safety (what that meant was that they didn't agree to longer hours and duty so i don't see where they wanted to be more productive),they also said something about "non traumatic lay-offs" meaning of which i don't seem to grasp....
the facts are that AZ lost about 11% pax since the beginning of the year to other domestic airlines and has about 6000 people more than it needs...not to talk about productivity and quality of the service...
all in all something must happen,let's not hope for a bankrupcy since it would be bad for all of us but let's hope the company will undergo deep restructuring and will turn into a "normal" airline like other flag carriers have become.

[thegoaf]

When the cash runs out there are no jobs. That is a focus for the mind. It has happened so many times. What would the AZ staff want? As it is impossible to protect all jobs the issue is about how many can be protected if changes are made. If AZ fails and some of their staff go and fly, say, for EasyJet they will have none of their priveleges. I bet they would rather do than than have no work. It is about time they realised just how strong those market forces are outside their own cosy world.

[peeteechase]

Good riddance
PTC

[Capt.KAOS]

When the cash runs out there are no jobsThere's only enough cash to pay salaries/wages for one month. On the news it was that a third of all AZ personal have to be dismissed as a condition for Government help.

[towerview]

So what would be the advice to passengers needing to book to Italy mid September? Ryanair and the Trenitalia website seems the most secure route to Catania.

[kowloon]

BA go to Catania almost every day from Gatwick. Last time I went it was full though.

Post script having checked BA.com. They go 4 times a week about £175 return all inc depending on dates/ low fares if you book far enough ahead.

[towerview]

Thanks for the tip, but BA only go 3 days a week, the wrong days for me, and the fare would be around £400 plus, so Alitalia it has to be!

[ORAC]

Air Malta? (http://www.airmalta.com/)

[Maxfli]

AZ lost €299M in 1st half 2004 on revenues of €1.9B.

Operating defecit of 15.7%


Not encouraging, good luck to all involved.

BOHICA :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[trainer too 2]

What amases me the most is in the papers this morning AZ says it needs 2 Billion more and cut 5000 jobs. Ok fair enough. But then it says 2000 jobs through early retirement. ok not nice but fair enough.

And 1700 by stopping contract staff.... Now let's recap, we are almost broke and we are over staffed but we still keep the contract staff on and only stop the contracts after reorganisation.... :hmm: Any sane company would have told them politely to look elsewhere ages ago :ooh:

What is going on here :confused:

[epsilonmiuraised]

if you can read italian or get a decent translation go and get first hand info on italian pilots unions websites www.anpac.it and www.unionepiloti.it you will see that (from my point of view but I'm not an "expert") they are not asking anything strange.
for example here (http://www.unionepiloti.it/news/sept02_01.htm) you can find an interesting document, in brief:

As alitalia management often cite european major airlines as an example of pilots efficiency, unione piloti proposed to use the lufthansa pilot contract but with a 20% lower pay, strangely enough alitalia refused, they (the management) continue to push a pilot contract made by the same consulting firm that made the gandalf airlines recovery plan (gandalf airlines was declared bankrupt some months ago) and that requires alitalia pilots to fly to the italian FTL limits: 13 hours flight 17 duty with 2 pilots and 20 hours flight 24 duty with 3 pilots over a maximum of 6 sectors and without any limit about when the duty starts/ends. And form what I understand they don't want to aplly it only to new entrants but to the whole pillot force.

I'm not totally sure but In another forum an ex alitalia guy wrote that with the present alitalia pilot contract a pilot can't get more than 2.800 euro per month (flying an average of 70/75 hours per month) in the first 10-11 years of his/her career.

Seen from this point of view it seems they are just fighting to survive, but media always speak about pilots "privileges", may be this apply to a certain amount of old chaps under a very old contract but people who joined in the last few years may be a bit disappointed, as 2800 euro per month after 10 years don't seem to me a "privilege".

[leadinghedges]

From what i've seen whenever there is industrial action involving pilots anybody who is not a pilot seems to look upon us as overpaid, oversexed sunglass wearing jet jockies!. We are mostly overworked, underpaid and most definately under appreciated. Lets say you are part of a medium size jet crew, you have the responsibility of many lives and a multi-million dollar company asset. The aircraft is worth more than a lot of small companies whose CEO probaly earns twice as much as your average skipper and he's probably boning the secretary too. If ,God forbid, anything goes wrong with a flight it's the pilots who are questioned first. We cannot allow bean counter management to undermine us and I say let's support Alitalia and other pilots who are willing to make a stand. When it's all said and done managment don't care about pilots and they would all be happier without us so F##K them.

