Station Guard Force Meals

[SRENNAPS]

Wef from 16 Aug 04 the Station Guard Force's at Brampton, Henlow and Wyton will no longer be entitled to duty meals. This is due to a re-interpretation of the rules.

Now it is bad enough that SNCO's of many, many years service have to do guard (Not Guard Comander - but guard) but to take away our night shift chip butty's is going to far.

Maybe it is a DLO cost saving drive to get them out of the red.

Any comments please.

[opso]

That 're-interpretation' has been rolling out across a number of stns for the past of years - you've done very well if you've only just come across it now. The livers-in are still allowed to ask for a packed meal or a duty meal, but livers-out aren't. The problem is trying to justify why the SGF should be treated any differently from anyone else doing 12hr shifts...

[HOODED]

Nothing surprises me anymore. Maybe they'll put holding officers on guard/guard commander next!:(

[SRENNAPS]

OPSO,
I think the justification is that the SGF cant just pop off for supper or lunch for an hour or so like normal 12 hour shifters can.

[BEagle]

Sounds as though a mobile fish and chip van in the 'visitors' parking area would be just the ticket.....

Even if it meant buying your own? Like anyone else does??

[opso]

I think the justification is that the SGF cant just pop off for supper or lunch for an hour or so like normal 12 hour shifters can.

Let's see, SGF 12 hr shift usually includes 2 x 1.5 hr stints on the gate plus 1 or 2 stints on patrol. The other 6 hrs are stood down in the MGR/GP. Everywhere I have ever been allows the guards to go for meals during those down periods provided they go only to the messes and straight back. If your stn doesn't allow that, it is an issue for you to take up with your local chain.

Meanwhile, the sac sat on his todd in the comcen overnight has to stay put for the whole 12 hrs doing his job. The same for people in similar positions in ops rooms, the med centre etc.

Unless you are restricting your definition of 12 hour shifters to just the techies on the line... And oddly enough even in that case, the livers-out aren't entitled to food at public expense.

[SRENNAPS]

Well I must say that I am quite disappointed with the replies on this thread.

The point that I am making is that we penny pinch and penny pinch with absolutely no thought to morale.

We see adverts on TV about us being a caring outfit but at the end of the day the only care that is given is when it affects those that make the big desisions. Lets face it, who cares if a Flt Sgt of 30 years experience has to sit on a gate at 2 in the morning with a gun because there are no airmen on the camp to do the job.

A mate of mine has recently left the mob after 27 years service and become a paramedic. When he has a 12 hour shift, all of his meals are sorted because he is on duty.
He also says that his new career is brilliant because it is like being in the air force we had many years ago.

The point that I am trying to make is that there are too many people in todays air force, stuck in a dam happy easy jobs, making desisions that affect people in the air force that are actually doing a real job. But it does not affect them so they do not care. It saves money and makes them look good.
The trouble is with very little movement with postings these days (especially with no RAFG) the same people will make the desisions and the same people will do the hard work.....

OPSO
I totally agree with you. But these people including myself are doing the job that they joined up to do. Quite happy to do that. But to take an experienced SNCO, and turn him into a pleb of a job that we did when we were 18 year old SACs, then surely a couple of perks like a chip butty on behalf of the queen is not too much to ask for.

[Echo 5]

SRENNAPS,

"The point that I am trying to make is that there are too many people in todays air force, stuck in a dam happy easy jobs,"

Damn right.....and I know quite a few of them at Wyton. Nice to see that they are justifying their existance by doing a few guard duties.... and as Beags has pointed out there is always the local chippy van to fulfill their needs.

Edited for spelling correction............there/their.......sorry.

[JessTheDog]

What next? No more rations, bring your own packed lunch to war?

The SGF can in theory go to the mess, or home for a meal, however this is not 100% guaranteed!

Penny pinching crap, probably in advance of the PAYD system where every bean will be counted! We've already seen the travelling time removed from the grant, albeit with some element of discretion to the unit commander - however, you can bet money that the pressure will be on to only to grant this in exceptional cases!

Morale is sinking fast...very fast, in our under-resourced and over-tasked organisation! We can still find the odd £5millon on new No 1 uniforms though...glad to see the men and women at the ministry have clear sight of what is important!

[ZH875]

From SRENNAPS making desisionsIf this is the example of your spelling, maybe you are only fit to do gate guard.

I Did 13 Years at Wyton with many Guard and Guard Commander duties to carry out, some with food, many without. When I went to work, I took my butty box, did the same on guard too. Cannot see where the problem is.

Next, you will be wanting aircrew to land next to the nearest McDonalds, so they can buy their own lunch.

Lets face it, who cares if a Flt Sgt of 30 years experience has to sit on a gate at 2 in the morning with a gun because there are no airmen on the camp to do the job Correct.

