Helicopter aerodynamics CD Rom?

[mike papa delta]

Does anyone know of a graphics-rich CD ROM covering helicopter aerodynamics? I would really like to "see" examples of blades flapping to equality etc. as my brain works better that way...

Ta.

[gadgetguru]

MPD

i'm with you - i am certainly a visually dependant learner; "a picture tells a thousand words" etc.

i am a student CPL(H) pilot & have been working on producing some 3d animations of several topics, i am currently studying Aerodynamics & am making a list (quite extensive now:sad: ) of all the items that i need to animate. I am still learning the tools to produce this too, so the process is doubly painful for me. :{

i had intended to produce my own theory application incorporating all of these animations, but as a student pilot i am nowhere near the level i would need to be in order to produce such technical detail (with any authority :\ ) & would need to source an existing content from a more appropriate (qualified) source.

I have been using my existing books etc. as references, & I hope to be able to produce enough animations that i could approach some of these authors with the intent to produce an electronic format of their texts, including my animations.

I may be behind the eight-ball though as i noticed the other day in (i think it was) the Australia AVIATION magazine an advert for CD-ROM based theory :ugh:

I have not seen a copy of it, nor know of anyone who has, so i am unsure of the format of the content & whether or not they have utilised graphical animations etc. i can only assume that they would have.

in any case i am continuing my personal project of animating all the little things i can, so that i can at least incorporate them into pre-flight briefings, where such aerodynamics focused topics might need to be revised.

I was considering using this forum as a testbed for some of the content (once completed) to tap the brains of the mentors out there who are the prime candidates for critizing any visualisations that i interpret into an animation. :O

[mike papa delta]

gadgetguru - "Good on ya" I believe is the correct expression! Shame you have not got it finished, approved and in the shops cos i could sure do with a copy...

Looks like I am in for more fun filled evenings with Norman Bailey...

Ta

[gadgetguru]

MPD

is there anything in particular that you were hoping to find?

I have an ever growing list of items for the 'to-do' pile, that will eventually cover all items that are difficult to explain &/or illustrate, but might animate very well.

i have identified a few items that will probably take priority, that might be able to find their way into concurrent projects

but again all of this has to wait until my studies are complete.

I'd be interested to know what the instructor (H) community finds the most laborious to explain to students.

I am happy to accept any recommendations that they feel are relevant in this regard.
:p

[pa42]

There must be a bunch of us thinking about improving the fund of in-depth maneuvers/flight descriptions. I cannot see why there is such a shortage of standardized maneuvers parameters, even the FAA mentions Tasks for the PTS that are nowhere laid out in sufficient detail to prevent various different regional interpretations of how the maneuver is to be done. Specific confusional instances: steep approach, max perf TO, full-down auto, coping with POH's that have criminally insufficient performance data (notably R22).

Would you, MPD and gadget, be interested in collaborating on a priority-list of principles needing clarification/standardization/animation, which we could circulate to others of the same mind set? My thought is that there's so little profit in generating advanced educational products for the microscopic helicopter-pilot market that we might as well admit this is a labor of love . . .

Dave
ATP/CFII ASMELGH
Chief Flt Instr, HelicopterAcademy.com

[mike papa delta]

gadget guru - Everything!

Moving, 3D examples would help me understand the concepts of the principles of helicopter flight much more fully - particularly flapping to equality and phase lag. I imagined perhaps a few graphics running concurrently - one showing the whole rotor from above the aircraft, one from the side or rear as appropriate and one showing the aerofoil section with the changes in relative airflow and angle of attack - all changing in sync with the relevant numbers changing too. Nothing much!

I was thinking along the lines of the graphics I have seen here (http://auto.howstuffworks.com/engine4.htm) - they may however be a bit too simplistic for this subject matter, dunno.

pa42 - I think all I have to offer at the moment is what a student in EXTREMELY early stages might want!

Ta.

[alouette]

I currently study for the JAA CHPL. A little more graphic display in certain areas ie. subjects would help a lot to understand that stuff.:p

[gadgetguru]

MPD

thanks that kind of narrows it down a bit form me...:hmm:

i had been tinkering with the idea, particularly in regards to pre-flight briefings, watching instructors attempting to draw things Mr. Squiggle style & not having much luck, then having to explain a complex aspect, around a ordinary illustration. I mean they're pilots, not Picasso's. So i started my list

got into AGK & Aero & realised that i had stepped neck deep in it, the list grew :sad:

there are currently some excellent animations of four stroke cylce availabe lon the internet, but not all students have internet access, though they may have or at least have access to a computer.
There are a few additional things i woul like to animate in AGK, but there are things back in Met & even Human Perfromance that i'd love to play with eventually.

The crux of the problem is Aero, so much of it & it is quite difficult to understand some of the concepts when learning them initially & i often find myself having to read a section 4 times to get a grasp on it.
first time: Jesus H Christ - what was that about?
second time: OK - i think i know what he's getting at.
third time: the knee bone's connected to the hip bone....it's all starting to make sense
fourth time: Right - got it in full, no more "i think i know what he means"

I have found this in most (technically intense & unfamiliar content) things i have studied, i cannot simply read a text & take it all in, unlike some academic types, i am more of a hands on type of guy, i prefer to be able to read it, get an idea of what it is, then build it or manifest some sort of physical thing that i can then tinker with to really see what's going on.

I have been annoying the **** out of the engineers asking all the 'dumb' questions, & they have been very patient with me.

it is not viable to be able to build physical models of everything that you come across in CPL(H) theory, but to be able to visualse it... so i went down the track of 3d modelling & animation.

So now i am teaching myself how to use it, which is quite a painful process, given the fact that i am trying to complete my theory, learn 3D too, keep my better half & kids informed that i am still alive (when i venture out of the 'batcave' the study) & mantain my full time job (I.T.). :{

initially i am working on a basic circuits pattern.
once that's done i will work on Dissymmetry of lift, this will encompass quite a few smaller things i was going to attempt for Aero. :\

Once i complete them I'll find some manner of making them viewable to the PPrune community for feedback.
probably webhosted in flash format. :ok:

please be patient, & i'll try to 'make best speed'

[Whirlybird]

gadgetguru,

Brilliant idea. I always really struggled with concepts like flapping to equality; the only way I could understand it was to visualise it, and I'm a very poor visualiser. As to what's needed...everything, from the basics onwards. If I think of anything more specific, I'll certainly let you know. Would help me a lot now I'm supposed to be able to instruct on this stuff too. :eek:

Just had a thought - what happens to different parts of the rotor blades during autorotation would be a good one...always found that hard to understand - and learning by rote is not the same thing as understanding.

[mike papa delta]

first time: Jesus H Christ - what was that about?
second time: OK - i think i know what he's getting at.
third time: the knee bone's connected to the hip bone....it's all starting to make sense
fourth time: Right - got it in full, no more "i think i know what he means"
Yep that's the one - good to know i am not the only one!

learning by rote is not the same thing as understanding.
Couldn't agree more...

[Robbo Jock]

Actually, I tend to find that some random time later, I get

fifth time: "Oh :mad:, so that's what it's all about"

Generally brought on by reading some of the posts here !

[gadgetguru]

RJ
exactly which is why i want to use PPruner's feedback

with the likes lf Nick, Lu, Shawn (& others whom ) loitering about within the forums, I'd be insane not to.

i have not worked out who's who yet (only been at it a month) - so apols if i've missed any other obvious ones

[gadgetguru]

at the expense of my studies, i have been tinkering a little in order to produce some eye candy for you guys :uhoh:

I'll get it up to somewhere you can all look at it soon.

very basic at this point
shows mast & dual blade rotation paths

first being the axis or rotation, the next being the blade tip path plane, given a forward clyclic input.

this is purely to illustrate the rotor disc tilt
so there is lots of detail missing.

once concept at at time.
will advise once it is up

[gadgetguru]

here we go, attempt 1
http://holeygrail.khanted.com/files/Aero1.jpg

as stated very basic at this point
i have used a jetrange shell i found on the net, but intend on producing my own R-22 & B206 shells, this shows mast & dual blade rotation tip paths & rotation axis

blue blades (these will be transparent &/or 'wireframe' in the rendered version) with green 'squiggles' being the plane of rotation based around the shaft axis,
orange blades with pink/megenta 'squiggles' being the blade tip path plane about new axis of rotation (given a forward cyclic input).

video available here: http://holeygrail.khanted.com/files/AOR_vs_TPP_w206.avi

one step at at time. :ok:

[Whirlybird]

gadgetguru,

It's great! Could be ver useful as a teaching aid; much better than my standing there with a toy helicopter trying to show what the blades do. Keep up the good work. :ok:

[gadgetguru]

before anyone gets the wrong idea - & pipes up about it looks pretty crappy, colours are a bad choice etc. :ouch:
please keep in mind that the avi produced is barebones detail, what we are looking at here is the concept being displayed, not how pretty it looks, believe me in 3d, making it 'pretty' can take 3 times as long as drawing the objects. Also Lighting is an artform that i have not even scratched the surface of yet. :}
there are no materials or mappings applied to any objects, there is no rendering, the final product intended is a very different beast, i simply do not have the time to do a full blown run just now
additionaly i want to be able to settle on a standard format, so that any animation i produce will be instantly recognisable as 'one of mine' ;)

[gadgetguru]

OK Gents- try these out;

front view of plane of rotation vs, tip path plane (fwd cyclic)
http://holeygrail.khanted.com/files/front_thmb.jpg

left view of plane of rotation vs, tip path plane (fwd cyclic)
http://holeygrail.khanted.com/files/left_thmb.jpg

original (perspective) view of plane of rotation vs, tip path plane (fwd cyclic)
http://holeygrail.khanted.com/files/persp_thmb.jpg

sample movies available at:
http://holeygrail.khanted.com

I think for the time being this is all i am going to do, until i have finished my study & gotten some more flying done, then i will be in a position to tackle the 3D in earnest, so until then, feel free to PM or email me with what you would like to see, everything is on the cards, but for those of you whom have a specific concept for something that you have identified & wish to have developed, then i would be interested to hear from you, with what you had i mind.

cheers

[Whirlybird]

Just for the sake of accuracy......some of us aren't "gents". :eek:

[gadgetguru]

apols :O

no offence intended to all our Ladies present

i remain 'politically inaccurate' ;)

[gadgetguru]

Would like to ask the question in regards to naming the respective items that i am attempting to animate.

would appreciate any comments that the theory instructors amongst the ranks can put forward

specifically the axis of rotation relative to the shaft axis.

I intend to depict both the 'Axis of Rotation' (hereby referred to as AoR) , particularly as it varies in respect to 'Shaft Axis', however if i do not maintain an illustration of exactly where AoR is, comparative to where it started from, i believe that some impact of the animation is lost.

i was intending on having this displayed as a wireframe blade & relevant circumference indicated in a subdued colour, labelling it "AoR Datum" or something similar (any suggestions - or is there already a term that i should be using)
from which the student could interpolate a starting point of the AoR of 'all things being normal' where the blades would be spinning to where the AoR results post a cyclic input.

This would entail assuming that :
the aircraft is stationery on a horizontal surface
the Shaft Axis is perpendicular to the surface &
the AoR is parallel to the surface.

Thanking you (for constructive criticism) in advance

cheers

[Devil 49]

If all that refers the main rotor, the swept area is a "disk" and from some aspects, the "tip path plane"

[Flingwing207]

er...

by "shaft axis", I'm supposing you mean the main rotor drive shaft?

"Axis of rotation" is tip-path plane?

Or perhaps I don't actually have a clue what you're asking. Well, I tried, anyway.:8

[gadgetguru]

I've reserved the 'tip path plane' label for the illustration of coning angle in relation to the Plane of Rotation, which may or may not be the same as the Plane of Rotation relative to the Shaft Axis.

So i have been trying to segregate tip path plane from anything else. As I will also need to illustrate the difference of the disc area formed by the tip path plane during coning, in comparison to tip path plane in an otherwise 'normal' AoR.

by 'normal' i infer that the disc area is at its maximum, & coning is angle is zero

an AoR 'datum' would need to include a Plane of Rotation 'datum', so that as with the AoR vs Shaft Axis, the Plane of Rotation relative to each of these is illustrated (i think i've cocked up the explanation of that in the opening thread - apols)

the Plane of Rotation relative to the AoR will be the significant feature of the animation, it will also serve as a reference datum for the coning part of the animation

cheers

[[email protected]]

On the ground, with zero wind and with the disc (tip path plane) parallel to the ground, the shaft axis and the axis of rotation are the same (providing the gearbox does not have a tilt in any direction).
When the cyclic is moved and the tip path plane changes (disc tilted forward for example) the the shaft axis remains the same but the axis of rotation has moved forward and is at 90 degrees to the tip path plane.

[mike papa delta]

The diagrams in me trusty Norman Bailey book refer to this as the Cone Axis... (I think!)

[gadgetguru]

Thanks Crab

as per picci on the preceding page
the green axis is shaft axis
the green circumference / plane of rotation is the 'datum' that i am refering to, as you described relative to shaft axis

the pink/magenta axis is the 'new' axis of rotation (shifted away from shaft axis by - in the illustration fwd cyclic input)
the pink circumference / plane of rotation ( relative to new AoR) is the tip plane path with zero coning.

if you can imagine now a 3rd circumference / plane of rotation above & parallel to the pink one, slightly smaller, being the disc area & tip path plane under a load (coning), hence i am wanting to maintain each element seperately so that the students can see it happening & have a reference point for each one.

the missing link sort of stuff...

might be easiest if i produce a still shot of what i am trying to describe with the labels as i see them , then get your feedback

i don't want to produce something that is going to generate any arguments over the terminology used.

thanks again for feedback

[gadgetguru]

the picture below should allow for an easier explanation of what i am trying to achieve

full size pic with all labels/detail is available at :
http://holeygrail.khanted.com/graphics/cone_tpp.jpg

http://holeygrail.khanted.com/graphics/tpp_thmb.jpg

as the MR blades (Pink) travel & TPP/PoR (also pink) move with the changes in AoR, there will be a ghost set of blades following (what i have termed the) the PoR 'datum' (Green) relative to the Shaft Axis (Green)

the student can then see where the TPP/PoR has moved to with any given cyclic inputs in relation to where it started from.

at the point where coning is introduced, in order to reflect the position of the TPP (with coning) in relation to the 'normal' TPP relative to AoR, another 'ghost' set of blades will maintain the PoR about the AoR, whilst the Actual Blades (Tips) will raise (cone) & the disk area (transparent orange disk) will contract as the TPP increases above the PoR.

the final product will include a simple fuselage, with some extended (long/lat) axis lines so that the perspective view is easier to interpret specifically in regards to the disc tilt
cheers :8

should i consider demonstrating Disc tilt (AoR shifts from Shaft Axis)
to coning (TPP under increased load) seperately to reduce the amount of information needing to be assimilated?

then have this (pictured above) as the 3rd collated detail.

one step at a time...

would appreciate any views

[gadgetguru]

Hi all, the slow painful process of 3D animation of aerodynamics has begun

I need to source some Helicopter technical diagrams (profile shots)

Does any one have any good resources of technical diagrams, like those in the flight manuals - which i don't have access to

I currently have
Bell Jetranger
Robinson R22/R44

I need to source the following:

Bell 47 (asap)
Hughes 500
AS350
Sikorsy S76
EC120 &/or 130
Bell 205/212 (412 I can get from their website brochures, but need the older models)

If anyone can provide links or even scanned images of these types from manual pages, I would be most appreciated.

Cockpit layouts would also be usefull later on, however the fuselages are the priority at the moment.
:8

[Bosbefok]

Looks good but you're re-inventing the wheel - comprehensive pc-based training software is available. The bad news - it's aimed at training schools etc, and therefore very expensive. Starts with the basic functions like the internal combustion engine etc and continues on to turbines, instrument flight etc etc, all in step-by-step format that closely follows the training syllabus. Rather large - installs from a 5-cd set. My advice - source a school that is equipped with the latest in training aids such as this, and one with a simulator is a bonus.

[gadgetguru]

just because you may not be a school, doesn't mean you don't need it.

3D visualisation is something that most companies could do with, but have not yet realised it, & is flexible enough to be applied to any custom requirement.

it might be expensive, but it depends whether your paying for quality, speed
&/or both.

doesn't solve my problem though - i still need the pics.

anyone?


cheers

[paco]

Gadgetguru

Look in a book called Helicopter Maintenance - there are a lot of techie diagrams for quite a few helicopters in there.

As it happens I am shortly to go for approval fpr a JAA CPL(H) distance learning course - give me a PM with your real email - perhaps we can talk about a few things

Phil

[Tony Chambers]

3D imaging is definately the way forward, i'm not a pilot but as part of the service i provide in groundcrew training i am now looking to get a whole new load of simulation, emulation, 3D images and simulators produced. If you want to beef up what you already have with the 3D stuff may be we could chat and i could posssibly talk to the guys who will be doing the stuff for me.