[b767jetmec]

Why is it always about the pilots??? Does it not matter that it takes a whole lotta other folks to make an airline fly? It takes flight attendants, baggage services, ticket agents, cleaners/groomers and "Most Importantly" Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers.
So get off your pre madonna attitude and think about the other folks out there!

Sorry if I missed anyone!:(

[Krueger]

Earth to B767jetmec:

This is a Professional PILOT Rumour Network.:E

Not Professional Flight Attendants Rumour Network.

Not Professional Baggage Servicemen Rumour Network.

Not Professional Ticket Agent Rumour Network.

Not Professsional cleaners/groomers Rumour Network.

And Most Importantly NOT Professional Licenced Aircraft Maintenance Engineers Rumour Network.

What's up with the people who came to this forum and calling pilots pre madonna because we are talking about what's going on in our profession.

B767jetmec, I will not get into that drivell of calling you a wannabe and then you tell me that you're very proud to be an Engineer and then you accuse me of being an overpaid push-button and that you could do it easily if you wanted to...and on and on...


:yuk:


B767jetmec, if you're fed up with pilots talking about themselves, it's easy go to your own forum. Oh! I forgot, you don't have one.:E

You can always create one...:suspect:

[Krueger]

Point taken, SNAM. Probably my words looked more arsh than my feelings.:(

Of course, aviation is NOt only about pilots, however this is a pilot's forum. My believe is that everyone's welcome. But acusing it of just talking about pilots...:confused:

Anyway, I'm sorry for going away from the topic. Now, let's go back on track.:ok:

[zerozero]

Buona Fortuna Alitalia!

FORZA!!

[LVL CHG]

Alitalia is a bloated dinosaur that simply can't compete with its more nimble low-cost carriers. Further subsidization from the government will only delay the inevitable and will cost the Italian taxpayers millions of hard-earned money...

It's time to slim down to a much more profitable operating structure or to close up shop. The fact that Sabena was forced to shut down after its illustrious history and good operating record while Alitalia continues to suck taxpayer money is completely unfair. It is painfully obvious and the EU is taking notice. Subsidies allow airlines to maintain their higher fares for passengers - they promote the status quo and do not necessarily lead to changes that would benefit passengers.

No doubt other Italian airlines would fill the void when Alitalia vanishes - I am sure the Alitalia pilots will be welcomed with open arms at low-cost carriers like Volare, Ryanair and Windjet.... Air One will continue to provide good service domestically. The low-cost model must be embraced because it is spreading like a virus worldwide, and those who don't change their operating cost structure will be left in the dust because passengers are no longer willing to fund their expensive hubs and "higher" service standards (crap service compared to what you are paying).

Alitalia should receive no more aid at the taxpayers' expense - it should be forced to make the needed operational cuts or die off like the dinosaurs once did...

[tarjet fixated]

just a couple of thoughts about the dinosaur:
2300 pilots ,more or less 150 aircraft of 9 different types (ATR,EMB 145,EMB 170,MD 80,A320,B767,B777,MD11 and B747);this alone should make you think about the business plan behinout the business plan behind such a fleet...no plan at all apart from pure obscure political reasons (Alenia through Finmeccanica makes parts of EMB aircraft as well as parts for airbus as well as boeing and is part of the ATR program).
Two hubs (rome and milan) with hundreds of crews deadheading from rome to milan daily to report for work (bare in mind that more than 70% of air traffic in Italy originates from the north of the country) so what's the logic behind such a huge base in rome?no logic at all apart from the obscure vicinity to the buildings of political power.
A few months ago agonizing AZ bought bankrupt Gandalf airlines with all its slots...how come a financially troubled company buys a bankrupt airline and all its slots when it cannot sustain its own business?mystery...they should have given those slots to an airline which would have actually revitalized those routes not let AZ buy it for a mere political and financial reason.
still i hope something positive will come out of this big mess.

[tarjet fixated]

the latest from tonight's meeting:
450 pilots layed off and 1050 flight attendants, the pilot union is opposing the plan.
other meeting tomorrow morning.

[LVL CHG]

Hey SNAM,

Two words: money pit

Watch more tax payer money get wasted and wasted. Darwin would be distressed by this lack of "survival of the fittest" - Alitalia is far from fit - it is bloated and hugely unprofitable. Time to make room for more efficient carriers that offer Italians value for money vs. an outdated, expensive model.

[skibeagle]

Business/Finance News
09/07/2004 07:37:11 EST Alessandra Tarantino/AP Photo
Union Leaders Slam Alitalia Job Cut Plan
By VICTOR L. SIMPSON
Associated Press Writer

ROME - Union leaders slammed Alitalia's plans to cut 5,000 jobs as part of restructuring efforts aimed at averting collapse, but said Tuesday they will keep negotiating and urged the government to step in.
The state-run airline's plan to shed almost a quarter of its 22,000-strong labor force has angered its workers, who blame Alitalia management for the state of the airline's finances. Alitalia says it has only enough liquidity to pay salaries until the end of this month.

"By now, the workers are ready to even carry out crazy gestures, such as occupying the runways," Isla Cavallaro, head of a maintenance workers union, told the ANSA news agency.

But Italy's top union leader, Guglielmo Epifani of the CGIL, said that while Alitalia's plan "is no good" the unions will stay at the negotiating table in a bid to win concessions. He said "exaggerated forms of struggle" were not "useful" and said the government must step in and resolve the differences.

The government has made no move to do so, but ANSA quoted a government official as saying they were considering special unemployment benefits for the laid-off workers.

The airline said the layoffs would allow it to save some euro315 million (US$380 million) by 2006.

Alitalia unveiled its recovery plan during a meeting with unions Monday evening at the company's Rome headquarters. The airline was hoping to persuade reluctant labor confederations to go along with the plan.

The approval of the recovery plan is crucial to the company's survival as it would allow Alitalia to access a euro400 million (US$488 million) loan approved by the Italian government and the European Union.

Unions have opposed proposed job cuts over the past year by organizing massive strikes, including some in late April and May that grounded about 1,500 flights. However, Italian and EU officials in the past weeks have stepped up the pressure on labor confederations.

Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government has repeatedly threatened to let the airline collapse unless unions accept the cuts. In Brussels, EU Transport Commissioner Loyola de Palacio said last week that the layoffs are inevitable.

According to a company statement, about 1,570 workers would be laid off from Alitalia's flight operations, including 1,050 flight attendants and 450 pilots. Another 3,430 layoffs would come from the non-flight unit, with the majority coming from the maintenance department.

According to the statement, the plan foresees two separate companies: one for flight operations, called AZ-Fly, and another one for the ground services, called AZ-Service.

Alitalia gave no additional details on the spin-off. According to analysts, AZ-Fly will be privatized, while state-owned company Fintecna might buy into AZ-Service, which gathers less appealing ground operations.

The plan was devised by Chairman and Chief Executive Giancarlo Cimoli, who became the head of the company in May after having turned around Italy's state-run railway.

Cimoli, who did not take part in Monday's talks, has set a Sept. 15 deadline for the plan's approval.

Alitalia, which is 62 percent owned by the state, is facing one of its worst times ever.

Still reeling from the massive crisis that hit the airline industry after the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, Alitalia has been struggling amid cutthroat competition from discount carriers and consolidation among established players.

The company has posted an annual profits only four times in the last 16 years. Last year it reported a net loss of euro517 million. Its debt stood at euro1.6 billion (US$2 billion) at the end of June, up euro220 million (US$265 million) since the end of 2003.

Revenues were below expectations in July and August, Cimoli said recently, adding that all of Alitalia's performance indicators had been negative in the first five months of the year.

The government has said it will relinquish control of the airline by reducing its stake to less than 50 percent. In June, it said the privatization would occur between six months and a year.

The government won EU approval of the rescue loan in July. The loan was the Italian government's only remaining way to aid Alitalia without breaching EU rules on state aid.

[Knold]

I would like to argue this “Buona Fortuna” bollox. First of all it’s not luck or fortune that’s going to save Ali. And not the “Madonna” either by the way.

Second, and this is the reply maker, let the buggers have it!

Alitalia is as Italians are, hard headed in the wrong direction. As an employee of the formally owned Alitalia charter company (hard to guess which one right?!), you see the prominent signs of someone who knows they’re doomed and by their own actions. Blaming others left and right, all but yourself. I know this makes me biased to the situation but being employed by contract I consider myself fairly objective on this.

Not to bore you with specifics about what they actually do to us (former child-company) daily, I won’t get into it now or later.

My point is that this country has a very strong unionization of labourers. Too strong. They decline every offer from the company/government trying to restructure the airline. Of course you might say, this is what unions are for, to reject any notion of sacking employees. This is true, but they have to accelerate their smelling of the coffee. They are face with a situation where the company is bleeding badly. The word is that about a fourth of the work force must be laid of to attain a situation where the company will be able to achieve “self accelerating speed”.
The fact that they still have pick-up service for both cockpit and cabin crew tells a brief but explicit story about the unions/employees commitment to save colleges’ livelihood. The fact that the company let their air crew live elsewhere than their base making the flights between Milano and Rome, for instance about 30-50% occupied by crew is another but equally real but insane story.
Who is the hero? The one who refuses to come to terms with reality and the lay-offs needed or the one who tries to perform pre-emptive damage control?

