Best EMS helicopter?

[Pac Rotors]

Just spent the past week with Northwest MedStar in Spokane and have to say that the EC-135 is a great addition to the EMS ranks. The pilots seem to love it and one of the major advantages is that it can be completely shut down to blades stopped in less than one minute after landing.

According to Pratt & Whitney you only have to let the engines stabilise and then you can shut them down. Rotor brake can be applied as soon as it comes down to 50% and according to the mechanics the blades can be stopped in less than 30 seconds. That makes it much easier for crew to operate in and out of the back with blades stopped.

Anyone else out there with comments on this aircraft. I will be posting some pics of these aircraft as soon as I get home.

PR :cool:

[Thomas coupling]

We fly it mainly in the police role but are the third busiest police helo doing HEMS in the UK. Fantastic craft, carries 2 casualties with all the EMS equipment needed for monitoring the patient including 911 heart start should we need it in flight! Paramedics love it too for its flight characteristics. :)

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Thermal runaway.

[FLIR]

It HAS to be the MD902 EXPLORER
a/ PW 207E engines Very powerfull
b/ NOTAR Safety
c/ Large cabin area
d/ Up to date EFIS cockpit & Auto Pilot System
e/ High speed (not the highest, but quick!)
f/ Full SPIFR
g/ Smooth ride - good view

[RW-1]

Correct me if I am off, but isn't the MD902 fairly new? I was under the impression is hasn't made its niche in the market yet, but has a great chance of doing so for all reasons given.

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Marc

[Pac Rotors]

The 902 has been in EMS work for a while and is being used in Nevada and Idaho. Another couple of programs are looking at using them. Apparently the latest version has the newer and upgraded engines so it is the ideal machine.

[Pac Rotors]

Hey Pilot Eddy, you dont work for NPS do you

PR :cool:

[offshoreigor]

I'll stick with the venerable work horse of EMS, the S-76. Excellent dash speed (golden hour) low fuel burn rate, reliable and lots of room for two paramedics to work on two patients (on C30 Stretchers) in the back.

Cheers, OffshoreIgor :eek:

[DPW]

Is this just based on the merits of the machine, or do we take into account affordability? How many hospitals would have EMS contracts if all they had available to choose from were MD902's and S-76s? In the single engine category, I like the Bell 407. Lots of power, fast (when the FAA isn't trying to slow it down) and reliable maintenance.

[widgeon]

There are still quite a few BK117's in EMS use in the US. Any opinions on them ?

[offshoreigor]

DPW:

For starters, the 407 could not be certified in Canada for EMS use because of the SE restriction for Commercial Night/IFR. This is a standard requirement for EMS in CA. Secondly, Single Engine says it ALL. You wouldn't be able to find a Medic let alone any Ministry of Health that would go for a single engine machine for a dedicated EMS ship.

WIDGEON:

The BK (VOMIT COMET) 117 is not the most popular amongst back enders! The nickname speaks for itself. In fact CHC renamed it the BarBecue 117 after there's spontainiously combusted on shut down years ago!

Cheers, OffshoreIgor :eek:

[Thomas coupling]

EC 135. Has to be, one of the only 'light twins' that can carry TWO casualties for starters. Also has high skids, able to land anywhere, any terrain, unlike some competitors! Open plan cabin enhancing crew cooperation. fast powerful, and very cheap to run.

Vorsprung durch technique....



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Thermal runaway.

[Desert Rat]

Notar sucks big time for any kind of dust landing...

BK is a great EMS machine... EC145 looks pretty good too... 135 can be a bit small inside..

Fly EMS in the Middle East and get to do it in an AB139!!!! (in 2002)

[offshoreigor]

TC:

I agree that 135 is a good machine but don't under-estimate a wheel equipped A/C. I remember when the Sudbury base was transitioning from 212 to 76. The common belief was that they would not be able to land at some scene calls because of the wheels. They found out very quickly that the 76 is rarely snookered because of terrain!

Cheers, OffshoreIgor :eek:

[Whirlygirl]

Don't think the Bk117 that toasted it's self was CHC before chc's time..
Know of the incident.. happened on a log pad at the YKZ airport. If I recall it was a spark during refueling that set it off?? the a/c wasn't grounded correctly.

[Pac Rotors]

In Australia and New Zealand the primary aircraft used are Bell 412s, BK-117s and the AS-350. There are also small numbers of AS-365N/Bell 206 and 206Ls.

In addition the first Agusta Koala being used for EMS is going to be in Australia, operated by Careflight. Should be interesting to see how it goes.

PR :cool:

[widgeon]

Bk 117 was Toronto Helicopters (7050 ??) , there was a whole load of AD's after the accident about fuel venting and grounding . I never read the final TC report but they do not really publicize their reports.
Saw a great picture of them pulling a guy out of lake Ontario cant find it now.

[IHL]

The perfect ambulance aircraft would have to meet the following requirements:
Capable of landing on a hi-way or helipad;
All weather capability;Fast cruise speed;
long range capability; smooth, quiet, large cabin; and Preferably pressurized.
That leaves only the AB 609.

If not the 609 , the new AB139 sounds promissing; large cabin realatively fast for a helicopter (145?)or the EC 155. The 155 is also equipped for flight in icing and has a large cabin with a realatively fast cruise speed.

The SK76 would be great if it could handle ice. Rumor has it that there is a kit coming out for the C+ but I can't say for certain.

Best cheers
IHL

[polehog]

No, it was CHC by that time and it was not a refueling thing. The pilots had to jump out on shutdown. There is a thought that it could have been on fire in the air!!! I think it was a falt in the transfer tank??

[Larry]

The 609 isnt the best EMS machine.

1st : Its way to big to do on-scene work. The thing is huge , i couldnt believe
how large the mock-up was.It isnt going to fit into tight canyon roads where a large helo like a 412 or S-70 would have no problem. And how about hot day /Altitude performance , it can`t be that great with the high disc loading of the rotors.

2nd :its way to expensive , about 1 1/2 times more than a S-76 ,and the S-76 is in a league of its own price wise.

3rd :most medivacs are under 50 miles and
a normal helicopter is as fast point to point and less expensive overall. Over
one hundred miles it might be OK for hospital transfers....but its to expensive
for a hospital to buy , or two or three hospitals to buy....big money.

4th: It needs to be sorted out before id want to fly in it. Guaranteed they will crash some early-on

Just my humble opinion. Please state your opinion of the 609.....im very interested in learning what others think about this technology.

[This message has been edited by Larry (edited 05 March 2001).]

[IHL]

To Larry:
I guess it would depend on your geographical location. I fly EMS in the "Great White North" and our average sector length is 120 nm, with some sectors in excess of 200. Icing is also a real problem from November to April , having an aircraft that could handle ice and get out of the weather would be a big plus. For IFR being able to pick alternate airports that aren't being influnced by local weather systems would also be a plus.

IHL


[This message has been edited by IHL (edited 01 March 2001).]

[Special 25]

Never flown the S-76, but landing in public areas with such a low rotor disc just sounds like a bad idea !

Original Dauphin was the right design, high rotor disc, fenestron tail but a bit noisy and gutless - I'd go for the EC155

[Pac Rotors]

I have been flying recently with both EC135 and Bell 430 operations and both of these have their good and bad points. Havent done any stories on S-76 programs yet so will have to do something soon.

[Larry]

IHL
Sounds like the ranges your flying the 609
might be the ticket.120-200 mile flights
start moving into the tiltrotors best capabilities. Plus you pointed out the anti-icing capability

Is the size of the Aircraft a concern ?
Its much larger in person than in pictures.
And for its size the cabin isnt very big.

And then there procurement cost.The 609s $12-$13 million is big money. The S-70 Firehawks LA.Fire Dept are getting cost $13 million each and took 7 years fund, and thats only for two aircraft ($26 million)
while theres a need for four.

Lastly ,its going to take 3-5 years before people get confidence in the civil tilt-rotor.

[Thomas coupling]

Sounds like one has to qualify the target area:
There is SWOOP and SCOOP where I suspect 80% of EMS is required, where you launch at short notice and land on the back of a postage stamp sized intersection and deliver to the nearest hospital.
Then there is AIR AMBULANCE where the job is pre planned including persons / equipment / organs etc from one hospital to another, often involving long ranges. Finally and perhaps a little outside this remit: Civilian SAR where the machine is very specialised (winch /abseilling/floats etc).

Because we are talking a huge range of costings here from: $500,000 for a cheap second hand 206 to $30,000,000 for the Japanese EH 101 police/HEMS helo!!! Who is paying??
Does the end justify the means....now thats a can of worms.



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Thermal runaway.

[IHL]

TO: Special 25

With the low blades on the S76 we usually have the non-flying pilot get out to secure the area ASAP after landing , if that's not possible one of our medics will secure the area untill we can shut down.

IHL

[Larry]

Are those civil EH-101s really $30 milllion ?

Wow...thats REALLY big money.

I wonder how the Japanese Tokyo Polices
EH-101s is working out ? They took a big chance on that deal !!

[Larry]

IHL

May i ask if you fly BANDAGE ONE ?

Also ,the S-76 isnt capable of any icing ?

Thanks

[Thomas coupling]

How does the EC155 comply with icing requirements? I thought there were NO civvy helos capable of flying in icing?

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Thermal runaway.

[Earpiece]

TC
I've heard that the Super Puma/Tiger/whatever the derivation were capable of flying in icing conditions as well as being civil helicopters.

"keeping an ear to the ground"

[Cyclic Hotline]

The Puma can be modified for blade anti-icing, as well as the Super Puma. The S92 will have blade anti-ice capability and it is intended to offer the same capability as a retrofit to the S76 and as an option on new S76's.

Of course, the Sikorsky S70 (Blackhawk), is not an option for any commercial operator as it is only certified in Restricted Category.

It is interesting to note, that the sole example of a commercial EH-101 that has been delivered, went to a Government agency. That makes all the sales of the EH-101 to Government agencies, which are without exception, noted for their ability to operate cost-effective programmes, representing great value to the taxpaying general public.

So in answer to Larry's question regarding value for money on the EH-101, the answer from the commercial sector, based upon sales, appears to be no.

[IHL]

Larry:
I do fly one of the "Bandage" aircraft but not bandage 1. As for ice , I have only heard rumors of new 76s being equiped for flight in known ice as mentioned earlier by cyclic hotline.

IHL

[Larry]

IHL:
Thanks. Ive only heard of BANDAGE 1 ,
There are other BANDAGE aircraft ? I remember reading an article from the early 80s when they flew a Bell 212.
They are also one of the earliest operators of the S-76 in EMS ops....correct ?

As far as icing , the Super Puma has some sort of ability and the Russions have helicopters that routinely fly in icing conditions. There is an article in Professional Pilot about icing and the S-92.
Ill read it and see what it says.

[This message has been edited by Larry (edited 04 March 2001).]

[IHL]

Larry:
There are actually 5 bandage bases in Ontario
and 7 EMS 76 bases in total:Bandage signifies critical care . Other bases are
Advanced Life support or Basic .
Bandage 1 : Toronto S76
Bandage 2 : Sudbury S76
Bandage 3 : Thunder Bay S76
Bandage 4 : Timmins King Air 200
Bandage 5 : Sioux Lookout King Air 200
Additional bases : Ottawa S76, London S76,
Moosonee S76, Kenora S76.

Plus numerous other fixed wing operators in various aircraft from Pilatus PC12s, MU 2s
King Airs, and even a dash 7.

IHL

[StevieTerrier]

Go to be the Bell 222. If you're going to hospital, why not go with a bit of STYLE?

[Pac Rotors]

StevieTerrier

I recently flew with Air Med in Salt Lake City, will raise you one Bell 430 and a 407 which is what they have there. 430 is nice ship.

PR

[Larry]

IHL
Thanks for the info about BANGDAGE.
I had no,idea they operated out of so many places and had so many Aircraft.
Is it a Government program ?

And (if you know) why did they choose the S-76 as its helicopter....speed ?

Have they looked at the 609 yet ?

Thanks

[Pac Rotors]

Are the Bandage aircraft the S-76s in the old Okanagan orange paint scheme.

[Lu Zuckerman]

If you go by the total accomplishments and the total number lives saved it would have to be the Bell H-13 and right behind that it would be the Bell UH-1.

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The Cat

[Larry]

Lu

Although the Huey might be the winner ,i would bet the Sikorsky H-3 series have saved the MOST people of any helicopter made.

[IHL]

To Larry:
The EMS program in Ontario is a Provincial Government program. The Helicopter service is Contracted out to Canadian Helicopters. The Banadage program(Helicopter) is up for renewal, the successful bider has not yet been announced. The contract requires a helicopter such as the S76, Bell 412, Dauphin.
The S76 is used because of , speed, cabin size for 2 paramedics + 2 patients, IFR capability, range, and urbanly friendly.
The 212 is un-acceptable because it is slow and noisy. With regards to the 609 I think it will be 8 years before we see it flying EMS. I think CHC has 10 on order and I think they will try and flog them offshore.

To PAC: They are in the Okanagan Orange colour with Blue and white trim, White orange and Blue happens to be the colours of the Ambulance services in Ontario.

IHL

[This message has been edited by IHL (edited 08 March 2001).]

[Pac Rotors]

IHL

Drop me your postal address and will send you a copy of our latest issue for your perusal.

PR :cool:

[almost canadian]

IHL, isn't there a base in Halifax where you guys operate s76's as well?

[IHL]

Almost Canadian hey.
That is correct CHL (Canadian Helicopters Ltd)does operate a S76 in Halifax , doing EMS (EHS) work for the Nova Scotia, Government. Canadian Helicopters International operates a 76 and a couple of 61s on Offshore operations.

IHL

[DPW]

IHL,
Did the Bandage program recently get rid of one of their S-76's? I saw an orange Sikorsky in a local shop being re-painted for a Childrens Hospital out in California. That orange paint scheme was hideous.

[IHL]

DPW:

Canadian Helicopters Limited has not sold any of their S76s. I don't know about Canadian Helicopters International, but I doubt it.Older S76 aircraft are at a premium now and are hard to find. CHI converts alot of their older 76s to A++ models.

Canadian's colours are Blue, Red , and White.
The orange paint scheme is now Ontario Ambulance colours.

IHL

[Hoverboy]

I asked some flying medical personnel their opinion on this, their various experiences covered 206, 206L, 222, 212, BK117, Dauphin and SK76 as well as untold fixed wing, but kind of hard to do an onscene call with a Lear, right?
The overwhelming preference was for exactly what the Ontario Ministry of Health has on contract. The S-76.
The room inside, the ride, the space required to land and the noise associated.
The Dauphin, 222 and BK are just smaller enough than the 76 to be too small. The 212 is a great workhorse, too slow, too rough and really hard on the neighbours. I've watched lots of medics score an I.V. inflight on the first try in a 76, it can be done in a 212 but not with such consistent success.
That's what some medics say, anyway...
Some basic things I believe a dedicated medevac machine should have is two engines and night/IFR qualified. After that, you have to have something that works well for the patients, because that is really the main reason for the service, right? If the medics can work well within the confines of the selected aircraft, now you only have to make it nice for the pilots, but the patient should be the first one considered.

[inthegreen]

hands down the Bell 412

[Larry]

"IHL,
Did the Bandage program recently get rid of one of their S-76's? I saw an orange Sikorsky in a local shop being re-painted for a Childrens Hospital out in California. That orange paint scheme was hideous. "

Yes , that S-76 from Chilrens Hospital is in LA and has been for over a year. I just saw it the other day launching on a mission.
Nice paint scheme. Its only used for hospital transfers and not on-scene work.
LA City Fire Dept Air ops handles all on-scene missions.

Skip

[Pac Rotors]

Sydney, Australia based Careflight had the official launch of their brand new A-119 Koala at Darling Harbour today.

We then went and did some air to air pics of it over Sydney Harbour and it looks fantastic.

As of 3.00pm this afternoon it was out at Orange at their new hangar and begins operations in approx a weeks time. From what I understand its the worlds first dedicated EMS Koala.

[Robbo Jock]

Does that mean it's going to sit in a gum tree all day and sleep?

Any chance of a piccy (or link to one)?

[The Nr Fairy]

PacRotors :

Is that one that Bill Miller has managed to sell them ?

[Pac Rotors]

Capital Helicopters sold it to them, but thats all they did. In the latest Australian Aviation magazine they sent out a press release saying they were doing all the fit out, but that was a load of bull**** as Careflight did it themselves.

If anyone wants to see an image of it, drop me an email and I will send you one.

[Heliport]

Press Release
Eurocopter Announces Ten Aircraft Order for the EC 130

Rocky Mountain Helicopters to Buy EC 130s for EMS Operations

Grand Prairie, TX
Rocky Mountain Helicopter's Chairman and CEO Russ Spray and Jean-Francois Bigay Eurocopter's President and CEO have just signed a contract at the Paris Air Show for the acquisition of 10 EC 130 B4 helicopters.

Rocky Mountain Helicopters, one of the leading providers of air medical services in the United States, has been a long time Eurocopter operator. The ten EC 130s are additional aircraft which will expand their fleet to 95 aircraft.

The EC 130 B4 is the newest member of the venerable AStar (Ecureuil) family. With 23 percent more cabin space than other AStar versions, the EC 130 still offers the same efficiency and performance that these aircraft are known for.

In commenting on the purchase, Rocky Mountain's Chairman and CEO Russ Spray stated, "The EC 130 is an excellent aircraft for the operational requirements of today's EMS mission. We've been very happy with our AStars, as have our customers," Spray continued, "but the larger cabin of the 130 gives us the ability to accommodate the additional medical equipment and personnel that is required for some medical procedures. The open cabin also provides dual patient access, which is not usually feasible in a single-engine aircraft.

"With the EC 130 we can offer our customers the ability to step up to an aircraft that can accommodate the additional equipment, and still have the power to provide the necessary speed and range," Spray added. Rocky Mountain, in conjunction with Eurocopter, will design and install the EMS interiors. "We plan to offer a flexible design to accommodate different medical equipment requirements and patient configurations couple of different options," commented Spray.

"We also plan to get our customers' input on the interior, much like Eurocopter did with the design of the EC 130 itself." The EC 130 evolved from a customer focus group that met regularly with Eurocopter to determine what was needed in a new product. The result was the launch of the EC 130 B4 at this year's Heli-Expo in February.


Is the EC130 the best EMS helicopter?
Or not?
What do you think?

[NRDK]

Single engine.....never be allowed to operate in the UK for EMS/Police work, would have hoped that the Americans would get real and play safe when dealing in built up areas and IFR environments. Sums up most of the operations State side....cheap, the mighty Dollar first, Safety second. Given their litigious nature you would think it would be the other way around.

The EC 130

The EC 130 B4 is the new 7-8 seat single engine helicopter in the Eurocopter product range offering particular qualities of silence, comfort and spaciousness. It features a low external noise emission, 8.5dB under the ICAO requirement. This is achieved by the low noise "Fenestron" and the automatic control of the rotor RPM. The very roomy and modular cabin, has a low internal noise level, and all seats comply with FAA regulations in terms of energy absorption. The EC 130 B4 is powered by a Turbomeca ARRIEL 2B1 turbine engine, complete with dual channel digital engine control system (FADEC), and a back-up control box that automatically controls the engine in case of total failure of both digital channels of the FADEC.

[The Nr Fairy]

From a seriously ill patient perspective ( I've not been one, touch wood ) I suppose the best EMS helicopter is the one that gets you to hospital inside the golden hour.

[Ally1987]

NRDK: I said just the same thing about litigation to someone the other day while discussing HEMS in the US.

[Ancient Pelican]

Gentelman, I agree with you on the issue of twin engine helicopters in the HEMS application concerning safety. However, the reality is profit, but not the grubby profit as is sometimes thought of. Some hospitals are just not making enough money to pay for the twin engine helicopter they really want. The only choice, due to profit, is a single engine. Granted,it is not the best answer, but it is an answer. I would prefer a triple engine for safety with a flight crew of three!! In reality the best helicopter is the one that serves the patient best by getting them to the hospital as quickly as possible.

[Pac Rotors]

Isnt the new EC-130 actually slower than the B-3.

If it is I thought they would have gone for something faster. I suppose if the ones they are buying are replacing programs that have the normal AS-350s then at least the new aircraft will have some extra room in the cabin for the crews.

:confused:

[Hoverman]

NRDK
Do you have any evidence to back up your 'safety' theory, or are your sweeping anti-American generalisations just prejudice?
Are s/e heli's falling out of the sky all over US cities? I don't think so.
Is the American safety record any worse/better than ours?
Does getting 'real' mean that the FAA should assume that the CAA knows best?
Some (including me) might think the Americans know a thing or two about aviation matters and the CAA could learn a lot from the FAA. But, as ever, we Brits think we know best about everything. We always do, with characteristic (and embarrassing) arrogance.
Operating s/e would mean more EMS helicopters and more lives saved. We should follow the American example.

Great to see a major US operator buying European helicopters! :)

[hoverbover]

Hello all,
Not the old single or twin debate again!

I have a couple of points/ questions ;

1. Is an HEMS service with a single ,better than no hems service at all?

2. Is a new single safer than an old twin ?

I am only playing devils advocate , but I hope you can see my line of thought.

I know a twin will always be regarded as the safer option, but how relative is the newness of the machine (the argument for using a NEW model like the EC130 is a whole different argument again I would have thought)

Regards

Hover Bover

[ 10 July 2001: Message edited by: hoverbover ]

[NRDK]

Hoverman.
Sorry about the length of the reply. But these two extracts, taken a day apart show the advantage of TWO over ONE quite well. Not poking anything the American way, the CAA has a lot to learn from the FAA as well as the other way around. To be honest, if as a patient in need, I wouldn't care about 1,2 or 3 engines. But as a pilot I would. Some nice flying by the pilots concerned, well done.

NTSB Identification: SEA01LA085
Nonscheduled 14 CFRPart 135 operation of Air Taxi & Commuter Mercy Flights Inc.
Accident occurred Saturday, May 05, 2001 at Medford, OR
Aircraft:MBB BO-105C, registration: N105RH
Injuries: 4 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On May 5, 2001, approximately 1700 Pacific daylight time, a Eurocopter (formerly Messerschmitt-Bolkow-Blohm [MBB]) BO-105C helicopter, N105RH, registered to TL Forest Products, Inc. of Ashland, Oregon, and being operated by Mercy Flights Inc. of Medford, Oregon, on a 14 CFR 135 non-scheduled air ambulance flight, experienced a failure of the number 1 engine and fire in the number 1 engine compartment. The pilot landed the aircraft safely at the Medford, Oregon, airport, and the fire was extinguished by airport rescue/firefighting (ARFF) personnel. There were no injuries to the airline transport pilot-in-command, two crew members, or passenger/patient on board; however, the fire substantially damaged the helicopter. The accident sequence of events began shortly after the patient was picked up. Visual meteorological conditions were reported at Medford at 1656. The type of flight plan filed for the flight, if any, is currently unknown.

Preliminary information reported to the NTSB indicated that shortly after patient pickup, near the Medford airport, the number 1 engine lost power. The pilot continued to the airport on the number 2 engine. Approaching the airport, the Medford tower controller advised the pilot that the aircraft was trailing smoke; preliminary reports indicated that there was no fire warning in the cockpit associated with this report. The pilot subsequently landed the helicopter on taxiway A at the airport. The pilot then noted a fire warning. The aircraft occupants exited the helicopter without injury, and ARFF arrived on scene and extinguished the fire.

According to the FAA aircraft registry, the accident helicopter is equipped with two Rolls-Royce (formerly Allison) 250 series turboshaft engines. An inspector from the FAA's Portland, Oregon, Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), who responded to the scene and performed an initial post-accident examination of the helicopter, reported to the NTSB that wet oil and combustion products were both present in the number 1 engine compartment, and that no oil was found in the number 1 engine oil tank. The inspector reported that the fuel lines to the number 1 engine appeared to be intact. He further stated that he found the push-pull control tubes for the main rotor melted where they run through or near the engine compartment.
----------------*--------*--------*----------------------
NTSB Identification: FTW01FA115
Nonscheduled 14 CFRPart 135 operation of Air Taxi & Commuter AIR LOGISTICS L L C
Accident occurred Friday, May 04, 2001 at Vermillion 44, GM
Aircraft:Bell 407, registration: N917AL
Injuries: 3 Uninjured.
This is preliminary information, subject to change, and may contain errors. Any errors in this report will be corrected when the final report has been completed.

On May 4, 2001, at 1613 central daylight time, a Bell 407 single-engine helicopter, N917AL, was substantially damaged following a loss of engine power during a precautionary landing near the Vermillion 44 offshore platform in the Gulf of Mexico. The commercial pilot and his two passengers were not injured. The helicopter was registered to and operated by Air Logistics LLC, of New Iberia, Louisiana. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed and a company visual flight rules flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations Part 135 on-demand air taxi flight. The helicopter departed the High Island 368 offshore platform at 1535, and was destined for Intercostal City, Louisiana.

According to the pilot's statement, while enroute from High Island 368 to Intercoastal City, a "slight vibration became noticeable." After a few minutes, the vibration became more pronounced, and was accompanied by a noise. During a precautionary landing to an offshore platform, engine power was lost. The pilot then initiated an autorotation to the water, deployed the skid floats, and landed safely.

Examination of the helicopter, after recovery by the operator, revealed that the K-flex drive shaft had fractured.

[Out of Balance]

I fly a Bell 412 on SAR/EMS tasks here in Australia where there is no legal requirement to operate twin engine helicopters - unless the contract specifies that.

I believe that the issue here is not one of the number of engines, rather the capability of the machine.

Most EMS accidents are attributed to human factors - not engine failures. These factors often include CFIT, inadvertant IMC, disorientation etc - particularly at night.

Operating an IFR machine with coupled auto pilot, possibly two pilots and well trained crewman would help reduce the risk.These aids are generally not available on single engine machines.

My company also operate a single engine machine but we do not use it at night for SAR/EMS tasks as we do not believe it is as safe or as capable as the twin.

I personally feel safer in a twin having suffered two engine failures in my career, but I see no problem with operating a single engine day VFR EMS service where funding is a problem.

[ 11 July 2001: Message edited by: Out of Balance ]

[ShyTorque]

It isn't long ago that the only EMS aircraft in UK were unstabilised, single engined RAF and Navy SAR machines, i.e. the Whirlwind. No-one complained about that. That aircraft had a very good safety record and it certainly saved many more lives than it lost.

When the Wessex was later introduced it wasn't advertised that it was safer because it had two engines; what was emphasised was that it was a more capable aircraft, mainly in range and payload.

Engine failures don't worry most pilots as much as tail rotor failures (myself included) yet there is no requirement for a back-up system on a tail rotor driveshaft on any helicopter that I can recall.

ShyT

[wineboy]

The WA Government sent out a media release today announcing that they would be going out to Tender for a state funded rescue helicopter, providing some $3.5 million bucks to kick it off... :D

[lills]

WA already has SAR/EMS helicopter in the form of the WA Police Air Support Units' BK117.

Maybe if the Govt. funded that properly, WA wouldn't have the headache it has now.

Just wondering how far the budget will stretch, and what about the budget for subsequent years.

Best of luck Ms. Roberts (Minister of Police/Emergency Services)

[Off road]

Has anyone got any idea which company might be tendering for such a contract?

Is the police BK 117 the only heli they use?

Safe Flying;)

[w_ocker]

I had heard rumblings that the BK was to be replaced with a single (350 perhaps?). Anyone know more?

[wineboy]

The WA Police Heli is not a dedicated SAR/EMS helicopter at all, the people of WA do need a 24hr dedicated service. If the WA police Airwing could do the job I'm sure they would;)

I have just watched the Ch10 news and saw that those two guys rowing from Lancelin across the indian ocean activated their beacon and were winched aboard the RAAF Rescue Helicopter today, why then didn't the WA police airwing go. I'm not bagging the Airwing, not by a long shot, I agree they deserve more funding, however it does highlight the need for a more capable service than we have now:cool:

[w_ocker]

Mustnt have been watching very hard WB - RAAF doesnt have any choppers. All Army or Navy. Generally, RAN only get involved if it is beyond the capability of civil SAR agencies to do the hero stuff - out of range, night, bad weather etc etc. Perhaps they did this one because there is nothing capable of the job in WA. Does seem strange that such a huge and generally independant state as WA only has one polie chopper and no SAR/EMS choppers at all!! S'pose it all comes down to the mighty (?) Aus$. Hope things over there improve and more choppers for this sort of service start to appear.

[lills]

Wineboy,

You are right the police BK is not a dedicated SAR/EMS machine that is only because of funding and staffing levels.

The reason that the Air Wing didn't go to Lancelin to perform the rescue is that the winch is U/S. Not because it was beyond there capability.

For w_ocker the RAAF machine is actually a Canadian Helicopter S76, on contract to provide SAR coverage for the RAAF pilots.

The BK is the helicopter operated by WA Police.

[wineboy]

w_ocker
"Mustnt have been watching very hard WB - RAAF doesnt have any choppers. All Army or Navy. Generally, RAN only get involved if it is beyond the capability of civil SAR agencies to do the hero stuff - out of range, night, bad weather etc etc. "

Infact w_ocker, the RAAF have 5 S76's operated by CHC Helicopters, all providing dedicated SAR Services for the RAAF.

The Airwing should be used for Law Enforcement, like the other states, with a back-up capability for SAR etc. Not dedicated SAR/EMS...

Cheers

[w_ocker]

Appologies WB, didnt mean to sound so abrupt. Saw the report and noted the CHC S76 on contract to RAAF from Pearce. chill dude.

[wineboy]

No drama's w_ocker, I've been interested in this EMS thing ever since I moved to WA, several years ago... I'm just hoping it does get of the ground (no pun intended) no matter who operates the service. Police, Private Contractor, Community Sponsered.

:cool:

[w_ocker]

I'll second that!:)

[Avnx EO]

Trying to understand EMS configs, and separate fact from fiction (get an un-tainted opinion.)

Cruisng the brochures (air methods, OEMs, etc)

1) I see some with medical attendant at the head, but with little access to the sides (especially in two litter configuration.) I am told medical attendant at the head is more important than access to the side. True or False? and Why? (EC-135s provide at the head, but an A-109 photo I saw had attendants at the side.)

2) I see many configurations with patient's head forward, other with it aft. Does it make a difference - so long as the attendant has access? I've been told head-forward is preferred, but then the attendant at the head has to sit aft facing (which most people don't like) and in normal flight attitude, the head is down. Maybe that's preferred (ie: feet elevated) but not always. I know that if I was conscious, I'd want to be feet-forward.

Not my area directly, but I'd like to understand.

Avnx EO

[Thomas coupling]

We fly EC135. In the single stretcher configuration (which is 80%) of the time, we allow the paramedic the option of alongside the patients upper body section, or from ahead leaning over the head/chest of the patient. The latter is the preferred option for them because they can easily do the paddles. The side option makes it easier for CPR.

In the two stretcher config. we can only do the ahead option for obvious reasons. I don't think it matterstoo much which angle the paramedics come from as long as they can get to the head and chest area.

[XEMS]

It depends upon how in depth the medical attention is going to be. If it is just a "scoop and swoop" mission, meaning the helicopter is just there for the speed of transport and not for the skills of the medical attendant, then crew seating is going to be secondary to ease of loading and unloading of patient. If the medical crew is going to be doing advanced procedures such as intubation in flight, then a medical attendant at the head is a necessity. For the doctor/nurse/medic to have a clear shot at the patient's airway, the gold standard is to have the patients head sitting between the caregivers legs. Flew Twinstar's, BO-105's, 222's and BK's. All had medical seating at patients head. Flew Agusta 109's and Bell 206l's that did not. No comparisom for the medical crew. They usually would not intubate in the aircraft on the Bell and Agusta, which could lead to longer time on scene since they would opt to do it on the ground prior to loading.

Patients head facing forward or aft isn't really a big deal. You have to remember that the vast majority of patients that are riding in an EMS helicopter are never going to remember the ride!

Good luck.

[bosher]

The 109 E EMS allows medical crew access at the head (with the front seat turned around) to allow easy intubation (if you can call it easy!!!)in flight or just airway management. Plus two seats at the patients side, 1 at chest and 1 at lower leg.

I dont think it gets better than that!

And there is still room for a second stretcher!

Plus you dont have to off load any medical equipment!!

All at 150kts.!!!

:cool: :cool: :O :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

Refusing to intubate from an aside position is a bit short sighted of your paramaedics XEMS:oh:

If a paramedic can access a patients head, thats good enough given the circumstances!! I appreciate head on is the best, but not the only approach.

The 109 might offer that because it is full of HEMS equipment. Our 135 can do 2 patients with Oxy / 911 / Propac / Drugs bag / paramedic / pilot / police observer, AND all the standard police equipment on board and nothing being left behind pre launch!!
deh,deh,deh,deh,deh:p

[XEMS]

My bad for not differentiating between 109a and 109e! I've only got to demo the E and not work the machine. I still say that the gold standard is medical attendant seated at the head. If you are working a multi-mission helicopter then you have many other things to consider, but for a pure EMS machine I think you will find little argument about seating arrangements. We had a seat in the BO-105 that crew could sit forward on the way to the call and then sit aft at the patients head during transport. I think it was made by Bucher, but it has been a while (note the name Xems!) In the 222 the seat could reverse. It all depends upon what the crew input is. Biggest mistake I have ever seen in EMS was having the aviation side of the house outfit the aircraft without any input from the medical side. Talk about some infighting! Anyway, I say as long as the crew is happy with the configuraiton, you will be just fine.

[MD900 Explorer]

Thomas Coupling

Refusing to intubate from an aside position is a bit short sighted of your paramaedics XEMS
You may be an accomplished Pilot, but just exactly was the last time you intubated from the side - or ever at all? :confused:


If a paramedic can access a patients head, thats good enough given the circumstances!! I appreciate head on is the best, but not the only approach
Again, i would stick to flying mate :{

All i would like to say, is that it has to be a very good paramedic who can intubate from the side, and then it is not guaranteed to get into the trachea, but induce vomiting from entering the oesophagus. Even if a bougee was inserted you would still need to get the macintosh blades in the right angle to insert the damn thing, and get it into the correct hole (Since the two sit practically ontop of each other) I could appreciate that a tracheostomy can be performed side on, but most paramedics arn't trained to that level.

Visualisation of the vocal chords is the gold standard in intubation, and i am sorry mate, that ain't possible. Even when you are directly behind the head it is quite difficult, especially with all the vibration of a chopper going on. :ok:

XEMS


Biggest mistake I have ever seen in EMS was having the aviation side of the house outfit the aircraft without any input from the medical side. Talk about some infighting! Anyway, I say as long as the crew is happy with the configuraiton, you will be just fine.

Never a truer word spoken. Nice one.:ok:

Avnx EO

http://www.luftambulansen.no/foto/foto/ujcl4poow7yj01mpl8zyfrglbpaour1258x750.jpg

EC 135 Config showing two seats available

http://www.luftambulansen.no/foto/foto/avwh4vowzki6klmpoor8avkpbrlo6a1241x750.jpg

Fish eye view of EC 135 passenger bay

http://www.luftambulansen.no/foto/foto/bnoliplo62azgxh42w92f2kpbc28w7273x750.jpg

BO-105 with four people in it

I could only find some pikkies, but the EC-135 shows room for both views, both side and head. The BO is like a sardine can. The patient is supposed to be where the defib is ..;) I know which one i would rather be in. Couldn't find more on the other types.

The position when in a normal flying attitude,. is good, because it keeps the blood pool in the centre of the body and head. i think it is called the trendellenburg position, and sometimes the paramedic can alter the stretcher in normal ambulances to simulate this position.

Regards

MD 900 :ok:

[Thomas coupling]

MD900:

All i would like to say, is that it has to be a very good paramedic who can intubate from the side, and then it is not guaranteed to get into the trachea, but induce vomiting from entering the oesophagus. Even if a bougee was inserted you would still need to get the macintosh blades in the right angle to insert the damn thing, and get it into the correct hole (Since the two sit practically ontop of each other) I could appreciate that a tracheostomy can be performed side on, but most paramedics arn't trained to that level.

Seems you agree after all - intubation can and has been done from the side...atleast here with our paramedics.

Nice excerpt from one of your paramedics (above) though:suspect:

If you do this job long enough, you'll see quite a lot, it seems
As you'll no doubt find out for yourself one day!

Nice piccies though...paramedic pilot and photographer to boot . :D

RU West Mids?

[James Roc]

Hi Guys,

Please share your opinions on what you think might be the best (all things considered) Helicopter Air Ambulance available today.

[trimpot]

Victoria, Australia, Latrobe Valley Airfield, the best in my humble opinion:ok:

[airborne_artist]

Do you mean aircraft type or service operator?

[Bomber ARIS]

Inter-facility transfer: S76

Scene work: EC 145/135



All round performer/value for money: EC 135


(Although a skid-equipped EC 155 with 333 engines and a winch would be my fantasy for SPIFR EMS ):}

[James Roc]

Sorry I meant Aircraft type,

Thanks,

James

[Helinut]

J-R,

Its a bit more complicated than just which type is best. Where do you want to do EMS (which country), what is the operational requirement, what hours, what type of flying (VFR/IFR) what sort of operational area, how much money do you have?

All these things affect basic features of the aircraft (starting with single or twin).

[SASless]

Bell 412EP with four axis autopilot and Air Methods interior...assuming they have found some place to put the medical inverters instead of under the pilots seats.:ok:

[James Roc]

It would be operational in the Republic of Ireland pretty much 24/7 and in most weather conditions, operating in and out of a select few suitable hospitals within the Dublin area...

[Helinut]

J-R,

I am no expert on Irish requirements but I vaguely recall that they require FULL IFR at night. That presumably means M/E with all the IFR bits. In the UK HEMS does not work at night, because they would need extra kit to do off-airfield landings (nightsun possibly TI etc.) Don't know if this would also apply in Ireland.

How are the Irish regulators about IFR approaches to helipads? Do they permit GPS approaches?

If you need all the bits, then I doubt that the EC135 will have the necessary grunt (especially if you need full IFR fuel reserves)

Are we talking single pilot?

I don't have direct experience of the type but a BK117/EC145 sounds about the right size/performance etc. I am sure that McAlpine would be happy to sell you one (or two) given their latest sales initiative.

Interesting Project

[James Roc]

An interesting and challenging project given the amount of red tape thats seemingly involved.

Ill check out these machines,

Thanks,

James

[Dantruck]

James

Check your PM's

Dan

[Heliport]

Threads merged.


Heliport

[eagle 86]

B412 upgraded to an AB139 if you want the best mix of SPIFR/search/winch rescue capability/specialist doctor-paramedic/two attended intensive care patients - anything else is a compromise.
GAGS
E86

[Paracab]

Ok Guys, reality check time.

I'm sorry, but intubating is an extremely demanding and difficult skill at the best of times, let alone side on in a HEMS aircraft.

Pilots may think it easy and indeed some big-balled Paramedics may say its easy, but lets stick with the facts.

Its not easy at the best of times, doesn't alway go right and I defy anyone to listen for breath sounds after an intubation on a helicopter ! Capnography is wonderful, if you have it !

[EMS K-MAX]

Ok Guys, I have watched this post for a while and took into consideration all the pros and cons for each machine but I personally think the best platform for EMS operations is the Kaman K-max.

Unsurpassed Visiblity
No tail rotor strike issues
Huge payload
Small foot print to get into the tight confined areas
Plenty of power
Single pilot ops.

EMS K-MAX

[BigMike]

Alfa Helicopetrs in the Czech Republic use the Bell 427. From what their pilots tell me, it is a very good machine.

Cheers BigMike