NBC attempts heli hijack / Terrorist threat to helicopters

[mattpilot]

Mostly concerns the US, but still important:

AERO NEWS (http://www.aero-news.net/news/genav.cfm?ContentBlockID=ff753694-4e36-4000-8b50-29b7f1053b7f&Dynamic=1)




General Aviation News

Aero-News Alert: Non-Aviation Media Trying To Discredit GA
Thu, 12 Aug '04

American Association of Airport Executives issues alert, reports NBC trying to set up GA facilities and FBO's
Rebecca Morrison, Staff Vice President, Transportation Security Policy Department at the American Association of Airport Executives, has transmitted the following memo and requested widest possible distribution:

The following is a description of an incident that occurred today (11 Aug) at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, a large GA facility. We are sharing this story with you as there are indications that it might be repeated throughout the country. We would like to thank Bob McDaniel, the Director at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, for sharing the details of the incident outlined below.

Earlier today two Middle Eastern men attempted to penetrate our security. They telephoned one of my helicopter FBOs and asked about a charter flight. After discussion of price and directions to the business, they arrived an hour later. When the office agent asked how they were going to pay for the flight they produced cash. When asked for ID, they produced driver’s licenses from two different states and they were driving a car licensed in a third state.

Things didn’t smell right so the mechanic took them into the hangar to see the aircraft while the office person called the FBI and local police. The helicopter they were going to fly was blocked in by other aircraft so the mechanic was able to stall them by having to slowly shuffle the blocking planes. Meanwhile the two men got their backpacks and odd-shaped luggage out of their car. Soon the local police arrived and they were hauled off to jail in handcuffs.

After a little time behind bars, the FBI verified that the two men were employed by NBC New York and were on assignment to get a story of how easy it is to charter a helicopter for a terrorist attack. The men had stayed in a local hotel and purchased box cutters, leather-man knives, and other potential weapons at the local Wal-Mart using a credit card. The box cutters had been hidden in the lining at the bottom of the back packs and the other weapons were hidden throughout their baggage. They had audiotaped the telephone conversation with Arlene and were going to use it as part of a national news story about how easy it is to get information and directions to the location of the helicopter and then hijack it to commit a terrorist attack.



I doubt they will be back at our airport soon and this is a story that will never be seen since they were caught. A very “well-done” to my FBO and staff and the local FBI and police response forces. We have since learned that we were the first airport where this had been attempted and NBC planned to attempt similar penetration stories around the country. Please help me spread the word to other airports.




**edit** Story also on www.aopa.org

[Airbubba]

Yep, these 'journalists' are always at it...

An earlier thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=77650

[pigboat]

Not surprising. Some years ago, NBC did a television exposé on Chevy and GMC pickups. The vehicles were supposed to be fire hazards in a side collision because of the location of the fuel tanks. The program showed a whole slew of firey collisions, with doomsday commentary by the film's producers. General Motors was understandably upset and questioned their facts. It turned out that NBC had made one teensy weensy modification to the vehicles fuel tanks. It seems the tanks wouldn't explode as they were supposed to in the staged collisions, so NBC had strapped small explosive charges to them and would set the charges off by remote control. Presto, made to order infernos.
As for the helicopter charter, the operator should have taken off and then kicked the ba$tards out the door from a thousand feet. Nip that little experiment in the bud, pronto. :mad: :yuk:

[411A]

Some (many) jurnos will do anything for a juicy story.
Sincerely hope they a locked up for a very long time...and not at a federal country-club facility either.:( :(

[WestWind1950]

similar tricks have been done over here, too, so it's not just interesting for the USA.... thanks for the report.
TV "journalists" made a report on how easy it was to the security at Frankfurt airport.... and in another report they actually walked around a hangar without any checks. ... and of course the usual illegal items in carry-on baggage.
The tale above was soooo obvious, especially the guys looking middle east and having lots of baggage.... how stupid are these reporters? OK... better not answer that ;)

Westy

[Airbubba]

>>The tale above was soooo obvious, especially the guys looking middle east and having lots of baggage.... how stupid are these reporters? OK... better not answer that <<

Here in the U.S. the inevitable follow on story will be that the perps were racially profiled, how unfair, etc., etc...

[WhooEver]

What if these 2 guys had not been "middle eastern men", think the charter company would have thought it suspicious then? I wonder.

Are we now assuming all terrorists are middle eastern? This seems bigger victory for xenophobia than it does for security.

Good to see some lazy journo's finally getting caught though.

[RoyHudd]

Define "xenophobic". Most terrorists in fact have been from the Middle East in the last few years. fact.

[Kingfisher]

A stiff jail sentence for intent to Hijack should ensure these losers report news and not try to make it. If they were white it would have looked like a criminal scenario and they probably have been picked up just the same

[Airbubba]

TV crew testing terror defense is caught [and then released without charge]

By Doug Moore
Of the Post-Dispatch

08/12/2004

Arlene Thomas grew suspicious when two men with out-of-state drivers licenses and a large wad of cash came into her Sauget helicopter hangar Wednesday morning and said they wanted to see St. Louis landmarks from the sky.

The men, whom Thomas described to police as of "Middle Eastern descent," were carrying a duffel bag and a backpack and drove up in a rental car with Texas license plates.

The signs pointed to terrorism - that's exactly the impression the two men, an NBC News producer and cameraman, were trying to create.

Thomas called police, who searched the bags and the men and found a butane lighter, box cutter, two knives, duct tape, a powdery substance and a bottle filled with a clear liquid. The men also had maps of New York, Chicago, San Francisco and St. Louis with major landmarks highlighted in yellow.

The two men, John Zito, an Italian from New York, and Tyrone Edwards, who police described as an Asian-Indian from Atlanta, were part of a story that NBC planned to air Thursday night about security at small airports that charter helicopters. But after the plan fell through in Sauget, the incident at the airport was reduced to a brief mention at the end of the newscast.

Thomas and her husband, Clarke, run Fostaire Helicopters from St. Louis Downtown Airport in Cahokia. The Fostaire hangar is situated on airport land in Sauget. It was that small town's Police Department that arrived on the scene.

"They put out every red flag you could possibly put out," said Sauget Police Chief Patrick Delaney, who handled the call with three of his officers before turning the case over to two members of the FBI's terrorist task force. "We found out they worked for NBC News and were part of a group (of the network's journalists) throughout the country doing a story to see how easy it would be to infiltrate helicopter hangars. Arlene Thomas was on her toes and knew something wasn't right and should be looked into, and contacted us right away."

Thomas said her suspicions began when one of the men called earlier in the day to say he wanted to take a "scenic helicopter ride" but had no interest in knowing how much it would cost.

Zito and Edwards were handcuffed and taken to the Sauget Police Department, where authorities found that the powdery substance was foot powder and the clear liquid was water. Four hours later, the NBC employees were released without charges but with the wrath of airport director Bob McDaniel.

"I'm absolutely outraged that NBC News is out here trying to create news rather than report news," McDaniel said after meeting with members of the Transportation Security Administration. "This clearly scared the hell out of a lot of folks and wasted a lot of valuable resources, tying up emergency forces, and all of it was entirely unnecessary.

"If they wanted to learn about security, we'd have been happy to take them on a ride and show how it works," McDaniel said. Thomas said an apology was in order from NBC to her and everyone who was involved.

McDaniel said he sent out a bulletin immediately to airport directors across the country, alerting them to NBC's actions.

NBC defended its actions in an e-mail statement to the Post-Dispatch, saying that the employees did nothing wrong in determining the security measures at helicopter charter services.

"Nothing they did or carried was illegal," said NBC spokesman Allison Gollust. "In Illinois, the system worked and ... our reporting will include this part of the story, evidence that civilians like those in Illinois are making attempts to keep the skies safe."

[Doors to Automatic]

First I don't see what this news crew were doing wrong. It's good that there are prople out there testing the system. Fortunately on this occasion the system worked, but imagine if it didn't. I'd far rather have it fail with a harmless news crew than some real terrorists. At least then lessons can be learned before its too late!

Secondly to anyone thinking its xenophobic to target people of "middle eastern" appearance - tell me, how many of the 9/11 terrorists were not of "middle eastern" appearance? This is a fact, not xenophobia or racism.

[PAXboy]

"Nothing they did or carried was illegal," said NBC spokesman Allison Gollust. "In Illinois, the system worked and ... our reporting will include this part of the story, evidence that civilians like those in Illinois are making attempts to keep the skies safe." So they get their story anyway in a win-win? What if the 'middle eastern looking men' had been British nationals? Or Australian? Or ... French? Long live spin. :yuk:

[con-pilot]

Well will have to wait and see if this story gets as much air time because the ruse ‘failed’ compared to if they had succeeded.

Ha, whom am I kidding! The story will never see the light of day.

Pigboat that TV show you talked about was “Dateline” with Jane Pauley and Stone Phillips. They attached model rocket motors to the bottom of the fuel tanks of the trucks they wrecking because the trucks never caught on fire (after destroying 10 trucks). The moral of that story was when you buy a new truck check and make sure there is no rocket motor attached to the fuel tank!

[gooneydog]

An innocent but careless pax can say "gun" or "bomb" at security and will get years in clink but these goons will have the police "thank them for their interest in our or security " and get released

[spork]

Most terrorists in fact have been from the Middle East in the last few years. fact.So we should assume that they always will be. :rolleyes:

[EFP058]

I can´t help but wonder what kind of threat a helicopter would pose. What are you gonna do with it? Crash it into a building and hope it´ll disintegrate à la 9/11? Would be so much easier to cause one heck of a lot more death and destruction using much simpler and less obvious (non-aviation) means.

