Flybe question

[November Whiskey]

Does Flybe have a base at London City? If so, do they operate the Dash 8 or BAE146 there?

Thanks,
NW

:ok:

[WHBM]

No base. The one remaining LCY Flybe route is 3 times a day from the Isle of Man, operated by a Belfast-based DH8-300 (their last one in the fleet, I believe).

[EGAC_Ramper]

I think they still have at least 2 Dh8-300's as G-JEDD was at Belfast last week and now we have G-JEDE.

Regards

[Oshkosh George]

G-info database shows THREE currently registered--G-JEDD/E/F.

OK,back on topic!

[MaxProp]

DD is out of service pending return to Bombardier, DE/DF continue on BHD and GCI. To be replaced by Q400 Jan/Apr.
400 has been trialed at LCY by Flybe, but line crew training not yet complete.

[er82]

MaxProp
Didn't think LCY on the 400 was a definite?! Can't see many crew being happy to take it in there....

[witchdoctor]

I'll do it!!!:D

Well, I would if they ever saw sense and offered me a job. ;)

[er82]

With the history of tail-strikes when the 400 has been taken into LCY in the past, few seem keen to do it. Especially as it would mean starting taking it in during the winter months when weather and cross-winds are at their worst.

[MaxProp]

The problem is that the classic Dash 8 could have been designed for LCY --it is so runway capable and so docile.

The Q400 willl not be as easy, but trials have indicated no specific problems

Some diversions may be expected during extreme crosswinds in icing conditions--but whats's new ?

[Alt.cap]

M/P

I'm assuming you've a reduced x-wind limit at LCY but whats the prob with the 400 in x-winds and icing here? (No agenda - not familiar with DeHavillands finest and just curious) Good luck anyway.

[A Nonny Mouse]

As far as I remember, Lufthansa flew the -400 in for quite a few months with no problems (apart from running one of the taxiway signs over on the way off the runway).

In fact one landing only touched down around 2/3 of the way down the runway (on an evil 20kt x-wind, gusty day) and still made it off the runway by 'B'.

The only real problem at City with the Q400 is the parking, as it requires push back onto stand!

[MaxProp]

AltCap---as I said no specific problems. But the ac is heavier and faster, and subjective impression makes it likely that it will be more difficult to keep the approach stable in poor conditions. there are manfacturer's recommendations as to how far the approach can be allowed to destabiise in terms of power and speed--and complying with these limits will probably produce some G/As in poor conditions.

[prob30]

It's got nothing to do with tail strikes. It is to do as mentioned, with the reduced cross wind limit, parking, the q400 being lively in the smallest of turbulence....the bonus however is if you get an engine failure after v1 with a strong northerly and flying towards canary wharf (as I did in the sim) you can outclimb the tower. Not so in the Classic Dash8. Also how does opperating a q400 in to LCY fit into a low cost model? Word from EXT is that they are trying to get VLM to take over the BHD-IOM-LCY route.

[fruitcake]

Hello,

to the point of this tipic,

VLM is flying the route jersey-london-city in coop with flybe, and with good loads i hear, and i don't think a london city base exists because of the high overnightfees.

regards

[er82]

Lots of valid points, but not all true.....
>>It's got nothing to do with tail strikes<< - yes it does! That's one of the main concerns of the crew who will have to take it in there! Trials were carried out at Woodford (I think) and out of 5 approaches, only 2 were deemed acceptable. And that was on a good day.


>>the classic Dash 8 could have been designed for LCY --it is so runway capable and so docile<<
Mostly true. The 200 series operated pretty well out of there. The 300, on the other hand suffers greatly with performance on a hot day with calm winds, and I can't count the number of times I've left with min fuel, and had to wait for a departure off 10 instead of 28 due to performance.

>>As far as I remember, Lufthansa flew the -400 in for quite a few months with no problems<<
If it wasn't Lufthansa, then it was someone else who suffered from a number of tailstrikes there.

[EGAC_Ramper]

I'd certainly welcome the VLM F50 to BHD...bit more variety.

[Alt.cap]

A N M - the last time I "arrived" at LCY a pair of lights some 100-200m from the threshold denoted the point after which, should a touchdown not have been achieved, a discontinued landing must be carried out. Ah, having just noticed your an ATC'er I'd say you probably know that! Won't the 400's requirement to be pushed back onto stand cause a few headaches?

M P - ta. Enjoy the 'City ;)

[prob30]

and the two days that the turboprop fleet manager took it there with the head of dash training, both who do not fly the line hardly ever....thought it was fine. If you follow sop's there is no chance of a tail strike. Have you done it in the sim ER82?