But why should it only be airmen who do the guarding, why not Junior Officers, who knows, if a few more of them did it, there would be less of them complaining at being stopped on the gate.

Question:

How many people work at Wyton?


Answer:

Nearly half of them.

[Maple 01]

Think the general level of responses to SRENNAPS is depressing and just about sums up the old Officer/NCO divide which I had hoped we had moved away from - aren’t we all on the same side? And what were all those 'welfare of the troops' lessons about at Cranwell if not this sort of thing? :*

Those that haven't done much guard can't see a problem.......perhaps those still in would like to contact OC Reg and volunteer for a few shifts before they ask 'why should guard be treated as anything special?' Unless things have changed recently it is an 'unestablished task' that takes away already overstretched manpower from their primary tasking and places an extra burden on those covering for the poor sod jiffed for the umpteenth time.

If I remember rightly the bean counters don't even let the lads have tea/coffee, it's usually down to the Station commander to provide funds through some slush fund - and knowing that just how 'special' do we feel?

I don't know where Opso does guard (or IF he has), most places I've been you're out for hours about with a patrols thrown in as a bonus in your 'off time' - and not many mobile chip-shops are open at 2 a.m.

Now, if you're looking for banter how about 'why shouldn't aircrew pay for their inflight meals?' :ok:

I took my butty box, did the same on guard too. Cannot see where the problem is.

So that's settled then

How about it BEagle? Fancy reimbursing HM Taxpayer for all the free scoff the V-Bomber boys used to get? ;)

[SRENNAPS]

ZH875,
Cheap shot at my spelling.

If you spent 13 years at wyton you are a sad man. You may have worked hard on sqns before this place turned into the DLO. But at the end of the day you are typical of the East Anglia Air Force that has tried to spend their time in one place.

You may have done a tour overseas but you probably asked for your posting home to be the same place from where you came from. My idea of an air force (that includes my wife) was to spend my life travelling to as many different areas of UK and the world as possible.

My opinion is that people that spend years in the same place become lame and lathargic in all they do. It also affects their attidute towards RAF life.

Rgds

PS. Any spelling mistakes- don't bother

[ZH875]

Srennaps, FYI Five of my years at Wyton were in the DLO, thats why I know how much work isn't done.

I am on my 10th tour, so have moved around enough, including an 'overseas' tour at Lossiemouth. I am not from East Anglia and do not want to live there either.

I have some good jobs which were very interesting, which demanded a lot of hard work, and no matter how hard I tried, I never became lethargic or lame (so I am told).

My last tour request was for somewhere over 350 miles from my original home. Also I do not think that over 28 years service has changed the way I feel over the RAF.

Perhaps people who whinge when put on guard could be shot by the rest of the guard force who do a sterling job without any whingeing.

In retrospect, would I join up again if I was leaving school, - YES

So be a good man and go back on patrol.

[Maple 01]

an 'overseas' tour at Lossiemouth

:oh: So never made it out of the UK?:D

In 28 years? Impressive! ;) (OK, that was cheap)


I'll stag-on now Sir, if that's alright with you, begging your pardon.....[touches forelock...] it’s ever so good of you to condescend to talk to the likes 'o' me....

Nice to see the 'shut-up and face the front' attitude is still alive

[Scud-U-Like]

ZH875

Shouldn't that be "whinging" and hasn't "that's" got an apostrophe?

If you're going to be a pedant, you'd better be whiter than white.

[SRENNAPS]

ZH875,
Please do not get me wrong. I am not whinging, I am trying to make a point. Sadly some people (maybe like yourself) take the easy awnser and think that I am whinging.
That is why our so called perkes have been eroded away over the years. As I said earlier most people are very easy and quick to make c???p desicions that affect people when it does not affect themselves. A lot of other people who could make a difference to that desicion are quite happy to sit back because it does not affect them.

Please let me give you an example:
I was one of the first to deploy tp Ali Al Salam. It was a dump with the majority of the det living in Billy Smart tents. Two civil servants lived in the Holiday Inn in Kuwait City and they dictated the number of toilet rolls we were alllowed to use. Thank fully we had a Gutsy DetCo whom insisted that these civil sevants would live with us in the crap. They joined us but after two days they decieded that we no longer needed them and they went back home to blighty.
Some people take the easy option out when hard work comes along and pretend they have done a good job. Others do the hard job and the minute they make a comment get classed as a whinger.

And when it comes to guard at Wyton - I love it - it gets me away from all the knobs that have been at Wyton for 13 years.

[ZH875]

And when it comes to guard at Wyton - I love it - it gets me away from all the knobs that have been at Wyton for 13 years. Unless of course, they are on the other shift. Hope it rains heavily on your next patrol.

And Scud-U-like - Probably, but then again I did fail English O Level (would probably be issued with an A++ A level these days) And I ain't white.

[SRENNAPS]

How predicable - a man that has to use (or blame) the other shift.

