Ban this hymn - or the Bishop!

[Tartan Giant]

I've placed this in the MIL section where perhaps, "Onward Christian Soldiers" might recognise this threat to their being by the Rt Rev Stephen Lowe wanting to ban, "I Vow to Thee, My Country”.

I'm sorry if the placement was incorrect.

Cheers

TG
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Ref : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/08/12/nbish12.xml


Ban this racist hymn, says bishop

I think they have the headline wrong; it should be, “Ban this bishop!”
Rt Rev Stephen Lowe purports to be, “proud to be English” I wonder why that is if he is not proud to sing about it? If “I Vow to Thee, My Country” is totally heretical and has racist overtones according to him, I wonder what his fuzzy brain thinks about, “Onward Christian Soldiers”?

Maybe he has more to say to Moses about this, “I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater NATION and mightier than they.” Numbers 14.12

Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, said the hymn's popularity was a symptom of a "dangerous" increase in English nationalism which had parallels with the rise of Nazism – here we go, so a healthy doze of being proud to be English/Scottish/Welsh/N.Irish is now thought to be cloned with Nazism, what absolute dross Bishop.

What a disgraceful stance this Bishop takes when he wants to denounce the choices our soldiers make on Remembrance Day when, more often than not, they rightly choose to sing, “I vow to thee, My Country”.

Every time this Bishop dons his clothes of office let him remember the soldiers who donned theirs and then died for their country, so this man of the cloth could have the freedom in this Christian country to utter his stupid thoughts on this matter of national pride.

Did the Bishop go mute at the wedding of the Princess of Wales, and at her funeral when it was sung? If so, he should have stepped outside and not have been part of a nations mourning; how hypocritical can a Bishop get? "I quoted it as one example of my concerns about growing nationalism" he said. So what does he think of the ever increasing spread of the Muslin faith in his Christian country?

I am utterly appalled and angry that this man dares to sully the brave British people, and especially our soldier heroes, by even suggesting the D-Day celebrations were an improper display of Nationalism. If it were not for Nationalism back then, we would all be speaking German and so would the whole of Europe. If you don’t like England Bishop Lowe, then pack your bags and Cross and leave these shores, and don’t dare preach what descent law-abiding people can sing or not sing.

Captain **** *******


PS: This is the same Bishop who "strongly defended" a curate who took flowers from a crematorium!

http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/news/s/30/30948_fury_over_curate_who_took_funeral_flowers.html

A GRIEVING family plan to take legal action against a curate who took flowers from a crematorium after the funeral of a man killed in a road accident.

Mourners saw the Rev Vivien Eccles put the lilies in her car and later found a condolence card discarded in a rubbish skip.

When they confronted Mrs Eccles she claimed she had permission to take the flowers to decorate her church, St Bride's in Old Trafford.

Police charged the curate with theft of lilies worth £70, but the case was dropped at Manchester Magistrates Court after Crown lawyers decided there was insufficient evidence.

Bishop of Hulme, The Rt Rev Stephen Lowe, today strongly defended Mrs Eccles. He said: ''We are glad this unfortunate misunderstanding has been cleared up once and for all.

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[TicketyBoo]

Ban the Bishop!

For a bishop he doesn't seem to have much of a theological bent. The whole point of the hymn comes in the second verse - that there is a better country beyond this world. This is what, when it can rise above its mundane concerns, the church is supposed to be about.

"Strange enlightenments are vouchsafed, to those who seek the higher places."

[Olly O'Leg]

Bless Him!!!!

Best not let him into the bar during Happy Hour then. I'm sure he'd be well impressed with some of the songs in there!!!!!

Eg,

I used to work in Chicago........

[Echo 5]

Didn't know all the words so checked with Jeeves who came up with this


I vow to thee, my country

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I vow to thee, my country, all earthly things above
entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love;
the love that asks no question, the love that stands the test,
that lays upon the altar the dearest and the best;
the love that never falters, the love that pays the price,
the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice.

And there's another country, I've heard of long ago
most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know;
we may not count her armies, we may not see her King;
her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering;
and soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase,
and her ways are ways of gentleness, and all her paths are peace.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Words: Cecil Spring-Rice, 1918
Music: Thaxted
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Can't see what the guys problem is.

PS: For anyone who may be interested Jeeves also provides the music.

[soddim]

It is particularly sad that a Bishop should decry pride in one's country especially when the second verse clearly puts the kingdom of heaven in its rightful relative place.

Hard to generate national pride these days but to knock what we have is ridiculous.

[Jackonicko]

Particularly as it's a pretty non-exclusive nationalism, with no hint of xenophobia about other nations, no jingoism, and nothing explicitely 'English' or British (unlike Jerusalem, for instance).

It could be sung just as easily by an American, a Frenchman or a Pakistani as by an Englishman. So how nationalistic is that?

And the first verse isn't about a country, it's about feeling love for, and being willing to make sacrifices for your society. Remarkably, it's not even very Christian (no mention of Jesus, or of a specifically Christian heaven, nor the Holy Trinity, etc.) so it could be the ultimate 'inclusive' hymn - acceptable to moderate British Moslems, to Jews and to Christians. It doesn't even specifically talk about a monotheistic god........

The more you look at the words, the more inclusive, PC and inoffensive it starts to look.

[Tartan Giant]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/


0825 Is the hymn, 'I Vow To Thee My Country', heretical? The Rt Reverend Stephen Lowe thinks it is.


Many good points raised chaps.

Cheers

TG

[reynoldsno1]

In a secular country, I don't see how "heresy" is even relevant. As a devout atheist, I find a hymn like "I Vow" really quite stirring in itself, - and hearing the drivel spewed forth by this theomoron merely confirms my beliefs (or non-beliefs, whichever way you want to look at it).

[FCK1]

This is an interesting question to ponder: does the offence taken in a different historical context make a song/hymn bad in itself, or is it the context in which it is (mis)used to be blamed?

the example that brings me to this question is the following: "Deutschland Deutschland ueber alles", the first verse of the german national anthem, was written as a hymn to the idea of a unified german nation, emerging in the 19th century from the rambles of minor principalities and centuries of war. yet the use of it by the nazi regime means that it is now illegal in germany to sing it, and internationally its use is seen as a clear sign of neo-nazism. but is it really a racist chant, or has it just been hijacked by racist f***ers?

I think there are some parallels to be drawn here, no?

[Anita Bush]

And this guy works for the church of ENGLAND

How racist is that!!!!!!!;)

[Reichman]

I wouldn't be averse to bashing the bishop.

[adr]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/
0825 Is the hymn, 'I Vow To Thee My Country', heretical? The Rt Reverend Stephen Lowe thinks it is.
Couldn't find it there (it'd scrolled off), but found it here (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/rams/vow.ram) (RealAudio format).

It just shows how dependent this hymn is on the interpretation of whoever's singing it, or listening to it. If, as the dear old Bish thinks, "The love that asks no questions" means people should sacrifice conscience to loyalty, and follow any order without thought or question -- Abu Ghraib, anyone? But if that line means we sacrifice self-interest, and don't ask questions like "What's in it for me?" -- different kettle of fish altogether.

I know of one serviceman who somewhat hesitantly (knowing it to be a Church of England hymn) asked the civvy RC priest conducting his wedding if he could have "I vow to thee my country." The Father gave permission without a moment's hesitation, and called it a good choice. He then used part of the sermon to point out the positive values conveyed by the hymn.

Wouldn't that be a better route for the troubled Bishop to take? Don't try to ban it, but instead instruct your staff to interpret it positively? If the left-footers can manage it, surely his own lot should be able to.

In a secular country, I don't see how "heresy" is even relevant.
If the Bishop thinks he's going to ban people from singing it on the terraces, or in the bar on Friday night, then, yes, fair point.

But if he's trying to ban it from being used in churches under his authority, then he's entitled to consider theological categories like heresy. A pluralist society must allow Anglicans to be guided by Anglican theology in church matters, Catholics by Catholic theology, Moslems by Islamic theology, and so on. Can't say, "I don't believe in this, so you can't use it as a basis for your decisions about your activities."

Though that does happen. I was at a table top exercise where the RC priest assigned to major incident response was trying to get over to the EPO that his flock would want priests at or near the front line, ministering the sacraments to the dying and injured, and that they'd be furious to find their relatives had suffered without the sacraments, or died without the last rites, because the priest was assigned to dispensing cups of tea and words of comfort in a warm safe relatives' centre. Not sure he succeeded. The emergency plan still seems to treat all clergy as Anglicans.

adr

[propwash866]

Far from banning it, I think we should make it our national anthem; nothing wrong with a bit of patriotism and spirit that won us two world wars! Never thought much of God save the Queen either :ok:

... On the other hand, I doubt it's 'cool' enough for Blair and his funky, new-age cronies!!!

[Impiger]

Saw this debate start in a Torygraph article - have been humming the tune ever since! Somehow I think the Bish has achieved the exactly opposite response to the one he was seeking.

The unofficial(?) English sporting anthem of Land of Hope and Glory is another pretty good jingoistic number but on balance if someone suggested replacing it with I Vow to Thee My Country I think like the man from del Monte I'd say .......... YES:ok:

[Argus]

In the immortal words of Sir Humphrey Appleby, "Long time, no See"!

[jayteeto]

Does this mean that the Hokey Cokey is now up for a ban in case we upset amputees?? :mad:

[adr]

Does this mean that the Hokey Cokey is now up for a ban in case we upset amputees?? I don't know what church you go to, but if that's a regular hymn, it's more fun than mine! :D

adr

[Flatus Veteranus]

I think its a bit late to co-opt "I vow to thee my country..." as an English anthem for sporting occasions. The tune (from Holst's Planet Suite, I believe) has been adopted with few modifications as the theme for the Rugby World Cup.

I don't know why the Bishop should get so wound up over a vow of allegiance to one's country. After all, the C of E seems pretty relaxed these days about vows of fidelity to one's spouse and vows of celibacy in all other sorts of sex!

He was on "Sunday" again this morning preaching more woolley, lefty-trendy liberalism. Methinks he is just too fond of his own voice. :yuk:

[Roobarb]

Indeed it is from Jupiter.

Are we watching New Labour and all the trendy liberals stealing our Country away from us?


http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roohorn.gif

[Echo 5]

Flatus,

Since you mention the Rugby World Cup.......... I don't think the Barmy Bishop will find anything Xenophobic or Jingoistic about this,............again courtesy of Jeeves:

" Shirley Bassey
World In Union

There's a dream
I feel so red(??), so real
All the world in union
The world as one
Gathering together
One mind, one heart
Every creed, every colour
Once joined, never apart
Searching for the best in me
I will find what I can be
If I win, lose or draw

It's a victory for all
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
We face high mountains
Must cross rough seas
We must take our place in history
And live with dignity
It's the world in union
The world as one
As we climb to reach our destiny
A new age has begun
Build a world
A world in union
A new age has begun."

Regards to all,

E5.:)