Parachute flares when night flying

[Flying Lawyer]

From the 8 October 2004 helicopters with a maximum total weight authorised of 5700 kg or less, and a Group B C of A, will be exempt from the requirement to carry parachute flares at night provided:

(a) the flight is not for the purposes of public transport;

(b) the helicopter is equipped with either:
2 landing lights, one of which is adjustable in flight so as to illuminate the ground in front of, below and on either side of the helicopter;
or
2 landing lights, in addition to the helicopter standard equipment, which shall be adjusted so as to illuminate the ground in front of the helicopter;

(c) all landing lights are capable of being operated at the same time; and

(d) the helicopter is equipped with a landing light modification approved by the CAA.

Full document here: ANO 2000 Exemption (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS4_501.pdf)


Tudor Owen

[GLSNightPilot]

Please enlighten me as to why in the name of all that's holy a helicopter would carry parachute flares. Throwing a parachute flare out of a helicopter in flight isn't the smartest thing anyone could do, and using it to illuminate the landing area is just so stupid I can't even conceive of that being the reason, although all the language regarding landing lights seems to point in that general direction. What country's aviation authority is so ignorant that it would require this? :ooh: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Nigel Osborn]

I wasn't aware any CAA, FAA, CASA, etc had a requirement for flares. In the Navy in the 1960s our helicopter had flares as we did a lot of night work over the sea. The nite sun wasn't invented then and there is no comparison to the light output of the flares compared to the nite sun and landing lamps.
We had 2 flares fitted. When the engine/s went silent, if over 1000 ft, you fired the first one and orbited to select a suitable landing area, especially over land. You fired the second one at 1000 ft which stayed lit till you had landed. I suppose in practise I must have fired off at least 100 flares with numerous students and all were suitably impressed with the vision that suddenly became available.
Years later I had 2 fitted to a 350 but didn't have to use them. Obviously firing them low level over dry bush or a house could start a fire but we didn't use them low level as that defeated their purpose.:p

[paco]

They're better than nothing! I had to use them for real once, and I was glad to have them - just don't let them off too high or too low. I think the regs refer to Schermulys, not the sort you throw out of the window!

Phil

[headsethair]

"Parachute flares" referred to by FL - this is actually a fashion statement. Thank God we no longer have to wear them - mine used to get trapped in the door.

[SASless]

GLS....

This is a "British" thing here....I first encountered this concept back in the 70's when I learned to fly helocopters their way. It is not an altogether bad concept....just be very careful where you launch the things.

A former Bristow Training Captain, being very careful to comply with the very letter of the law, fired off some in demo....set fire to an Iranian airfield....and almost become a long term resident in a very secure place.

[B Sousa]

Defenitely something Archaic from over the pond. Can you imagine dropping one in the summer time in Northwestern U.S. or Southern California hills....
Do they really light torches in holders on the Helos when fliying at night so they can see where they are going??

[SASless]

Bert,

By "Torch" do you mean the British equivalent of the American "flashlight"? That being defined as the cylindrical shaped device that pilots use to store dead (flat) batteries.

Schmuley Flare...or something that sounds like that echoes in my alcohol ravaged brain....ah, yes....this time of year in the Western USA...you could really make yourself a hero if you popped a couple of them....but it would be a wonderful way of generating fire fighting dollars for the helicopter industry.

[B Sousa]

Good Point SASless, your right. No, I was refering to Torches as in those things that you see in a Harry Potter movie and will burn your hand if you touch them.
I had some gal at the Airline in the U.K. ask me if I was carrying a Catapult. I said are you joking and she said no it was one of the prohibited items. I was confused and asked her what was a Catapult as I imagined some big wooden thing used to sling buckets of Hot Oil over the walls of your big houses there in the U.K. She didnt know what one was either. Turns out We call them "Sling Shots" and no I didnt have one in my Carry-on............

[Tiger_mate]

It is or was a British thing and a lot better then an auto into the abyss. Several Britmil helicopters had them mounted on the airframe and electrically operated, especially single engined helicopters such as Whirlwind and Gazelle.

The new rule is a bit like stating that cars/autos no longer need to carry a starting handle. They have not needed them for years anyway, yet `rules` need updating.

[paco]

Actually, they were removed from the army gazelles because every time you operated the radio, they fired off (well-designed looms, those)! We had them installed on the LongRanger at Alton Towers, and a good thing, too. Perhaps I detect a sneering tone on this thread about them - they're not a quaint British idea, as they were invented in the US, and anything that saves my a$$ gets two thumbs up as far as I am concerned!

phil

[SASless]

No slur meant....just that in the USA...we have never had such a requirement whereas in the UK you have.

The "quaint" concept is interesting....they have always been viewed with some reservations by those I know that have flown with them. The concern over starting fires is well known and legitimate. The concerns of undemanded ignition is well known....the concern they might not work at all is also well founded.

Me Thinks he doth protest too much. Being a bit sensitive here are we?

[Wunper]

Externally mounted Schermuly flares were installed on RN Whirlwind Mk7 helicopters in winter 1957.

Intended as emergency ground illuminating equipment they were an initial response to a night flying requirement in an aircraft with a highly unreliable engine.

The installation was immediately and successfully adopted by the Joint Experimental Helicopter Unit (JEHU) and the RAF for anti terrorist operations in Cyprus using Sycamore helicopters.

Wunper

[Nigel Osborn]

As I said above, I have probably fired at least 100 of these flares. The requirement was to fire them above 1000 ft agl as by the time they reached the ground, they were burnt out. An auto from 1000 ft would probably take about 45 secs during which time the surface was well lit. A Nite Sun is not really a 'sun', more an oversized torch ( flashlight for Sasless !) and does not compare with a flare for surface lighting.
I have no doubt if fired too low, they could well cause a fire but being in the Navy, most of my flights were over water. A Very pistol is far more likely to cause a fire. Also I never had a flare malfunction.
How many of you have done a night auto onto the sea? I have done 1 in a 206 on floats with just the normal landing lights about 1/2 mile offshore with a full moon, no rad alt and I can assure you it was quite frightening.
I agree flares seem to be out of favour but that doesn't mean they weren't worth while.:eek:

[ShyTorque]

Anyone who has much experience of UK ops will surely know that it was a case of "horses for courses". Factors to consider:

a) The flares came down on a parachute and were supposed to burn out before touching the ground.

b) The ground in UK isn't often dry enough for a fire to be started by a flare anyway. For example, due to our glorious summer weather, from my garden I can see a new lake about 100 yards across and 3 feet deep that "arrived" last monday during a storm and hasn't gone away yet. I haven't been able to cut my lawns for 3 weeks because it's too wet.

Having said that, there is a true story of a certain RAF QHI that managed to burn down a big haystack during his night demo of an auto to RAF Ternhill a few years ago. ;)

A single engined helicopter with a night sun that stays lit following an engine failure? Surprised it can fly carrying a battery that big! :E

[Banjo]

Having flown with flares I can say I would rather have them than a landing light. You have more choice as to type of EOL at the bottom not being confined to a constant attitude landing. (if you flare with a light it tends to point up and you cant see the ground to level). You also if above 1000ft get more choice of landing site due to the improved lighting.

As to not using them due to the risk of a fire on the ground....I would rather be alive to watch the fire crew putting out a good blaze than sat inside the blazing remains of my crashed cab.

[David Earley]

For your fund of trivia ...Parachute flares were used in Vietnam regularly for night low level reconaissance in the Australian AO. The idea was the FW top cover aircraft started a stream of them from 1500 feet when you arrived at the area of interest; the helicopter descended to normal Tactical Low level and began the recce. The top cover was supposed to have Flare 3 igniting just as Flare 1 was burning out. That was the theory. What really gets your transition from VFR to IFR skills smartened up is when you get 2 duds in a row, which happened. Very exciting being in amongst trees at 60 knots in a 45 degree bank when someone flips the light switch OFF.

[MOSTAFA]

Always fitted at night on the good old Scout and bloody good they were too. Used them many times at night going into jungle clearings (casevac) never set fire to the trees once, but timing was pretty critical.

[Nealcon]

I've seen a parachute flare been shot accidently through a hangar door once... luckily the hangar was empty!