News from Trumpton

[airborne_artist]

From BBCi today:

The Fire Brigades Union said it will ballot for strike action after talks to end a long-running pay dispute broke down without agreement on Monday.

Union leaders had met local authority employers to try to break the deadlock.

But they failed to reach a deal to settle what they say is a 3.5% rise outstanding since November, and a further 4.2% owed since 1 July.

The dispute flared up following a hitch to the agreement that ended a series of strikes in 2002 and 2003.

A deadlock over "stand-down time" during night shifts was broken during negotiations on Thursday.

That related to whether firefighters should have to undertake training or other duties while waiting for a call out.

There was some confusion surrounding the end of talks in central London.

The employers said they ended with the FBU rejecting an offer but the union said its members were still waiting to reconvene and discuss the issue.

Firefighters are taking action because they say that the pay agreement reached after last year's national strike has not been implemented.

-------------

Polish those Green Goddesses!

[Grimweasel]

How they have the front to even moan is beyond me. They are all behaving like hard done by school kids. There are 40 people waiting to fill each vacancy so I am told so sack the lot of them and give the job to someone who will relish it!!

[JessTheDog]

I think this has been largely engineered by Blairites who want a good public sector union scrap before an election and who are peeved at the FBU disaffiliation from Labour.

So, if called upon, we will be political pawns and once more, leave and training will suffer. Only question is, will there be another war at the end of it?

[Ali Barber]

We will have no say in the matter, we'll be manning the pumps. Why don't they do what the Yanks did with the "invincible" civil ATC and sack all those who go on strike. They can train some new people while the green Goddesses are out again. Also give our SACs fireman's pay while they're on call!

[TheBeeKeeper]

Had our Families Day here at sunny RAF $%^&*£$ last week, was really nice to see a Fire Tender and Crew turn up to support our event...... NOT! The cheek of it! Of course not many people were making comments under their breaths as they walked past!

Maybe we should take a Green Goddess round to the station on their Families Day?!?

TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)

[Scud-U-Like]

I think the fireshirkers had it coming. They thought they could hold the Country to ransom and walk away with a nice pay deal, in exchange for a few concessions regarding working practices, which they should have made years ago.

Tough titty. The public now see them as a waste of space and won't support another round of strikes. The Labour Party are hardly going to rally round, since the FBU pulled their £50k pa and the armed forces will get by, like we did last time. I agree: sack 'em and offer a new (strike-free) contract to those who wish to rejoin.

[BoeingMEL]

Hold on a mo guys! Consider the other side too! My close friend is a fire-fighter with the local service (Gloucs) and he takes home each month the princely sum of £1210. His sister is a check-out girl at the local Aldi store and picks up just £22 less.

I am not a fire-fighter (actually I'm not anything any more...) but I know I couldn't cope with some of the incidents they deal with.

Ta bm

[6foottanker]

Just a thought, having a member of the fire brigade in the family.

If they do walk out again, don't honk as you drive past, it only encourages them.
And they're not drinking tea in those mugs.....:*

[You want it when?]

But BoeingMel he choose to be a firefighter, no one forced him into doing it, he has the option to leave at any time. Voting with your feet has always been an option in any role.

I'm not saying they are not worth it, or the role does not deserve additional money but surely no one was lied to at the interview stage about pay and conditions? The rank and file would do better to sack their pathetic union leaders who let them get into this mess.

[airborne_artist]

I was very mildly sympathetic towards them til they started insisting on being able to sleep when in station overnight. Everyone else on nights works their session, but not FBU members it seems. They won't do training, and they won't do maintenance.

Of course, the cynical would say that they need their sleep then so they can do their window cleaning, taxi-driving etc in the day-time....

[WorkingHard]

BoeingMel says
"he takes home each month the princely sum of £1210. His sister is a check-out girl at the local Aldi store and picks up just £22 less."
That may well be true BM but please tell us all what his gross NIable pay is and what tax free benefits are received in addition. Perhaps he could also tell us what are the TOTAL contributions to his pension and what is his share of those contributions. What other perks and subsidies does he receive courtesy of the hard-pressed ratepayers?
Such figures as net pay may be very misleading indeed. For example for all we know he may have an Attachment of Earnings Order against him for £5000 per month. That would severely deplete his net pay!
The point I am making is that such figures are clearly designed to mislead to gain perhaps unwarranted sympathy.

[Mobile Muppet]

BoeingMEL.

The sum of £1210 is still around £210 more than the average SAC that has just come back from four months in Basrah will get for doing HIS duty !!

In fact lads n' lasses dont bother unpacking your kit or seeing the wife and kids, just report to your nearest station..

In my eyes they are all a bunch of t@@sers if they pull another strike after what they did to us just before OP Telic.

[Paracab]

I am not a fire-fighter (actually I'm not anything any more...) but I know I couldn't cope with some of the incidents they deal with.

No, but the firefighters can, which is why they chose the profession. They also knew about the pay and conditions before they joined.

And they're not drinking tea in those mugs.....

During the last strike I was working at a civvy ambo statio behind a fire station. We watched the day shift sitting out the front round their brazier all day, and was surpried when they were still there a couple of hours after shift change, so I wandered over and asked them why.

It was because the night shift were in the pub up the road and the day shift had stayed on to maintain a presence.

During the last strike I was called to an RTA that the green goddesses had also been called to, although (thankfully) it turned out they weren't required, and nor were we.

We returned to station and witnessed the green goddess going past the fire station on its way back to wherever it was based, but not without stopping to deliver a whole load of abuse to the firefighters.

The didn't utter a single word in reply.

I find the strikes disgusting because of the knock on effect they have, and how so many people are stitched up, obviously mainly the army and RAF crews that have to stand in, but also the other emergency services who could be, and occasionally are put in very difficult situations by the strikes.

[BEagle]

Overstretch obviously doesn't exist in the simple mind of fools like BuffHoon:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3533742.stm

Good luck to anyone covering for these miserable shirkers.

[jindabyne]

My window cleaner is a fireman who has a nice 3-year old BMW, upon which he carries his ladders. If a strike happens, he will be told that his services are permanently binned - my neighbours will do likewise. Maybe a Nationwide campaign would have some effect? No day job - none of that nice extra dosh (wonder if they declare those activities to Mr Brown), and no need to sleep on the night shift.

[stuk]

What a lot of spleen is being vented here!
FACT: An agreement was made to settle the last dispute. The employers, no doubt with the connivance of B.Liar have reneged on the deal. It’s not the fault of the firemen that the government is using the forces as a tool to drum up support for a battle. Let’s face it Bliar has had his war, a la Maggie and Falklands, and now he wants a good old fashioned confrontation with a wicked lefty nasty trade union, again a la Maggie and miners, to show what a strong leader he is in the lead up to next year’s elections. As to the idea that the firemen knew the wages/conditions when they signed up and why don’t they leave - well one could say the same for the people whining on these forum. I decided after 30 years of service life that I had had enough, was leaving and so braved the cold commercial world. Of course this comes with having to actually pay into my pension plan, payments which by the way have just doubled, only 4 weeks leave per year, no chance of NHS dentist so paying an arm and a leg for that, working for a firm that could go bust or lose important contracts and leave me without a job, etc. If you lot can’t recognise this confrontation as a device to have a big bad figure to paint Bliar in a good light then you are living in a dream world. If the job of a fireman is so good that they can sleep when on call over a night shift (as I recall many staff doing at Army/RAF bases for example in Ops) and drive a 3 yr old BMW on a window cleaning round then why not join them? By the way, to Jindabyne, why wait until the fireman/window cleaner goes on strike to dispense with his services. The man is obviously a bounder so shop him to DHSS, or would that mean you had to pay the full price to a genuine window cleaning firm?

[Civil Servant]

Errrrr.... I may have missed the point here, stuk, but if he's a working freman and moonlighting as a window cleaner then surely there would be no cause to shop him to the DSS. Unless of course he has two jobs and is claiming as well!!

I did the first fremans strike back in 76 or 77 (memory fades a bit) and remember feeling very bitter at doing a firemans job for considerably less pay than they were already getting. I also well remember the strong arm tactics they employed to try and stop local firms, who had some sort of fire cover of their own, helping us. They threatened to black them after the strike. To cap it all, when the strike was over, they even suggested that we have a joint party to show there were no hard feelings!!!!! I fear they would have "felt" hard pickaxe handles.

I missed my baby son's first steps, first Christmas and New Year with my wife and young family because, as now, the greedy fireman wanted more money for less work and more perks.

Nothing has changed, sack the lot of them, and get some of the people into the job who would welcome the work for the pay offered.

If this seems less than sympathetic, well perhaps my nom de plume will give a clue to that because in another move in the political chess game I may well be out of a job very soon in B.Liars continuing battle to out Tory the Tories.

[stuk]

Civil Serant.
Jindabyne was wondering if the fireman declared the money gained from window cleaning to nice Mr. Brown. He should of course be paying tax on it. Don't want to go off of thread too much but if you buy something "cheapo and under the counter" then you can't complain about the person doing it as you are the cause of it.

[Civil Servant]

Ahhh, yes. That would be the Inland Revenue then, but I accept your point whole heartedly.

CS

[airborne_artist]

From today's Telegraph:

"It is understood that both sides had reached an agreement on the outstanding issues. But sources on the employers' side said last night the deal was scuppered by the FBU's refusal to sign up to a clause that would require firemen working on bank holidays to do more than just answer emergency calls.

Firemen receive double pay and a day off for working a bank holiday. Employers said that the union's stance was the equivalent of nurses refusing to treat anything other than emergencies."

Sheer greed or what?

[jindabyne]

stuk

Not whining, merely having some banter. And I do agree with you that when someone is prepared to pay below the odds for a cheapo job, then it's a bit rich to talk of tax avoidance etc. So I accept the hypocritical inference, and withdraw!

That said, I don't side with your argument that lays it all at Bliar's feet. There is no reason why this current dipute has to resort to strike action in order to see the fireman receive their dues - there are other avenues, according to fireman-chappy in my local.

So, if the t***ers do it again, I will be sacking my window cleaner (who I do pay at the going rate - and he does a good job). If you do get stuck, stuk, then I may have some work for you - you're in my area!

paracab

My son is a paramedic - I applaud your restrained remarks.

[Trumpet_trousers]

...at least 3 Green Godesses seen arriving at a secret airbase in Oxon this a.m........

[Prezza]

So, what do you know about the dispute ?.

Why are the FBU taking action,

What ended the dispute in 2002,

What were Firefighters wages in 1977,

What happened on the 2nd August 2004.

What is the audit commission.

What do you do on Saturdays and Sundays.

What is the difference in Wages between an RAF Firefighter and a Civillian Firefighter.

Did you know all the conditions and wages before you joined the RAF, But have the cheek to moan about our wages and conditions.

What is the Shift systems in the Fire Service.

Before you can spout off you ill informed rubbish, answer the above questions, and then you may see that what you read in the Tory Graph or Scum, isn't the true story. But if you want to believe every word that comes out of Blue Labour ? Then you are very badly mistaken !!!.

Prezza.

[Cloud1971999]

Had our Families Day here at sunny RAF $%^&*£$ last week, was really nice to see a Fire Tender and Crew turn up to support our event...... NOT! The cheek of it! Of course not many people were making comments under their breaths as they walked past!

I fail to see the cheek - I would presume that the organisers of YOUR day asked for the attendance of an appliance. Do you think stations ring around events asking if they can go ?

If you feel that strongly enough to post about it anonomously on a forum, why did you not go and speak to the crew yourself, instead of mumbling under your breath ?

[tokentotty]

Prezza,

Were you planning on anwering any of your questions and enlightening all of the "ill informed" or just having a cry over your computer and a whinge at the people that end up doing your job when you fancy not going to work for a bit?

I suspect that you'll gain little support for your "cause" with an attitude like that.

[Cloud1971999]

That may well be true BM but please tell us all what his gross NIable pay is and what tax free benefits are received in addition. Perhaps he could also tell us what are the TOTAL contributions to his pension and what is his share of those contributions. What other perks and subsidies does he receive courtesy of the hard-pressed ratepayers?

Gross pay as Sub Officer - 26430
Tax free benefits - None
Contribution to pension - 11% (approx £242 a month)
Other perks and subsidies - None

The point I am making is that such figures are clearly designed to mislead to gain perhaps unwarranted sympathy

"Such figures are clearly designed to mislead" :hmm:

And there was me thinking that these figures were actually our pay - didn't realise they had been designed for some ulteriour motive.

Were you planning on anwering any of your questions and enlightening all of the "ill informed"

tokentotty - I\'ll think you\'ll find that he was waiting for some answers from those who have been gobbing off on here, who are quite clearly fully aware of the background to the dispute, hence the questions.

As far as I can see, Prezza is one of the few not crying and whingeing on this thread.

[Prezza]

Not crying behind my computer m8.

All the questions i've asked on that post are things that have been said on all the previous posts on this thread.

Dont believe me ? Go and have a look.

Now, the reason that i put them all together like i have, is you have a list of questions, which comments have been made from individuals here, which are so far off the mark, that if anyone had been playing football, they wouldn't be able to hit a Hanger door !.

Now im not here to rile any of you !. Not here to take the piss. But i know many of you are Forces, and are well pissed off with what could be Operation Fresco 2 ! But one thing i can tell you ? Your not as pissed off as myself and thousands of other Firefighters, Retained, Wholetime and Control operators that we may be facing yet another walk out !

I'm not asking for support ! Wouldn't ask for it and wouldn't expect it !

Now facts is whats missing from here, Feel free to ask anything you want, if i cant answer it straight away, i will hunt the information out and respond asap.

Now im not here to ridicule and abuse anyone for their replies, but i would ask for the same in reply.

Prezza.

[Mikeyd]

QUOTE:

"How they have the front to even moan is beyond me. They are all behaving like hard done by school kids. There are 40 people waiting to fill each vacancy so I am told so sack the lot of them and give the job to someone who will relish it!!"

Well lets get the facts right. OK.

You say 40 people apply for each job advertised. Well the majority of these 40 are usually desperate for a job and assume that the Fire Service will accept anybody. The fact is that of these 40 only apox. 2 people are found to be suitable and are capable of passing the entry requirements. So that figure is pointless.

We have the front to moan because we have a genuine complaint and we are entitled to take industrial action by the freedome given us by the law of this land. The same freedome the forces swear an oath to protect. Unless you want to create a dictator state of course, but then we wil be invaded by the Yanks. Oh and then you can join in and fight against yourself...confusing eh.

Gotta try better than that.

QUOTE:

"We will have no say in the matter, we\'ll be manning the pumps. Why don\'t they do what the Yanks did with the "invincible" civil ATC and sack all those who go on strike. They can train some new people while the green Goddesses are out again. Also give our SACs fireman\'s pay while they\'re on call!"

So you agree with everything the Yanks do, but then that would be illegal wouldn\'t it?

As to getting firemans pay, yeah I\'ve no probem with that, just get your union to negotiate that. Oh I forget, you can\'t be in a union.

Yeah really good ideas there...

QUOTE:

"We returned to station and witnessed the green goddess going past the fire station on its way back to wherever it was based, but not without stopping to deliver a whole load of abuse to the firefighters.

The didn\'t utter a single word in reply."


So who was trying to cause trouble there?

QUOTE:

"My window cleaner is a fireman who has a nice 3-year old BMW, upon which he carries his ladders. If a strike happens, he will be told that his services are permanently binned - my neighbours will do likewise. Maybe a Nationwide campaign would have some effect? No day job - none of that nice extra dosh (wonder if they declare those activities to Mr Brown), and no need to sleep on the night shift."

So, some Firefighters work in their spare time. perfectly legal, many other people choose to earn extra money on their days off. Many teachers work as private tutors in their own time, I know of nurses who work similarly. Many bar staff and Taxi drivers jobs are done by people on their days off from their "real" jobs. Nothing wrong with that. Incidently if you think anyone is "fiddling" report them, that applies to everyone including cheap fags illegaly imported etc. Incidently Firefighters are allowed to do whatever they like in their OWN time. Is that sooo bad.

[DummyRun]

Sorry, thought I'd logged on to the Military bit of the PPrune; it appears I've accidentally got the FBU rant forum. Clicked on a few "profiles" and found little evidence of military pilotage....chaps, why hide!??.

prezza, cloud, tokenetotty,trumpetrews... I you don't wish to do it open forum, PM me:

When the volleyball team goes on strike this time............

unless of course your"e proffessional pilots(sic)!!!!

[Maple 01]

Clicked on a few "profiles" and found little evidence of military pilotage....chaps, why hide!??.

Security is not a dirty word Blackdder......

This forum isn't meant to be the preserve of Mil pilots to the exclusion of everyone else

A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here

The topic of the Fire strike and another Op Fresco is relevant to just about everyone in HM forces likely to be presented with a Green Goddess, a few lads and a bit of training that are suddenly expected to become expert firefighters overnight

I for one would like to know the background to the dispute

[Mikeyd]

Well I'm a full time firefighter, I come here because you want to discuss the fire dispute, being as you seem to want to talk about it and it does concern me. If anyone has a problem, well I'm sorry but that's life. We have many military bods posting on our sites, we dont complain.

[airborne_artist]

Incidently Firefighters are allowed to do whatever they like in their OWN time. Is that sooo bad.

Yes, it could be, as firefighters should be fit to work at 100% when on duty. They are paid to save lives and property in conditions of risk, operating complex equipment with no margin for error. That means they need proper sleep and rest.

The cash earned in the second job could be a tempation to go short on sleep/rest, IMHO.

Look at it this way, Mikeyd: You'd not want to fly off on your hols with a flight crew that had not been properly rested before reporting for duty, would you?

[Paracab]

Mikeyd,

I posted what I witnessed, and in my opinion the army firefighters (!) were venting frustration at having to do a job with inadequate kit, not to mention pay.

I don't think the reasons that firefighters give for being so aggrieved with pay and conditions are justified, but the public vote will tell all.

Andy Gilchrist destroyed your suppport last time round, as you will soon discover for yourselves.

[Mikeyd]

quote:
Incidently Firefighters are allowed to do whatever they like in their OWN time. Is that sooo bad.


Yes, it could be, as firefighters should be fit to work at 100% when on duty. They are paid to save lives and property in conditions of risk, operating complex equipment with no margin for error. That means they need proper sleep and rest.

The cash earned in the second job could be a tempation to go short on sleep/rest, IMHO.

Look at it this way, Mikeyd: You'd not want to fly off on your hols with a flight crew that had not been properly rested before reporting for duty, would you?

REPLY:

I was refering to Firefighters working or otherwise in their own time. If a firefighter wishes to work on his days off, he is allowed to do so providing that he does not work on his last day prior to returning to Fire Service work, thus ensuring he is "fit to work".

I suggest if you are so concerned about tired people in life saving jobs, you would be better directing your concern on trainee doctors, frequently working up to 40 hours on end at your local hospital.

To continue with your idea, are you suggesting people should not do their gardening or decorating in case they are tired when they go to work? Do you think we are not capable of make a sensible choice.

Lets us some common sense please. If you do not know the facts you should not comment.

[Big Cat Handler]

Mikeyd,

With only newspaper reports and what I've read here to rely on, I can't claim any reliable knowledge of the subject, so please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree. You say that fire fighters cannot work on their last day before duty, yet I'm sure I've read about some having day jobs while they're on nights. Obviously that would be against the rules you mentioned, and would prevent getting a good day's rest before the night shift, but does that mean it doesn't happen?

BCH

[Mikeyd]

Quote:

"Mikeyd,

With only newspaper reports and what I've read here to rely on, I can't claim any reliable knowledge of the subject, so please tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree. You say that fire fighters cannot work on their last day before duty, yet I'm sure I've read about some having day jobs while they're on nights. Obviously that would be against the rules you mentioned, and would prevent getting a good day's rest before the night shift, but does that mean it doesn't happen?

BCH"

Sorry for late reply, been busy.

In answer to your question, those are the rules in my brigade. I don't know if anyone breaks the rules, but I'm sure it happens sometimes, but unfortgunately all rules get broken. I know of some military types who work as security staff etc. when on leave, also people selling their cheap NAAFI fags etc. I know it's no excuse but it happens. Unfortunately there are some bad apples everywhere in society, do not tar everyone with the same brush. The vast majority of firefighters I know take their job seriously enough not to turn in for work unfit for duty, our lives and our co-workers lives depend on it. I would not be happy if my oppo wasn't capable enough to drag me out of a fire.

Incidently the RFU part timer strike breakers you all seem to praise have no limitation to the amount of work they can do before turning out to fires in the middle of the night. (possibly knackered after working all day) So please be consistent with your criticism.

[airborne_artist]

Incidently the RFU part timer strike breakers you all seem to praise have no limitation to the amount of work they can do before turning out to fires in the middle of the night. (possibly knackered after working all day) So please be consistent with your criticism.

I know all the crew at my local retained station very well - there's 12 of them, with a minimum of 5 available at any time. The vast majority of their shouts are 0600-2359 - we are close to the M40. They can book off (so long as 5 are still on) if they have need to stand down for any reason, without an explanation required. OK, if they get a shout at 0200 then they've not had a great deal of sleep, but they are primarily a first response asset. If anything big/complex comes along then a/more whole-time crewed tender(s) will be called for by the officer.

Best not to rubbish the retained guys here, I'm afraid, as out in the cuds they are our only chance, and my local crew have made every call for the last ten years, without fail, leaving their station in an average of 5 minutes.

[[email protected]]

When the nurses, who work much longer hours for far less pay, go on strike then I might have some sympathy for firefighters.

I know you've been f***ed over by the Govt and your employers but when all is said and done you get well paid and are well protected from 'employer abuses' like mandatory overtime, chronic understaffing and extra responsibilities without pay.

You put out fires and cut people out of crashed cars - not pleasant work for the squeamish but I'd rather do that than wipe patient's a*ses and mop up vomit, all whilst being abused by violent p*ssheads.

You were led up the garden path by the ambitious Gilchrist and the thought of £30K and had the luxury of knowing the military would try to pick up the pieces when you went on strike. Soldiers who spent months in the Gulf were confined to barracks instead of enjoying well earned leave with their families just because the FBU threatened strike action - how sympathetic do you think they were to your cause?

Barring injury (for which you are well compensated and get a pension) you have a job for life in the Fire Brigade - how many others have that sort of job security?

I suggest you consider yourselves very lucky and just get on with it and stop whinging.

[Mikeyd]

QUOTE"

"When the nurses, who work much longer hours for far less pay, go on strike then I might have some sympathy for firefighters."

Lets get some facts right before we rant, OK.

I accept the "basic" pay of a nurse is lower than the "basic" pay of a firefighter. However a firefighters pay is just that - basic, no unsocial hour pay, no weekend or night allowance. Whereas a nurse is entitled to all those. If a qualified nurse worked the same shifts as a wholetime firefighter (Nights, weekends etc) they would actually be on more money. This is a FACT, check it if you don't beleive it. Also the weekly hours of a firefighter are more than most other occupations. (including a nurse)

I have also had to clean up vomit, got covered in blood and other bodily fluids whilst holding onto a screaming casualty, trapped in a car with bits missing, although I admit I haven't wiped s..t off anyones arse. I have also had violent p*ssheads throwing bricks at me while trying to do my job. So what's your point.

I for one was not lead up a garden path, I didn't honestly think I would get 30K (no intelligant FF thought that). But I was willing to fight for what I thought was right which is exactly what you yourself mentioned "extra responsibility without pay" for years we have taken on many new responsibilities without pay, we were merely asking to be paid for it. I was hoping to get perhaps about 26K.

Regarding "whinging", not me pal, sounds like you are doing the whinging, I am just pointing out some true facts.

Lastly remember the New Labour slogan:

More Teachers, More Nurses, More Police.

What they didn't show was this bit:

Less Firefighters, Less Army, Less RAF, Less Navy.

Traditionally many members of the services looked for a job in the fire services on retirement (In fact they had prefferential treatment on applying), however with less of those jobs in the future, many ex service will be looking elleswhere.

[[email protected]]

Mikeyd - I think that should read 'intelligent FF'.

Do nurses get to sleep on an overnight shift? No!

Do nurses get double time and TOIL for a Bank Holiday? No!

If FF spend such long hours actually working then why do you need recreational facilities at the Station?

Do nurses spend their time at work playing table football or watching Sky? No!

Just how many hours would a nurse have to work to match a FF's pay? And would that nurse still have enough time off to run a second job?

A FF joins to pick up the pieces of accidents and save lives in a hostile environment (and I don't mean when a**holes are throwing bricks etc at you , that is unacceptable). A Nurse joins to mend sick people, not to get threatened and verbally and physically abused but I bet they get a lot more of the latter than your average FF.

What extra responsibilities were you asked to take on? All jobs move on as technology advances and new skills have to be learned to keep pace - why is yours any different?

Your last paragraph sounds like a thinly disguised threat to oppose any ex-servicemen from joining the Fire Brigade in the future.

When the Govt cut as many FF jobs as they have military, then you can moan - more people work for Tesco than are in the Armed Forces!

[airborne_artist]

Traditionally many members of the services looked for a job in the fire services on retirement (In fact they had prefferential treatment on applying), however with less of those jobs in the future, many ex service will be looking elleswhere.

You may not have noticed Miked that HM forces have shrunk by 40%-50% in the past 15 years - while the Fire Service has shrunk by 0%,.

Thus not so many ex-service guys looking for a job, anyway, and just as well, as no fireman ever leaves until it's time to get the index-linked pension.