Kinda reminds me of when this loon circled over Frankfurt in his ultralight, causing the entire city to come to a screeching halt, with Luftwaffe fighters circling him and whatnot. I seriously wonder what would have happened had he indeed crashed his plastic airplane into some building. Does anyone here think the building would really have suffered any damage besides maybe some broken windows?

But yeah, things that fly are obviously dangerous, and we all don´t know what we are talking about. Leave it to the journos to tell the public the truth. :yuk:

[Robert Vesco]

First I don't see what this news crew were doing wrong. It's good that there are prople out there testing the system. Fortunately on this occasion the system worked, but imagine if it didn't. I'd far rather have it fail with a harmless news crew than some real terrorists. At least then lessons can be learned before its too late! As 9-11 has shown, the security chain is only as strong as it´s weakest link, and let´s face it, every security system has it´s weak links. Exposing any possible weak links in a sensationalistic news show does absolutely nothing to combat terrorism. It only encourages more lunatics and fanatics to look even harder for their holy grail i.e another weak link in the security system. Furthermore it only increases the nationwide state of fear and paranoia that has swept across the USA after decades of incompetence and complacency regarding security.

[Hostie from Hell]

Agree with the last post.

They should have been thrown in jail for a few months for wasting police (read tax payers) time.
Tabloid "reporting" culture has to be stamped out.

[simon brown]

I dont have a problem with journos probing security weaknesses and identifying inadequacies were found.What I do have a problem with, is people being branded racists and xenophobics for targetting surprise surprise people of middle eastern ethnicicity.

To any of you of that persuasion out there, if one of your loved ones was raped by a white caucasian which was witnessed, a description given to the Police and the police asked your loved one to attend an identity parade consisting of Black Afro caribean males/ Chinese./Hispanics, you would want to know why wouldnt you?.

If the Policeman stated that we darent target members of the suspect's ethnic background as we would be branded rascists and Xenophobes you would be pretty upset wouldnt you....QED

As a tax payer I expect the Police to target the most likely groups involved in terrorist activities and not waste time pursuing a non threatening "quota" to keep the PC lettice eaters happy.

Are the security services constantly probing security.IE are MI5 probing security in the states and visa versa?

[yazman]

I don't suppose this little episode was prompted at all by the release of the FBI's latest piece of 'intelligence'; to wit"Al-Qaida has apparently considered the use of helicopters as an alternative to recruiting operatives for fixed-wing aircraft," said the bulletin, sent Friday night to police and other government officials nationwide and obtained Monday by The Associated Press.

The second bulletin, also sent Friday night, said that terrorists could use a variety of rental vehicles to conceal powerful bombs, including limousines that have a larger storage capacity than rental cars.And when did reporters become 'producers' ? When they started producing news instead or reporting it, I suppose :ugh:.

Furthermore, 'middle-eastern-descent' (pronounced as a single word) seems to mean anyone who is not obviously white or negro, viz: John Zito, an Italian from New York, and Tyrone Edwards, who police described as an Asian-Indian from Atlanta.

Just a phrase to get instant reaction/panic from the plods. Anybody know the applicable 10- code ? :suspect:

[MarkD]

The job of ensuring airports are secure is that of the FAA and TSA. These organisations should be and presumably do auditing to ensure that proper procedures are in place.

These journalists should be prosecuted and so should NBC. But they won't coz if they were the White House wouldn't be able to get them to withhold tape of Bush looking like he didn't have a clue as one film maker found out recently.

If NBC has evidence TSA and FAA are not properly auditing aviation facilities it should show it, not go after airports in a way that they are damned if they profile suspicious characters and behaviour and damned if they don't.

[Jerricho]

I've said it before. and I'll say it again. What would the concequences have been if any other journo's involved in this little escapade had been injured or killed if the situation had evolved into something that got beyond anybody's control (take the recent example of that Brit tool from the Sun that took a knife on a flight)? And I'm not just talking injury from the involvement of law enforcement.

I'm putting 10 bucks down now the media would worship them a martyrs.:yuk:

[Huck]

1. Dateline also sneaked into the cockpits of some Delta jets in Atlanta back in the mid-nineties. Got reporters hired on as contract cleaners without background checks. I actually was glad they did that - I still think the industry's weakest link is our hiring practices.

2. There are at least three professional pilots from major airlines that have lost their jobs over flip remarks made to screeners. We've all heard the "what are you worried about my hat for? I could crash the plane if I wanted to" story. That guy is now a greeter at WalMart or something. Hard to believe these guys are gonna skate away from this.

