Why do weekend Pilots persist in making a million radio calls

[JSM]

Was out flyin today and could not believe the amount of radio calls that were made by a group of people flying into xxxx, surely circuit training teaches you how to space yourself in the circuit, tell me im winging, but fair dincum it went on and on and on and on.......... :confused: :confused:

sorry,

Post should have been in GA forum

[pohm1]

Don't worry about the ones who make too many calls, it's those that don't make any who will kill you :ugh:

[dingo084]

JSM, perhaps your understanding of the calender is at fault. As you say "Was out flyin today " and today is a TUESDAY.:confused: How do you connect that with a "weekend"

:confused:

You also seem unsure as to what circuit training teaches. Forgive my rash assessment but you do seem a little light on aviation knowledge and practice. Could you be just playing with a PC Sim?:8

ding:{ :{

[JSM]

what im getting at is the fact that some people see it as a requirement to broadcast their position at 20nm, 15nm, 10nm, 8nm, 3nm and then every leg of the circuit. Now i am a big fan of radio calls, but when the radio is taken up unnecessisarily, to a point that others can't make important calls, thats when i think there is a problem, in all my training i was always taught to say what was necessary and thats all, if someone is conflicting with you then one would hope that they would call you.

I see this as a serious issue, im not looking to be slandered here

[dingo084]

JSM, I'm only reading what you wrote. I am sorry to say that it appeared confused. Just what has flying on a Tuesday got to do with a weekend:confused:

You claim as "fact" that some people see it as a requirement to broadcast at a number of distances. Could it be that they are responding to THEIR perception of the traffic mix at a given time. If they perceive the need for a rt call, then so be it. You are not sitting in their seat and cannot honestly say you are also looking through their eyes (and ears). Again you are not in a position to adjuducate on the necessity or otherwise of somebody elses rt call. I have absolutely no problem with people making a rt call if they believe they need to, it's their call, so to speak.

Like "pohm1" it's the non talkers that concern me.

As I said, I am only reading and responding to what you wrote and the inconsitencies I have discussed here.

ding:ok:

[JSM]

i'll leave it for the To Hard Basket

[mjbow2]

....Easy there dingo!

JM's got a good point.

Ive been flying OS for about 6 years and the thing I noticed straight away was the excess drivle associated with position reporting in the patch here in Oz.

I felt like getting on the radio and telling everyone to shut up! Tell me where you are and what your doing....dont try and engage me in a converstation about how we should seperate ourselves.........If I know where you are I will stay out of your way, or if I cant find you when I get near, Ill ask!


JM.....you have every right not to be slandered on this issue. After all it is a safety issue when you (and I ) cant get a word in edgeways, to report our postion when every other chatterbox insist on clogging up the airways with USELESS information. It is especially sad when there is only say, 4 planes in the patch.....

[DirtyPierre]

JSM et al,

Might these weekend pilots be chattering so much because;

- they don't know any better,
- their licence training didn't cover this sort of airmanship.

Perhaps the training and experience of these pilots is inadequate and needs to be addressed?

What say you?

DP

[bigfella5]

Call me cautious but after 14 years of flying....I prefer to hear what's happening out there....it's the plonkers who insist on NOT making any radio calls that worry me......better too many than not enough;)

[victor two]

I have no idea what you regard as an excessive level of radio usage but as it was said before, I would rather tolerate a bit of chatter rather than get surprised by an unexpected plane appearing in the windscreen. Student pilots tend to be nervous and be a bit excessive on the radio sometimes but without doubt, the worst example of utter blabber on a radio that I have ever heard was in the Bungles in WA where so called professional pilots just crap on with each other at will. This is on the area frequency as well as their own company freqs. " Passin' ya on the left Macka, behind ya Jacko, can't see ya robbo, where are ya johnno, " Then there is the annoying slang used on the area freq such as " XXX is a Scare-van, fifteen miles north and not going very fast, estimate the north east tip at time 12" etc etc.

Yeah, that's just hilarious really!

Without doubt, some blokes just love the sound of their own voice coming through their headsets.

[JSM]

This post all came about because i was flying, a scenic, and there was a group of ACFT travelling in convoy, and im sure they must have had the PTT button sticky taped down, now when i am flying in a group, ( say spaced a mile or two apart) ultimatly we are going to end up in a circuit together, i always make a point of contacting the other ACFT (s) on company FREQ and sorting our seperation outfor the CCT, then when we all get there its easy, people flying in groups/ convoy can do this on 123.45 without any worries, this then leaves Ctaf, Multicom, Mbz whatever, free for those other people trying to carry out whatever operation it is that they are trying to do. There is nothing worse then trying to make a back tracking call, knowing full well that there will be knowone in the CCT for another 5 min and not being able to get a word in. Yes i know sometimes thats just the way it is, but surely its better avoided if possible.

P.S. at the end of the day i want to get home safely just like everyone else.

[SeldomFixit]

There is no greater adjunct to " see and be seen " as " hear and be heard "

[Atlas Shrugged]

SeldomFixit,

Exactly. Alerted see and avoid ensures that we don’t conflict with other aircraft and increases the probability of seeing other aircraft by knowing where they are, where they are going, where they are going to be and where they are coming from and it relies totally on our ability to communicate on the radio. I would much rather hear a simple call from someone than not – who you are, where you are and what you are intending to do.

To form a mental picture of where the traffic is and where it will be in relation to our own aircraft we need to know where to look. Simple.

AS

[Feather #3]

Firstly, the reason for so many calls is usually a lack of training.

Secondly, "radio arranged separation" works if you've all got radio. However, for those above like 'Atlas Shrugged', don't lull yourselves into a false sense of security that just because you've been talking, that you know where everybody is. Oddly enough, an MBZ may be the worst place for this because the only true records of participation rates in MBZ/CTAF showed a lesser rate in MBZ.

Make the calls you need to, resolve conflict if there is to be one, and keep a sharp lookout! :eek:

G'day ;)

[Edited for syntax.]

[Spinnerhead]

I agree with you 100%.

Many is the time I couldn't get a regulation broadcast out because some twit is blabbing on to some other twit who is actually heading away from them. They then come to the the conclusion "Should be well clear then" (another ridiculous radio statement, as every pilot needs to be the judge of that themselves).

[curfew2]

I would have thought all that time spent down at BEB, you would have welcomed the conversational R/T from other pilots.

And by the way, I have heard those flying the mechanical palm trees give non standard radio calls before.... or maybe you were refering to the AA pilots, not fixed wing pilots in general??

[RENURPP]

JSM

I understand where you are coming from and agree 100%.

Talking alone does not assure seperation. How about the other guys up there that don't get heard because of
1 no free radio time.
2 over transmitted by some one who thinks we like the sound of their voice.

If more people thought about what they where going to say before they started flapping their gums they could half the amount of chatter on the radio.

[currawong]

Why do weekend pilots make a million radio calls?

Perhaps weekend instructors are teaching them to.

[locusthunter]

I always find it interesting that training always gets the blame for issues like this...

Quote (currawong):
"Why do weekend pilots make a million radio calls?
"Perhaps weekend instructors are teaching them to."

Quote (DirtyPierre):
"Might these weekend pilots be chattering so much because;
"- they don't know any better,"
"- their licence training didn't cover this sort of airmanship."

Quote (Feather #3):
"Firstly, the reason for so many calls is usually a lack of training."

What a load of %$#@!
This is like saying the reason YOU are dumb is because YOU had bad teachers when you were at school...give us a break...


Training does cover radio calls (how many, what type, what is mandatory etc.) - it has to. A good majority of flying instructors engender excellent radio habits in thier students.

Some people, after they get their commercial licence or private licence, like to think that they are God's gift to the air and like to be seen as sharp, witty, clever people who have something important to say.

As Victor Two said- it's not just your weekend warrior PPLs who have this problem...

Victor Two:
"Student pilots tend to be nervous and be a bit excessive on the radio sometimes but without doubt, the worst example of utter blabber on a radio that I have ever heard was in the Bungles in WA where so called professional pilots just crap on with each other at will. "

My 2 cents...:ok:

[Atlas Shrugged]

Feather #3,
don't lull yourselves into a false sense of security that just because you've been talking, that you know where everybody is. That's not what I said.

I said that knowing where to look increases the probability of seeing other aircraft. It doesn't guarantee it.

