True or not?

[MystiCKal]

I asked them how it was possible to find a job in the airlines when graduates only get 250 hrs of TT. And this is what I got back...
_______________________

Dear CK

Well I am not sure where you are getting your information from, or which airlines you are looking at, but that is not the case.

We have heard from about 20 or so students that passed here last year, all have
jobs as First Officers with Ryan Air, British Midland, Monarch, Easyjet, all
have only 200/300 hours flight experience.

Regards

Emma

Emma Drakeford
Course Co-ordinator
_________________________________

Make any sense? or am I totally trippin'? If not, why are there still pilots with 3000+ hrs still stressing getting a job when only 200+ hrs is needed for those airlines mentioned above??

[Vee One...Rotate]

20's an awful lot of success stories from one year of one course...at least it seems to be from what I've picked up from these forums about the current climate.

Couldn't help noticing she's the course co-ordinator mind...!

V1R

[er82]

It's obvious isn't it -
Ryanair - fork out £25000 for your own type rating
Easy and Monarch - go to CTC and pay £20000 (or however it works).

[Vee One...Rotate]

It's Easy and Thomas Cook at the moment...it's also £60,000 - all very depressing :ugh:

V1R

[TRon]

Sorry who did you send that email to?

[skyman68]

astreus want money for a type rating, job??? do not even think.

apparently I am not the only one. I have 10 times 200 hours and my e-mails is plenty of :" we do not employ pilots, ...", "sorry, no pilot vacancy..."



:{

[StudentInDebt]

Emma Drakeford is course co-ordinator for Stapleford Flight Centre.

Is 20 students a lot? Depends on how many a school churns out in a year and what counts as a student. Don't forget that Stapleford trains for the modular CPL, even their "Ab-Initio" course is in fact a package of the modular elements. So someone who turns up to just do their IR counts as a graduate.

I'd say 20 from one school was a fair number to have found airline employment in the last 12 months given the recruitment that has been going on in the UK. What percentage it represents of all of last years courses would be interesting.

Why 3000 hour pilots are stressing is that some airlines have over a period of some years adopted a policy of recruiting both experienced and in-experienced FOs (read self-improvers and integrated/modular graduates). Thanks to Sept 11th there is now a glut of both types and the chances of finding a job have for an indiviual have decreased, hence the reason an increasingly sizable minority are now trying to find new ways of getting their foot in the door by undertaking a speculative 737 or A320 type rating.

The low-houred integrated and modular types are now embittered because they've bought into a dream and found that reality doesn't quite live up to what was promised by the marketing men (and women). The experienced self-improvers are also embittered because when they started their career path instructing/air taxi/turbo-prop/jet were the rungs on the ladder they were told would come their way, now they are in open competition with the low-hour types.

We are still slowly emerging from the devastation that Sept 11th caused the aviation industry, we will still be feeling the repercussions for some years to come. Slowly but surely things will improve for both groups but recruitment has never been a nirvana and never will be.

[GGV]

The two current Ryanair threads will tell you more about the future than looking to the past. There is no reason to believe that things have not changed radically.

The reality is that 200 hour pilots are very acceptable - provided that they pay up front for the first type conversion course, accept no basic pay until final line check, and accept half sector pay from loss of the safety pilot until it is deemed that probation is finished.

This is the trend, and that trend is both spreading (from airline to airline) and going downwards (in terms of conditions). We now even have isolated pockets of co-pilots flying for free to "build their first jet hours".

And, never let it be said that there will not be people willing to agree to these terms. The evidence strongly suggests that there are more of them than there are jobs.

Existing pilots, who think that this is nothing to do with them will, in the end, realise that it is not so.... again we can thank Ryanair for showing how to expand the idea to those undertaking their first command, etc.

In each case the "trick" is to perusade pilots to undertake to do something without realising that they will be trapped in a "take it or leave it" situation by expense and/or absence of an early contract. Nothing becomes clear until they are committed and it is too late. You would have thought that people would learn ...

[CrashDive]

SID & GGV... never a truer word said !

P.s. SID, to my memory there was a 'recruitment nirvana', it was in 1989 ( uhm, or was it '88 ? ). My memory recalls one airline that used to have a recruitment walk-in ( located at a hotel near LGW ) - i.e. collect newly issued license from CAA, go to said hotel, and start airline job the next day; well, almost ;) - indeed the market was apparently so short of drivers that it was reported that even a monkey could get a job as a pilot, so long as it walked in the door with a CPL/IR; I kid you not !

[High Wing Drifter]

I'm going to stick my neck out now.

The HWD prediction: In 2-3 years there won't be enough pilots to go around! Well for a short period of time at least**


**This assumes no massive acts of global terrorism nor globally transmitable diseases!!

[Khaosai]

er82,
maybe worth a little research prior to posting something you know little about. Rgds.

[beauport potato man]

Khaosai,

short replies always highlight a lack of knowledge. If you're gonna be cutting at least back it up.

Obviously you mean that *you* know more, so why not contribute to the thread and enlighten us?

Besides, i agree with er82. I know of 2 people who were deemed "unsuitable" low hour guys when they applied to Brittannia....... one short CTC couse later and they were deemed good enough for the B75/767.

Money and NOT experience does make all the difference. Certainly now. Thats why CTC is so popular.

And before you shoot your junior mouth off, i have a jet job i'm happy in.

[Khaosai]

Hi beauport,
would not dream of shooting my mouth off. Not in my nature. Flying a 146 is perfectly acceptable to most people, me included. Back to the CTC aspect of my previous post for er82's benefit. Yes i came through the scheme in Jan 96, paid six grand for the course and recieved a type rating on the 757, which in turn allowed me to gain valuable experience worldwide.. Monthly flying allowances were slightly more than i recieved as a flying instructor, roughly 600 quid. Fortunately, due to the scheme's infancy we managed to get housing benefit which was obviously an added bonus. The initial six grand was paid back to me in monthly instalments, much to the delight of the bank manager who initially and reluctantly loaned me the money. Being a carpenter in a previous life and not having direct access to the funds resulted in the whole process being a gamble. I think it paid off having flown 757, 744 and now on 777. Good luck in your career. Rgds.

[beauport potato man]

what would you say then to the many people finishing courses, having passed all the JAA exams, who are being held to financial ransom by CTC if they want to actually get a job??

I know it's their choice whether to go there or not, but at the moment it's where the majority of the jobs are. Just how much extra do you learn in their sim? Should it mean that those choosing CTC shouldn't bother with the MCC?

And also how do you explain to those many experienced turbo-prop people - in my company certainly - that their 1000 - 2000 hrs line experience doesn't cut it for the likes of Mon, Easy, Brits....who would rather a 200hr guy with a bit of CTC sim?

And thanks for biggin up the 146. Coupled with my tax-free life style, living by the beach, it's just what i want!

BPM

[Khaosai]

Hi, not sure about the being held to ransom bit. There are many other avenues to look down other than the CTC introduction as you noted. In an ideal world we would all love to go straight on to the jet of our choice. The trouble is, with all of us guys, me included, is that we all think that a licence should give us a right to the nice jobs out there. Nice idea, but in reality you need to work hard to earn that first job, and any job thereafter for that matter. Very frustrating for everyone concerned. People like you, are infact more suited to going on to, say a 757, than people like me, i.e approved course over self improver route. That is why BA etc, use these type of courses in the first place Whichever way you look at it, CTC generally come up with a reasonable product, regardless of background. The selection procedure when i went through, albeit almost 9 years ago, was very indepth and intensive. These guys running CTC are well respected in the industry, very experienced, with all of the appropriate contacts. That alone, will generate enough business for as long as they decide to keep training. They are here to stay. Maybe they combine an MCC as part of the training now, i am unsure on that front. Tax free, on the beach, sounds very familiar, enjoy. Rgds

[AdobePilot]

M80 - I'd be interested to know where you get those figures for retirement from. I really hope you're right, but I recall going to a conference back in 2001 where they were saying that there would be a massive number of ATPL holders retiring in 2004! It seems that it's just a carrot on the end of the flying school's stick, trying to get prospective students to sing the £60,000 check!

[High Wing Drifter]

There are some dubious retirement statistics on the CAA site ( http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/default.asp?page=408)
If I am reading the table right the peak in 2000 was with 52 year olds so they would be due to retire in 2008 (unless they are BA in which case they are already practicing their sandwedge technique). Strange all those 70 year olds though. Wassat all about?

I am optimistic as in this country, we have only one scalable mass transport medium. Everything else is already at capacity whereas there is plenty that can be done to increase airways capacity. The scalability of air transport applies worldwide. Over the next few years there will be more flights, in small a/c shoving around more passengers to more varied locations. That means more pilots! Albeit probably not on the same pay rates.

I also think oil is the biggest problem we face. But technology is improving and a/c, in the last 20 years, are so much more efficient. The same exponential improvement could be apparent for years to come.