[A Nonny Mouse]

Alt Cap: As far as we have been briefed, the end of touch down lights only apply to jets (and even they regularly seem to overlook them). About 8 years ago, there was a rumour going around, spread by paranoid pilots that a/c were being filmed on landing, and that those touching down past the lights would be in trouble. We have never had so many go-arounds before or since!!! It turned out the film crew were from the FAA doing a study of carrier landings:rolleyes:

I worked throughout the Lufthansa period and was working the day that the Q400 was certified (chief pilot Wally Warner flying I believe) and cannot remember one single tail strike or even anything close to it - maybe I was just lucky on my shifts. I have also watched them land in the most horrific weather - cross wind from the south with gusts up to 40kts, and they seemed no worse than anything else. In fact they seemed more stable than some of the regulars such as the D328.

The big headache with the Q400 is parking, and if our peak morning hours filled up with them the current max runway utilisation of 32 per hour would dry up due to the taxiway being blocked.

prob30: I was always led to believe that the Wharf was of no real significance as it was 3 miles away, and by then you would hopefully be able to turn away. More worrying to pilots I have spoken to is the old Mill building about 0.5 miles in the climbout of 28, just slightly to the south!

In an ideal world all flights out of City would be operated by VLM and Scotair, and we would be happy as larry:ok:

[Dash-7 lover]

Talking of possible tail strikes. Go onto airliners.net and check out the main landing gear struts on the some of the earlier Dash-8-300s and you'll see that they're vertical. Then have a look on the newer srs 311's and compare. The landing gear struts have been 'tweaked' rearwards due to the high numbers of reported tail-strikes on earlier models, im sure the srs 400 will be fine although I wouldn't fly anywhere in it in windy conditions. I've never seen a prop bend and flex like that before!..........bit of useless info.......cheers

[er82]

Prob 30 - No, I've not done it in the sim. Presumably because I won't be going there again now they've stopped it from JER. I hope it does all work out fine, because it should be a good sight to watch it going in. But having spoken to numerous crew, not one seems happy to take the 400 into LCY. Especially because should it start going in in November, it wil be during bad weather periods, and they won't have had chance to get used to it in 'nice' weather.

[MaxProp]

point taken--but I was referring to the flying qualities, not the business effectiveness !

[WHBM]

I used to use the direct Flybe LCY-BHD service but it was unusual to get more than about a dozen fellow passengers, which was surprising but must make VLM have little interest.

The -400 operator a couple of years ago was Lufthansa commuter operator Augsburg Airways, to Munich. That also didn't seem to get good enough loads and has been replaced by a smaller operation with a Dornier.

Regarding the trials done at Woodford, does anyone use the facilities at Gloucestershire nowadays (runway markings of LCY dimensions and PAPIs set to the LCY angle), which I believed were specially provided for LCY training.

[MaxProp]

WHBM, yes the Flybe trials were done at GLO before LCY.
Onl;y problem is that 27 is a bit short for training, although 09 is fine.

[jarjam]

As a 400 F/O I have my reservations about flying the a/c into city.
Ignoring the business side of things and purely thinking about the flying I think it could be a bit iffy. I can see the frequency of go arounds being unacceptably high and also there's a possibility of tail strikes if the a/c should be allowed to get slow on short final coupled with an over zealous flare (maybe due to wind gradient effect).
The a/c Isn't that speed stable on the approach and the power levers are very sensitive in the low range which can cause the pilot grief when making power adjustments close to the ground.
Also the 400 needs to be landed with power on which can lead to a rather prolonged float if you misjudge the flare (not good on a short runway).
From a passenger comfort point of view its not great either, as any 400 pilot will tell you a smooth landing is a bit of a black art mainly due to the design of the gear, (a pogo stick with a wheel on one end is a good enough description). So if you combine short runway, stiff undercarriage, high rate of descent, pilot having a bad day, poor wether, it dosn't look too good to me.
I can see plenty of heavy landing checks being carried out if it goes ahead.

[ALLMCC]

Jar Jam

Does BHD present any particular problems for the Q400 in terms of limited runway length?

[Waveman]

While I can't say I'm the Q400's biggest fan I'd happily take it into LCY. From what I've seen in the sim and online it's a bit like the 200 Dash(!) in that it lands better from a steepish approach with a positive flare, especially compared with the power on floats that clatter in and use loads of runway.
Jam Jar - it's a myth the the 400 needs to be landed with power on - if you can't consistently get off 15 at BHX down the short runway (and with minimal use of the brakes) then I suggest you have a serious look at your flying technique.
Allmc - BHD is no problem at all - we've got performance data for runways half as long!

[jarjam]

BHD is no problem with performance as far as i'm aware,

Waveman: I dont think theres too much wrong with my technique, well nothing that experience wont cure anyway.
I can make the first exit off 15 if required and also the first exit when landing at BHD.
If its a myth that the 400 needs a power on landing then why do all the line trainers teach this?? I just fly the a/c how I was taught to, if thats not correct maybe you can suggest the correct method to use to the trainers.
I could imagine the look on some of the captains faces that I fly with if I started hoofing it into flight idle on short finals I think they would be less than impressed.:O

P.S Do you fly the Q400? the reason I ask is because some of your posts relate to the ATR.

Cheers.