A

[tobzalp]

R/T training is a shocker IMO. I remember being out on a cross country with a good mate of mine and we did a touch and go at some farm strip. He made no calls and said to me that he did not as sometimes the farmers monitor the 'appropriate' frequency when they see/hear an aircraft in the area so that they can send the owner a bill. This was a technique shown to him by his instructors to keep the costs for the flying school down. Disgraceful. Oh and we nearly got cleaned up by a Westwind an hour or so later that was cruising at a non standard VFR level and broadcast at the last moment upon reaching. Last time I got into one of those little death machines.

[Desert Duck]

Had to listen to a bloke at Birdsville a few months ago make 14 seperate calls on the CTAF, after his initial 10 mile call, before he landed.
Only one other aircraft well behind him inbound.
A little too many

[dingo084]

Somebody please explain what this flying on a Tuesday has to do with the weekend.


Or is it just another wild assumption.

ding:confused:

[JSM]

Sorry,

I should have said why do some PILOTS (i was stereotyping with the term weekend)

It really annoy's me that some people on this website get of on reminding people of there spelling and grammer mistakes or choice of wording.

Get out more!

This aint no F&@kin english lesson

[dingo084]

HUH:confused: :confused:




ding:D

[currawong]

JSM,

Speak English, learn some manners, and you may find people start treating you like an adult.

Thread had potential, turning into a winstun.

I'm off.:yuk:

[DirtyPierre]

This is like saying the reason YOU are dumb is because YOU had bad teachers when you were at school...give us a break...

Locust Hunter,

My quote does not infer that YOU are dumb because of bad teachers, it infers that there maybe a deficiency in the training process, or that the experience of the pilots does not lend itself to good airmanship.

From the Macquarie Dictionary - Dumb: stupid; dull witted.

It appears you might be the dumb one.

DP

[VH-Cheer Up]

DP, pot calling the kettle? Your post cannot infer. It may imply... quite different. Look it up.

JSM - I recall flying some early morning solo practice bumps and circuits in an outer suburban MBZ airfield when another pilot announced he was taxiing for the upwind end of the only available runway in order to takeoff downwind and in a direction contrary to the existing pattern being flown by the only other aircraft in circuit.

How many short, precise, clear calls do you reckon I made announcing my intentions downwind, base, turning final, and short final to land before Captain Cloth-Ears got the message, looked at the windsock and in the sky to see what might be going on and decided a takeoff into the wind might be in order?

Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
In that order will do nicely. Thanks.

VH-CHUP

[DirtyPierre]

VH-CHUP,

Maaate! Just looked it up.

From the Macquarie Dictionary -

Infer: 2) Colloquial to indicate or involve as a conclusion; imply
3) Colloquial to imply or hint

Imply: 3) to indicate or suggest, as something naturally to be inferred, without express statement.

I try to use the correct words with the correct meanings. Thats why I've got the dictionary. Sometimes I might be speaking (posting) colloquially.

And VH-CHUP, heres another colloquialism for you -

Get a big black dog up ya!

DP

[locusthunter]

DirtyPierre,

You seemed to have missed my point altogether- I wasn't calling anyone dumb... I was showing a parallel - let me spell it out...


Blaming training (and instructors) as the main problem for idiots who make too many (bad, stupid) radio calls, is like blaming a persons lack of ability to think on bad teaching...

Regardless of how bad somebody has been instructed, a person who gets into an aeroplane with a private or commercial licence to fly him/her self around still has the opportunity to actually THINK for themselves about their radio calls.

...And I was trying to say that instructors seem to often get the blame for some dumbwit who makes 14 calls from 10 miles...like Desert Duck has explained...

...and the point that the majority of instructors teach their students well ...


:ok:

[DirtyPierre]

Locust Hunter,

Reread my original post on this thread. I implied that the training may be at fault, not the instructors.

The instructors may be well skilled, but if the training course is inadequate, then it doesn't matter how good your instructors are, the training received is still inadequate.

Nes't ces pas?

If the pilots are not doing the right thing with R/T, then how were they taught to do the R/T? Are they doing what they were taught, or is their R/T training deficient is some way?

Tell me, if the training was adequate, then how come JSM has a significant complaint?

DP

[Dave Incognito]

Why is it that when a group of private aircraft fly around, they generally fly within a mile or so of each other? Just this week we had a group of 6 or 8 private aeroplanes all heading down to the bungles from Kununurra. After deciding to depart at 9am (along with 12+ local aeroplanes departing on their scheduled 9am flights :rolleyes: ), they all take off one after the other in quick succession. Sure enough with a mix of around 20 (I stopped counting at 15) local/visiting planes in the MBZ all heading in the same direction at different speeds, it all turns messy.

This group then spends a huge portion of their time talking to each other over the radio and looking out for each other while all the amazing scenery is passing away underneath them. Why not just space everyone out by 5 or 10 minutes so you can relax a bit more, take in all the landscape around you and give your PTT a holiday?

This happens every time a group passes through here. They all take off together and then clog the radio frequency because they are worried about being so close to each other. I just don’t understand the rational behind it. Maybe someone that participates in these group fly away activities can explain?


victor two,

Yes some of the locals can spew out a lot of dribble on the radio around the bungles such as pointless passing calls etc etc. I’m not condoning that at all. However, if you don’t want to listen to chatter on other people’s company frequencies then don’t tune into them….. :hmm:

[CAPTAINOZ]

Well get ready Dave, those nuisance yanks are on their way up to "Kannanarra" again! Saw the cowboys at Tindal today. Are they still performing the formation take offs at KU and getting caught in each others wake?? :=

[dingo084]

Dave, how dare anybody else go flying when the KU locals want to. How impertinent of the visitors. What poor scheduling by the locals, all going at 0900, who do they think they are, an airline?

ding

[locusthunter]

DirtyPierre,

Understood- re: the training & instructors.

The implication seemed to be that instructors or pilots' initial training was the problem - I am not so sure.

It is just easy to blame training or instructors...or lack of CASA literature on radio calls...or whatever...


At the end of the day, it is a few individuals who don't think about the fact that others may be trying to use the 'radio space' and that they are cluttering up the airways.

But anyway, I am starting to agree with currawong...

"Thread had potential, turning into a winstun."

:ok:

[Dave Incognito]

CAPTAINOZ,

Yeah, the formation takeoffs are still the flavor of the month. They did the bungles in form not that long ago. I’m sure they got a great view of the bloke flying lead while the bungles were passing by underneath them. Whatever tickles your fancy I guess…

Dingo,

...how dare anybody else go flying when the KU locals want to.

I didn’t suggest that nobody else could go flying when the locals do. I did however suggest that it is not the most intelligent thing to do. The ERSA even states that visiting pilots are welcome to contact the local operators for a briefing. Why? So we can show people the route, the MBZ/CTAF/radio procedures and the most appropriate times to go. Many people take us up on this and are very appreciative. Almost all of these people then elect to depart at a time that does not coincide with the local departure times. Why? So they can minimise their workload during the flight (not having to worry about 15 other aeroplanes around them) thereby allowing them to enjoy their flight more than they might have otherwise. It’s simply common sense.

The particular group I was referring to in my previous post hadn’t even taken the time to thoroughly brief the required procedures at Kununurra before the flight. I know this because the first bloke to taxi briefed those in his group behind him by reading out the ERSA procedures over the MBZ frequency not once, but twice. Meanwhile in the small gaps between the on-air briefing, people are struggling to get in the mandatory circuit joining and taxi calls. As I mentioned, this is all happening while there are around 20 aircraft in the MBZ.

What poor scheduling by the locals, all going at 0900, who do they think they are, an airline?

As for operating on a schedule, it is a very common practice for large tour operators, both flying and non-flying. Believe it or not, coordinating 4WD/heli/lunch transfers, first/last light constraints, aircraft/pilot utilisation etc. etc. is best done with a schedule. Just ask any geriatric that has been on an AAT Kings bus.

Having the local aircraft all depart at the same time isn’t generally a problem. The pilots have all been trained on the route and generally fly it on a regular basis. As a result, the tracking and radio calls are very standardised, making it easy to visually spot aircraft as you know precisely where to look for them. This means you can easily get by with just the minimum required MBZ/CTAF/bungles calls. Which brings us back to the topic of this thread….

[cogwheel]

Now back on to the topic!

It is not only "weekend pilots" that make too many calls, but charter and regional airline pilots are "offenders" but perhaps for different reasons.

Certainly the lack of any STANDARDISED training in R/T is a very significant reason for so much verbal garbage these days. Many instructors and training pilots teach what they have been taught themselves and without a specific course that is examined there is very little if any standardisation from the flying school to the airlines. Even many airline pilots talk too much. Just listen to the excessive readbacks you hear these days! (you could have a thread on that alone!)

As for operations in a CTAF (or MBZ) the very basic philosophy should be that you only conduct direct exchanges with traffic that is in (potential) conflict with you (in order to avoid that conflict). There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to talk to everyone that you hear in the CTAF/MBZ just because they are there. If they have made a broadcast in response to your initial call and they are not in conflict then that should be it.

Of course the problem mentioned above in regard to training might prompt an unnecessary exchange if the required information is not provided in the broadcast. (ie: position/altitude/intentions etc)

In an ideal world an initial call (inbound or taxi) should prompt a broadcast from anyone else in potential conflict. If there is no conflict expected as a result then that should be it - period. Any subsequent broadcast should be recorded and assessed for conflict in a similar manner. Only if a conflict is apparent should direct communications take place.

Some of the worst offenders are some regional airlines who seem to teach their folk to talk to everyone they hear even if there is no possible conflict whatsoever. A certain Saab operator is a big offender in this regard. Of course what happens next is that Joe Private Pilot hears all this carry on and thinks that it must the right (??) or done thing and tries to copy it without the background knowledge of what he is trying to achieve as a result. All this only adds to the garbage and makes the problem even worse. #$%^&* !!

As was said in an article some time back, one should consider what "value" is obtained from any radio call. If there is no value, then why make the call?? Of course the exercising of some common sense and good airmanship to all this would also help. Trouble of course is that neither of these items is found in the training world these days. CASA and ASA don't seem to understand the issues either, otherwise they would be addressed - no?

[Uncommon Sense]

I believe it was that champion of GA Dick Smith who wanted ti stop all the radio calls to save money.

The saving money part included grouping area frequencies with control frequencies which we have today.

But the chatter didn't stop - it just meant that all the crap RT now jams up the centre / approach frequency when so ATC instructions can not be issued / heard.

Great progress.

While we are on it how about some of you who are the culprits read the AIP on exactly what has to be read back (too much in the AIP to start with) or at least ask an (experienced) instructor.
Include in that what is required when under radar control - it differs. Example: ATC are supposed to give a reason for radar vectors - you don't read back the reason!

Some of the RT I hear for a simple circuit entry you would think the Space Shuttle was returning to Edwards AFB with an emergency!

[triadic]

Don't get me started on read-backs!

As one involved in the 1997 review of radio procedures including read-backs to more align the Australian procedures with ICAO one of the concerns was that unless the AIP was written to reflect the deliberations of the working group and appropriate training was put in place the default position of many pilots that either did not understand the requirements or did not care, was to read everything back. Seems that is the case now as even the trainers have very different views on what should and should not.

Unfortunately CASA failed in writing the AIP amendment to reflect the working groups detailed recommendations and then failed to place any significant training in place.

Why is it that some pilots read back weather and traffic info?? Der! Not to mention all the other things they think should be read back but in Australia do not. Eg: cancellation of a restriction, or information that is in no way an "instruction".

This failure of the training in radio procedures etc has carried thru to most aspects of our operations (including ATS and the airlines) in Australia and the result is what we have - far too much talk and the topic of this thread is just the tip of the iceberg. Just as well we don't have much traffic otherwise it would be much worse.

[victor two]

I don't entirely agree that the GA guys who hack about the bungles are entirely clear with their position reports and the level of chat of the area freq is not something to be proud of either. Due to their familiarity (and boredom) with flying the same route so often, I found that there is a fair bit of non standard slang type-position reporting. That may be fine for each other but you guys should remember that you don't own that airspace and others fly through it also. The other business that I thought was a bit dodgy is all the "formation" flying and closer than required overtaking that goes on in there.
Either your chief pilot doesn't know you guys do it or he condones it but it'll catch up with a couple of you formation flyers one day. If you want to be fighter pilots, join the airforce. If you think the passengers enjoy it then you are wrong. it just makes them nervous and distracts from the scenic that they paid top dollar to enjoy.

[drshmoo]

Victor2 formation flying over the bungles hahaha as if that ever has happened. Its much better formating down the lake. Wake up the chopper guys were just as bad when I was up there. There are a few extra things said over the area East Kimberley CTAF freq but anything that lasts more than one or two words will be taken to an appropriate chat frequency.

Dave Incognito as per program you are on the cash and someone has not understood you ahh. Possibly a lack of education:} haha. I think that all those groups (172, Comanche club) that fly up there are all up there in good spirits and its great to see large groups of people united in doing something we all love that is flying. BUT Jesus memories come flooding back from the Comanche clubs antics last year, memories...DaveIncog ask DH, we where flying down the lake together northbound at the time chatting on a separate freq not in formation cause he was in a caravan and I was in "the peoples champion" and obviously he couldn’t keep up. Now we were about 30nm out of ku and a whole armada of Comanche’s were roaring in on calls like "yeah mate I’m inbound 1/2mile from you Dave" etc "yeah mate IM 3 nm now" (not a call sign was mentioned) but the best of all about 10 of these calls we could hear on EK CTAF and they were supposed to be on KU MBZ, potential carnage. The rubbish continued with more shenanigans I won’t go into but nothing, nothing short of a shambles

Someone mentioned Saab operators making too much R/T. In my fairly limited career I have been operating in CTAF/MBZs with Regional airlines such as Impulse/Airnorth/REX and their R/T has been nothing short of exemplary. IMHO. If I was flying inbound and there were lots of aircraft and a few farmer Joe/weekend warrior types then if I was in a Saab per say than I would be making as many calls as is req to get a picture of where these others are before i flew my expensive aircraft and all those lives any closer. (maybe that’s why I'm still a piston/GA scum driver still, hahaha)

[Sunfish]

Actually as a newbie who has yet to solo I have a beginners comment to make. Its obvious that communications should be short, sharp and to the point.

Convoys on ground are just as bad with radio chatter. Maybe formation flyers should work on their voice procedure a little.

However, on another matter I think you need to know who the intended recipient of your message is to maximise the chance you will be understood and minimise the risk that your message will fail to register on another pilot.

Its all right for the experienced pilot to say

"MoorabbinTowercessna310academytwothousandinbound received quebec" as one blurted short word, but the faster and more "professional" the guy sounds the less chance that some of us weekend warriors are going to be able to decode it quickly. Moorrabbin Tower obviously can, but what about the rest of us?

I'd rather make too many calls and get it wrong and slow, and risk the ire of the "professionals" then shutup to avoid making a fool of myself and thereby make a fatal mistake.

[victor two]

That is an excellent point sunfish. Lots of commercial GA guys also blurt out their calls so fast that it makes no sense at all and their haste to get out the message in the shortest possible time just means that nobody understsands it. A total waste of time..... in an unrequired bid to save a extra second of airwave congestion. That makes bugger all sense in Australia where the airwave congestion is almost non existant compared to parts of Europe and the USA. You will hear lots of that as you get out and about too. Take your time, be clear, try and use the correct terms and format and all will be fine. Nobody is sitting there with a stopwatch timing you anyway so why the stupid need to rush calls.

Enjoy your flying!

Vic.

[Aerlik]

is the lack of understanding of short precise radio calls. How many time have you heard people answer a simple question from Tower, such as: "AAA, have you copied traffic?" To which the answer from so-called professionals is almost invariably, "Yes, that is affirmative I have copied ZZZ, AAA". Why don't the fools just say "affirm"/

[druglord]

Nice point sunfish, yeah guys who talk a mile a minute like they're Heathrow approach in the faux deep voice don't benefit too many people out there other than themselves. slow and steady wins the race.

[VRB03KT CAVOK]

Just a quick point of something that you get on Multicom 126.7 that really p*sses me of:

You are in an area where you can receive 4 or 5 aerodromes on 126.7 and you hear:

"ABC, turning base for a full stop"

Nice work d*ckhead. What runway and which aerodrome?

[rearwhelsteer888]

This is unbelievable,
I was at a meeting the other day in relation to the proposed chages to the proposed chages to the the old new airspace,and there was some representitive from the glider pilots association and he got up and made it very clear to all concerned that he thought it was his and his merry mens rights to fly around in controlled airspace with no radio or transponder,now correct me if im wrong but is that not a requirment for all aircraf or what.......
Why the hell doesn't CASA make it harder for these , as you say weekend warriers.They need to get serious and put the people that are out there everyday putting steaks in freezers....First.
RWS888:E

[Obiwan]

Why the hell doesn't CASA make it harder for these , as you say weekend warriers.They need to get serious and put the people that are out there everyday putting steaks in freezers....First.

Don't tar us all with the same brush.

[drshmoo]

Dear "rearwhelsteer888" if someone said that not in jest, may he/she be banished to the nether realms of Wyndham, Balgo ir Ngukurr

[RabidNuts]

Ding...
You seem to be a knight who's lost his shining armour, horse and maybe his sword! If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't!!!

Nice can-o-worms this one... nnnggguuusss!!!

rN

[Wheeler]

Unnecessary calls?

Try certain charter ops in Victor1 - everything from a chat frequency to an official company frequency apparently... and dont dare suggest they might like to think of keeping calls to CTAF business or you'll get some abuse as well.

Try Camden mbz - (or maybe even the tower) "Ahh g'day mate? what colour socks have you got on today?' etc etc

It aint the weekend warriors doing that! Just leave 'em alone, they are generally not the culprits.

[dingo084]

RabidNuts

I don't have a knighthood, I don't have any armour, I can't ride a horse and I haven't carried a sword since 1969.

This is a rumour network so who says you have to be constructive.

Perhaps if you lot didn't take yourselves so seriously and got down of your own high horses, you might actually gain some sort of benefit from pprune. After all, it is NOT a recognised authoritative source of pertinant safety of flight operational information.

I suppose none of you have ever fluffed a radio call in your apparent short aviation careers either.

ding

[JSM]

After all, it is NOT a recognised authoritative source of pertinant safety of flight operational information.



Maybe so, but there are plenty of newbies who read it and take it as Gospel, so maybe we should take RABID NUTS advice and...

If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't!!!

Because you just don't know what sort of effect it may have on someone one day


JSM

[dingo084]

Taking anything one reads on pprune as gospel would have to be the most stupid thing one could do.

So called 'newbies' would be better advised to consult their Chief Flying Instructors rather than give any credence to anything written here.

If you want to use the 'constructive' test then the majority of this thread fails miserably. Most of it is just whinging and whining about everybody else is wrong and the particular poster is the only one who is right/ correct/ smarter/ got the biggest richard thingy etc etc........................

ding

[JSM]

Do you call 15 years in the industry short??
Please let me know your yardstick...

rN

[OpsNormal]

Here we go again.... mine's bigger than yours....:hmm: :yuk:

Give it a rest girls, there was enough prima donna action earlier in the thread. :hmm:

[spam]

I spend a fair amount of time doing transcripts of radio calls in MBZs and CTAFs. Like about two to three hours a day, so think I can comment with some accuracy.....

The organisation that has the most radio calls per arrival and/or departure and the most words per call are, way ahead of the others, the RFDS. Despite a bit of overkill their R/T is impeccable and they are always courteous to all. In fact they often call so high and far out that the same call is recorded by several places!

Then come the charter guys in the C210s etc, not many radio calls relating to position relative to the aerodrome but hours on end of the weather and various other every day things that are incredibly boring or unintelligable cr@p. Such a relief when they finally decide to "go company" to continue their conversation having clogged the freq for the last five minutes. By far the worst to transcribe. You find yourself longing for them to just SHUT UP so others can get a word in!

Helicopters say very little and are almost impossible to understand anyway...

The RPT guys. Impeccable R/T but rather slow in delivery. (Easier to type.)

Least words, most hesitiant but most relevant radio calls are made by the private flights.

Perhaps if pilots realised that everything they say on the radio is recorded and someone has to listen to it all they might "go company" more often! PLEASE!!!!!!

[On Track]

Misuse of the radio is not confined to weekend warriors.

I haven't forgotten the time I flew into Bathurst and couldn't get a word in at all, because the Hazelton guys were using the CTAF as their own company frequency....

[Bevan666]

Perhaps if pilots realised that everything they say on the radio is recorded and someone has to listen to it all they might "go company" more often! PLEASE!!!!!!

Now, I can think of only one reason CTAF's would be recorded, and thats to bill us. I think I'll keep chattering then to make your life as hard as possible.

I'd love to be proven wrong....

Bevan..

[spam]

Go right ahead, "listeners" are paid by the hour, talk as much as you like.

Of course the more you talk, the more the listener costs are per landing heard, so less of your landing fees are available for running costs of the aerodrome, the more of the burden falls onto the ratepayers and the greater the chance of fees being increased. Unless of course there are those with a divine right to use the infrastructure for free :rolleyes: there's always some who think they are!

One aerodrome is mostly RPT, and it's possible to "capture" about 20 landings in half an hour of listening. Another has mostly VFR charter and it can take an hour of listening to sort out the drivel and "capture" 10 landings. The landing fees are the same for both and the infrastructure similar. Which one would you want to be doing the budgets for?

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Yup! spam that would make you a parasite's parasite:D

[Towering Q]

Now I feel a whole lot better about chatting on the MBZ:ok:

[bushy]

Radios are not meant for billing purposes. They are there for safety reasons.

[locusthunter]

Bevan666 and spam - this reminds me of one particular Private Pilot with his own plane who used to come into a particular CTAF and make his callsign _MS - standing for __________ Munipal Council. :mad: :mad:
He saved a fortune in landing fees over some period of time, I believe.

I feel sorry for the poor bu99er who really had the _MS callsign though!!! "Gee I can't remember landing at _________"

[Pseudonymn]

From RabidNuts
posted 16th August 2004 13:44
Ding...
You seem to be a knight who's lost his shining armour, horse and maybe his sword! If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't!!!

Nice can-o-worms this one... nnnggguuusss!!!

rN


From JSM
posted 17th August 2004 07:49


quote:
After all, it is NOT a recognised authoritative source of pertinant safety of flight operational information.



Maybe so, but there are plenty of newbies who read it and take it as Gospel, so maybe we should take RABID NUTS advice and...


quote:
If you don't have anything constructive to say, don't!!!



Because you just don't know what sort of effect it may have on someone one day


JSM


From JSM
posted 17th August 2004 11:20
Do you call 15 years in the industry short??
Please let me know your yardstick...

rN


Did JSM / RabidNuts make a booboo here and forget which ID he/she was using???
Take particular note of the sign off used in each post, then look at the last one. Or is my mind too suspicious??? :} :oh: :}

[Atlas Shrugged]

More out of curiosity than anything, I would be interested in knowing how many pilots make broadcasts when overflying aerodromes outside standard dimensions, ie:

CTAFs above 3000ft AGL / 5NM
MBZs above 5000ft AGL / 15NM

AS

[Hornet_26]

Atlas,

I was taught to call overflying at any height back in 96, I have since learnt from experience that this was not required. I do however listen out on the CTAF/MBZ for traffic awareness. This is what I teach my students now. Not sure why I was taught that way?

Hornet

[JSM]

Rn happened to be over and i was signed on at the time, thats all

JSM

[Sunfish]

I would have thought, absent radio traffic congestion, that the smart thing to do is to adopt the precautionary prinicipal and sing out when it might be relevent.

I'd rather be a live clown with a big mouth talking too much then a dead "professional" (with the greatest of respect) who gave the minimum responses. You can hear my miserable efforts as I try to get it short sweet concise and procedurally correct occasionaly at YMMB.

My main concern is to be understood and ensure that my communications are not ambiguous. Correct voice procedure is an aid to both these objectives, but if I can't get the procedure right (Vector Victor) I'll settle for getting the intentions and instructions understood.

One of these days I'll get it completely right.

[Cougar]

The 2 worst examples i have seen of poor R/T and airmanship were:

1) a Kingair of unknown callsign using the callsign TQM (couple of years ago when QANTAS using rego) in the Rottnest Island area. When asked if he was a QF Dash-8 (the rego was a QF Dash-8 back then) he replied "no mate, but i am not going to pay for landing charges here if i don't have to".

2) a bunch of ultralights at a Western NSW airfield (about 40 aircraft or so) all took off at the same time. RPT inbound and couldn't get a word in edge ways. RPT had to hold for 20 minutes as the ultralights were chatting "oooh mike, look down there, i can see some cows".

[Chronic Snoozer]

Whilst excessive radio calls are definitely undesirable, the art of listenout shouldn't be neglected either in a 'broadcast' environment. Most pilots will make the necessary calls and presume that they're being heard and comprehended, but that is part of airmanship that IS hard to teach because its linked to spare mental capacity. Not everyone airborne is just drilling holes in the sky, pilots' workloads (and capacity to handle that workload) vary and so too their situational awareness.

[maxgrad]

You might think common sense would prevail here.


If in doubt speak out

The use of communication to enhance safety is the thing here

A million calls in the cct or CTAF/MBZ is not communication, it is the exact opposite.

Again...COMMON SENSE needs to prevail