However I am saddened by the responce to this thread and the point I was trying to make.

The bottem line is, that I see an air force where front line sqns do the work - because they have to. They do not have time to justify their own cause. Sadly too many people are in the position where they should be looking afer the FEW, but wont because it might upset someone above them.
The having or paying for meals on guard is trivia, but the erosion of attitude that sticks up for the principles of service life, will destroy everything that some of us beleive in.

PS ZH875 - How I would love to meet you in a pub and talk about this. Do you use pubs or Messes and socialize?

[DummyRun]

He haa!
Isn't Pprununing great after chucking out time!
Guarding at Brampton, Wyton and Hensomewhere, are they still open?....dry your eyes chaps;
B@llbagged engineers do guard duty at Lyneham and then do it at Basrah whilst soldiers at Bulford, Tidworth and Larkhill are guarded by MoD Plod.......
My point is that the situation in PMTC Cmd is not ideal but spare a thought for those who fix aeroplanes for 18 hrs do guard, get mortared and then go back to mending aircraft.
P.S Just a thought but how about using the MP's manning the speed traps in Basrah for somthing useful like guarding and maybe using the engineers for engineering...doh!!!!

Quote.

Oi you, slow down and put your seat belt on.

But Cpl we're under mortar attack.....

Well that's as maybe Sir, but it's more than my jobsworth.....

LoadMoving.............

[Scud-U-Like]

DummyRun

Bearing in mind there have been more fatalities on Telic in road traffic accidents, than in mortar attacks, it was probably good advice.

[ZH875]

Dummy Run, you got it in one.

Why do RAFP never do guard, or the RAF Regiment.

Just lets pick on the engineers again.

Some secondary duties get you off the guard list, but take you away from your proper work in the first place, as most people these days carry out secondary duties during work time.

I just think that srennaps needs to get away from BraHenTon and get a proper job.

[Maple 01]

Why do RAFP never do guard, or the RAF Regiment.

At an (ex) Top Secret Radar base in East Anglia (for sale, no reasonable offer refused) it's almost exclusively Police on the gate with Reg. Even OC Reg was seen doing a stint last week!

[pshakey]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering, but where exactly is the 'Professional Pilot's' part of this rumour?:confused:

[adr]

Sorry to interrupt the bickering, but where exactly is the 'Professional Pilot's' part of this rumour?Military Aircrew
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.
- http://www.pprune.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=10

[SRENNAPS]

ZH875

[QUOTE]
Some secondary duties get you off the guard list, but take you away from your proper work in the first place, as most people these days carry out secondary duties during work time.

I Could not agree with you more, yet these are the people that seem to get on and not the ones left to do the real work.

[QUOTE]
I just think that srennaps needs to get away from BraHenTon and get a proper job.

Again I could not agree with you more. Please somebody bring back RAFG so I can go back to the culture of Work Hard, Play Hard that I used to enjoy so much.

I think we got off on the wrong foot last night.

[sparkie]

Excellent thread made my otherwise boring afternoon come alive.
Hey dont be too hard on srennaps..he does have a point. Mind you, I am tempted to launch into ' during my 37 years in the RAF I spent many nights with a weapon in my hand' but judging by the banter on this site it might get misinterpreted! so I wont.

But seriously folks...with numbers reducing to less than 42000, thanks to Bliars wonderful team of d*ckh*ads, makes you wonder who will be next on the gate...Station Execs maybe?

Makes my days in Singers in the 60's seem a little tame...patrolling around a Blackburn Beverley with a '303' stuck in my hands, repeating to myself halt/stamata/dur (oh no that was Cyprus during Black Maks reign)

I recall one balmy nighta few years ago, thinks it was Ruddy Manor, doing my guard commanders bit with the sangers, heard this voice saying , 2 number 16's, fried rice and some beansprouts' one of the lads was using his mobile to order some takeaway nosh...seems PAYD was there in spirit, even then!!

Its a mans life in the forces.......so they told me

[D-IFF_ident]

A few observations:

1. How much does a meal cost? £2.00? A small investment for morale, perhaps.

2. Aren't guarding duties being civilianised? Doesn't an increased security level mean a couple more middle-aged ladies in yellow coats on the gate?

3. Holding Officers make good guards; back when I was a lad I held and did my guard commander stint.

4. I understand that, in the USAF, even the pilots flying for 12 hours don't get given food - they have to buy it. Not many options for which chip shop to go to when you're 6 miles up with a B52 strapped to your back ;)

Personally, I'd keep giving the free meals, but if stopping buys another hours worth of fuel then soz fellas - :{ deal with it.

[Stan Bydike]

Maple 01,

You could be opening up a whole new can of worms with your last comments pn page 1 about overseas tours.:D

I have served now for 31 years and despite asking on every ACR for an overseas tour the nearest I have got is the South of England:{

Returning to the topic, why are we constantly eroding conditions in the service. This is not really about the topic as a specific more about being nibbled to death by ducks.

