Logging BE20 Co-Pilot Time

[Merak]

Hi guys,

This might be a dumb question, but I need a bit of guidance. I have a BE20 P1 rating, and am employed as a permanent co-pilot by a ZS operator.

The company captain will permanently occupy the left seat.

My question is , can I and how do I log the time ?? As PIC, or as co-pilot. Many people tell me I cant log the co-pilot time as its a single crew operation....

Are the co-pilot hours worthless to me ??? I dont know !!

Thanks for the help,

Merak

[boyracer]

I would love to know the answer to that as well.The whole p1 p2 issue is also questionable the fact is you have a full rating but with a p2 endorsment on your licence so you can only log co-pilot time. CAA were going to cancell the p1/p2 thing and just give you a rating ,which you have anyway. If I was you get CAA to give you a p1 on your licence, you might have to remind them of there new policy as they really have no clue on there a-holes or elboes.
Please keep me informed as to what they say.

Regards
Boyracer:confused:

Sorry I see you have a p1 rating so you can log command time when it is your leg ie pilot flying and co-pilot time when you are not pilot flying regardless of the seat you are occupying.The only thing is only half of your co-pilot loged time can count to a higher licence. So log it all as PIC.

Regards

Boyracer;)

[Gauteng Pilot]

According to CAA regulation 61.01.16


"A commercial pilot, when acting as co-pilot in aircraft NOT normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 25 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such, towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence: Provided that such pilot is the holder of the appropriate class, type and group type rating"


AND for aircraft requiring a co-pilot

"A commercial pilot, when acting as co-pilot in an aircraft normally required to be operated with a co-pilot, shall be entitled to be credited with not more than 50 per cent of the total flight time during which he or she acted as such, towards the total flight time required for a higher grade pilot licence"




A lot of guys also log full dual hours if the commander is instructor rated on the aircraft, and gives you a bit of instruction during the flight.

[DualDriver]

Gauteng Pilot

I see you refer to Part 61. Part 61 is not yet in affect. I do not know yet when it will come into affect, but not yet.:ok:

[Gauteng Pilot]

Ya but its the only one the CAA have on their website that refers to hours being logged.

I have the old ANR 8.2, but it only refers to private pilots

[Balloothebear]

Guys,even if Part 61 has not been promulgated,it can still be used as a guide to logging the hours.CAA is famous for "Reverse Engineering" when it comes to legal issues.(i.e) First make the "law",print and publish it,then as the Minister of Transport to make it legal ......10 years later.......gotta love em!!
If you still are not happy with the answer,give the lads a call at CAA..........please hold......eish he's not here now........call back tomorrow.....;)

[Kopeloi]

Its very simple. Log 100% as P2 time . Out of these hours you can then use 25% towards to higher grade licence if the type is single pilot or 50% if multi crew aircraft.
Nikolai

[mercman]

Hi there Guys !

The way I see it is that if you have P1 rating and the other crew member also has a P1 rating then you could fly leg for leg and log PIC but this would only be possible if the company allows it or should I say if there are two company captains flying the aircraft.

If you have a P2 rating and fly as a co-pilot then you are entitled to log co-pilot time and if you have a P1 rating and fly as a copilot you can log P2 time I dont see why not because if the company are not going to let you fly as a P1 just yet wich might just be an insurance problem you somehow have to log hours to get the company requirement to fly as a P1. As far as I know if a company employs you as a co-pilot they will give you a P2 rating but some will just disagree and say lets give a P1 rating because there is not much of a difference with regard to the rating and then they save money but I am sure this is only an exception, but for the company you would still have to do a command upgrade although you are capable of flying as a captain.

The other point I would like to bring your attention to is part 135 Subpart 2 , Flight crew, Composition of flight crew:

"(1) The minimum number and composition of the flight crew shall not be less than the minimum number and composition specified in the aeroplane flight manual...."

"(1) The operator of a small commercial air transport aeroplane shall allocate additional flight crew members when it is required by the type of operation, and the number of such additional flight crew shall not be less than the number specified in the operations manual...." this is up to the company, what does your companys ops manual say ?

(3) This one is self explanotory about competency, licences and ratings. so is (4), (5) .

"(6) For operations under IFR or by night in a small commercial air transport turbo-propeller or turbojet aeroplane, an OPERATOR SHALL ENSURE THAT THE MINIMUM FLIGHT CREW IS TWO PILOTS : provided that in the case of a turbojet aeroplane, a single-pilot operation is allowed ....." then it goes on about aeroplane certification for single pilot operation ...etc...etc.

So I assume if you are flying a BE20 for a Lanseria operator you would be operating under part 135 you have a rating you may by law fly as a P1 but as you know the companys operation manual can be equal to or more stricter than the state requirement.

Also ask your chief pilot or your chief training captain for some advise on this one.

I have a P2 rating on the BE20 and for now I fly from the right so I log P2 time ! Otherwise how must I get hours ? How must you get hours ? is maybe the question you should be asking!

Well I hope I have made it a little clearer to you good luck !!
:ok:

[August]

I believe that only the ACTUAL captain may log the time as P1. The first officer (regardles of rating or who is steering the thing) logs P2 time. Then, when totalling your flight time in application for a higher licence or rating, you may use only 25% of that P2 time towards the new licence.

[Kopeloi]

Exactly, and the P1 is the pilot marked in FPL as pilot in command.
You log P2 time as long as someone else is marked in FPL as PIC, doesn´t matter if you have P1 or P2 rating in your licence.
Nikolai

[Duff Man SA]

As I understand it, Kopeloi and August are spot on. If you do a 10hr flight in the right seat, you put down 10hrs in your logbook. When applying for your ATP, you can only use 2.5 hrs of those hours towards the ATP req.

[Bravo190]

yup, agree!

you log where you sit, 25% to ATP, less than 12500lbs. same prob as C208b ops.

[Jelly Doughnut]

Hello Merak

I have more than 1600 hours on the BE20, flying for a South African operator on contract in Africa. I understand the CAA require 2 pilots for all aircraft operating under IFR and configured to carry more than 9 pax.

We always flew under IFR and carried 10 pax... in addition our client (UN) required 2-crew operation. Initially I only had a P2 rating so had to log it all as P2. Once I got the P1 rating, I logged P1 leg-for-leg, whenever I was the flying pilot. (in practice I split the total time for each day, half P1 and half P2).

So I have more than 400 hours logged as P1 on the BE20, even though I was never actually a captain. The SA CAA were happy to accept this when they issued me with my ATPL, counting ALL of the Dual time, ALL of the P1 time, and HALF of the P2 time.

Out of interest - in the UK this would be called PICUS - "Pilot in command under supervision". Can by logged by a co-pilot whenever he's pilot flying, and those hours can be used for a higher license or promotion where P1 time is needed.

The UK CAA also happily accepted the hours when they issued my JAA ATPL but they did require a letter from the operator stating that our operation was a proper 2-crew one.

Hope this helps
JD

[prospector]

Jelly Doughnut,
Those 400 hours in the right seat logged as P1, What does the Capt log them as?? Do you have two P1's??

In our system, right hand seat time can be logged as command practice time, but only if the P1 has been approved by the Company or CAA to give command practice.

Our regs also state that one pilot must be designated by the company as command pilot.

It would appear from your post that the SACAA and UK CAA accept that an aeroplane can have two captains on a flight. Is this what you are saying has happened?? Who then carries the can if any regs are broken or incident or accident occurs?

Prospector

[Solid Rust Twotter]

Had a F/O who used to log his time in right seat as command. Also logged 30 sec at a time ducking through cloud as IF time.......

Go figure:ok:

[August]

So Jelly Doughnut, what you're saying is that all those BA, SAA, Cathay first officers (with P1 ratings) should be logging their PF legs as P1 and their PNF sectors as P2...? What's more, I'm now guessing that the captain should be doing the same since it is not possible to have two P1's at a time...?

I suggest that if you sit down and read the applicable SA reg's, you'll find that you may have gotten away with something not quite kosher. Remember, there is no PICUS in the SA reg's.

[4HolerPoler]

What a great thread! Now the fat is in the fire - always a great point of debate & IMHO August has hit the nail on the head; with PICUS you can log P1 under certain circumstances but without it there's no way I can see that you can log P1 time unless you're a rated P1 with a command endorsement from your company.

The matter of two P1's is another point of issue - often crops up in the airlines. On a long-haul flight where there's two crews (2 Captains & 2 F/O's) how do you log the time? Some regulatory authorities only allow you to log the time in the cockpit but in my experience they're often the authorities in bed with the airline & applying this policy in an effort to have greater utilization from the crews. There are other cases where if you're a rated commander, as crew on board, you log P1 regardless. Which leads to another issue - how do you log P1 time if you're in LaLa land in the bunk? There have been cases where (once again in an effort to maximise crew availabilty) the airlines ruled that you couldn't log P1 time in the bunk. Then they had a problem that there wasn't a rated P1 on the flightdeck. So they started dishing out P1 (nudge, nudge, wink, wink) ratings to the F/O's.

I know the above is not about the BE20 issue but they're all inter-related.

Always a great debate. Carry on.

4HP

[Zoltan]

Hi All,

As far as I know theres no mention anywhere that the commander of the A/C has to sit in the left seat. So if both pilots have P1 ratings and the company designated Capt. ( and the company of course) is happy to log the leg which you are flying from the right, as P2 theres no reason you cant log your leg as P1.

Good luck finding a Capt. willing to do this though ( not even mentioning the company !!)

Fly safe

Bubblewrap

[FlyOff]

I still unclear on some of the time logging issues, I understand the 100%, 50%, and 25% contibution to higher licence, what I dont understand is where to log in in a approved SACAA logbook when flying a single i.e 208, PCXIII etc.

The logbook only makes provision for FO time under twins and not singles.

[skyvan]

Don't forget that the SA-CAA do not have a rating such as co-pilot only. They have only 3 ratings...P1 (pilot-in command), PI (pilot-instructor) and P1 Restricted ( what the relief pilots get).

So if you are flying a multi-crew aircraft, the operator should specify who is the PIC for the flight, and the other pilot should log P2 time.

Of course, who is likely to check with your previous employers as to which legs you were P1 or P2.

Of course, the cadet pilots will have a bit more of a problem, as records of all their flying is recorded.