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View Full Version : Moral Dilemma: What the Hell is going on in Ryanair?


Coconuts
8th Aug 2004, 19:49
I used to have great admiration for Mick O'Leary & thought an acquaintances decision not to fly with FR cause of the way they treat their staff was a load of old poppycock.

But this admiration for MOL is rapidly turning to dislike for his mgt methods & lack of people skills. Xmas seems to have been a major turning point within the company, he nearly worked a pilot friend of mine half to death so much so he was thankful when his time there was up, & I know this pilot to be a hardworking, decent horourable & highly experienced pilot.

Some of his pilots it appears have to sleep in cars there so broke before having to take controls of a jet & our lives, he makes his staff pay for everything & refuses them free water, coffee & tea on the aircraft & if reports are correct he doesn't even allow then to heat up their food in the microwave on the aircraft. What is all this bolloxology, to quote a word he penned & loves to use, about. It appears everyone but MOL & his henchmen are suffering because of his two rapid expansion & that the ledgers are not now showing such a healthy profit. While MOL lives in splendour he makes his staff live on crumbs & work their @sses off for a crust, he seems only to care about himself & the shareholders but treats his staff like slaves. There appears to be a culture of fear & bullying permeating right through the company.

The jist I get is that noone in the company likes him & that everyone would like to leave. He's now recruiting cheaper pilots from Poland & probably less experienced ones at that so the safety element is no doubt going to be gradually eroded with MOL's penny pinching too, I would imagine.

Question I'd like to ask is does anyone feel a moral dilemma flying FR & supporting MOL. Can customers really ignore their consciences anymore about how this company is run & the staff are being treated? What can pax do or we as powerless as the staff?

Coco

Boss Raptor
8th Aug 2004, 20:19
Think you'll find a number of SLF forum regulars wont fly on FR due to service (lack of...) and poor experiences in the past...such as myself Coco...however I also sense some concern from forum regulars as they have watched the MOL/FR Pilots debacle in all its' glory on R&N...and are becoming concerned at the general deterioration of the 'fabric' of this company...I choose my words pointedly but also with some care in this respect :cool:

Passengers do take into account these aspects of an airline and make a choice based on such...and some like myself also identify with the staff's plight (the 'moral' aspect) and wont put money into the hands of an apparent self engraciating, evil, sadistic meglamaniac ;)

Final 3 Greens
8th Aug 2004, 20:52
Coco

I've just booked a short break in Florence.

Could have gone with FR from my local airport, instead am flying AZ from LHR.

'Nuff said.

BEagle
8th Aug 2004, 21:55
I will not, under any circumstances, fly on this ignorant, foul mouthed person's airline even if he paid me to. It's high time any responsible passengers boycotted Ryanair until such time as O'Leary joins the human race.

I could have flown from STN to the place I need to go to in a couple of weeks for about Ä30 with Ryanair. Instead it's going to cost the company Ä1387 for me to fly with a real airline......

Pax Vobiscum
8th Aug 2004, 22:16
If half of what's being said in the R&N thread is half-true, it's enough to make your hair stand on end (though I can give half-a-dozen examples of companies outside of aviation which are just as badly run). I admire those with the backbone and/or influence to choose to fly with other carriers, but I suspect MOL knows very well that nearly all his customers (those not PPRuNe-savvy) choose FR because they're cheap (or, at least, widely perceived to be so).

My work regularly takes me to Jutland, and since FR have the only direct flight from the UK, I expect I'll be back again with them. For the record, I've had no problems with any of the flights, although they're rarely more than half-full and I've never paid more than £22 + taxes, so I can't believe they're profitable.

Coconuts
8th Aug 2004, 22:30
I'm afraid I was at an FR get together recently Pax Vobiscum so I'm getting feedback first hand & not just on the forums & they both substantiate each other. My poor pilot friend is in the dog house now while I feel they got the wrong person & it's O'Leary should be being investigated & not him. Seems like in this company the bad are winning & the good people are being walked over or getting the hell out. I don't personally fly with FR that often its going to make the slighest dent in its coffers if I decided to refrain. Up to now the bottom line with me has been the cheapest price but my conscience feels so troubled now by the goings on there that I will think twice in future before flying with them.

Avman
8th Aug 2004, 23:08
I avoid RYR like the plague! I have no qualms flying Germanwings, V Bird, Southwest or JetBlue (by far the best together with V Bird).

Ranger One
9th Aug 2004, 12:09
Mentioned this thread to She Who Must Be Obeyed, and she came back, quick as lightning, with 'Oh - you mean Air Ratner?!' :rolleyes:

No axe to grind here, I'm a very long way from anywhere FR serves. Last time I flew with them they consisted of a couple of 111-500s and a few portakabins...

R1

G SXTY
9th Aug 2004, 12:09
Iím occasionally forced to travel FR on business, and bearing in mind how cheap the fares were, Iíve never had a bad experience with the product.

However, on principle, not one penny of my hard earned cash will ever go to that airline while that man is in charge. Charging cabin crew for uniforms, pilots for water, and £50 to have a CV read is bad enough. Whatís worse are the threatening memos doing the rounds at STN (see the R&N thread) which suggest a truly frightening management culture.

If OíLeary is the future of European aviation, Iím going by train.

Coconuts
9th Aug 2004, 14:01
Yes, I've never had a bad experience with the product yet either, fingers crossed, but if I do I don't expect much support. No it's not my experiences travelling with them that is colouring my present opinions but reading about them & talking to people who've worked for them etc.