The proof of the inefficiency of Alitalia perhaps becomes even clearer when taking in the fact that Italy (not a 100% accepted JAA member BTW) provide their airlines with the most leisure duty limit regulations in this part of the world. Even including Island if I’m not mistaken. They would seem to have the perfect conditions to compete with any other airline. If Italian companies would have to conform to any future JAA/JAR/EASA common regulations to duty time limits, they would be forced into the harsh realities of British/Irish etc. airlines. Perhaps besides the point I know. I’m willing to take up any discussion about duty time regarding the current national rules versus whatever will eventually become the EU norm.

The hope of a government funded rescue plan in the long run is hardly worth betting on. All the big national carriers are watching this like hawks. With the new EU/EC rules BA or any other major airline will hardly sit still if they smell any subsidizing rat.
Though perhaps their smell and eyesight needs a check-up. One of the major reason Alitalia is still operating today is that the Italian government buys up a massive amount of empty seats on flight with lower “sold seat average”. All legal of course (or so I think), but it is only a way of circumventing the EU/EC rules of government support. This is what I mean when I say that the spectators with a special interest in this might want to get their senses checked or their lenses cleaned, whichever comes first.

I’ll let this one tear for now because I think there is more in here then the opposite-pole reader will digest without breaking out the good ol’ whip for a response.

Yours in Fear and Loathing
Knold

Let 'em rip as they say or rather, it's best I get this one under way before I get too sentimental on Johnny Cash and Italian Beer.

[tarjet fixated]

one of the things i often would like to ask ATC when an AZ aircraft is ahead of me for T/O is to let me go first because i have to be on time so that my airline can make money to feed our own employees as well as Alitalia's ones...

[Brenoch]

Now, now Knold, don't get your knickers in a knot... Let's all just be bystanders and watch the giant fall..

It can't be long now..

[Check 6]

This should help:

Alitalia Strike Schedule:

10/9/2004 - Alitalia pilots
24 hours

17/9/2004 - Alitalia employees
10.00-18.00

I live in Italy, but will no longer fly on Alitalia. Their employees are generally rude, the service is substandard, and they leave passengers stranded.

I will say that the ticket agents in Naples are very helpful and courteous.


:rolleyes:

[towerview]

Oh dear, knew I should have booked Ryanair and the train. Still there are worse places to be stranded for a while.

[maddog62]

paying for errors made by others, who will instead keep their chairs and will still be paid millions to continue to do the same errors as before.

and this is so true :(

mad

[Check 6]

epsilonmiuraised, the strike schedule I posted was what was reported in the Italian nationwide strike schedule (includes all forms of transportation).

Italian law requires advance notice of strikes. It is possible that the respective unions have changed their minds, but this does not negate the FACT that these strikes were announced.

You need to get your facts correct, sir, before sounding off.

Yes, good people may lose their jobs, but other jobs will be available when another airline or airlines fills the void.

[fiftyfour]

There are limits to what the Italian Government can do. Italy is a 'basket case' economy, and Alitalia is a 'basket case' company.

The 12 euozone economies have the following agreed financial limits under international treaty as part of the deal for being allowed to be in the euro. Government Debt limit of 60% of GDP - Italy has 105%!. Government Deficit limit of 3% of GDP - Italy has3.2%!

Either they accept that the party is over and act soberly, or they will get slung out of the club.

[Human Factor]

Either they accept that the party is over and act soberly, or they will get slung out of the club.

Doubtful, they would have been slung out already, along with the French. That would be a tacit admission by the EU that the Euro, single market et al don't work (most of us knew this anyway). It would also kill a positive result for them in the promised referenda in various countries. Europe is about politics, not economics.

Sorry, thread creep.....

[tarjet fixated]

sidestepping the topic for a sec.....
Most things you said about italy are true but speaking about the airline market you should not forget that this country is one of the most booming in the whole of europe since AZ lost its monopoly on the market and other airlines had the chance to join the business,hundreds of foreign pilots work for local airlines and the business outlook for the italian aviation market is quite bright according to the experts.
The huge debt of the country and what is happening with AZ is just a leftover from the past decades and from past governments and it's never been so true (at least for this country) that the new EU has a positive effect on how things are becoming to be done over here since now rome is not the pivotal spot of everything anymore and things are watched upon from above, from the EU.
I think that intelligent people should appreciate the fact that a strong and united europe can do a lot of good for its citizens.
it's all up to us.

[juventus]

Well said Tarjet, I am with you on this!

[square leg]

30% of nothing is nothing;-)

[My names Turkish]

I-Ford, Italy are outside the JAA in terms of licencing. All those Pilots have Italian Commercials. Until they are in they wont be flying outside of Italy. Thats as far as I can understand, anyone KNOW something otherwise?

[Speevy]

Italy is JAA member, the mutual recognition process is almost done (JAR FCL 1 recognised JAR FCL 3 about to), but even if that will not happen soon, to validate a license with a Type Rating on it will be very easy and that means that AZ pilots could apply to any company in Europe!

Conversion (which is not the same thing) will probably take a bit longer but they don't need a new license, they can operate with their italian one

Good Luck and Good Flying
Speevy

[spagiola]

Latest news reports (http://www.repubblica.it/2004/i/sezioni/economia/alitaliatre/pilottt/pilottt.html) (in Italian) says there's been an agreement between pilots and airline. Seems to involve productivity and other concessions, but in the proud tradition of Italian newspapers it's very hard to figure out the facts from the article.

[Airbubba]

Alitalia Pilots Make Concessions,
Giving a Big Lift to Rescue Plan

By LUCA DI LEO
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

September 15, 2004

ROME -- Pilots at Alitalia SpA agreed to nearly double their annual flying hours and accept lower pay as part of a deal to keep the struggling airline in business.

Expectations for a pilots deal, which will save the company €52 million ($64 million) by 2006 and which brings Alitalia Chief Executive Giancarlo Cimoli a step closer to getting labor unions to agree on a wider rescue plan, sent shares in the state-controlled flagship carrier surging.

The plan, drawn up by Mr. Cimoli, who is credited with turning around Italy's state railway, foresees spinning off the company's service operations from its core flight business and laying off a quarter of Alitalia's 21,000 full-time staff.

Alitalia shares closed 17% higher at 28 European cents yesterday after posting a 7% gain Monday.

Although Mr. Cimoli's deadline today for the Alitalia unions to approve the full plan or face bankruptcy might have to be moved by a few days to allow for more negotiations, analysts said the Alitalia rescue plan is now within reach.

The pilots, who have for years enjoyed greater benefits than their counterparts at other European airlines, agreed to fly nearly double their current 450 hours per year and to have a larger part of their salaries based on how much they work. This will amount to a pay cut of up to 15%, according to people close to the unions.

Unions representing ground staff and cabin crew were set to negotiate similar productivity gains for Alitalia before moving on to the last -- and most difficult -- talks concerning job cuts.

Mr. Cimoli wants to lay off 1,570 workers from Alitalia's flight operations, called AZ-Fly, including 1,050 flight attendants, 450 pilots and others. Another 3,430 layoffs would come from the services business, called AZ-Service.

That would leave AZ-Fly, which analysts have dubbed the "good" company, with 11,700 workers, or just over half of the employees Alitalia currently has.

Although Alitalia hasn't provided any details, analysts said AZ-Fly would be recapitalized, with fresh funds coming from private investors.

"AZ-Fly has earnings potential because Italy remains a very profitable market," said Lucio Cannamela, an analyst at Abaxbank in Milan, who says Mr. Cimoli's rescue plan has a 70% chance of being struck.

Italy has a large internal flight market and is a big tourist destination. Italian communities in the U.S., Argentina and elsewhere offer a ready customer base for long-haul travel. Alitalia also benefits from an alliance with SkyTeam, which brings together Air France-KLM, Delta Air Lines and soon Northwest and Continental Airlines.

Despite this potential, Alitalia has posted operating losses over the past five years amid cutthroat competition from discount carriers and consolidation among established players.

Through the year, Alitalia's powerful unions have fiercely opposed job cuts. In April and May, they staged a series of strikes that blocked air traffic, forcing Mr. Cimoli's predecessor to renounce layoffs.

Things are different now.

Both Mr. Cimoli and the government, which owns 62% of Alitalia, have this year repeatedly threatened to put the airline into administrative receivership if there's no accord with unions. This likely would free management's hands for even more painful layoffs.

In a bid to help negotiations between management and unions, the government signaled this week it would be willing to extend unemployment benefits to the airline sector to ease the pain of the layoffs.

With most of the capital increase expected to go into AZ-Fly, unions are concerned the 9,000 employees at AZ-Service would be left with dim prospects.