RAF & degree (or not?)

[joe2812]

Im coming up to my second year at sixth form and have just begun the formal application process to join the RAF as a Pilot (well, i was going for sponsorship, now i dont know).

I always assumed i would be going to Uni to do my degree in Aerospace Engineering, but the guy i spoke to at my AFCO threw me a curveball when i told him i was going to Uni in 05 - he replied with 'Why?'.

I felt having a degree would mean i'd be 4 years more mature, further understanding of learning etc, but he said the RAF is losing 4 years service from me, which is fair enough, but i thought this was more beneficial?

Does the RAF want their crews straight out of college for that extra 4 years of service, or from Uni with a degree? If i take a gap year before Uni, or for some reason there is a delay after Uni to me getting a commission, i will be over the age requirement of 17-23 (i will be 24 by a few months).

Whilest im carrying on with Uni applications aswell as RAF ones so as not to get caught out, i have concerns over certain situations.

If i defer uni entry to follow the RAF path, fail for some reason and go to uni, ill be too old afterwards to try again

If i join up, get through, and do the RAF's Open University scheme alongside my flying training, will that be too much work as many have suggested?

Will i be disadvantaging (sp) myself by attending/not attending Uni?

At the end of the day, i want a degree if i don't get offered Pilot as its something to fall back on, but im torn on whether to go to Uni or not. It's a case of giving the RAF what they want, but giving myself the best opportunites.

Any advice to those in the same place, or slightly older and further on with their applications would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance,

- Joe

[Ops and Mops]

I always thought the OU scheme was designed so that you started studying AFTER flying training, the point being to get young guys like yourself in to the service, get your wings and onto the front line, and then supporting you through further education. :confused:

It doesn't make much sense to me to force you to study for a degree at the same time as conducting full time flying training. Mind you, this is the RAF we are talking about....:}

Perhaps an option is to apply now for Direct Entry, but if unsuccessful go to Uni and apply for sponsorship after the required period. If successful second time round, you will then be given an offer of service to enter IOT when you graduate (assuming you are awarded a bursary), which may get round the age limitations.

If Mike Jenvey is lurking here, maybe he could clarify whether sponsorship can be awarded to a guy that will be over 23 at graduation, but has been successful at OASC before 23?

Damn university types always manage to make things complicated. :p

[joe2812]

My bad...IOT/Flight training doesnt happen at the same time...

IOT, Flight Training and Command and Staff training give you some of the credits towards the degree, and you can use these to pick up the degree later on which fits around your RAF career.

Should read it properly :(

[Spugford]

Go to uni, have a blast, get a degree. Join up afterwards, have another blast, get paid as much as you would have, had you already been in for those 4 years and have a degree to wield when you leave. I haven't yet heard of anyone in the GD(P) branch having time to do the In-Service Degree thing.

I'd avoid the UAS EFT thing if poss. - same amount of hours as full-time guys whilst you undertake the 'rigours' of a uni degree? Hmmm.

No-brainer.

:ok:

[BEagle]

Spugford - very sound advice indeed! That's the best way these days, I guess. The RAF can't afford the old APO at university system these days - so your way is pretty sound!

Another idea is to join the OTC at Uni to get some military training and experience, then apply for the RAF in your final year at the moment critique. Plus you get paid in the OTC!

[airborne_artist]

What ever you do, go for and get the degree.

The degree is your passport to a wide range of career options, not just RAF pilot.

All kinds of things could happen to you on your way through the system, and with a degree you will be that much more valuable to the world as a whole, should you change your mind/get chopped/not pass a medical etc.

[GDSD]

I was lucky enough to complete 2 yrs service (RM) before going to uni. In my 3rd yr I authorised my own loading onto flying grading. Never wore a uniform (apart from weddings and funerals) for 3 yrs - and got paid even more for being in London.

There were a number of other service personel - mainly 'midi-matelots' - and, I know one of these guys is currently flying harriers fm Yeovilton.

It's a great idea - but, I would take the uni degree first - cos you'll have a great time and for all the other reasons the other responses have identified. Good luck.

(Maybe the FAA are more enlightened :hmm: )

[JessTheDog]

If you get the degree, you will get early seniority and quickly skip the Plt Off/Fg Off ranks. The extra salary will probably pay for the outlay on student loans etc. There are opportunities at Shrivenham etc to do a one year MSc and the Aerosystems course can be converted into a MSc.

[Maple 01]

Do the degree mate. The Airforce won't always be there for you but remember - a degree is for life, not just for the CIO

-Nick

[joe2812]

So the degree would be better for me and my options, but what is it the RAF is looking for?

[BEagle]

Anything which saves them money!

It's your life, not theirs. GO TO UNI!! You won't regret it - but you might need to have an understanding bank manager.

