Which helicopter is the Widow Maker?

[ATPMBA]

My sister works in aircraft finance, they handle a fair amount of helicopter financing. She has heard a lot of chatter in the office asked me this question the other day. I'm sure you know what I told her.

[SASless]

They all have that potential...and at some point all will assume the role. Which is the biggest contributor to the ranks of instantly liberated women....who can care really? The trick is not to be sitting when the music stops in this game of musical chairs!:ok:

[diethelm]

The same one every time.

The helicopter flown by a pilot with poor judgement.

[Hughesy]

I dont think just helicopters can be called that.
Any aircraft has the potential if flown without care, especially by a complacent pilot.
Complacency kills more often then just aircraft type.
Just my thoughts.
Hughesy

[currawong]

Best pilot in the world will not come back when an aircraft throws a blade or some such similar catastrophic failure though.

I reckon any stats will be skewed by what the aircraft is used for.

Take the Huey. Great aircraft, grillions of hours flown, many fatalities, many with the assistance of enemy action.

For my money, fatalities vs hours flown some of these kitset home builder type aircraft lead the race.

[rotornut]

Widowmaker?

The AS 350 with the Lycoming LTS 101 engine, known as the "Falling Star". Fortunately most if not all surviving machines have been re-engined with the reliable Arriel engine.

[rotaryman]

Early in my Career i commenced a type endoresment on the Enstrom, i think its the F28 piston powered etc..

Only did 2 hours! jeezz uncomfortable to fly, poor tail rotor authority subject to ground resonance and also Known as THE WIDOW MAKER..

If you have to work that hard it takes away the fun of flying..

Just my Oppinion...:}

[whatsarunway]

Rotor nut- did they ever fix those engines?
did they only effect the 101s on the eurocopter?
falling stars, that sounds very bad indeed!:uhoh:

[Vfrpilotpb]

The requirement is to be able to walk away when all has gone quiet,

Only on one occasion when this is not possible, and life is extinguished , then you will have flown the "Widow maker"

Incidently the F104 Starfighter in the hands of the German Airforce was the only Aircraft ever to be officially referred to as the "Widow Maker":ooh:

[Aesir]

whatsarunway

Yes the Lycoming LTS 101 has been fixed and is a very reliable engine now. As a matter of fact some operators who have converted engine are changing back now to the 101 because its cheaper to operate than Turbomeca.

I have personally flown over thousand hours with the Lycoming LTS 101-750 with no problems whatsoever and the company has flown them for years without engine problems.

[Maverick Laddie]

Sorry vfrpilotpb :

But long before the F104 was thought of the Martins Marauder of WW2 had such a title due to its habit of torque rolling when you lost an engine not good at low level, Germans called the Heinkel 177 by the same name due to its habit of catching fire, Not forgetting the Messerschmitt 163 that often blew up on landing, even heard the old Meat Box Mk 7 carry the same title.

[rotornut]

Thanks, Aesir, you're more up to date on that than I am.

Also, the early Hughes TH-55/269A was a deadly helicopter. The problem was that if you entered an auto, either practice or for real, the machine tended to enter an uncontrollable dive with fatal consequences. Fortunately, Hughes was able to analyse the problem and fixed it by placing a slat over the canopy (bubble). After the fix, the helicopter was absolutey safe and controllable in an auto - otherwise I wouldn't be writing this;)

[crop duster]

In the late 70's, Air Tractor put the LTS 101 on the AT-302. It was so bad that about 15 years ago Lycoming bought many of them back. Most of the operators elected to put TPE-331 Garretts on them. There are still a few original 302's out there but most have either the Garrett or PT6 on them.

Barrb

[whatsarunway]

thanks aesr

was about to look for another job!

anyone know what the problem was, how did they fix it?

widow maker does not apply to me ! Not married!

[John Eacott]

The main problem with the LTS101 was traced to oil starvation of the No5 bearing. The oil gallery to the bearing tended to sludge up, since it is a line running outside the engine, and the solution is a 10 second motoring of the starter after shutdown, to circulate the oil out of the line! Pressure differential tests are also required as part of the servicing, to indicate whether the line if beginning to block up.

Our 101's are excellent bits of kit, especially now we have the "smokeless" mod: it has an exceptionally clean burn, resulting in a spotless tailboom, and does away with the (almost) daily wash that used to be required. Which is a Good Thing, when you consider the further effects of sooty carbon deposits in the tail rotor bearings, 90 & 45 gearboxes, wiring, etc. :D The 101 always runs very cool, and is really only limited by Tq and N1, even on 35C days. Currently operating in the snow at -5C to -10C, idle is down around 360C :cool:

[rotornut]

Here are a few other widowmakers that I'm aware of:

Fairchild FH-1100 - serious mast bumping problems.

Hiller UH-12 (CH-112) - The RCAF had 24 of these. They had a
serious problem with MR gearbox failures in extremely cold
weather. The problem was fixed by using heated oil from the
engine in the gearbox.

Sikorsky S58T - Catastophic "90 degree" gearbox failures ie. TR
gearbox. Apparently the gearbox was fine in the piston version
but the extra torque from the PT6 Twinpac was too much for
gearbox.

Bell 205 (CH-118) - In extreme cold, the Lycoming T53 would
sometimes quit. The RCAF had a number of these and needed
something more reliable in Arctic conditions. The Canadian
government, therefore, along with Bell developed the 212 using
the PT-6 Twinpac.

Bell 47 - Early versions had serious TR problems.

[Lu Zuckerman]

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the R-22. This helicopter has gained a modicum of safety since the advent of the SFAR and the safety course, both of which were implemented to compensate for the rotorhead problems.

Do I hear not again?

:E :E

[rotornut]

And some early R-22s had catastrophic MR blade delaminations that almost put the company out of business!

[rotornut]

You mean it pops up like the collective in the Hughes 300?

[Bill O'Average]

Saro Skeeter! Would you fly a cab with fabric blades?? (In warm weather, a bucket of cool water is required to be lobbed over blades to 'stretch' them to enable a smoothish start up)!! My mech who has about 40 years experiance of Army helis, the skeeter is the only one he refuses to fly in. That tells me more than the F700 ever could!!

Lynx had a bit of a 'Starfighter' reputation for a while but that was due to spares from 'The British Company that makes helicopters somewhere in Somerset' with less quality control than British Leyland in the mid seventies. As most of you chaps will know, tail and rotor componants deciding to free themselves from its home is not a good thing and tends to drive the insurance costs up a bit! Ask several widows still in my aquantaince.....

Know **** all about civvy helis but judging by some of the R22 pilots I have seen, they are an accident waiting to happen. Do they teach down wind approaches, limited power/tail rotor authority on the PPL(H) nowadays??

[Steve76]

The fuel injected H269C (H300) has killed more of my friends than any other.
3200rpm was just a bad idea.

[SASless]

Uncontrolled popups of the stick....not since a long ...long time ago!;)

[rotornut]

The fuel injected H269C (H300) has killed more of my friends than any other. -

Presumably at max gross and hot and high conditions? I did my initial training in one and we never ran out of rpm but we were relatively light.

[Steve76]

"Presumably at max gross and hot and high conditions? I did my initial training in one and we never ran out of rpm but we were relatively light."

No...... the engine is revving too hard. Well known issue. They just self distruct. A pushrod motor should not run that hard, hense the lesser RPM of the CB models etc...

[rotornut]

OK, got you. We had two 300Cs where I trained but we never lost an engine.

[rotornut]

Make that three Hughes 300s. One of them was written off after it rolled during a practice auto:oh: