Treason

[FEBA]

According to Sky news, British muslims are actively fighting coalition troops in Najaf and Basra. Is this high treason? Is the death penalty afforded to those found guilty?
FEBA :}

[pr00ne]

FEBA,


No


and


NO.

[stuk]

Whilst obviously bowing to the professional skills of prOOne, see his profile I did a law course in the 70s/80s and there were, I think, 5 cases where the death penalty could be awarded for treason. Two of them which spring to mind were (1) Arson in the Royal Dockyard and (2) Violating the sovereign's oldest daughter - unmarried. Could be the basis for another Blunkett initiative here as I don't think he has announced one for around 36 hours.

[brakedwell]

Stuk
Then that let's the traitors off the hook. The Royal Dockyards have been privatised and the eldest daughter, who loves dressing up in Navy fancy dress, is too long in the tooth. I suppose they could be sentenced to a course of councelling, a terrifying experience in itself.

[Scud-U-Like]

stuk

Setting light in HM's dockyards (and associated penalty) was repealed by the Crminal Damage Act 1973, though it took the Human Rights Act 1998 for high treason and piracy with violence to cease to be capital crimes. The HRA 1988 also removed the death penalty for five military wartime offences: Serious Misconduct in Action; Communicating with the Enemy; Aiding the Enemy or Furnishing Supplies; Obstructing Operations or Giving False Air Signals; Mutiny, Incitement to Mutiny or Failure to Suppress a Mutiny (they had a thing about mutiny).

[The Gorilla]

Quite right, this country no longer has the death penalty for any crimes of any description.

Although founded within the HRA's, capital punishment is contrary to membership of the European Union. If we bring it back Capital punishment we will have to leave the EU.

In addition it is forbidden for any member state to extradite a person to a country that will use the death penalty on that individual. That is why Abdul Hamsa or whatever his name is (Mr Hook) will never face justice in the USA!!

:ok:

[JessTheDog]

There was a brief flurry of interest in the newspapers about the fate of captured Iraqis handed over by UK forces to the administration, which has recently reintroduced capital punishment. Apparently, EU states are not supposed to do this, and the Danes in the sandy place are not handing over any prisoners they capture - if they capture any? But the government says that UK forces are not operating under European law. Watch for a legal challenge by somebody at some point!

[Training Risky]

Easy solution:

Pull out of the EU, ignore any Human Rights guff and bring back hanging!

(If Norway with its high standard of living can survive outside the EU, then I believe we can too)

[pr00ne]

Training Risky,

Yeah right, and devastate the UK economy inside five years!

My particular speciality in Law is Commercial, although now practising rather more broadly, I do retain certain "relationships."

These are mainly with the larger multi-nationals, the companies who have invested so much in the UK over the past 20 years and kept our manufacturing sector the size it is.
They are here to take advantage of our labour practices, our ethos and our language. They export 80 to 90% of what they produce and most of that goes to Europe, our largest single trading relationship.
If we were outside the EU these folk would scale down their operations and move elsewhere. They wouldn't go overnight, but they would go.
Even being outside the Euro Zone causes some of them significantly increased operating costs.

Norway has a trading relationship with the EU and has a very tiny population, they also pay very high rates of tax! You cannot compare the UK to Norway!

[FEBA]

Proone
Are you condoning British citizens fighting on behalf of organisations judged to be the enemy of British forces and killing British military personelle in the process?
I'm curious as to just how British these people consider themselves to be?

[pr00ne]

FEBA,

Some people choose to fight for what they believe in and what they believe to be right.

I was asked a queston about the law, I answered that question.

[Scud-U-Like]

It is misleading to portray the Human Rights Act as something that has been foisted upon us by the EU. Britain was one of the original signatories to the European Declaration on Human Rights (the basis for the HRA 1988) in 1950 and British lawyers drafted the wording. (Incidentally, Norway too was one of the original signatories).

[buoy15]

prOOne

I suspect you are probably a clever lawyer, an ethnic supporter or an ambulance chaser

If so. in a High Court case, the judge asks you,

"Mr prOOne, if a cat decides to have her kittens in the oven, would you call them cakes?"

What would be your response?

Love many, trust a few, always paddle your own canoe!

[steamchicken]

Exactly what is an "ethnic supporter"? A leopardskin print truss?

[Bullet Tooth Tony]

pr00ne

Our biggest trading block is indeed the EU, but our biggest single trading partner is the US. They're not in the EU or the single currency, but it doesn't seem to effect our ability to trade successfully with them.

Where would we be without the Common Agricultural Policy, the Fisheries Policy, the Working Time Directive, the European Constitution/Foreign Minister, Peter Mandleson for God's sake.:yuk:

Pull out of Iraq and bomb France, that's what I say. Oh yeah, and Germany!

[pr00ne]

buoy 15,

You suspect wrong. I am a Barrister. If you know the Law then you will know what that means.

If a Judge WERE to ask me such a Tom Fool question I would merely ask the relevance of my opinion of somethings name.

BTW buoy15,

If you put a Pizza in your oven, do YOU call it a cake?

[Smoketoomuch]

The most galling thing about this case is that the two 'UK citizens' filmed fighting in Najaf actually fled Iraq as children and sought sanctuary in the UK. Yet now they have returned there to fight the forces who deposed the regime they fled.
It is akin to a German Jew fleeing Germany in the 30s only to return in 1945 to fight the allies.

These people clearly regard British citizenship as no more than a flag of convenience to be used for its benefits but with no idea of its responsibilities. It would be nice to think that they will face a very long jail term if and when they return, followed by permanent expulsion from the country. But just like those caught in Afghanistan or the Afghan plane hijackers - how likely is that?

[Impiger]

OK back to the original question.

As the coalition forces in Iraq are there to provide security at the request of the Iraqi Interim Government (I know you can argue how true that is but I do believe it to be agreed international legal position) then anyone aprehended and found guilty of an offence against said forces would be subjected to the full force of the Iraqi legal system including the death penalty. If they turned out to be British (from whatever religious group or ethnic root) they would still face the legally handed down penalty and the FCO would take normal consular action to try and get the sentence reduced.

Of course if repatriated to UK following stalwart work by the FCO they might strugle to make a living in Aldershot, Colchester, Salisbury, Caterick ........... well anywhere really.

[Scud-U-Like]

Yeah, but let's try to keep a sense of proportion, shall we. We are talking about two errant people, not a bloody army.

[Triple Hooked]

I hope any UK citizens caught on the battlefield in the act of firing upon Allied troops will be swiftly rounded up.

We can then hand them over to the spams who might do us all a favour and send them to Cuba to have their teeth pulled out.

If we bring them back to the UK they will only milk the legal system with the help of shyster lawyers, a la the Afghan hijackers, Tony Martins' burglars, etc, etc...

[Boy_From_Brazil]

The ideal solution would be if they become martyrs for their cause. They would die happy and we would be helping them get what they desire.

BFB

[Flatus Veteranus]

I heard/read recently somewhere that the "72 virgins" promised to the "Martyrs" to look after their needs in paradise were a mis-translation from the orginal Sanskrit (or whatever). Modern scholarship reveals that they are not "virgins" but "Raisins"! The muhajadin must have a passion for fruitcake. We should continue to help them satisfy it.

Stephen Farrell of The Times broke the story of the two Brit traitors on the Times front page on Wednesday. They are aged 23 and 21 years and fighting for the Mahdi army against the Americans in Najaf. By fighting against our allies, I believe they are committing treason. If they were fighting against the Brits in the Basra area I believe there would be an open-and -shut case against them. The story was juxtaposed with that of 20 year-old Private O'Callaghan who became the 62nd British soldier killed in Iraq. Daniel McGrory wrote: "(O'Callaghan) grew up just a few miles away in South London from another young man of almost the same age who today carries a gun in Iraq and boasts of wanting to kill allied soldiers. Swaggering around Najaf with his uncle, this masked gunman swears allegiance to the same radical militia who killed Private O'Callaghan and wounded five of his comrades in an attack in Basra on Monday".

If captured it would be pointless to hand over these men to the Americans to interrogate at Guantanimo Bay. They have not committed Treason against the Americans and could reasonably claim protection as POWs under the Geneva Conventions. If they were tried for Treason in a British court (and the fact that this law has not been invoked since 1945 is irrelevant), they could at worst be sentenced to life imprisonment, which would impose a heavy burden on the taxpayers. Best if they were not taken prisoner .

If, as PrOOne seems to suggest, the European Declaration on Human Rights gives rights to individuals to exercise lethal force against the armed services of their own country because they do not agree with the policy of their country's elected government, then either the Act should be amended in the light of global terrorism, or we should abrogate the Declaration forthwith.

[pr00ne]

FlatusVeteranus,

ECHR certainly gives rights to the individual, murder however is murder, as is conspiracy to murder and attempted murder, no LAW gives any one person that right. Governments however, put themselves above the Law by granting that very right to members of it's armed forces.

As to these two individuals, if they are caught what would be done with them, they may well have dual nationality, would you treat them as Brits or Iraqi's? . Also, ask yourself this, how many members of the IRA and it's offshoots who were caught during the troubles were ever charged with Treason? They were British citizens, they took up armed conflict against the UK armed forces and the British state, they killed and maimed hundreds of members of the forces, yet why do you think they were NEVER charged with Treason?

BTW,

I do think that your handle is THE best on pprune Flatus!

[allan907]

With regards to pr00ne's other post .......I think that it is the first time EVER that I have seen the words "I am a Barrister" without the usual end of the sentence which reads "and this is going to cost you lots":E

[HAL Pilot]

Flatus,

You are making a common mistake...it's not 72 Virgins, it's 72 Virginians. Here's the real story:

After his death, Osama Bin Laden went to heaven. There he was greeted by George Washington, who proceeded to slap him across the face and yell at him, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached and punched Osama in the nose and shouted,"You wanted to end our liberties but you failed."

James Madison entered, kicked Osama in the groin and said," This is why I allowed our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson came in and proceeded to beat Osama many times with a long cane and said, "It was evil men like you that provided me the inspiration to pen the Declaration of Independence!"

These beatings and thrashings continued as John Rudolph, James Monroe and 66 other early Americans came in and unleashed their anger on the Muslim terrorist leader.

As Osama lay bleeding and writhing in unbearable pain an Angel appeared. Bin Laden wept in pain and said to the Angel, "This is not what you promised me"

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in heaven. What did you think I said?"

[ORAC]

"Treason doth never prosper; what's the reason? For if it prosper, none dare call it treason."
Sir John Harrington

[Argus]

Triple Hooked
they will only milk the legal system with the help of shyster lawyers

Not another anti lawyer diatribe. Round up the usual suspects!

[Triple Hooked]

Do I not speak the truth? If we didn't have lawyers.... there would be no need for any lawyers. Yours is a self serving, money draining profession.

[Argus]

Triple Hooked

You are, of course, entitled to your view, illogical though it is.

Quite coincidently, I'm the duty Legal Aid solicitor in our local Magistrates Court on Monday morning. As in the UK, the fees for such work are less than what it costs me to attend. I'll pass your views on to the persons in custody, who are frightened, confused and otherwise perplexed by being arrested and charged over the weekend.

[Biggus]

Argus

You forgot to mention that all these people are innocent of any wrongdoing, or that some of them may have almost as much knowledge of their rights as you do.......

Taking cover now ......

(Personally I have nothing against lawyers/barristers/solicitors etc,.... apart from the fact that one that lives near me is using the law as a weapon to make peoples lifes miserable over trivia, I don't trust the one that is running my country, and I trust even less the one in charge of our armed forces! Then again my own solicitor is a kindly gentlemen who has helped my family beyond the call of duty on several occasions! Lawyers are like everyone else in the world - EVEN PILOTS - there are nice ones and there are #@#*##*s!! It is the ratio of good to bad that often varys between different professions/trades/callings. Still, as you so rightly say Argus, my view may be illogical, but I am entitled to it!!)

[Argus]

Biggus

I didn't realise that Mr Hoon is some one who professes to be learned in the law.

As you said, there is a ratio of good to bad in any profession. Unfortunately, many of my professional colleagues feel moved to inflict themselves on long suffering electorates through some misapprehension of vision, conviction, energy and altruism. Please don't judge the rest of us by the crassness of some.

[Flatus Veteranus]

PrOOne

Do sovereign states really "grant the right" (to murder) to members of their armed forces? Or do they impose an obligation on them to obey lawful commands? I think language is very important.

I am puzzled why the Treason law was never invoked against the IRA and its various clones. Political and moral cowardice, I suspect. Or it may be due to the fact that HM forces in NI were acting in aid of the civil power to suppress civil disturbance, rather than to repel an external aggressor. In this context, I wonder when the old Riot Act was repealed. It was still on the statute book when I did officer training back in the early 50s I remember being lectured on it in Air Force Law lectures and there was a small pamphlet which suggested finding a bucket of paint and a brush and painting a line in front of a hostile crowd and then shouting (once a magistrate had been found to read the Act!) "anyone who crosses that line will be shot dead, etc etc". Shooting low to wound was discouraged as a sign of irresolution.

Personally I believe the Act should have been retained and used. It used to sicken me watching young thugs hurling Molotov Cocktails at our soldiers with seeming impunity. The appropriate response should have been high velocity rounds aimed to kill. Much of what has been called "peace-keeping" seemed to be merely making targets of our soldiers - difficult targets, maybe, but an essentially passive role suited more to riot police (eg the French CRS) than to soldiers.

My monica was a free translation done for me by a local friend, recently deceased unfortunately. After a double first in Greats he spent his working life in your profession. :sad:

[Pub User]

Argus

fees for such work are less than what it costs me to attend You must drive to the court in a pretty thirsty motor car, or do you pay your chauffeur too much?

who are frightened, confused and otherwise perplexed by being arrested and charged over the weekend Most of the poor bewildered folk in this position in the UK are arrogant, aggressive, obnoxious and (when a solicitor turns up) sanctimonious scum, who don't deserve to have a penny of taxpayer's money squandered in their direction.

[ZH875]

Pub User:

Most of the poor bewildered folk in this position in the UK are arrogant, aggressive, obnoxious and (when a solicitor turns up) sanctimonious scum, who don't deserve to have a penny of taxpayer's money squandered in their direction.Careful, you could be charged under the official secrets act for revealing this info. You would then need one of the underworked and overpaid self centred egotistical nerds to lighten your wallet and come up with a feeble but politically correct excuse to get you off.

[pr00ne]

Pub user,

You say;

“Most of the poor bewildered folk in this position in the UK are arrogant, aggressive, obnoxious and (when a solicitor turns up) sanctimonious scum, who don't deserve to have a penny of taxpayer's money squandered in their direction.”

May I ask how you come to such a conclusion?



ZH875,

Sure hope you never need a Lawyer!

[Argus]

Flatus Veteranus

The Riot Act,1714 was repealed by the Statute Law (Repeals) Act, 1973. However, the common law right and duty of justices to suppress a riot at any moment with whatever degree of force may be necessary was not affected at that time.

My recollection from the late 60s is that the British Army was deployed to Northern Ireland in aid of the civil power, primarily because the Royal Ulster Constabulary had lost the confidence of the populace, and was unable to maintain law and order. Again, if memory serves me correctly, the Army relied initially on a common law power to suppress riots. However, over the years, various pieces of legislation were enacted to codify the Army's powers of riot suppression, arrest, questioning of suspects and detention.

Interestingly, in Oz, post September 11, 'treason' has been recently redefined in Federal legislation to allow the offence to be made out when a person assists another country or organisation engaged in armed hostilities against the Australian Defence Force, such as in Iraq. This came too late to 'catch' two Australians who had been captured by the US in Afghanistan and interned in Guantanamo Bay.

Part 5.1—Treason Division 80—Treason 80.1 Treason
(1)
A person commits an offence, called treason, if the person:

(a) causes the death of the Sovereign, the heir apparent of the Sovereign, the consort of the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(b) causes harm to the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister resulting in the death of the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(c) causes harm to the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister, or imprisons or restrains the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or
(d) levies war, or does any act preparatory to levying war, against the Commonwealth; or
(e) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist, an enemy:
(i) at war with the Commonwealth, whether or not the existence of a state of war has been declared; and
(ii) specified by Proclamation made for the purpose of this paragraph to be an enemy at war with the Commonwealth; or
(f) engages in conduct that assists by any means whatever, with intent to assist:
(i) another country; or
(ii) an organisation;
that is engaged in armed hostilities against the Australian Defence Force; or
(g) instigates a person who is not an Australian citizen to make an armed invasion of the Commonwealth or a Territory of the Commonwealth; or
(h) forms an intention to do any act referred to in a preceding paragraph and manifests that intention by an overt act.

Penalty: Imprisonment for life.

[Flatus Veteranus]

Thank you Argus

Your Treason legislation seems to be yetanother thing that UK should import from the Atipodes.

[Pub User]

Pr00ne

Many moon ago I was one of the senseless souls who walk our streets of an evening, feebly attempting to protect life and property. I spent many a weekend in the city centre, fighting, being abused and assaulted and with the help of my colleagues dragging a token few of the worst individuals into the nick.

Thankfully, I saw the light (blue) and left to be cossetted by the military. Life was (very) cushy by comparison; I went to war twice, but nothing ever compared to those Friday nights.

[teeteringhead]

(c) causes harm to the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister, or imprisons or restrains the Sovereign, the Governor-General or the Prime Minister; or Interesting to see that the PM is included in Oz.

Cannot imagine much sympathy here for the concept that harming TB (or, in his absence, 2 Jags the Rescue Hero?) would be Treason????