30 years ago, you would have been an Acting Pilot Officer at university, paid at what would be around £12000 p.a. in today's money. (I was paid £1200 in 1972, £1800 in 1973 - when a brand-new MGB cost £1150-ish!). Your UAS membership would have been automatic - and the flying would have been regarded as something to keep you motivated whilst studying. It would NOT have been an assessment - as it is today!

But the so-and-sos have done away with all that because they won't invest the money in you. Ignore the BS, go to uni, join the OTC, have a great time. Then - and only then - apply to the RAF!

[airborne_artist]

And don't believe people when they say your degree is more important than your flying. All you need is a pass.

These days you need more than a Desmond to get interviews at decent companies in civvy street. You need a plan B, and that means a decent degree course, and a good result.

[ACW 335]

With the amount of DE being taken on board lessening every minute i would go to uni.... let the current chop situation settle (if it ever will!)

[airborne_artist]

Only partly relevant to this discussion, but how long until all officer entrants are degree qualified? (excepting those being commissioned from "the ranks")

I'd give it ten years, max.

[The mother alligator]

I would certainly recommend going to Uni. I was in your position this time last year. I thought that the RAF would prefer me young as well, so I discussed this with the AFCO, and they told me to tell the board in my end of OASC review that I would be interested in DE even though I was applying for a bursary. So that's what I did. Went off to uni last year, went to OASC while there, told them what the AFCO has told me to tell them. I was subsequently offered a bursary in GD(P)!!
Now at a UAS, flying (when das teutor is working), getting rat ar$ed and being paid, a little, now and then.
I would also recommend the OTC route, there's a couple of GDE guys I know who took that route. You get paid more, and probably end up being better prepared for part 2 of OASC than you would after being on a UAS. Also gives you a chance to focus fully on your first third of flying training when you graduate from IOT.
There's also loads of laydeeees at uni, forgot that part.
Good luck chap!!
TMA

[BEagle]

Back in non-PC days when they used to hold a "Miss TAVR" competition, the ladies from ULOTC took something like 5 out of the top 6 or 7 places..... :E

If the RAF still had the same university scheme which my contemporaries and I enjoyed, I'd recommend that. But they don't, so I won't! Go to university and join the OTC!

[Obs cop]

Joe,

All of the above is great advice and in many respects I agree but I have to say I'm going to throw a couple of other ideas into the pot.

Firstly, is it the RAF you want to join or would you enjoy flying with the other services. There are plenty of threads about the differences between the services, but crucially the Royal Navy accepts Aircrew (you go through as a joint pilot/observer candidate and they offer one or the other) up to the age of 26 and I believe the Army Air Corps. set their age limit about the same.

Secondly, how much would you owe at the end of your degree? Just a thought as for many this can be a deciding factor because it can make chasing civil aviation that bit harder if the forces don't accept them and they have huge debts.

Obs cop

[joe2812]

Luckily my year (current yr 13 students) are the last year to dodge the top-up fees, so in total, for a 3 yr course id be looking at £10k (ish). Fortunately for me, my family is in the position where this isnt a problem.

Secondly, yes, the RAF is the service i want to join. I have thought about FAA and AAC but given my family history with the RAF, its always been them. Civil aviation just doesnt appeal to me im afraid, it never has really.

I guess it would be useful to look into the AAC and FAA a bit more, just its the RAF i really want!

Just looked at the UOTC homepage btw, didnt even know such an organisation existed! Looks very appealing, thanks very much for pointing that out! :ok:

[thejazzman]

Joe,
Don't even think twice about joining the UAS and going to uni, especailly if you are in the position where your parents are going to be helping you finance!!
I'm in the third year of UAS, doing a non engineering degree. Meaning i can easily afford to go up to the airfield once a week... when we have aircraft that is!!
Have had an awesome time, learnt so much about military, especailly officer lifestyle... have had a small income over the last two years from the RAF and enjoyed a colourful social scene! :O :O
Doing EFT along side a degree is challenging, but if your good enough to be a pilot you'll breeze through it! the plus side is that once your graduate IOT you'll get streamed straight away and be flying the bigger boys toys!!

[Pontius Navigator]

If you get your degree before you join you will start at Flying Officer, the green shield route stopped some time ago, but you will only do a couple of years as an FO. Time well spent avoiding responsibility. And you will probably be a flt lt by the time you finish training.

As far as getting an in-service degree, the blanket stackers etc get buckets of credits in the training system and then can get the degree in a coupe of years after starting productive service. As aircrew do not bank on it.

A BS gets it all done and then does a modicum of OTJ. The aircrew qualify, convert, become operational, blink and start again to pass the annual standards checks. In between you are either on route, out of area, or detached to Cyprus or Red Flag.

If your feet touch the ground it will be in the bar with a tinny.

[Maple 01]

Also in service the enhanced learning credit scheme will just about pay for you to do a degree thought the OU -

http://www.learning-forces.org.uk/ for more details

However I still recommend doing the degree the 'normal way'
if nothing else you could use the money to fund an MA!

-Nick

[joe2812]

So with the number of DE going down, its better to be going there with a degree and UAS/OTC under my belt?

[Unmissable]

With the latest Defence Cuts announced recently, you do not have to be Brain of Britain to realise that competition is going to get harder in the near future (and stay that way). Therefore my gut feeling would be 'go for the degree'.

However, the RAF love a young recruit who will give them a minimum of 12-15 years front line service before joining the airlines. (New Terms of Service will be to age 40 to fit in with new pension scheme!!). Also I have met plenty of very sharp dudes who are moving up the ranks a lot quicker because they have age on their side rather than a degree. Universities accept mature students, the RAF don't.

So if promotion is your aim (which will take you out of the cockpit) then try and join early. If a good time and a cheap APTL by the age of 40 is your aim, then go to uni.

What would I tell my son to do? (another thread, I know). Well, if he wanted a career (ie high rank), I would first try and back both ways (being completely open about it.) ie "I would prefer to join the RAF first but if I fail I will go to Uni, join the UAS and tray again". At the same time, ensure he has a good uni place up his sleeve and if in doubt, go to Uni.

One of the standard questions at OASC is what will you do if you fail?. A good and realistic answer will paint a better picture than any bull about 'I only want to fly'. The RAF is looking for more than 'stick monkeys', it wants leaders who will achieve their aim despite the difficulties facing them.

Why do want to join the RAF??

[BATS]

joe

I agree with the majority that a degree is the best course of action prior to entry, but you should take into consideration the implementation of the new military pension scheme which IMHO will disadvantage anyone joining on the new terms. If I remember rightly it is mandatory for all new joiners after Apr 2005. I know that your pension seems like years away, but joining under the current terms will ultimately give you more choices later in life.

Anyone else care to comment ??

Rgds

[Captain Kirk]

Joe,

Yours is a question that I have been asked many times. The simple fact is that it makes more sense for the RAF to get you early – greater return of service and you are more accommodating of the demands of training, more malleable even. For a long time the RAF courted graduates which I suspect owed more to a misguided perception of who should populate the officer cadre – I am glad to see that notion has diminished.

Interestingly, my own circumstances were not too different from yours. I saw university as a stepping-stone to the RAF and applied for a cadetship to study aeronautical engineering– when I was offered Direct Entry I jumped at the chance. Personally, I lucked in – had I waited I would have hit a massive holding crisis that was just over the horizon, taken years to get through and missed out on some amazing experiences.

Therefore, I avoid giving direct advice but encourage anyone in your position to see what each option really represents:

Direct Entry will be fantastic at your current age and you will have a chance to get on with doing something that, from the sound of it, is in your blood. Forget any nonsense about being better placed to achieve high rank – if that alone is what motivates you, become a politician (because you will always be subordinate to one in the RAF).

University will also be an amazing experience, leaving you with a respected qualification, exposure to a broader spectrum of life – and, as correctly observed by the Alligator, lots of girls! The RAF does not care what degree you get. So: A. Choose something really difficult that impinges upon your chances to make the most of all the ancillary opportunities, quickly becomes obsolete and will never be used again if Plan A is successful. Or B, choose something that will be fun, not too difficult, give you a general education that will always be useful and, preferably, have a high ratio of girls attending.

I would not want to turn the clock back and can no more hope to predict what the future holds but, if I were in your position, I would go to university and read history. Or underwater basket weaving!

Then become a fighter pilot.
:cool:

[thejazzman]

Agree that maybe DE would have been preferential a few years back when the demand for pilots was higher. However, in the current climate, with holds and reduced pilot intake etc. A three year stint at univesity may mean that by the time you come to apply for a place on IOT, which adds at least another year, the holds etc (may) have sorted themselves out!

And the pension won't come into play for you anyway Joe, becuase there is NO way that you will have applied, been accepted, passed and graduated Cranwell before the April 2005 cut-off! (Although I'm not sure if you need to have graduated to make the cut-off...anyone know??)

[BEagle]

With secondary education standards falling to ever lower levels, were you to become unsuccessful during pilot training, you would have nothing to fall back upon if you didn't have a degree...

I joined as a Flt Cdt; however, I 'lucked in' when the massive University Cadetship expansion occurred at the end of the 60s. As a result I had 4 years of fun, flew far too much (it wasn't used for streaming back then) - and by the time I graduated, virtually everyone was being sent FJ. Had I stayed on the Flt Cdt course, there is no way I would have flown FJs as the ratio of FJ:RW:ME was something like 2:1:10 just a few years earlier!

But I wouldn't do Aero Eng at University! Business studies, perhaps? Or Geography - pretty babe-tastic?

If you've got a mathematical background up to and including basic calculus, you've probably got all you'd need for RAF pilot or ATPL level mathematics.

Go to University, read an interesting degree, join the OTC. If your father is some wheel in the RAF and wonders why you didn't apply for the UAS, tell him it's thanks to his colleagues who have totally screwed up the University Cadetship system!

[joe2812]

The reason for the degree is that it's needed to become an EngO, which is what i think i'd go for if i didnt get pilot after the first two attempts.

I know a degree is required for that branch, but does it not have to be an engineering degree? If i can do American Studies or something then i will, i just thought it had to be relevant??

[PhoenixDaCat]

I had always planned to join the RAF and having made it through Cranwell and being accepted for Fighter Control, I decided at the last minute that I wanted to have something to fall back on should things not work out for me in the RAF.

Went to Uni, had a great time, was sponsored by Siemens on the electronics course that I did, and ended up with a job with them. Left there 4 years ago to do IT contract work and I'm now able to pull in a 6 figure sum each year, working for myself. I had wanted to join the RAF since the age of 9, but boy am I glad I didn't now.

In the 8 years since I graduated I haven't once been asked to prove my qualifications.

[mightyai24]

Joe- to my knowledge, yes, it does need to be an engineering degree for engineering! The in service degree- scheme is a very good scheme but will take a long time to get there. I'm 3 or so years out of IOT, and only just applying to take mine up. The OU website has a lot of good info about credit transference schemes for the various RAF training courses, but they do consider the relavance to the degree you consider. The learning credit scheme which is offered is good, but you won't be eligible for the enhanced learning credits for a while - the next registration date is in 2012. However, if you were doing OU off your own back in the RAF, you will get a discount, and standard learning credits will give you £175 a year. They will also pay for 2 week long residential courses a year, and treat the first one as duty so you don't need to take leave. Having said all that, as a thicky myself, and knowing that I'll spend this entire tour as an F/O, I'd say go to Uni as the pay is not that good until you get at teast 2 stripes on your shoulder! If you can, get as much info from the publications at the CIO, and if you have questions, call OASC directly, as you'll generally find you'll get better advice than in your avaerage CIO! Hope it all works out.:)

[RADAR Advisory]

I was in exactly the same position back in the 1st part of 2001. I was going to uni to study Aerospace Manufacturing Engineering because I was under the impression that everyone does and it was expected of me. I went for sponsorshipin 2001, and when it came to the final debrief the Wg Cdr asked if I'd accept a DE or not. I admitted that I probably would. Offered and accepted it a few months later.

Whilst I did not feel a degree was worth it's weight anymore, you may actually be interested in the subject, and not necessarily the fact that you have a degree. I agree with the coment about the problem with the flying system being congested at the moment. You may find if you go for sponsorship that they don't even want DEs until the system is sorted.

My advice is you keep both applications and just see what they offer . . . no need to make a decision too soon. All I know is I made the right choice for ME! Decide whether or not you really want a degree or just a good time.

[BigGrecian]

I had my place at Uni doign Aero Eng, but the RAF nabbed me and made me join up. The Degree doesn't do anything in way of promotion if you join up straight away at 18/19 but if you joined at 23 without a degree it wouldn't. With some titles of degrees nowadays, think yourself lucky if you are selected to join one of the few organisations which doesn't require a degree, but offers similar promotion prospects! Join the RAF, have a time just as great as Uni, with even cheaper booze, whilst being paid to drink! You can't start the In Service Degree until on the Front Line where once your Combat ready you should have sufficient time to complete your degree, or fo the MSc once on the front line at Shriv.

[frodo_monkey]

Personally, joined at 18 and never looked back... Am now 21 and just starting on the Tornado F3, and I keep hearing from mates who did the Uni thing and are now stuck in crummy jobs earning half what I do, and who the RAF has said no to.

Take a long hard look at what you want to do, talk things through with your parents, and try to visit a Station if you are able and talk to the JPs or JNs on the squadrons and see what their perspectives are.

Frodo_Monkey

"Air defence - hoorah":)

[Maple 01]

just starting on the Tornado F3,

Didn't want to fly in a fighter them?;) ;)

More a case of "Air Defence - Who?":{

[frodo_monkey]

Maple 01,

Sad but true... Actually wanted to go muddies, which means its sadly ironic that I'm sat in a bomber now!

;)

Frodo Monkey