3. A New York Italian can't do ANYTHING anonymously south of about Virginia.

4. The very best part of the story is: the hero is named Arlene. All the money we spend, and we're saved by Arlene. The terrorist war will be won by the Arlenes and Bubbas of this world.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Maybe a little jail time would help the fervour of these "journalists"? I am hopeful (yeah, right) that this story will feature prominently in the National Press - unlikely somehow! Must all be graduates of the Mary Schiavo school of investigative money making - oops, sorry, journalism!


NBC staffers arrested in airport ploy

Caught with maps, lighter and box cutter

BY NICKLAUS LOVELADY

Belleville (Ill.) News Democrat


Two NBC News staffers were arrested Wednesday at St. Louis Downtown Airport when they attempted to demonstrate whether a terrorist could rent a helicopter.

The New York producer and cameraman portrayed themselves as tourists who wanted to rent a charter helicopter to visit sites such as the Arch, airport director Bob McDaniel said.

Arleane Thomas, vice president of Fostaire Helicopters at the airport, called the police after the two NBC staffers tried to rent a helicopter using driver's licenses from two different states, and then tried to pay cash for the sessions, which cost between $750-$875 per hour.

Sauget Police officers and FBI agents responded moments after Thomas made the call and the two NBC employees were taken into custody. Officers searched their belongings and discovered a box cutter, a butane lighter, maps and a white powder which turned out to be baby powder.

"They're trained so that when you see something you know who to call and (Thomas) was right on target," said Bill Switzer federal security director for the Department of Homeland Security at Lambert-St. Louis International Airport.

Switzer said his department has done extensive training for airport employees in the St. Louis region.

"Everything worked well. (Thomas) called the right people and they were able to respond in a timely manner. It was very, very effective," Switzer said.

Allison Gullust, a spokesman for NBC, said NBC wanted to see how employees at helicopter charter companies would respond to suspicious behavior.

The two NBC staffers were part of two teams performing tests on a helicopter charter companies in the St. Louis region and in New York.

"Helicopter security has been a focus of public attention this week, following the latest set of government warnings about potential terrorist targets," Gullust said. "In Illinois the employees did what they were trained to do."

St. Louis Downtown Airport is the region's second busiest general aviation terminal next Lambert Airport, with 175,000 takeoffs and landings each year.

McDaniel said he was elated that the airport personnel acted in such an effective and timely manner, but felt that NBC's actions were extreme.

"It's an absolute outrage that we have people in the media trying to create news instead of report it," McDaniel said.


More from the HAI.


The REST of the story...

The Helicopter Association International (HAI) congratulates member Fostaire Helicopters, whose vigilance helped foil an attempted security breach by a national media organization at their General Aviation (GA) facility at the St. Louis Downtown Airport. HAI thanks Fostaire and their employees, including Bob McDaniel, the Director at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, the FBI, Sauget Police Department, and Police Chief Pat Dulaney for their diligent efforts.

The event was reported by the department of Homeland Security and several other sources. The following synopsis, disseminated by the Transportation Security Policy Department, demonstrates how the Press attempted to charter a helicopter, and bring hidden, prohibited items onboard, so they could report on the ease of gaining access to aircraft to carry out terrorist plots.

The following occurred Wednesday, August 11 at the St. Louis Downtown Airport, a large GA facility. The affected facility, Fostaire reports:

Two Middle Eastern looking men attempted to penetrate our security. They telephoned one of my helicopter FBOs and asked about a charter flight. After discussion of price and directions to the business, they arrived an hour later. When the office agent asked how they were going to pay for the flight they produced cash. When asked for ID, they produced driver's licenses from two different states and they were driving a car licensed in a third state.

Things didn't smell right so the mechanic took them into the hangar to see the aircraft while the office person called the FBI and local police. The helicopter they were going to fly was blocked in by other aircraft so the mechanic was able to stall them by having to slowly shuffle the blocking planes. Meanwhile the two men got their backpacks and odd-shaped luggage out of their car. Soon the local police arrived and they were hauled off to jail in handcuffs.

After a little time behind bars, the FBI verified that the two men were employed by NBC New York and were on assignment to get a story of how easy it is to charter a helicopter for a terrorist attack. The men had stayed in a local hotel and purchased box cutters, leather-man knives, and other potential weapons at the local Wal-Mart using a credit card. The box cutters had been hidden in the lining at the bottom of the back- packs and the other weapons were hidden throughout their baggage. They had audio-taped the telephone conversation with Arlene and were going to use it as part of a national news story about how easy it is to get information and directions to the location of the helicopter and then hijack it to commit a terrorist attack.

Please note that this type of activity is a real possibility. HAI reminds its members to stay alert, remain vigilant, and contact the authorities if something does not seem correct.