[Maple 01]

I confess, I was being a little hard on the chap for being a 'stay-at-home when a lot of people never get the chance to go overseas- but why let reality get in the way of banter?;) And his was a little unkind to a Techie, which used to be my job!

-nick

[opso]

I don't know, I step away for a couple of hours and it seems to turn in to a slanging match.

SRENNAPS: Doing some quick sums and I find that feeding the SGF and 1 person in each of the comcen, ops and med centre on night shifts and at weekends only (ie the quieter periods) comes in at slightly over £10,000 per annum. Now whilst in % terms, that's a tiny portion of any stn's budget, it's still a lot of money. Considering that budgets have shrunk significantly over the past several years (Sorry proone, increased in a very odd way that has left less money kicking around on each of the stns despite their being fewer stns than 10 years ago!;) ) and stn cdrs don't have enough in the pot to maintain the buildings we have, I can sympathise with their decision not to spend >£10,000 on food for people that aren't entitled to it. Cash is so tight that budget managers are stopping anything they don't have to.Whilst it is detrimental to the morale of those on guard, if it comes down to a choice between having working toilets in a hangar or free food for the guards, I'd spend on the toilets too. After all, across the air force, people spend an average of 2 weeks per annum on guard and 36 weeks at their normal place of work, making the normal workplaces the best place to fork out on matters affecting morale.

I wish it didn't come down to squabbling over the pennies, but it does. What there is has to be targetted to be most effective.

[Maple 01]

£10,000

Hmmm, that's about the cost of 10 MoD chairs, still, important to get the priorities right isn’t it? And what about that incident at Benson a while back with £30,000 of soft furnishings?

Lets you know just how much the mob values their 'most important asset'

if stopping buys another hours worth of fuel then soz fellas - deal with it.

Fine, but why stop at the guard force? Why not make the lads on det in Iraq pay food and accom to pay for another flying hour of fuel?

Or perhaps, if it's that important the Airships should give-up some of their perks first, rather than some poor SAC jiffed for guard nights again?

[FJJP]

It's all down to the bean counters now running the Forces. OK, here's a challenge that I bet no-one can answer...

Quantify 'morale' in terms of pounds and new pence.

[SRENNAPS]

opso,
Nice mathmatical answer. But is this not the hopeless attidute that so many accept these days. We readily resign ourselves to cuts that affect buildings, toilets, guard forces, morale and ultamately Sqns, spares and equipment, manpower and you name anything else you can think of.

However I know for a fact that other public services do manage to maintain basic priciples for their work force. Like subsistance towards unsocialiable working hours, decent and practical uniforms associated with decent kit that support their profession.
Tell me this - How come MOD civil Servants of lower ranks can claim higher motor milage allowance or better hotels then us. And when it comes to private companies I dont even want to start on how they look after their workforce. If they can maintain this for their work force then why cant we.

The problem is that we have too many people that are so readliy able to accept cost cutting, without ant thought to the work force or the implications it will have on morale that we find ourselves in this position. I.e. Sod the troops - Save Money and I will get promoted.

My initial whinge at guard force meals being taken away is the mere tip of the iceberg. Where will it end. My God we are allready a force smaller than an average turnout at a premier football match.

[KENNYR]

opso...........I have been out of the forces now for 15 years. Please enlighten me, who is now entitled to eat at Her Majesty's expense???

[allan907]

Just a small comment from a crusty who left over 10 years ago....I was deeply saddened to see the outbreak of a slanging match between officers/SNCOs/Airmen which wouldn't be allowed in the 'real' world but, more importantly, between people trying to do the same job. Perhaps it is indicative of the reducing force, reducing morale, and reducing assets. It's a bit like a pack of dogs turning on each other when food gets scarce.

And returning to the topic......when I was on the P desk at MOD dealing with food and accommodation matters we (ie, my signature) made the ruling (with the 'help' of the Treasury) that meals for guard forces were exactly the same as meals for a normal shift, ie 'livers-out' brought in their own, or paid for it at the mess. The situation was different to war/TACEVAL where Treasury accepted that, beyond 48 hours, free food/accommodation would be provided. This was not an easy decision to make but I was getting a huge amount of pressure from the Treasury. They also tried something similar with the food charge at Mount Pleasant. I grabbed a wheel in Treasury and my tri service colleagues and dragged them all off to MPA to see the mouldy carrots etc for themselves. I am please to say that I won that battle and food charges were scrapped (although not sure what the situation is now).

I then had to deal with the guard force decision a short time later when I became an OC Admin. Now this was was in 1990 so the problem has been with the armed forces (applies equally to Army and RN) since approximately 1988/89. The answer at my station was to fudge the problem and hide it in the mess accounting (shhhh - don't tell anyone), plus divert some cash from non-public funds to supply tea/coffee etc. However, I suspect that with the drawdown to painful levels the options described above are no longer able to be operated.

