A dream too far

[redmania]

I feel it is time to finally lay a dream to its death. I have always dreamt of being an airline pilot but after years of trying, 8 to be precise, I feel I should wave good bye to the dream. I have come close on a few occasions but after failing to gather sufficient monies to self fund I can see no other way but to let go and get on with life.

Some of you might say that I am giving up too easily, but I do not think that I am. I have tried BA got to the last stage and then 911, CTC didn’t meet there standard apparently, Britannia didn’t do well on the Verbal Reasoning and finally Cabair got passed the first bit but got the rejection letter. What next? I see one only solution and that is to give up go home and dream of what might of been.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Redmania

I know exactly how you feel- it is intensely frustrating to be looking for an airline job- have you got your fATPL, or are you looking for ab-initio sponsorship?

CC

[redmania]

I am looking for ab-initio sponsorship.

[fhchiang]

why were u rejected by CABAIR?



well... u can always try other schools...

[redmania]

I was rejected by Cabair for the Fly be sponsorship.

"I did not show them what they were looking for on the day" or something along those lines.

I cant really try other schools I do not have enough money. My only hope is the lottery.

[Penworth]

The decision is your of course, but bear in mind that very very few people gain full sponsorships. The vast majority of people flying today have either self sponsored or found some alternative way in such as military flying. Like yourself, I tried all the sponsorships going, final board at BA, interview with British Midland (as they were then), Stage 3 at CTC McAlpine and final interview at Atlantic. I was turned down by them all, but knew that the only thing I wanted to do was fly so figured out a way to do that. I got a degree and a decent paid job, got a house thats increased in value, and as a result I'm in the position of being able to self-fund my training with no debt (and no contribution from my far from rich parents).

You say you don't have the money to be able to afford it. Have you thought about perhaps a career change to something that pays you decent money but would allow you to maybe do your training part time simultaneously? Sit down with a piece of paper and see if you can work out a way to fund it, or failing that, look at some way of borrowing the money or whatever. Sure its a risk having a big loan hanging over your head, but its up to you how much you want it

Having said that, if you feel its time to do something else then that's probably the best thing for you. Good luck with whatever you decide. PM me if you want to discuss it more.

PW

[sawotanao]

Hi redmania,
How far have you got with your training in 8 yrs? From my understanding the existing (limited)sponsorship schemes will require you to attend an 'Intergrated' course. Not too sure if you would be accepted if you already hold a ppl? Your also expected to meet a percentage of the training costs anyway, these can be in eccess of £20,000/30,000. Why not borrow this and go modular. Its taken me 7 yrs so far.....begged stole and borrowed.............ok not too much steeling!;)

[redmania]

I went to see HSBC who declined my application for a loan. I asked for about 30K, thing is I have nothing to put down for a loan so it would be 100% and banks are reluctant to lend that kind of money with no security. I only have a few hours as I was always advised not to learn too much, as sponsorship places prefer to train you there way.

Penworth-

What jobs pay a lot? I am intrigued I would change tomorrow if it meant earning enough to be able to save for flying. And as for the housing market, you caught it at a peak. I would need to buy now and wait at least 5-6 years for any substantial gain in value by which time I will be well into my 30s. I have a 2:1 in Engineering, big money seems to fly past engineers.

[Penworth]

Redmania, like you I have a 2.1 in engineering. I fully understand that its not the best paid job in the world. I only earn about £23k but even with a mortgage and high maintenance girlfriend I seem to be able to save about £4k per year - admittedly it would take a while to do all your training at that rate but by following the modular route it is possible to spread it over a few years and only do a section when you can afford it. I'm only going to quit my job when I get to the IR stage which I really want to do full time.

The kinds of work I was thinking of were trades such as plumbing, where apparently the pay is pretty good (not sure how much the taxman sees ;) ). Alternatively, with a degree in engineering, you should be able to apply for just about any graduate type job. A lot of people from my course went into consultancies such as Anderson Consulting starting on £30k+ (I wish!)

All I was trying to say really was that there are lots of ways to get the funding other than relying on sponsorships, and as sawotanao says, part sponsorships can ask for up to £30k, which is about the same as a self funded modular fATPL!

PW

[Dan 98]

Redmania,
Penworth is right, there are ways to earn more money, I too have been thinking about getting my ATPL for 4 years, I have just turned 30 and have finally decided to go for it and am currently doing my PPL and will go the Modular route. I'm guessing that you are still in your 20's so you have plenty of time. Why not look at maybe Engineering Sales where you can earn Commission etc... I'm in Sales and hate it but it's very flexible when it comes to having flying lessons during work time, something you cant do in an office job and if you apply yourself you can earn decent money. It is a shame you dont have a house as I'm selling ours ( I'm married with a 3 year old ) and taking some of the equity, but hey it's not impossible. You must have the aptitude for it to get to the last stage with BA!! Penworth also mentioned trades, plumbing etc... they are 3 year courses to get qualified so too long, however one trade you can learn quickly and earn decent money is plastering, there is a school in Salisbury Wiltshire [email protected] that do a 5 week course for £1,800, once you're qualified you can earn over £40k a year and probably work for yourself so you can fit your flying in. Ok it's not the most glamerous job in the world but hey it might just help you so that you can do what you love!
Good luck

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What are you laying to death? The fact that you apply to ab initio schemes as they are advertised?

Thats not really much to 'give up' is it? And if you've been at it for 8 years then surely soon you'll be too old for the age criteria anyway..

Have you actually done a PPL or anything along those lines?

At the moment things really are starting to pick up. I would advise anyone who has sunk any serious time or money into becoming a pilot to stick with it right now.

Perhaps though you do not fit into that category.

Full ab intio schemes really are a dream and as such I don't have a great deal of tears to shed for those who never get one. I didn't, most people didn't yet many of still made it without rich parents.

Cheers

WWW

[v12merlin]

Redmania, I think you'd probably find that most of us have stuggled to pay the bills at some point during training. I can certainly vouch for myself and may other pilots I know. Obviously some suffer more than others, but this is the way of the world. There's no magic solution, believe me I've looked.

You've got to get positive instead of dwelling on the past.

Chin up!

[ccatfanclub]

I Know this post won't be very PC but I don't care so i'm going to post it anyway.

You people make me sick.

Why do you think that the airline industry owes you a job?

You talk about giving up because you cant get a sponsorship. I didn't get sponsored but I'm now fully qualified and looking for my first job. I managed to get the money together and I don't have a rich family to pay for me before that questin gets asked.

Where there's a will there's a way as myself and many of my friends can tell you.

Have fun doing your 9-5 jobs, waisters!!!

[LGS6753]

Redmania et al -

There is a Government-sponsored scheme called Career Development Loans. These are designed to fund vocational training and living expenses. The loans are provided by commercial banks, but do not require repayment until the training is complete.
The interest rate is not excessive. From memory, participating banks are Royal Bank of Scotland, Barclays and Co-operative Bank.
Try www.lifelonglearning.co.uk

[onthebuses]

Oh please do give up!!!

I am 33, parents??.. Well they got many ££££££ in the bank, but they squeak very loudly when they walk if you know what I mean. I have not even got 5 mins in the book and I have been waiting for about oh....... 14ish years for the chance to live my dream.

To be honest I could do without you being next to me with your nice new fATPL when I am trying to get my first flying job with the same.... Actually, can everyone please have a holiday for about the next 4 or 5 years.. You will all find it much more pleasure sitting on a beach and it's way cheaper than flying anyway...

I have worked my a$$ off and only now can I start to even think of trying make my dream come true. Even so I'm sure many will agree there is still a long way ahead.

To be honest if you don't fancy the graft and all the other b*****ks, choose something nice an gentle with a fat pay day every month, wish I could do it really.. Co car, travel, weekends at home, life etc..

Depends how much you want it really..


OTB:ok:

[fescalised portion]

Well said OTB!

Its a tough industry to get into and everybody going into it knows that. If they don't have the hunger for it then they should do something different and stop wasting their and everybody else's time.

[great expectations]

Ok,
I was a cadet, but I've had my knocks along the way so I can give you a bit of advice. For a start, self sponsorship is risky. Yes, you can earn the money to pay for it yourself, but flight schools are not always kind to self funding students and it's a crap way to waste years of savings if you don't get the end result you need - ie - you need to leave the school with a good enough reference to get a job low hours. Thats fact. And it can't be taken for granted cos Ive had a lot of friends screwed by flying colleges.

Secondly, it is a dream job, but the reality of it is different and unless you really really know for certain that you want to fly, for example you have a ppl, then I wouldn't tell anyone to put all their eggs in this basket. The process of qualifying can be stressful and disillusioning when you are funding yourself and thats the part people don't plan for. :{

If you have to achieve this in order to be happy, then don't ever give up. Keep thinking of ways in. But coming from someone who did admittedly struggle a bit, it's not a nice path when things start going wrong for you and the dream soon vanishes. :yuk:

I feel for you as I believe in fighting for dreams, even the crazy crazy ones, but flight training is a heartache and if you have financial pressures too then that makes it worse. You have already failed sponsorships, which actually isn't necessarily a reflection on you, but that won't have helped your confidence.

Take heed.
GE xx

Just reread this thread and had an afterthought.

There\'s a lot of sour grapes from those who weren\'t sponsored and they take delight in telling us all how hard they have worked etc etc etc.

Well, the majority of my friends in flying were sponsored, so it does happen to a lot of people, and I\'ll have you all know that sponsorships don\'t just fall on the laps of the Gods. So I understand the disappointment in failing to get one, it would have broken my heart not to have got one, and it\'s a little harsh to start telling people that they should get off their arses and do it all themselves. Yes, some people do that and make it, but HELLO A LOT MORE DONT.

Redmania, stay positive but don\'t listen to those who say you don\'t deserve. Thats just resentful rubbish. I\'m in the job, I enjoy it, I count myself lucky, and because I know I was lucky I really want to encourage those who are still trying for it. Go for it. Good luck.

[Luke SkyToddler]

Sorry 'great expectations' but I disagree

I think the guy should go ahead and quit.

Because to be honest redmania my friend, if you're the kind of person that packs their bags and gives up on their great lifelong dream simply because you didn't win the great sponsorship lottery on the first attempt, then you are not going to be cutting much mustard on MY flight deck on that proverbial dark and stormy night when everything has failed and it all looks dark and dreadful and we are spearing towards that hill at 400 kts ... successful pilots don't EVER give up. They look and assess and make hard decisions and laterally think their way out of seemingly insurmountable problems.

Furthermore, if you also display the basic lack of grace to come and whinge on an internet bulletin board looking for sympathy, when the great majority of people here are all in the process of slaving their guts out / working all the hours that god sends in crap menial jobs / washing planes / working in ops / hanging round airports / saving a few quid a week towards their PPLs / remortgaging their houses / their mum & dad's houses / their mate's houses / their cars / anything else they've got that isn't nailed down ... all so they can get on with pursuing their own dreams ... then to be honest not only do you not deserve anyone's sympathy, but it will be a bloody travesty of justice if you ever DO get a farkin sponsorship and beat some of these other incredibly hard working people to that airline hot seat.

You want advice here it is: get yourself together, pull your finger out, go apply for a Mcdonald's assistant manager's position, move into a crap flat with some flying instructors and start saving £100 a week towards your PPL and your ATPL theory subjects. Do that for a year or two and then go back to your bank manager with the proof of your convictions. He'll pay for the rest, guarantee it :ok:

[great expectations]

Luke,

Takes a lot to get me worked up but that post just about managed it Luke. If you haven't got compassion and sympathy then I don't want guys like you on my flight deck. This is a human factors job, and as far as I'm concerned we all have our own paths in life. Don't know about your company, but most times I go to work we aren't screaming at 400kts towards hills, so that wasn't a rational point you made. You don't have to be superman to be good at this job - it's just a job and any one can be good at it. I'm nobody special, but I'm ok at what I do and I don't go ouit of my way to put people down or make judgements about who is or isn't worthy of sitting beside me. I'm an ordinary girl, nothing special about me, and if I can do it so can redmania.
This job attracts too many arrogant idiots who think they're special.

Redmania, they're not all like that. The successful guys are always encouraging, thats what CRM is all about.

And, Luke by the way, you wouldn't catch me dead working in McDonalds, passion for flying or no passion, you'd never see the day. So I wouldn't expect it of anyone else either. Get a grip. Being an airline pilot is not a test of what you have withstood or sacrificed in the past to get to where you are. It is not survival of the fittest. It's just luck of the draw and I know that it can be very hard to take when your lot doesn't come up. Ive been there. But I'm one of the chosen few and I'm grateful, even though I didn't wash planes or sell my house or work in fast food... I know I'm worthy of it because of who I am, not what Ive done. Redmania in himself/ or hereself may be far more deserving than the hardest working plane scrubber you can find. Ponder on.
xxxx:ok:

[Luke SkyToddler]

I 'was' trying to be motivational, g.e., in my own abrasive and obnoxious kind of way :E

You just can't get take it personally and get all heart broken over this whole sponsorship thing, for the simple reason that there are literally hundreds, and in some cases thousands, of incredibly highly suitable people applying for every available place. You may be Chuck Yeager himself but it's a chance in a million at the end of the day.

However, there are very few people who can't drag themselves up by their own bootstraps and get themselves into flying, the old fashioned work-for-peanuts, beg-plead-scrounge-for-flying-hours, kiss-ass and sell-your-soul-to-the-devil way. In fact it's still the only way in most countries, where the mere concept of an airline 'sponsoring' someone through their training is completely laughable.

If you wouldn't work in Mcdonalds in order to pursue your flying dream, well bully for you, I'm very glad that it all worked out for you without you having to get your lily white hands dirty. But if you do ever pitch up at my airline, I'd advise you not to go making grand statements like that, especially not to the handful of young guys and girls that work in our ops department loading freight at 5 am and doing flight plans and sweeping hangar floors and making coffee for the boss while they patiently knock out their ATPLs and hope that it all works out for them in a year or two. Because they would crawl across broken glass to be in your privileged position ...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

There is a huge difference between "I'm giving up applying for sponsorships" and "I'm giving up on my flying training".

For the later I would want to offer encouragement and consolation. For the former I kind of say - so what?

I understand that there are very poor people who would make good pilots and just can't raise the £50k needed. I also think such people are quite rare.

It really isn't very hard to make £500 a week these days. A friends father pays that a week to labourers in his painting business. Cash. Two arms, two legs and the ability to get out of bed at 8.00 reliably are the only real requirements.

In 100 weeks you'd have £50,000. Call it 200 weeks allowing for paying your Mum some keep and necessary living/beer costs.

4 years graft and you are good to go. Less if you are willing to do a bit of taxi work in the evenings/weekends...

Cheers

WWW

[mad_jock]

:) If you are screaming towards a hill at 400knots luke in your current machine you certainly have some problems.

WWW has hit the nail on the head. It is possible for anyone to get the cash together if they really want to. The jobs may be horrible, hard work ****ty hours and the rest.

Its best when you start to presume you won't get a sponsership and work away to pay for it yourself. Then if you are one of the very lucky ones and a sponsership does come up you have a nice deposit for a house.

MJ

[MJR]

Is this not a wind up?

:ok:

[Luke SkyToddler]

... and the funny thing is, WWW, that after you've worked at that job that pays £500 a week for a couple of years you then have to go and take a bloody great pay CUT when you get your first airline job :(

Come to think of it, if I had a job that allowed me to save £50,000 over two years then I'm damned if I'd quit it to go fly some poxy airliner ... I'd do it for 10 years 'til I had a half mill in the savings account, invest it all at 10% p.a., retire at the ripe old age of 39, p!ss off to Fiji and lie on a beach drinking pina coladas all day (periodically getting up off my sun lounger to go flying in my little microlight-on-floats that I bought with some of my pocket money).

And once in a while I'd think of all me old mates working like dogs, flogging those battered old airplanes through the British weather all day and night... and I'd laauuughhh :p :p

[Andy_R]

Less if you are willing to do a bit of taxi work in the evenings/weekends...

And then you'll spend 2 twelve hour shifts making £150 after expenses if you're lucky. Take it from someone who knows and stick with the manual labour. It pays far better for far less hours.

Other than that I'm with WWW et al on this one. If you haven't got it then go out and earn it. Age may not be on your side by the time you've done that, but if nothing else you'll have enough money to enjoy your PPL privileges and fly.

Bets of luck to all

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Or just buy a poxy terraced hovel somewhere and wait 2 years... oh sorry - thats been done already.

WWW

[Mooney12]

WWW. Jobs that pay £500 a week don't grow on trees. To get a job that pays that requires more than being able to get outta bed at 8.00am. A good degree in fact!

Plus everyone talks here about sponsorships being one in a million chance. Thats simply not true. CTC take 6 cadets a month, 72 a year. They plan to increase this further in years to come.

They base you against a standard, not how many people apply, so technically numbers dont count in their specific scheme. If you meet the standard you'll get it, no matter how many people apply.

Worth thinking about that isnt it?

[Andy_R]

Mooney12

There are loads of manual jobs around that will pay £500 week. Just need searching out, just like most things. Effort in - Results out.

[Slim20]

Don't need to be so hard on this guy. He's spent 8 years dreaming about getting a sponsorship and playing Microsoft Flight Simulator so he doesn't get into any bad habits before the gravy train stops at his front door, and now he's at the end of his tether, poor lamb.

GET A GRIP! If its that much of a dream, then you sure didn't chase it very far! My guess is you'da failed the psychometric tests anyway for being timid and crippled by fear of failure.

Show a little backbone and get your hands dirty, try actually risking something to achieve your dream..... when you know what the real cost of an airline pilot's seat is, then you can come back here moaning about giving up on your dream!

You'll exit these forums to the sound of a thousand pairs of hands rubbing with glee thinking "Great! another one down, more chance for me!" (Then those hands will go back to flipping burgers, probably!)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Mooney12 - sorry but they do. Best way to get one? Don't bother wasting 3 years and £12,000 at a mediocre University.

Cheers

WWW

[747 Downwind]

Great Expectations,

It is a GREAT shame that you don't have any higher EXPECTATIONS of yourself:

'it's just a job and any one can be good at it. I'm nobody special, but I'm ok at what I do...'

Anyone can do it.. can they.. I don't think so.. that's cos some people DON'T make the grade.
For sure, it doesn't make u, me, Sky Toddler or anyone else better than them but it still means that the person concerned shouldn't be sitting in Left/Right seat... the other one for the F/Es as well.. sorry lads!

You were sponsored, it appears and claim that most people are.. no they bloody are not. I would be flabbergasted if the ratio of sponsored to self-sponsored in the U.K was anywhere near 1:5.

I would love to hear what your airline would think about you saying it's JUST a job and anyone can be good at it... you're either sh1t hot at your job or disheartened by the high proportion of obnoxious characters on the flightdeck, me thinks the latter! Only kiding.

Redmania.. u want it, don't bloody give up. To go for the BE sponsorship your at least under 28, I've seen bods self-sponsored (integrated AND MODULAR) do it from 40-45.. never submit until the bitter twisted end:E

[onthebuses]

If anybody is in need of work that pays over £500 per week, look here (http://www.tfl.gov.uk/buses/jobs_tfl.shtml) .

Go to the lower part of the page and pick a company of your choice, clink the link, follow to Driver jobs/recruitment or whatever, apply, show up at interview with a pulse and a EU driving licence and your in!! No degree required, really they don't even care if you attended school!! They even pay all the training costs. (Takes aprox 2 weeks).

Many will also let you work part-time casual while you are learning to fly, heck stay full-time and work a 4-3 roster...

Downside, you will have to live in a grotty bedsit if you don't already live near London. (Some bus operators even provide shared accomadation).

This is just an example, there are many jobs just like this, so there is just no excuse it's all up to you..

Like I said before, just depends how bad you want it!

OTB :ok:

[mad_jock]

Your looking atleast 700 quid a week tramping in lorrys at the moment.

Its not fun but.....

I get payed 92 quid after tax for a 10 hour shift running a fridge over night for safeway when ever I want it. No crap just phone up and ask for a shift and I get one. The full time drivers get nearly 32k a year for a EU limited hours week. Degrees are for mugs I have always earned more using muscle or unqualified IT knowledge (which isn't an option these days) than my using my BEng.

Just try telling a school teacher that they could earn nearly twice as much driving a lorry than putting up with the crap that they have to day in day out.

The new transport regs are in soon and the exemption is now lost. There are something like 350,000 Class 1 license holders in the UK and only something like 150,000 in use. The average week is being cut down to 35 hours and currently there is already a shortage. Rates in London have been over 10 quid an hour for nearly 4 years.

mj

[tom24]

Degrees are for mugs I have always earned more using muscle or unqualified IT knowledge (which isn't an option these days) than my using my BEng

Love it!!

Agreed. It used to be a privilege, but nowadays it seems every Tom Dick and Harry are going to University, probably to have another few years of lazing about and delaying entering life in the real World. I've worked with 100's of accountants - 5% have a degree relevant to their profession - a lot don't have one at all!!

Going back to the subject, it seems a tough World in aviation. If you've been waiting 8 years for sponsorship rather than devising a plan of going about it the hard way, then I can only say you should forget the whole idea for your sake.

[Blackshift]

I pretty much agree with Luke SkyToddler, and would consider the general tone of his first post on this thread to be a reality check for anyone thinking of becoming a commercial pilot.

OK, great expectations, he does use a non-cuddly-reverse-psychology-cold-shower-tactic in an attempt to jolt redmania out of of his apparent resignation and self-pity, which in his reply to your howls of complaint he modestly admits to be an attempt to be "motivational" in his own "abrasive and obnoxious" way.

However reality itself can occasionally be "abrasive and obnoxious", and although there is a time and place for sympathy and counselling for every one of us, it is not in the cockpit when things are going badly wrong - a professional pilot needs to sort it out without recourse to such luxuries.

Be in no doubt that this requires above average levels of determination, as 747 Downwind eloquently bears witness.
Perhaps you are simply too modest to recognise this within yourself?

Cloud69 you are obviously unaware of how much can be earned as a licenced taxi driver in a city like Edinburgh or London. I drive a cab for money and work as a flying instructor for pleasure - although I enjoy working as a cabbie and get paid to instruct, those are the priorities which each occupation fulfills amply.

It helps to have a B plan (and even a C or D plan!) which needn't be to the exclusion of your A plan in any case - it might in fact help you acheive it. A few very practical suggestions have been posted above. On the other hand you might end up with an even more lucrative and rewarding career outside aviation which allows you to fly for fun.

Moreover, as mad_jock illustrates above, impressive job titles aren't everything.

[Mooney12]

Errr, £500 a week is about £30 000 a year after tax and NI contributions.

www - your living in a dreamworld. Getting a degree is not a waste of time. Everyone has one these days, so if you don't have one, your not doing yourself any favours.


£500 a week is an excellent wage which requires more than a 'pulse' to get.

Lets take www's advice, no go to uni and 'waste' 12k and get a 30k a year job by turning up on time with a pulse.

rubbish.

[High Wing Drifter]

WWW,

I would just like to join the back of the queue to bash you :)

Your view is common to successful people who have dragged themselves to their goals through adversity. The world appears very polarised between the haves (good honest folk and not shy of a days work) and the havenots (lazy good for nothings). An attitude not entirely dissimilar to ex-smokers and their views of smokers if I may say so.

[Penworth]

Mooney

Earning £500pw + requires more than a pulse, but it definitely doesn't need a uni degree, as several people on this thread have attested to.

The value of having a degree has decreased since I got mine a few years ago. Its still a "nice to have" thing on my CV, but if making a lot of cash to fund training is all you're interested in, its certainly not required.

btw I think you'll find that WWW does have a degree.

PW

[scroggs]

But I don't, and nor do most of my colleagues in Virgin - and we do OK for money compared to most! Degrees are certainly not necessary to obtain a decent living, and it's perfectly correct to say that you can earn the money you need if you want to, and you're physically fit enough.

Right now the building trade is having a real purple patch; there are nowhere near enough brickies, chippies and plumbers and so the wages are very good for skilled, reliable tradesmen. If you want to earn the money to pay for your training in reasonable time (and you don't have the entrepeneurial talent to make money by selling things), then get yourself a skill that's in high demand yet doesn't need loads of investment (either money or time).

Scroggs

[GJB]

i have had my heart set on beig as pilot for the last 15 years. Therey has not been one day go by when i haven't imagined/dreamed/wished for/hoped for landing the job or getting a lucky break.

I've had more than my fair share of rejections but I'm not giving up and woont give up.

If you want something badly enough, you'll get it.

[Goldfinger]

Redmania,

After 8 years of trying, how on earth can you now be wanting to give it all up ???? (Taking into consideration SARS, Eyeraq, Afghanistan, Foot and Mouth,911, Financial crises,oil prices.....)

I presume you have educational qualifications coming out of your ears ? You would not have got to a final interview with BA if not. If this is the case, that is 7-10 years worth of hard graft. Then another 7 years of busting a gut doing every job possible to earn a crust to go towards flying.

Have you a PPL ? Any flying hours to show some motivation and that you have some aptitude to flying ? There are some organisations that give flying out for FREE !!!! Have you researched these? Applied for one or two of these wonderful offers. Got off your ar@@ and perhaps become a member. (Don't pm me asking who they are, as have done previous internet lazy bods)

My wonderfully impressive job resume reads

Cockroach killer, Strawberry picker, Sausage maker, Chauff'r, Loo Cleaner, Sandwich maker, Vomit wiper.......oh and for the least paid jobs include Engineer and Finance guru.

Its also taken a few years, but i ain't never givin up on the money so far well spent.

Those that give up, simply make the queue smaller. C'est la vie. Actually, i should be giving more encouragement that you do, it would save all the money on the stamps/envelopes/cv bashing. If you have any mates who are in a similar position, please please explain your thoughts, so that they too might give up as well. Hopefully then, in a few years time, there will be such a big pilot shortage, that my wages will be astronomical.

PS
For a reality check, take a look at some of the hard graft that people in the African and Asian continents put up with to make minor miracles happen....we have it easy by comparison.

PPS
I'm now in need of a beer, anyone care to join me.

Goldfinger :ugh:

[onthebuses]

It's always the way.... Someone offers a beer and I gotta go back to work and drive a bus... Still the upside is, while your drinkin, my flying fund is growing... ;)

OTB:ok:

[v12merlin]

High Wing Drifter

Your view is common to people who have been born with a silver spoon jammed up their arse! If I may say so.

Touche,

Merlin.:eek:

[High Wing Drifter]

Your view is common to people who have been born with a silver spoon jammed up their arse! If I may say so.
:ouch:

[GuinnessQueen]

As I see it...

Degree vs No degree
Mega buck job vs the rest of us
integrated vs modular
Sponsored vs self sponsored.

None of that really matters, for each one of those variables there will be people who represent both sides (and who have a gained an fATPL and then a job). And for the most part, no matter which way you get the licence there will be ups and downs and lots of hard work.

Surely the point is that after trying for a sponsorship for 8 years, you could use your initiative and perhaps start to think and plan for self sponsoring.

Its just a matter of adapting to the circumstances with which you have been presented with, either take on the new challenge or give up?

Personally (and perhaps net very PC), if people give up, less competition for me at the job interview(s) next year!!

GQ

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

£500 a week in cash adds up to a lot more than £30k a year my friend. The painter works for cash and the customer is happy with the discount - the labourer works for cash and is happy. Everybodys happy - bar the taxman. Its the way of the world.

£500 a week in cash is available right here right now if you are willing to labour all day. Not a bad prospect if you are in your 20's. Beats not having money being half bored to death at University on a course that isn't quite what you had expected all the time wondering how and when you'll be able to get an ATPL and a jet job.

Honest, if I had a son and I couldn't persuade him not to become and airline pilots - and believe me I'd try - then my advice would be good set of A-levels to show you're not thick. Then a job as a plumbers/sparkies/brickies/painters/chippes mate, be keen, learn the trade as you go, live at home and save like a maniac. At 22 you'd have the £40k you need to move from your present PPL and ATPL distance groundschool to the full CPL/IR Frzn ATPL + MCC + FI rating and BE IN NO DEBT.

He'd have am instant fall back profession whilst job hunting, he'd have no debt, he'd still be very young and he would still be able to apply to nearly all sponsorship schemes as rarely if ever do they ask for a degree.

What's better:

A - 23yrs 225hrs CPL/IR Frzn ATPL MCC and FI rating, no debt and able to pick up £500 a week as and when there's no flying to be done, applying to all the airlines for jobs.

B - 23yrs 50hrs UAS time PPL pending, £23,000 in debt and applying for graduate jobs all over with some but not glittering success maybe securing a 'graduate job' flying a desk for £18,000. Applying to all the airlines for sponsorship if they are offering it.

But that would just be my 18yr old son and obviously everbodys different.

Cheers

WWW

[Andy_R]

Cloud69 you are obviously unaware of how much can be earned as a licenced taxi driver in a city like Edinburgh or London. I drive a cab for money and work as a flying instructor for pleasure - although I enjoy working as a cabbie and get paid to instruct, those are the priorities which each occupation fulfills amply

I am totally aware of how much London and the large cities like Edinburgh cabbies earn.

Yes, I have the option to move there, but I didn't intend on doing this as a career, the need to earn and family commitments has kept me here for the moment. Clearly I have chosen the wrong place to live as the South Coast is full of people with huge mortgages and small disposable incomes, whereas up North it does seem easier to earn more as the public have more to spend on luxuries such as taxi journeys. Plus our council (yes I own a LICENSED taxi company) set ludicrously low rates, far lower than London and Edinburgh. THIS ALSO APPLIES TO THE MAJORITY OF THE COUNTRY so my point that one would be better off with a manual job (or driving lorries as mad-jock refers to) stands.

Unless you live in a large city and want to go through all the knowledge tests then steer well clear of taxi driving and earn that money through other means.


There are now too many people with a university background IMHO, and with no real experience of life, and as a rule very little common sense and wherewithall to survive in todays competitive climate.
Additionally there is still too much emphasis on job title in the heirarchy of life. If you are prepared to go out and work it shouldn't mtter what you do. At the end of the day if it is providing a means to an end who gives a stuff??

And quite frankly those that don't believe what is available out there moneywise for doing relatively menial work have never had to try and find it. I shall now duck
:rolleyes:

WWW

Hear hear.

Too many people worried about what others will think. Too many too young to know better unfortunately.

[REvans]

Excellent post WWW, certainly made me think.

[Blackshift]

HWD...lol...you took that riposte from V12m on the chin with such grace, you're a proper gent - unless of course you happen to be a lady - so you are! Surely such a sense of fair play can only emanate from the playing fields of Eton, Harrow or suchlike. :p

cloud69, likewise I am aware of the regional variations in the cash to be made as a Taxi Driver - it's just that I felt you were initially over-generalising the case against Cab Driving from your own experience. Moreover, aside from the extremes, I'm sure there is a lot more middle ground in cities like Bristol and Leeds for example.

WWW, do you really think that an 18 year old son would stick to your masterplan?

From one point of view, youth is simply wasted on the feckless young - and from another, he has to make his own way and learn from his own mistakes. In any case, there is more to life than spending your youth remorselessly paving your way towards scrambling to the top of the heap.

Judging by the deafening silence from redmania, perhaps MJR was right...

Is this not a wind up?
otherwise:-

SHAPE UP MAN, YOUR A SLACKER...YOU WANNA BE A SLACKER FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE?

[High Wing Drifter]

Blackshift,

Paddington Comprehensive actually :O

[Mooney12]

Basically what your talking about is illegal labour with no prospects www

Sign me up right now! :rolleyes:

[REvans]

If you call a self sponsered ATPL with little or no debt, no prospects then yes! :rolleyes:

I dont think you would be the only person in the country labouring for cash in hand.

[tinsparrow]

Hang on a wee minute...

£500 pw is over 30,000 a year????

500 * 52 = 26000,

Secondly jobs for £500 pounds are week are certainly not that prolific. Not where I live anyway. London perhaps, but factor living costs etc, and you are left pretty much where you started.

As a graduate myself I do agree with many of the posts here about the worth of a degree. I personally enjoyed doing my degree and the experience it gave me I wouldnt change for the world, however It must be said that many graduates leave expecting the world to be their oyster and sadly this is no longer the case (it may have been 30 years ago). There are many disgruntled graduates who feel that the world owes them a living, (for a time I felt like this), however many 'graduate jobs' are little more than a title. One friend worked as a 'graduate sales consultant'. In truth he was a telesalesman, the only reason they wanted graduates was because they knew that a desire to earn big money (by former skint graduates) could promote the ruthlessness which they required on the telephone to make the sales, which is sad.
This said it is very hard for students, upon graduation, to point to a career and say 'i want to do that', those that do, find that they have to start at the bottom of a very unappealing ladder, which after working your arse off for 3 - 5 years is rather dissapointing.
It isnt easy finding a well paid job out there, some may have been lucky, or be slightly misguided in their views. Factor in the fact that paying for flying cant be achieved without large sums of money and it is easy to see why some could become despondant.


:suspect:

TS

[Andy_R]

I believe WWW meant £500 in your hand which is indeed worth well over £30k gross. To give an example, I pay my office manager £400 week but she only takes home £293 week. Sure you can appreciate the difference between net and gross without a more detailed example :D

[redmania]

I am currently undertaking a PPL, I have 8 hours so far. I will keep ticking away, who knows what might happen. I have also bought a home so hopefully that will go up in value over the next 3 years and I may have the equity to continue with my dream.

I feel sorry for some of you who have not made it the sponsored way, I know sponsored people who do not have the guts and courage that some of you have on here.

Regards.

[mad_jock]

I give you it may be a regional thing.

I remember the day when i got my National insurance number aged 15. Great I thought i can go and get work in the oil yards.

Signed up with a labour agency and over the summer hols. earned myself nearly 4 grand doing 6x14 shifts. Although I must admit that my mother was a bit upset when she found out that the work was pipe slinging, shot blasting and drifting. I should imagine its now banned someone that young having to dodge 10 tonnes of pipe rolling off a stack or running an industrial shot blaster. It still makes me shiver thinking about doing a over night shift in the snow up in altens.

In my experence the more dirty dangerous horrible hours the work is the better payed. For most of the group of students who used to work during the holidays they still don't make as much money as those holiday jobs. And student loans got us some rather nice returns on the stock market. My first job as a graduate engineer for 15k was a bloody shock.

Now the skills i reckon would keep you in good stead as a school leaver trying to decide how to get enough dosh to fly.

No degree

1. Plumber
2. Joiner
3. Roofer
4. Carpet Layer
5. HGV
6. LPC
7. Sparky
8. Bricky

Degree

1. Dentist
2. Optician
3. Pharmasist

All these jobs allow you to do homers or locum work when money is either tight or your unemployed and all are very well payed.

MJ

[Blackshift]

I know this is a bit taboo, but let's be honest here.

It's little more than the good old British class system which curtails flexibility in these matters for a lot of people.

The gnawing fear of being percieved as declasse.

Well, hell mend them!

[scroggs]

What a load of old tripe, Blackshift!

What puts people off doing manual jobs these days is that they are not brought up in the expectation of ever having to do physical labour to earn a living - and that's true whatever their 'class'.

When I was of late school and university age, it was the norm to earn your spending money working on building sites, in garages, picking up litter or whatever it took. I am from what you would no doubt regard as a privileged background (public school etc), yet I and most of my friends did all these things and more to get money to help us through our studies - student debt is not a new concept.

Just as well we did, as my airline pilot's pay is not enough for me to able to afford to get plumbers and builders in to maintain my house - I have to do it myself!

Scroggs

[Blackshift]

That's all very well scroggs, we're all aware of the "student job" scenario, but it's an entirely different matter in terms of doing such jobs in your mid to late twenties or thirties.

Moreover, we are not necessarily refering to manual labour here : HGV or cab driving involve about as much of that as being an airline pilot.

I know plenty of people who are underpaid and overworked in "managerial" jobs who nevertheless gasped in disbelief when I packed in that game to work as a cabbie, declaiming by way of barely concealed admonishment that they could never possibly consider giving up their job to do so something like that, even for double the money! The implication being that I had somehow dropped out/lost the plot/gone off the rails or whatever.

If my understanding of the social coditioning behind this state of affairs is simply "a load of old tripe", I would be gateful if you could explain it for me without reverting to that hoary old chestnut of "gosh, I had to wash dishes in the summer when I was a student!" or whatever.

This is an earnest and entirely relevant contribution to the subject matter of this thread, in that it would have been much more difficult for me to organise the time, money and mental energy to tackle FI, CPL or IR flight training if I hadn't done something like this.

I have no desire to criticise anyone for their background, just a deeply ingrained and almost subliminal self-delusory way of thinking that holds many back from a comprehensive "reality check" with regard to their own personal circumstances and opportunities.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I'm sorry but cab driving nor HGV driving does not entail quite as much as does being an airline pilot. Not denegrating anyone here but it just doesn't. No Scania or Nissan Bluebird that I know of has as many systems as a Boeing or Airbus nor are they operated by a crew in a lethal environment under the aegis of a raft of law and treaty.

If you crash your truck you make the local news on a slow day...

I actually think Blackshift that there is a change coming about in perception. Who wants a JustAnotherDegree and a McJob these days? Prestige and acceptance is turning towards being a tradesman.

Who do you have more respect and reverence for? Your bank manager or your plumber? For me it is the latter. I can find another bank tomorrow but not a good plumber.

It seems that it is quicker to earn and save for an ATPL by following the trade route than by following the graduate route. That is all some of us are saying.

Cheers

WWW

[scroggs]

Ok, Blackshift, I do understand what you're getting at, but I disagree that it's a class thing. It's far more of a perceived status thing - which has more to do with individuals' belief of what constitutes a suitable occupation for them individually than it does with any concept of what their particular strata of society should or should not do. To that extent, I think class is an outdated concept - but arrogance and misplaced self-worth will always be around!

But that's an argument for somewhere other than this topic or forum...

The fact is that if you wish to earn a reasonable living wage while studying for a self-sponsored ATPL, it is a relatively straightforward proposition to do so, so long as you are willing to take on the kinds of jobs we are suggesting. If social conditioning makes it impossible for any individual to do this, then more fool them. It is a means to an end, no more and no less.

Scroggs

[Blackshift]

AAAAARGH!...ATTACK OF THE KILLER MODERATORS...I'm sorry but cab driving nor HGV driving does not entail quite as much as does being an airline pilot....Duuh! :rolleyes:

Read my post again WWW and you will notice that I never for one moment suggested otherwise. Even flight instruction in a humble spam-can is quite a bit more complicated.

The point being made was simply the relatively similar amount of "physical labour" involved.

...other than that, I'm pretty much with you all the way here!


Whether it's called "class consciousness" or "status anxiety" is really neither here nor there scroggs - either way it amounts to the same old prejudice about "getting one's hands dirty".

[onthebuses]

Blackshift,
I dont think www and scroggs are ganging up but, you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs..

The only thing that is the same between Lorry drivers/Cab Drivers/Bus Drivers and Pilots is that they all seem to complain a lot.:D

I met quite a few pilots from all different backgrounds and airlines during my time driving buses at BA, and I don't think there were any two who had the same story to tell on how they became a pilot. They honestly came from all walks of life. True or not, www, scroggs??

Does it matter how you get there as long as you do.. Becoming a Pilot the self-funded way is a project not a career change. Raising the funds is only part of it. It's up to all of us wannabes to find our own way there, that's what the 'self' bit means.

PMA towards working is the only answer, whatever your background, maybe the driving/building/factory jobs do suck, I know mine does, but, if the office job pays 12k pa and you cant get flying, might be time to look where you can do better.

Everyone of us knows it's not on a plate even for the fortunate ones. I see the crap job pre and post ATPL as just part of the project. I think that I am lucky being able to drive both lorries and buses because I'll never be more than a few hours between unemployed and working. Also, look to the future. There you are, at the pointy end, doing the job of your dreams then bam, airline goes under, everyone's on the street to the Job Centre. With the 2-3 years LGV/PCV driving already under your belt, you'll be working within hours. It's a good safety net.

OTB:ok:

I'm just glad my 10 year old has no interest in being a Pilot, don't think I could take 2 goes round..

[Caracul]

feel it is time to finally lay a dream to its death. I have always dreamt of being an airline pilot but after years of trying, 8 to be precise, I feel I should wave good bye to the dream.

I am currently undertaking a PPL, I have 8 hours so far.


Riiight. 8 hours in eight years? It certainly does sound like a dream mate, and one that is going to stay that way. Theres no wonder that you haven't managed to get sponsorship, with such an obvious drive to reach your goal...

[Desk-pilot]

Another option which I think may be worth considering is to go into the city where the salaries quite frankly make a mockery of everything else! A young and hungry chap can within a couple of years could be earning £40-£50k for doing a corporate banking/shipping broking etc job. My Sister in Law went into finance with a third class Psychology degree. Ten years later aged 34 she earned 140k basic pay plus 140k bonus and that's by no means exceptional. Another friend of a friend makes £65 000 a month as a futures trader and basically could retire tomorrow aged 35 if he wanted to.

Sometimes I wonder whether I should have done it when I was 22 for a few years just to 'set myself up for life' Then at 30 you can decide what floats your boat.

Much as I despise the culture of greed in there and would no dounbt hate the environment there's something to be said for suffering it for a few years to never have the financial concerns the rest of us have.

(I ended up in airline Management which contrary to what you read on here isn't actually that well paid)

Desk-pilot

[Blackshift]

you do seem to have a bit of a class chip on the shoulder thing going on... Just an obs.. Ah yes... and here we have the good old commonal-garden slapdown for having the temerity to utter the dreaded "c" word...:ouch:

Like I said, I know it's a bit taboo - whether unfashionable, non-PC, or "off message" in Blairite parlance - to put it in this context.

But that doesn't alter the fact that there are those who would seem to consider it "beneath them" take the sort of practical advice offered by the majority of posters here.

Despite the many pros, including the gilt-edged "safety net" argument as proposed by both WWW and otb, weak excuses (if any!) are offered about being unwilling or unable to take up such opportunities, and it is my suspicion many are in a state of denial about their simple snobbery.

If that means I have a "chip on my shoulder" then so be it.

An ex g/f once told me that one of the things she liked about me ( it wasn't a long list :( ) was that I didn't get my hand's dirty for a living. I was pretty dissapointed that she could say such a thing - and not only the grounds of being condemned with faint praise - but it turned out that this had been drummed into her by her mother as being very important. Exactly the kind of thinking one all too often comes up against.

It seems that my crime has been to call a spade a shovel.

[HandspringGuy]

:uhoh:

I may be wrong, LGS6753, but i think the maximum these guys will lend you is £8k. I don't know what career that will develop but certainly not ours.

I went down the HSBC route. Initially they refused my application for a loan but I kept going back. I made a thorough business plan and spoke with the branch manager. Eventually they cracked...

I think half the test of being an airline pilot is seeing if you can make it through all the s:mad: t and get out the other side. It is a test of character and also it shows that you really do want it.

So if you are sure this is what you want to do (and it sounds like you are), don't give up and don't let them grind you down,

HG :ok:

[BoraBora007]

Simple fact is the more talent you have, the less :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: you will have to put up with to get into the RHS

[Blackshift]

Yeah right!

Not saying this does not apply to any extent, especially to those who occupy either extreme of the generally accepted standards of professional competence, but it is both a poor generalisation and a massive over-simplification - I personally know of more counter-examples to that than you could shake a stick at.

Being in the right place at the right time, or knowing the right people ( ie the old adage "who you know, not what you know") is at least as important.

...as many of those who have made it to the flying job of their dreams have the modesty to attest.