[bellsux]

It will be interesting to see how the courts deal with this, like if the same two went into a bank with loaded shotguns under a similar assignment... but somehow I recon they are going to get off and NBC makes heaps of money out of the story and you get shafted by the journos because they wanted to make a story look bad in the first place and won't stop until they do.

[mattpilot]

They were let go after 4 hours in prison. No charges filed.

btw, there is a thread in the main R&N forum about this if ya want to read more opinions...

;)

[NickLappos]

I recall a TV personality who lied about his qualifications on a job application to gain access to a meat plant, published an "expose" about meat and then was sued by the supermarket for tresspass and other violations. The supermarket won in court, but on appeal the reporters were reduced to paying $1 (because the reports were true).

http://www.caller2.com/1999/october/21/today/national/1929.html

I guess these bozos in the helicopter case were released because they actually broke no laws. I hope that is true, anyway.

(edited after a web search found the real details about the case)

[B Sousa]

Nick Writes: "I guess these bozos in the helicopter case were released because they actually broke no laws. I hope that is true, anyway"

Probably true and got paid a good sum by the Media to boot. Would have been nicer to see a group of "Good Old Boy" Helicopter types give them a Blanket party......then call the Gendarme..........But guess who would go to the bucket.....
Im pretty certain that with conditions as they are today that these folks WILL be flagged in the massive Fed System so that whenever they pass through Customs/Immigration they will get a Friendly Greeting/Cavity Check. Once in that system you never come out.

[PANews]

There seem to be a strange number of messages here, and oddly it seems split on national grounds. It seems an important post if only on the number of replies in a matter of two days.

Overall, in principle, the Europeans see little harm in the journalists testing the system where the US based correspondents are against them to a man. My problem is of course that I am poacher turned gamekeeper - now classified as a ‘Journo’ – so how can I defend them at all?

Initially my first thoughts were why shouldn’t the papers try and test the system? Weren’t they doing that for Watergate?

Are not our television screens full of TV journalists [or presenters as they prefer to be called] testing out builders and financial advisers that are seriously damaging the finances of the weak and the stupid. And do we not feel good when they get their come-uppence? Perhaps it is a difference in the perception [and quality] of the journalists in the different countries?

One posting suggested that only Government Departments [‘the authorities’] should test the security systems and that will be good enough.

Will it?

Was it not those same departments who are alleged to have misinterpreted the events leading up to 9-11, which let the killers in and failed to screen them as they boarded? That at a time when most of the rest of the World was screening against a different kind of terror suspect they had lived with for 25 years. Remember Lockerbie? Much of Europe woke up around then and so far it seems to have worked.

Was it not associates of these same authoritative bodies who in serving their own ends decided that the roofs of the twin towers would be sealed because someone got annoyed that the NYPD helicopters had landed on them and sought to rescue people from them after the first attack a decade ago? How many might have lived if those doors were open on 9-11? If its only one thats enough to raise the question.

In general [and there are plenty of people who point the finger at a whole raft of illogical 'official failings' in these pages] those that have the task of running the anti- terror system are pen pushers with little real experience. Their lack of experience – beyond pushing a pen – can leave them dull. Additionally many of them are underpaid for the task they do and why should they think brightly beyond what they are paid to do?

So in those instance new heads [and I mean everyone] can bring new views on a subject that is important to all of us that fly [and even those that do not]. In a way Pprune is just a small part of that wider process.

That is not to defend what these journalists did. They went over the top on the deal and made it so obvious that it rang many, many bells. It would have been a disaster for the industry if the recipients of the ‘assault,’ Fostaire Helicopters, had missed the clues. If those posing as ‘Terror Suspects’ had been subtle, as we must expect the real thing will be Post 9-11… then they would have been doing a service if they got through. What they actually did was tantamount to treating Fostaire as idiots.

As far as I am aware most of the major expose material in the recent pat has come from whistle-blowers [who got sacked] and journalists [some of whom - including Andrew Gilligan, who was right - got sacked]. Is not this activity a check on lethargic government?

Having rechecked my sanity in even daring to post this.... I will now put on my gas suit and tin hat and retire to my Anderson shelter in the back yard!

[Flying Lawyer]

There seem to be a strange number of messages here, and oddly it seems split on national grounds.
Overall, in principle, the Europeans see little harm in the journalists testing the system where the US based correspondents are against them to a man.If there is such a national divide, then count me on the side of the 'US based correspondents'.

I don't believe for a moment that journalists who 'test security' have the slightest interest in improving security. They, and those who employ them, are interested only in trying to obtain a 'shock horror' story regardless of the consequences. If their concerns were sincere, all they need do is report their findings to the relevant authorities discreetly - not through widespread publicity their media organs.

Nor do I consider they perform any useful function, even as a by-product of their irresponsible activities. The frequent consequence of such irresponsible behaviour is a tightening of security which merely further inconveniences law-abiding people while doing nothing whatsoever to deter terrorists.
A and C summed up the problem perfectly in a discussion about one so-called 'security' rule in the R&N forum:
" ..... these stupid rules that we have had imposed on us are not for the protection of the passengers or the public on the ground, these rules are writen to protect the politicians from the media!"
Absolutely right. :ok:

Tudor Owen

[Gomer Pylot]

Just from reading the newspaper report, which may or may not be completely accurate, I can see no laws which were broken. It's not illegal to charter a helicopter, nor is it illegal to have any of the items mentioned, as long as it's not going through airline security, and baby powder is legal even there. I carry passengers every day with tools more dangerous than any of these, some of whom are named Bubba and some of whom are named Ahmad. It might be poor judgement, but if that were illegal God help us all.

Some oil companies are already doing things like this, although more subtly. They just send in a guy posing as a potential passenger, not on the passenger list, to see if they can get on the helicopter. So far so good, AFAIK.

[NickLappos]

PAnews,

The thing that gets me, and maybe the others who grouse about this, is that NBC was not after the truth, clearly. Had they been, the next day the TV news would have had a big story about, "Heroic, On the Spot Helicopter People are Safe and Secure!" Did they run that news segment? No, the operator told us about this thing, NBC was dead silent.

Why are we miffed? Because a couple of wise guy "gotcha journalists" (who usually hang around at the zoo looking for the new and stylish ways monkeys have found to play with themselves) were trying to sneak up on a few of our brethren, and ruin their reputations and careers. When these shining Pulitzers failed, they buried the story because their reputations would have been blackened.

It is the hypocracy we detest. News my butt, those "journalists" were after twisted sensationalism, and they know the camera does not look both ways.

[Heliport]

Remember this nonsense last year? :rolleyes:


Click here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=82950)

[PANews]

I will go with that Nick, but what is coming across is that some are not just hitting out at the actors in this smutty security test. They are hitting out root and branch at the checks that are democracy.

Yes NBC should have reported the failure - it would not have taken a brain surgeon to have turned it to NBCs favour. I like to think [hope!] that in most cases such as the BBC would have played it with a fairly straight bat .......

But, if they had properly reported what was after all a newsworthy story of an alert target, would they have been better thought of by those that are saying put them away at any price?

And this is with a background of a UK Sunday newspaper successfully attempting to avoid Olympic security. I bet you could walk into the offices of most 'investigative' newspapers any day of the week totally unchallenged and find them with egg on their faces.

But that is not the point. Do we or do we not challenge the security that is meant to save our lives?

'NO, not unless you are part of athe government machine,' is surely as bad as losing without style as NBC appear to have done.

That said alerting shortcomings quietly in a letter to the Chairman does not sell newspapers. They sell newspapers to make money you fly to attract the same commodity, security should be secure. As we know, in this instance, they were.

The only reason we know is that they were challenged - albeit badly.

[Heliport]

PANews

I assume you accept it's a matter of opinion whether these 'checks' on security are a good or bad thing.

I'm trying to follow your 'democracy' argument. Are you suggesting that, if people have a democratic right to do something, it's in some way unreasonable to criticise them if they exercise that right - regardless of the circumstances? :confused:

[PANews]

Without a doubt! But of course this is a thread where we will all agree to differ in one way or another. We each have different degrees of what is acceptable.

But of course those that seek to expose may have to pay a heavy price for that right to action!

[B Sousa]

Lets take the fact that what they did was legal, they just wanted to see who and when someone would blow the whistle. I will also tell you that here in the states it is legal to carry a gun in a holster exposed in lots of States, particularly here in Nevada. So if I were to have a holstered gun on and walked down the street...........All very legal...How long do you think it would take for the COPs to get a call......... You can bet I wouldnt make it a block or two...
Its a situation that is legal but raises flags.........

[Cyclic Hotline]

These "Journalists" are not testing democracy.

They are PAID by a COMMERCIAL broadcasting company to generate HEADLINES to attract CONSUMERS who will watch the show and be exposed to ADVERTISING that brings in the $$$$$ to keep them in BUSINESS!

This is not to say that there are not Journalists that perform a valuable contribution to society and do test the very basis of democracy in the dissemination of information and the exposure of truth. But this has to be balanced against the source and the motivation of the journalist.

But this is simply tabloid journalism at its most pathetic - simply out to make a buck.

[diethelm]

This is America, in America anything is possible.

The operator did a great job. Now the next step.

The two reporters from NBC attempted to fraudulently enter into a contract to rent the aircraft. The operator has clear monetary damages that can be calculated. As the operator, I would file a civil suit against NBC, the reporters as individuals, and of course name their spouses. It would cost NBC 100k to defend themselves. The reporters would need to disclose that they were defendents individually in a civil suit which would diminish their ability to borrow for the normal things in life. Jeez, I am getting excited just thinking about the depositions.