Hope the history and background helps to sweeten the pill (probably not!)

[BEagle]

allan907, regarding MPA, last time I was there on a temporary ground det we had to work on Saturday mornings, meaning more than 5 days per week, to be entitled to free meals in the Mess. But it was amazing how many pongo Landrovers were still parked in their slots when we used to drive to work at 0800! Some folk took the pi$$ and ignored the ruling - so we encouraged 1312 and 1435 to maximise their approaches and high power overshoots on the short RW on Saturday mornings past the DeathStar to provide a gentle reminder of the main reason for the existence of the aerodrome! Of course many folk worked 24/7 on QRA, but that's a different matter to the permanent staff who couldn't be ar$ed to stagger in to their desks on Saturdays!

You're right about the lack of sufficient 'noise' within which to hide a bit of creative funding to aid the guard force's predicament. But at the covert Oxonian aerodrome, all clubs and societies are invited (that's 'invited' in a sort of "Err, Reggie and Ronnie would like to 'invite' you for a little chat, squire....." way) to pay a levy of £7 per capita into a "Community Bank" which is used to provide assistance for such deserving cases. I'm personally quite happy to stump up £7 if it provides something to assist the morale of the poor $ods with guns on the gate - and it also means that any other civilians who are allowed to participate in service clubs or societies will also be contributing directly to the welfare of the station's service personnel.

[ShyTorque]

I would just like to take this opportunity to say thankyou for reminding me why I left the service ten years ago.

If the replies to thread are typical, the infighting and back biting has got worse, a sure sign of decreasing morale. Not really surprising, in view of this government's attitude to the military. :(

[JessTheDog]

Working within a framework of reducing expenditure, it is clear that cash has to be pointed at operational areas rather than domestic. However, this is only if the argument that reducing expenditure is accepted in the first place!

The issue of guard force meals is, admittedly, not a major crisis. However, when this is considered alongside the change in the public holiday travelling time rules (to the detriment of most) and other such issues, it has a definite quantifiable impact on morale. This is even more so when the cuts are juxtaposed alongside the money being burnt on such projects as new No 1s (£5million) and RAF identity patches, not to mention the refurbishment of MOD main building and the associated new chairs! This makes most personnel very angry. I am looking to leave at the next available opportunity and I will not be looking back - the shower at the top have forefeited my loyalty.

It is clear that armed forces personnel need some form of industrial relations recognition, such as the police enjoy. If the police (politically neutral, operational posture) have a federation, why shouldn't we? It cannot be illegal if we work under the same Human Rights Act and some of our European NATO allies have such representation.

As to why we don't have any representation? Because this would make the cost cutting agenda far more difficult! Check QRs and the HRA 98 - there is nothing to prevent personnel forming or joining a union! It would be career suicide, however! However, the benefits would be clear: any cutbacks would be opposed publicly, at great embarrasment to those at the top who claim the armed forces are treated properly.

Rant over!

[The Gorilla]

Jess

But surely that's part of the problem!!!

Quote:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Check QRs and the HRA 98 - there is nothing to prevent personnel forming or joining a union!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the Services you have to have a rule PERMITTING something to be done!! If it's not in writing somewhere then you aren't allowed to do it!! I came to call this the Services Negativity Rules.
It may not say anywhere you can't have a union or federation but we all know it's not allowed!!

But then of course, if something is in writing to say you can do it the rule is thus written that any one over the rank of Flt Lt can therefore interpret the rule differently!! That is why 2 different units within the same command can have different ways of doing things. This very thread concerning Guard Force meals is a good example of that one.

My experience of Civilian Street over the last very pleasant 12 months has been that if it isn't in writing to say you can't do it, it must possible to do it!!

As regards cutbacks, they will occur because that is what BOTH the Government and Senior Officers desire. Jackson wont be a senior soldier forever, and no doubt wants to follow the same path your most loyal Day went down!!

As for a union or Federation helping to oppose cutbacks? No chance unless you get the right to strike!! It would be a toothless and clawless tiger!!

:ok:

[buoy15]

I stood in as a rep at at a stn management meeting a few years ago, which, needless to say, had an extensive agenda.
At this meeting, OC catering won his case to stop supplying free makings to the guard force so they could no longer enjoy free tea and coffee as it was in his words, "hammering his budget"
Next item on the agenda
All sections had to submit bids for office computer furniture, as to date, the stn was underspent by some £75,000 - ie, if you don't spend it you lose it!
Every office on my Sqn at the time was jam packed with this furniture awaiting the arrival of the computers - probably the same stn wide.
When I mentioned this madness in respect to the tea and coffee for the guard force, I received a "thousand yard stare" and a "that's a different vote - next!!"

FJJP Morale and pound for penny value - simple: MOR ALE

Drink up - Love many, trust a few, always paddle your own canoe

[KENNYR]

If my company sends me on a business trip, they pay for the flight (as do the Forces). They provide me with accommodation or reimburse me (as do the Forces). They provide me with meals or reimburse me (as do the Forces). However if my employer wants me to work extra hours he pays me to do that and provides me with or reimburses me for meals during those extra hours (very much unlike the Forces).

If the Forces expect their manpower to work a full days work and then follow that full days work with "overtime" such as guard duties/orderly officer etc then those involved should at least receive some basic form of rations/meals paid for by HM Forces.

The men and women of the Armed Forces deserve much more than they actually receive and are now treated like second class citizens. It is about time that the hierarchy of the Armed Forces took their collective heads out of their butts and started recognizing the contribution and the sacrifices that the members of the Armed Services make for the security of the United Kingdom and the world.

[Scud-U-Like]

Gorilla

I have to disagree with your last point. The police have no right to strike, but the Police Federation is generally recognised as representing the police service very effectively.

We do have a limited degree of representation, in the form of the Air Force Board Liaison Team (the other services have equivalent teams), whose reports tend not to pull any punches. Could someone explain, however, why AFBLT reports are not released to the press and published on the RAF website?

buoy15

Good point. It seems to be an annual ritual where I work, where an underspend in one or other budget (usually IT) has to be squandered under the 'use it or lose it' rule.

Hats off to the Stn Cdr at a secret Hampshire helo base, some years ago, who refused to play the budget game and creatively used funds to build new single living accommodation. Which goes to prove, it can be done, if the will is there.

[BEagle]

Ah - that wonderful 'different vote' nonsense. Like the time before computers when we weren't allowed to demand more lined writing paper. So I ruled a whole load of parallel lines on a sheet of blank paper and photocopied it 144 times - that was OK!

Down at Base Aerea Gringo, in the sun-soaked Islas Malvinas, they used to have the wonderful 'vehicle liability meeting' or 'Landrover lottery'. The poor $ods who lived up on the mountains were fed up with risking their necks in BVs and old rag-sided 90" 4-banger Landrovers, so when we got to the bit about S01s being 'entitled' to TDi Landrover station wagons as it was 'in keeping with their status', there was a minor revolt. We then discovered that some f*ckwit had secured a contract for Landrovers, but that the warranty was invalidated if they were driven off-road. So all the best Landys ended up carting fat-ar$ed blunties around the base, whilst only the decrepit old tat was used off-road! They tried to explain it away by saying that the Landrover staion wagons could be fitted with more than blah seats and hence under some Eurorule could only be driven by people over a particular age, ruling out many of the youngsters up in the hill sites! We really got very pi$$ed off when they next started talking about providing R&R wagons for the permanent staff when they went to Ascension.....!!

[DuckDodgers]

And this has got what exactly to do with Mil Aircrew?

[JessTheDog]

I remember the Police Federation slow-clapping at least one minister who bothered to turn up to their AGM...think what would happen to Hoon!

As someone who has done their share of adding up, I recognise the budget nonsense. Surely, if we spout off about "mission command," then give the COs a lump sum and let them spend it as they please!

Alas, the only certainty over the next few years is that, as servicemen and women who are used to giving 100%, every last drop of sweat will be milked out of us by the bean counters and it will not be pleasant. Time for a sharp exit!

[Maple 01]

DuckDodgers,

I refer you to that answer given to my right honourable colleague pshakey two pages ago......

You could try reading the whole thread.....

[Scud-U-Like]

DuckDodgers

It has a lot to do with mil aircrew, many of whom do stn guard duty. That notwithstanding, as has already been explained to you (twice now), this site is not exclusively for military aircrew.

[Sumpy]

What an interesting thread to read. It's been some time since I had a rumage through PPrune, leaving DLO Wyton has really cut down on my internet browsing time, never mind, we all have our crosses to bear.

So here I am on a Sunday evening, just home from a 12 hour shift. Started 06:30, finished 18:30, home, spot of tea and browse the net.

Popped into the crewroom first thing, take over from the night shift (wake them gently, been a long 12 hours for them as well). Cup of tea from the off going shift, quick handover and DI, check the running faults (reds? & greens?) and settle into a leather 'lazy boy' recliner (tax well spent for a change) to wait. SAR flight? - No, but proud to say I spent 6 years on them in good old 'Walters' days.

Gaze round the walls of the crewwroom, what no HSE posters, no COSHH assessment hanging from the tea urn warning of dangers of fairy liquid, no pile of orders going back months. Looks like the sort of place to relax and watch the olympics, a great crewroom to look after people on 24/7/365. Looks like an old crewroom from before we went PC and anally retentive on orders. Sounds like one as well, plenty of banter and morale. (Probably a bit coarse for a modern crewroom, but I can suffer it).

Sorry back to the point, I think Srennaps has already mentioned me on the first page. I left the RAF with the intention of halving my salary to double my job satisfaction. It didn't really work out that way, after AFC (our equivalent of Options) the salary is respectable, and the job satisfaction has increased beyond measure. On to the meals discussion, to clear a point Srennaps made I don't get free meals because I work a 12 hour shift, however when I am stood down for lunch break, if I am needed to respond (and it happened again today), I get a £20 cash payment and a further break on returning. If I had £20 for each disturbed meal on SAR I wouldn't have to be working now! Then there is the overtime, work late and get paid extra for it, if things don't go according to plan and jobs take longer you get paid more. (Yes I know you are paid 24/7 but it makes you feel valued, not used, to be finacially compensated). And then people say thankyou, your customers and your bosses, that's a novelty. And your bosses are all better at your job than you are, because they used to do it, and still do, another novelty.

Did I enjoy the RAF? Yes definitely
Has it changed for the worse? Yes definitely
Am I glad to be out? Yes definitely

P.S. Did I mention how much I enjoy my new job? You'll spend a lot of time working, try and enjoy it as well.

P.P.S. Sorry I seem to have drifted, only wanted to clear up the meals situation.

[pshakey]

DuckDodgers,

Silly old you!

You made the same mistake as me...............thinking that the Military Aircrew Forum was for Military Aircrew.

I think I'll go and trawl the civvy forums, in the hope that I might find something that vaguely relates to aviation.

As the family's officer so famously said in the bar at RAF Bruggen a few years back:

'The problem with aircrew is that they think the air force revolves around aeroplanes'. :ok:

[SRENNAPS]

Pshakey,

Please may I ask what your problem is.
There are many threads in the Military Aircrew Forum that bare no relation to Military Aircrew.
I dont see you commenting about "this is not about aircrew/flying/bla" there.

Is it that you dont like to acknowledge that there many people in the three services other than aircrew that are not happy with morale at the moment.

We are just venting our frustrations at the moment and this is about the only place we can do it. And I for one am very frustrated.
Sorry to have a go at you.

[FFP]

I'm Mil Aircrew. I'm interested in knowing the developments that affect the groundcrew/personnel that service my aircraft / deal with my pay and leave.

I also did a week as Guard Commander recently and issues such as this make a big difference. Esp when you, as an aircrew mate, can either be aware of such things or turn round and say " Not my prob. Aircrew "

Bit of empathy, understanding and some knowledge about the working conditions of the guys and girls that support us goes a long way.

Just my thoughts . . . . . . . .

[opso]

KENNYR: Whilst I can't quote chapter and verse, I had occasion to dig in to this not so long ago and found that the only way people at home qualify is if they have completed a normal working shift of 9+ hrs followed immediately by another duty of not less than 8 hours in a certain time window (2000-0600 I think, but I can't remember). As far as I could see, it realistically limits rations at public expense to those on a 24hr duty. (I don't claim to be authorative in the exact number of hours or the time window - this is just as close as I can remember it, but it does show the true flavour of the current cat regs.)

allan907: Thanks for that background. I agree, at most places the system has been flexed for years, but the fat has grown so thin these days that most stns haven't been able to hide this cost in the small print for a while now.

[Mad_Mark]

DuckBrains and pnis,

I think you may see now, by reading the posts, that this thread IS relevant to military aircrew as there are many of us that do Guard Commander, and it therefore does effect us :ooh:


Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[The Burning Bush]

Pshakey & Duckdogers -

I think you'll find that the Mil Aircrew bit of PPrune is used by the 'RAF' a bit like ARRSE is for the Army, as a general chat net:= Sorry if you think us mere mortals who are not aircrew should spend our time discussing aircrew stuff, and I know there can't be much else to talk about:rolleyes: So, my advice is fcuk off to another thread if we are boring you, and get used to the rest of the RAF being here.

[Maple 01]

Mr Bush,

Harsh but fair!

pip pip

[kokpit]

So, my advice is fcuk off to another thread if we are boring you, and get used to the rest of the RAF being here.

ROTFLOL.........

Best I wipe that mouthful of coffee out of this keyboard now ;)

[Red Line Entry]

Ducky and Pshakey...

If all else fails, read the flipping instructions:

"Military Aircrew
A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, AND THE BACKROOM BOYS AND GIRLS WITHOUT WHOM NOTHING WOULD EVER LEAVE THE GROUND. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here."

You remind me of the young FJ JP who responded to my comment that the night shift would have a lot of work that evening with:

"Night shift? The groundcrew work at night too?"

(although to be fair, with the level of spares support at the time I could almost forgive him for thinking that)

As an aside, I found that you could generally tell what aircraft type a FJ mate was from by their attitude to groundcrew. Of all of them, air defenders were undoubtedly the worst and the GR1/4 crowd the best.

[woptb]

pshakey,
you appear to think the airforce revolves around you !.
FFP,
while yours was a very considered response, you to are labouring under a common misaprehension. The task/mission is the only 'thing' anyone is supporting. You are just another 'supporting' asset in the chain !.

[airborne_artist]

And this has got what exactly to do with Mil Aircrew?

Duckdodger - it's got a lot to do with aircrew:

1. The lads/ladies who fix your jet also have to do a stag, in which case you need to know, because they are part of your team.

2.If no-one guards your jet then Greenham wimmin or Osama's mates will come along and do more than just zapp a sticker on it, which would p*ss you off because you'd not be able to fly it.

My old man gave me a great piece of advice when I joined (as a baby officer). "Walk around the place, talk to people, find out what they do, where they do it, why they do it and you'll find out about them. When they know you are genuinely interested in them they'll do anything for you."

[The Gorilla]

a_a

Ahh leadership qualities from a bye gone age!! I do remember those days fondly!!

Unfortunately now as rare as a senior officer who keeps his word or doesn't lie!!

:ok:

[la calda]

Winston Churchill, no slouch when it came to the leadership stakes, practised a form of management you won't find in any current works on the subect. He called it MBWA, Management by Walking About. It's amazing how much you can learn by getting off your a**e, taking a walk through the offices, hangars or workshops and TALKING to people. If you haven't tried it I recommend you do so

Incidentally, in my time the Mountain Rescue were generally unpopular with their NCOs as they couldn't be jiffed for guard duty due to their call out committment. Is this still the case? (can't see why it wouldn't be)

[Mad_Mark]

Incidentally, in my time the Mountain Rescue were generally unpopular with their NCOs as they couldn't be jiffed for guard duty due to their call out committment. Is this still the case?

AFAIK it still is at ISK, and rightly so that they don't do the duty. Shame on any of their management that see them in a bad light :mad:

Those guys put in a lot of hard work and effort on the MRT's. Last I heard they had to spend 3 out of every 4 weekends in the mountains training, they were on almost permanent call and went out to save peoples lives, and recover those less fortunate, in treacherous terrain and weather conditions.

Hats off to you guys :ok:

Mad Mark!!! :mad:

[la calda]

Thanks Mad.

Ironic that your knowledge is of ISK as it was there I was referring to in my post.

Other sources of frustration with the MRT was the 'drop everything and run' when the tannoy went. A few of the troops I knew were on NMSU and it was very unpopular when they had to go.

Also there was the fact that they all lived in the same block and seemed to have such a good time of it. Friday evening off at 6, fetch up in some deserted part of the Highlands (unless it was Fort William, great!).

October to January were generally hellish but once the proper winter conditions kicked in the highlands are a magic place to be. And, despite what others may think, Scotland in Spring and Summer is generally a gorgeous place to be. However, it's not always good news on the team. Shared hardships and exposure to danger fosters great esprit but doesn't half make some b******s jealous.

[la calda]

Since MR has crept in I suppose it's worth asking are there any other MR Troops out there who log on, ex or current?

[John Purdey]

ZH875 and others,

My word, what a lot of whingeing! Face your front and get on with it is not a bad idea, or at least it wasn't in the days of yore that I recall so fondly.

[allan907]

la calda I'll put me hand up. Sharjah mainly (it was a loooong time ago) Harry Wagg was the team leader but MR was a very incestuous organisation.

[la calda]

Hi Allan,

time is relative and what seems like a long time to you might be a blink of an eye to another.

My experiences were ISK late 70s, Pete McGowan Team Leader, Don Shanks Depute and the legendary "Heavy" Whalley (amongst other legends) as a team member. The latter at the time was a mess steward but went to St Athan to qualify PTI before returning and eventually becoming Team Leader in his own right.

Memories of the team? Taking part three years running in the Glen Nevis raft race on a raft made of patch material by one of the team members who was in survival equipment.

Any other ex MR out there? Or should we start another topic?

[SRENNAPS]

La Calda,
Thanks for changing the tune on this thread; it got a bit bloody.

I would love you to stay and make the number of hits bigger but I think if you want to attract attention I suggest a new thread.

However, When I was 12 years old I was in Penang, Malaysia, and my RAF serving father was very good friends with a lot of guys on the MRT there. I was taken out by them once into jungles of Penang and we did a jounery up to Western Hill (The Radar Site) off the beaten tracks. As a kid it was brilliant fun. And I know they were all good blokes by the number of bodies that were crashed out in our house after they and my dad had a good night out in George Town Penang.
I wonder if you knew any of them. (Small World maybe??)

[la calda]

Thanks Srennaps, think I'll do just that.

Rgds.

LC.