I spent half an hour talking to a brother of a senior pilot recently, yes the one in the 'cabin crew in loo incident', and while I'm fully aware that what the pilot did was technically incorrect, I couldn't help feel the whole way FR is run contributed to the incident. Here is an airline who can't even supply seats to its positioning crews & once fired a chief pilot for booting off a pax when he needed his crew to position to Stansted I think. Of course the fact that this pilot was causing waves in the company may have had something to do with it.

The conversation I had with the pilots brother was deeply disturbing & pointed more to the real villian of the piece being MOL because the way the company is run set itself up for an incident like this to happen.

The further insights I got into the running of the company were no near pleasant. MOL has everyone in the companys backs up, not a great safety ethos, a load of angry, p*ssed off staff ferrying us around in the skies. To think I rang them once re: working for them, what a lucky escape. :uhoh:

I wish Captain XXX well, he's a good man, probably too good & decent to work for the likes of MOL & was loved by the rest of the staff & pax alike, whatever he may or may not have done wrong; I can't say the same for MOL. :mad:

Coco

Michael O'Sleazy
9th Aug 2004, 15:32
Coconut, beejesus, stop peddling this tosh.

A Captain is put in to a position of responsibility. He is put in there because he is expected to use his judgement and knowledge of the rules to ensure that he and the crew operate the aircraft in a safe manner. When unexpected things happen, he is expected to call on his experience and good judgement to uphold that safe operation. He is expected to make hard decisions, things which might inconvenience himself, the crew and the passengers, but nevertheless will ensure the safety of all on board. It's what he's paid to do, and what he's morally obliged to do. Any Captain not willing to do so can easilly slip back to being an FO and take the relatively easy life.

I spent half an hour talking to a brother of a senior pilot recently, yes the one in the 'cabin crew in loo incident', and while I'm fully aware that what the pilot did was technically incorrect, I couldn't help feel the whole way FR is run contributed to the incident.

Rubbish. The company were not aware of this incident till after it had occurred. The Captain did not to my knowledge seek management approval to break the rules. No one from Ops was holding his arm up his back forcing him to break the rules. What he did was more than technically incorrect, he allowed a flight to knowingly operate in an illegal configuration. Good intention and trying to help someone out does not excuse that. His Captains experience and judgement should have allowed him to step back from the situation, assess it rationally, and then make the tough decision to offload them. End of story.

Here is an airline who can't even supply seats to its positioning crews

If you are talking about the two people in the toilets in this incident, then they were not positioning. They were staff off duty on holiday. The fact that they did not make ample provision to get back home in time to recommence duty is not Ryanair or MOL's problem. It is theirs and theirs alone.

once fired a chief pilot for booting off a pax when he needed his crew to position to Stansted I think

Presumably said Captain went to an industrial tribunal if he was operating within the company rules ??

Of course the fact that this pilot was causing waves in the company may have had something to do with it.

Even more reason to go public then if this was the case ..... :rolleyes:

The conversation I had with the pilots brother was deeply disturbing & pointed more to the real villian of the piece being MOL because the way the company is run set itself up for an incident like this to happen.

O'Leary was not there, he wasn't the guy on the spot charged with the responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight, he hasn't written anything in the Ops Manual to say that breaking the rules is OK and that the company insist on it (as long as you don't get caught). In spite of your blind faith in your friend, he was the only one to blame for allowing himself to make the final decision. He had the power and the authority. He had the years of experience to make the judgement call. He made the mistake, it wasn't forced on him. Coconuts, you have to try and seperate in your mind the emotional views you have of your friend (can do no wrong, great guy, etc) from the professional expectations that the airline, the crew, and the passengers had of him. He failed to meet them. As humans are want to do.

The further insights I got into the running of the company were no near pleasant. MOL has everyone in the companys backs up, not a great safety ethos, a load of angry, p*ssed off staff ferrying us around in the skies.

You can talk some sense then ?? His ethos and character are despised globally. But till he has a big fall, he won't care and will continue to stand and crap on all those below him or against him.

Coconuts
9th Aug 2004, 16:04
Hi Michael

Thank you for your good input & I love your username BTW. Yes I know where you're coming from & I take your points. As I said before on the night the captain & I didn't really discuss it since there was a party being thrown from him & I had to be mindful to be subtle with him & not to upset him or confront him. I appreciate the fact that me liking & being fond of the man makes it more difficult for me to be objective about what occurred, I won't deny it. I also know these crew were not positioning but CC returning from holidays, I'm, not referring too them & I'm aware of the other details.

I was trying to sensitively suss out on the night (& above all make sure he was okay, sorry, I know!!!) how such an experienced captain, okay kind hearted I know but known for his no nonsense approach could err so much, I do not for one minute mean to excuse his behaviour. Of course talking in length to his brother gave me a biased view no doubt, but a great insight into the company & its treatment of its staff. That last part of my post you quoted, I think, has all the relevance that you cleverly perceived.

Coco

slim_slag
9th Aug 2004, 19:35
I could have flown from STN to the place I need to go to in a couple of weeks for about Ä30 with Ryanair. Instead it's going to cost the company Ä1387 for me to fly with a real airline......

If I went to my FD showing this contempt for shareholders (or even worse taxpayers) funds because I didn't like what I'd read on an Internet bulletin board he would rip me a new a-hole. Of course the pilots should be able to unionise, and they have a right to bargain collectively, but it's not your job or mine to make moral decisions on how to spend anybodies money except our own.

And stop off at Boots on the way to the back of the plane and get yourself one of those bargain meal deals, might save my taxes a few more quid. :)

BEagle
9th Aug 2004, 20:30
Rubbish. That's analagous to condoning the buying of goods made in a sweat shop.

Cheap is never cheerful...... Someone always suffers.