You may or may not win the trial but I would not want to be NBC in front of a jury of my "peers". Further, it is more likely that NBC and the insurance companies would settle as the cost of preparation and trial far exceeds the cost of settlement.

[SASless]

Diethelm and Nick deserve a "Hats Off!" for their posts....very good thinking about the situation. I bet if a couple of helicopter pilots posed as reporters....and attempted to sneak into a Press Conference or hung around in the cloak room or where ever these scoundrels congregate....and then took public , contents of conversations held there....why, Heavens on Earth...do you not wonder what a huge "Foul" would be called by our "journalist" friends.:mad:

I had a quick thought but put it aside...for a fleeting moment...I considered what Nick would look like posing as a Journalist...but then I remembered he was a TeeTotaller and thus he would really be a poseur.

[Flingwing207]

...and what gives a journalist the right to "test the system"? Is anybody allowed to "test the system" without reprecussions? Can I try to take my super-size toenail clippers on an airliner "just to see if they're checking"?

Being a journalist does not give you license to perform illegal acts in the name of "exposing the truth". Especially since NBC isn't interested in bettering our society. They're only interested in bettering their bottom line.

[PANews]

I take it Flingwing and Diethelm are unemployed?

They seem to be taking a great chunk out of these journalists for working!

Not defending how they worked, the style was wrong and I have already said that, but I assumed that most posters 'are PAID by a COMMERCIAL ***** company to generate PROFIT to attract CONSUMERS who will ........ bring in the $$$$$ to keep them in BUSINESS!'

We all do different jobs and in many cases would not do the job of many we know [for instance I do not fancy either skydiving or sewerage as jobs] but we each have 'slots' that suit us.

I thought the argument was about whether we all have a duty to assess the system. Test may be a little too imotive but certainly the TV company went that far in their belief.....

If you were sitting in an airport and you saw someone put what appeared to be a gun in their bag what would you do ?

Nothing?

At what point do you take no part in the game of security?

When I retired from being a policeman did I cease to care just because I have a new job with no direct security implications?

I have no direct answer that fits everyone, again its for the individual.

As for the toenail clippers etc... there is a big bin full of them at most airports... were they testing the system or did they just forget?

[alouette]

What if a suspected terrorist is not of Middle Eastern descend? I believe there are crazies running around, othern than d... dwellers, desiring to shake up the system. How easy would it be to identify those folks? It sounds absurd but I think every FBO, operator, charter company, etc would have to install a screening facility like those at major airports. Remember a while back when the helicopter got hijacked in France to pull out a prisoner. Who checked those folks. We have to be more careful/cautious regardless of race and color.:uhoh:

[Head Turner]

This is typically 'American' double standards

There was an attempted hijacking - fact
Arrests were made - fact
Because those arrested were journalists (sk) they were released - fact

Why in God's name weren't these terrorists taken to court and given a 40 year prison sentance. I'll tell you why - because they said they were 'Americans'.

Had this incident occurred by other press/media from another country George would have attacked that country to rid the world of those terrorists. Wouldn't he?

Terrorist attacks either for real or not should carry a 40 year sentance with no reprieve and no under the counter deals.

[RDRickster]

Reporters are supposed to REPORT news. I've seen camera crews hand peaceful folks in starving countries $100 to start a fire in the street and act rebellious for the cameras... it is sickening. TSA, FAA, and other authorities have the sole authority for validating the efficacy of security measures.

[SASless]

Head Turner....

We will accept your apology...it was Bill Clinton that went around ordering up bombings....Georgie sends in the troops by the hundreds of thousands...I like many of my countrymen would like to see a culling of the current crop of reporters....both American and British from the Bush Bashing Company.

[diethelm]

PANews:

How do you come to the conclusion that I am unemployed? What is your basis? What type of police officer were you that allowed you to jump to conclusions without fact or basis?

I am confused.

Diethelm

[Buitenzorg]

Nick, as usual, hits the bull’s-eye on his first shot.

Diethelm, your idea would be wonderful, except that organizations that make a buck by dragging others through the muck have lawyers on staff to deal with just such eventualities. I assume Fostaire is like many, a fairly small company, some dozen(s) employees, worth maybe a dozen million US, and not doing anything like a dot-com company on return on investment.. Against that are the resources of NBC, worth I don’t know how many billions, plus of course the other members of the muck-raking community who stand to lose just as much as NBC. The case, if one can be made, will be stalled by clever lawyer tactics for years, until Fostaire goes bankrupt over legal fees. Depressing, but a story that’s been told before, many times.

PANews, from your views I have to doubt that you’re part of, or know, the civilian helicopter industry. Most companies are quite small, and even if quite well-run, do not generate a lot of profit. One bad year can easily wipe them out. If these two had succeeded in their intent, they would have received a pat on the back from the producer, and their name on the closing credits. Yippee. For Fostaire, the consequences would have been an enormous amount of bad publicity, plus the FAA and TSA would have been on them like a cheap suit; they’d have to be seen to be doing something, it was on prime time after all. I think it’s better than even money Fostaire would have had to close up shop. Everyone out on the street, all the work you put into the company for naught, all for a TV show.

Well, most of us here either are, or have many friends who are, in just such circumstances. We know how close they, and with them, many others in similar companies, came to losing their livelihoods. And when you think “there but for the grace of God and the alertness of those folks at Fostaire go I”, it makes you mad.

To the good people at Fostaire: thank you for a HUGE service you did for our whole industry.

To the two journos: maybe time to take some Taekwondo lessons. If you ever run into a helicopter pilot or mechanic in a dark alley, you’re probably going to need some expensive dentistry.

[GLSNightPilot]

I still don't see how anyone can state that there was in fact an attempted hijacking. From what I read, there were no threats, just some legal items in luggage. Having a knife in ones pocket or backpack is not the same thing as attempting a hijacking. Those items are not prohibited on a charter aircraft, only on a scheduled passenger airliner.

I'm not happy about the attempt to get a sensational story, but get real, people. The law is still the law, and as far as I can see none were broken, whether the individuals were journalists or not, nor does it matter who they worked for, be it BBC, NBC, or the Fox Entertainment Channel. You shouldn't be allowed to put people in prison just because you don't like what they may have done. However, if our AG has his way, he will start doing just that as soon as he can.

[Bellthorpe]

Define "xenophobic"

Define "Middle Eastern appearance".


Most terrorists in fact have been from the Middle East in the last few years. fact.

Yep. That Timothy McVeigh guy, for example. Or Chizuo Matsumoto. Or the CIA's goons in South America. The list goes on. Middle Easterners all.

[OFBSLF]

That Timothy McVeigh guy, for example. Or Chizuo Matsumoto. Or the CIA's goons in South America. The list goes on. Middle Easterners all.Munich in '72. The Opec oil ministers in Vienna. TWA 847. TWA 840. Achille Lauro. Rome and Vienna Airport attacks. Beirut bombings. USS Cole. Embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. World Trade Center bombing. Sept. 11.

[Rich Lee]

The ehtics of "making news" as opposed to "reporting news" have been long discussed in the U.S.

When Gerry Rivers (Geraldo Rivera as he is now known) traveled with illegal aliens across the Texas border was caught by the U.S. Border Patrol, a call to Washington not only freed him, but the Border Patrol was instructed to allow him to continue. He reported later how easy it was to travel from El Paso to the Orange Groves in Arizona without ever mentioning that he was caught and briefly detained (he did break the law - but the laws are somewhat ill-defined where the Press is involved).

One does not have to attend terrorist school. One only has to watch the various reports on the news to learn how to breach security, what are the unprotected high value targets, or how to kill the greatest number of people.

[B Sousa]

Ah, the Press...........I have had some dealings with them in the past. Easy to see where the term "Out of Context: came about.
Anyway it seems everytime theres some kind of shootout in Bagdaddie, the press is right there with the Bad Guys. If the Military was really smart, they would send a few of their own to follow the press and take care of the situation. Might lose a few press members, but it would make things newsworthy.

[Gomer Pylot]

Rich, I wasn't aware that it was illegal for American citizens to cross the border. It's done daily by lots of them, going both ways, with never a word said.

Of course, if a teenaged US citizen goes out to tend his family's stock, on the US side, and happens to have a .22 rifle to take care of snakes or other varmints, he must be a terrorist and will be shot on sight. We're getting carried away with the panic, IMO, and need to step back and take another look at things.

[rotaryman]

Some People Just dont Read before posting do they ?

[Rich Lee]

Gomer Pylot Rich, I wasn't aware that it was illegal for American citizens to cross the border. It's done daily by lots of them, going both ways, with never a word said. I believe the laws he broke were less related to crossing the border himself than the fact he was "guiding" a group of people who were not U.S. citizens cross country, but, in response to your comment, most regular U.S. Citizens are requested to at least pause for the moment at approved border checkpoints, even if only just to wave and say hello to those fine immigration officers.

[helmet fire]

From GLSNight:
law is still the law, and as far as I can see none were broken

Here in Oz, a far more restrictive country generally, they would have broken several laws I would guess.
You cannot intentionally carry weapons on to an aircraft.
You cannot intentionally, or otherwise, put yourself in a situation that may be construed as a terrorist act, ie a bomb threat, etc. We have even had two guys arrested and charged at our airports because they joked with security that they might carry a bomb!!

Law or no Law: in a helicopter industry V media spat there is one consistent loser. Us.

:suspect: