What's happening at MD Helicopters?

[Head Turner]

What's happening at the MD factory? Are they still making the 600 and 900? Are spares readily available.?
One doesn't hear much about them anymore.

[ppheli]

Hmm... funny you should ask... unattributable story doing the rounds at Farnborough was a debt ratio of 450%. :eek: Perhaps waiting on the possibly feasible big MH-6 order, but how much profit to be made there? How much longer can RDM support it?

What's happening to the 900 line - should we ask about the Dutch Police order....? Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?

And 600s - they were saying the Turkish guys were going to get theirs, but no trumpeting of any deliveries (and boy, do they need to polish that trumpet, it's not had much use in ages)

Then their own back yard ex-friendly law enforcement unit goes and buys from another manufacturer for the first time ever!

Would be sad to see them go, but how much is the NOTAR trademark worth?

[Head Turner]

Is MD standing in the dinosaur queue?

One doesn't like to see helicopter manufacturers go out of business because the product support fails with it.

So what is the biggest failing of the MD product?

I think that the interest in the 145 is due to the fact that the 145 must be the answer to police/ems situation as the other small twins are really not up to the police/ems tasks.The 135/900/109 are the best there was, now I see it that the 145/109S are the likely replacements for these old models.

[PANews]

MD Helicopters announced the delivery of a couple of MD600Ns to Turkey at the recent ALEA Annual conference at Charleston.

There are three show dailies in pdf format to be downloaded from the Home Page of www.alea.org - one of which mentions it.

Other than that I am unaware of a press release specific to these deliveries.

Must ask!

[PANews]

I did ask and the reply came pretty briskly. It seems odd they did not shout about it - but at HAI they mentioned the delivery was due [along with a few others that have NOT appeared] so perhaps they thought enough was enough.

Turkish National Police Take Delivery of 2 MD 600N Helicopters
CHARLOTTE, N.C., July 21, 2004 — MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) opened its sixth appearance at the Airborne Law Enforcement Association (ALEA) convention with good news — a two-helicopter delivery.
Turkish National Police (TNP) have taken delivery of two MD 600Ns for airborne law enforcement. The helicopters are currently operating in Turkey. Eight more MD 600Ns will be delivered to the TNP in 2004.
The helicopters are equipped with moving map global positioning systems, secure voice systems, television cameras, forward looking infrared, wire strike protection and searchlights.
The TNP, the principal civil agency devoted to security and law enforcement in Turkey, selected the MD 600N after a thorough evaluation and technical review of four single-engine helicopters. The helicopters will handle a variety of police missions for the nation, with air support bases in Adana, Diyarbakir, Golbasi, Istanbul, and Eskisehir. Missions will include search and rescue, surveillance, SWAT, drug interdiction, patrol, pursuit, and VIP transport.
Fifty-seven MD 600Ns have accumulated more than 70,000 hours since the first aircraft were delivered in 1997.
MDHI began an aggressive program to improve the MD 600N shortly after acquiring the commercial light helicopter product line from The Boeing Company in 1999. The addition of a number of improvements, including a Yaw Stability Augmentation System (Y-SAS) have enhanced the handling characteristics of the aircraft.
The seven-to-eight-place, single-engine MD 600N tackles multiple missions with high performance and low direct operating costs. Known for its versatile, spacious interior, the MD 600N is the choice of utility operators, airborne law enforcers and other discriminating buyers. Standard equipment includes the NOTAR anti-torque system and FADEC engine control.

........

The 600 never really recovered from being rejected by both the Border Patrol and LA County Sheriff.

[SilsoeSid]

Why do I get the feeling of a hidden agenda here?

Has someone been asked to enquire about future purchases for their new up and coming unit and would like most up to date hardware, not one of the options given to them?

902/135/109 not up to the job? ..........Really!?

Everyone has their opinion on type, but to say that all these types aren't up to the job, is a bit much to say the least.
What is the benefit of a larger aircraft?

In the US they use Robinsons/350s to get the job done.
Here in the UK we use small twins to do the job, because we have to use twins.
What is the justification in using a larger twin?
The ability to carry more casualties? Stop, Arrest and Transport criminals to the nick?

Sorry, doesn't make sense to me.
Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?
Ok, name them.
I know of no interest except from London Hems who are looking at all types available as you would expect.

Cynical old me thinks that this is some sort of attempt at getting a 145 into the market place by slagging off the rest. More than likely by someone who has probably not flown all of the 3 types mentioned earlier in role.

It would be interesting to know if anyone from Eurocopter or McAlpine management are on this thread. :ok:

Of course all IMHO ;)

[PANews]

Size matters.

And politics of course.

This is nothing to do with American practice. They use the 350 because they are allowed to. They are also allowed to carry part of a firearms team externally if they choose to. CAA would have kittens. However it should be noted that the number of twins being ordered over there is rising. In general the R44 fleet is a small township patrol craft circling a town the size of Coventry in dizzy circles. Not quite UKP ideas of operations.

It seems that in some [most] cases the original spec. for upgrading to the 900/135/109 required a capability of carrying a firearms team. No-one was really too bothered when most of the current fleet were ordered but 9-11 has made someone pay more attention to the problem. Not necessarily leading to again upping the size of the final choice for each of the trio is going upward to 3,000kg anyway.

It is a matter of argument but all of them failed to carry enough bodies for said firearms team. All could carry a section of officers but not enough far enough etc. Two/three in a firearms team is not really worth bothering with on scene. Five or six makes more sense. Currently he only UKP helicopter with that capability is the Devon & Cornwall BK117.

Of the others the 355 was pointless, but the 900 was undoubtedly the best by far and just about covered the base requirement. Unfortunately it had this little spares/support problem that results in unacceptable downtime. Result is that they might decide to look at an alternative type. Not the 109 or the 135 for obvious political reasons [already rejected being one].

The 135 was nearly there but headroom at the back was an issue and of course climbing the stairs [the high skids] presented its own problems in a Health and Safety point of view.

109 similar [or worse] height/volume of cabin problem.

So that leaves the 145 [and the EH101 I guess!] so this is where they are looking and I will not seek to prejudge the issue.

Politics is a major issue with all this. It would not be 'sensible' for an officer directly involved in ordering one type to be so connected to the purchase of an alternative type that was on the original list. So either there has to be a change of hierarchy or a change of airframe - or both.

I do not think McAlpine have anyone on Pprune these days, but I am not sure.

[Jack Carson]

Even the Phoenix Police are trading in there MD-500's for A-109's. This is a shock since the MD factory is in their back yard.

[NickLappos]

I've been to two goat ropings and a world's fair, but I still never figured I see Jack carson on prune!! How's it going, Jack?

[PANews]

A comment on Jack's item on the A109 for Phoenix.

As I read it that acquisition does not seem to suggest they are replacing their MD520N fleet with the Power. This is a new SAR requirement with the local fire department.

If anything though it does suggest that Phoenix have rejected the Explorer.

Some further thoughts on the potential of the EC145 that came to mind overnight relate to accomodation. I suspect that 'Grandfather Rights' will make it work but, if it is assumed that sticking a firearms team in an EC145 will require them to all have JAR stroking/crashworthy seats I think it will not work if they are over 6 feet [1.9M] tall. If they sit 'on the floor' it should work.

In the Euro environment this could not work in a 135 because it is pure JAR27 and [as I understand it] stroking seats for all aboard are required. Vive la BK117C2.........

Anyone want to insert the Bell 427 and the AB139 into the assessment?

[SilsoeSid]

In general the R44 fleet is a small township patrol craft circling a town the size of Coventry in dizzy circles. Not quite UKP ideas of operations.
Thats quite a big town, namely a city, and if anyone was to care to look at a map, they will see how big this town really is! Point is, here a twin has to be used in that environment.

Anyway, Firearms teams;

What do you expect to carry? Notice carry, as any expenditure of munitions is forbidden. (PAOM Pt 1)

Obviously PAOM part 2 's differ from unit to unit, but I doubt that simply the number of arms allowed to be carried on any one flight are excessive enough to warrant a large aircraft.

How many people do you need to carry? Just yesterday we were flying 6 pob with flight times in excess of 30 mins +25 Cel. Plenty long enough to reach the edge of the force area and back and some.
Looking at todays figures, by taking the Ops console out to fit in the extra seat, I could carry 6 in the back (tot 7 pob),all with stroking seats, and have a flying time of 40 minutes. In addition to carrying normal a/c stores.

Maybe the problems will start when the team requires the other equipment, ladders hydraulic rigs, etc etc. But I'm sure there would be time for a couple of round trips if that was the case!

A bit of flight planning goes a long way. (Then again I accept no planning survives contact with the enemy!)

p.s. It also suggests that Phoenix rejected the 135/145 etc, plus, I didn't realise that units had to buy from their nearest manufacturer. :p

[PANews]

Please note I wrote 'In general the R44 fleet ..........'

Perhaps Coventry was a bad choice. US cities may be 'small' but they use a lot of land.... Something very much smaller than Coventry is what I was really alluding to. Populations of some R44 users are in the 100,000 class but can be spread - or joined to neighbours. Either way I guess you would get pretty bored buzzing your 900 around such a place.

[SilsoeSid]

PAN,

Perhaps if you have over estimated the size of the town, you have over estimated the size of helicopter needed to police it. :=

If a force area was the size of a town like, lets say Rugby (pop 62,000), then it probably wouldn't be able to afford even a Robinson. If that was the case, the whole town could be cordoned off after every incident and the force microlight could be called in. ;)

Either way I guess you would get pretty bored buzzing your 900 around such a place.Nah!! didn't yesterday. :ok:

[PANews]

[As you are undoubtedly aware] There has been a resolute UK faction out there who promote singles [even the R44] for looking after the big bits of the job that do not require a twin. Panda car stuff. Maybe they would need to stand-off the town centre robbery and 'peer' in electronically but many Uk towns would stand that easily. I suspect that air support in the wastes of Scotland [what little there is] relies on PLM 350 singles far more than the news tells us.

Its all about money of course.... I wonder at how these tiny US cities [often just small towns] can afford to run their own air support.

The main reasons are obvious of course, everything comes a lot cheaper .... the fuel in particular .... and of course all those OH-58s.... volunteer pilots ...... all the things the CAA wrings its hands about.

[Jack Carson]

Not bad. One of our crewmen a "Brit" tipped me off to this site. It is head and shoulders above Just Helicopters. I am working on a "you won't believe this" 53 project. We have 2 CH-53D's that we are retro-fitting with internal tanks for fire fighting. I will deliver the first aircraft from Tucson to San Bernardino in about two weeks. We hope to be up and running for next year's season. In the mean time I am flyiing "Sikorsky" not Erickson cranes. Great Machines.

Congradulations on the Canadian deal. I hope it sticks.
Jack

[SASless]

PANews...

Your comment about HSE concerns over "climbing the steps" hit a nerve...I just left an outfit that was involved in protecting a very sensitive nuclear facility....and continually degraded our abilities to perform the mission based upon HSE concerns.

Now I ask you...if you are sending armed officers into a situation where they are quite likely to kill or be killed in close combat with an armed hostile gunman or gunmen (oh, sorry....gun persons)...why can we not accept the fact some of the less than twinkle toed of the bunch might stub a toe or twist an ankle either in training or while performing the mission?

Am I missing something here? To quote a very well known US SpecOps commander...."We ain't making cornflakes here!"

[Head Turner]

Is this thread going off at a tangent?

Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.

We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order, poor spares reports, upgrades etc.

[PANews]

Is this thread going off at a tangent?

Yes!


Subject heading is about what's happening at MD.

I think that was covered in the first post! Notalot.


We hear all sorts of things, like lots of 900's on order.....

MD have been claiming lots of 900s on order ..... forever ... and in truth there are those elusive 'big' orders out there.

The FBI are having 50, or was it 100, but they have not ordered them. As far as I am aware they have one and are ordering more [subject to liking what they have?] piecemeal.

We have been here before with the Border Patrol MD600N fleet. It never reached the figure claimed before they switched to buying the AS350.... they had simply not ordered that number claimed - it seems MD were counting the options to boost the numbers. You can do that if most times when the options are delivered but unluckily for MD in most instances the options are not being taken up. A result is damage to perception.

Real delivered 900 orders are stuck around 100 [c/n up to about 120 but lots of test airframes etc] and the log jam has yet to be cleared.


poor spares reports, upgrades etc......

Spares require investment and MD is very short of cash. 900s break as often as the other airframes [well maybe a bit more often] but a lack of spares means that the customer is grounded whilst they are sourced, paid for and delivered. Any problems that other manufacturers might throw money at to solve tend to remain problems because there is no money to throw at them so some faults tend to reappear.

This takes us to the upgrade.... secret territory really, who knows what is really going on! All we know the weight upgrade upon which the Netherlands Police aircraft rely [8 airframes on order] is still not getting there [yet]. I suspect it is again the lack of money that means there are insufficient tech resources. It can be done - the 135 and 109S prove that - but EC and AW have money and people.


Salvation for MDs money worries may lie in the US Army Little Bird contract... but that is 2007.... lots of days till then.


On the earlier comment about Phoenix buying AW rather than MD ... it is not that they have to buy its just that political pressure would tend to require a 'home' buy .... There is probaly a link between MD being local and the fact that the largest MD920N fleet in law enforcement is in Arizona....

The fact that this political pressure did not happen this time may well be technical ......... but is it?

Enough?

[HeliEng]

Where do MD go from here? They have filed for Section 11 (Or whatever it's called) saying they have no money, so now the creditors can't file bankruptcy on them, but what now?

There were rumours of Boeing coming back in and sorting it all out, but it's gone a bit quiet on that too.

They don't really have the spares for the 600 and 900, and it is a case of hurry up and wait for them when you do get a response.

The guys at the factory must be worried about their job security surely, but it won't all just disappear, will it???

[John Bicker]

Another issue affecting them is that as they have not supported the 369HS and D/E with spares so you can buy just about anything for these ships aftermarket and most people do!

There is also evidently a gap in the production numbers for the 900 that don't actually exist and it is quite a large number.

[SilsoeSid]

Was going to carry it on, but it seems the answers have been given;

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

No other companies have spares problems and technical problems are very rare.

Now the best of all, lets start a rumour about this mysterious Sect 11. No doubt something exteremely vague, posted in the hope that it will change a few purchasing minds out there. Even better when we can add in the b word and the old job security little gem!

Open industrial espionage as its most transparent.

[Notar fan]

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

Thank you SilsoeSid. I was beginning to think that I was being paronoid. PANews wants the whole world to be driving EC's, no matter what model.

Chapter 11 is just a rumour....for now:E

I think the City of Phoenix deal was more a vote against MD, than for Agusta. I wonder if they realise that they will be grounded most of the summer when the temps hit 110F most days. Kind of negates the fact the bought the aircraft for some use as a fire fighting tool, when you can't fly much during fire season.:confused:

[ppheli]

Kaman have just released their quarterly numbers, and as usual (well, for at least the last 4 quarters), they have been forced by accounting standards, or their CPAs, or both, to make a statement on their MD contract. Note the last sentence in bold

--snip--
Helicopter subcontract work involves commercial and military helicopter programs. Commercial programs include multi-year contracts for production of fuselages for the MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI) 500 and 600 series helicopters and composite rotor blades for the MD Explorer helicopter. Total orders from MDHI have run at significantly lower rates than originally anticipated due to lower than expected demand. The company's investment in these contracts consists principally of $4.2 million in billed receivables and $16.2 million in recoverable costs-not billed, including start-up costs and other program expenditures, as of June 30, 2004. To date in 2004, the company has received only nominal payments. The recoverability of unbilled costs will depend to a significant extent upon MDHI's future requirements through 2013, the year to which both contracts extend. The company stopped production on these contracts in the second quarter of 2003, but continues to work closely with the customer to resolve overall payment issues and establish conditions under which production could be resumed, including the timing thereof. Management believes that some progress has been made in this regard. Based upon MDHI's projected future requirements and inventory on hand at both MDHI and the company, resumption of production would not be expected to occur until late in 2004 at the earliest. Although the outcome is not certain, the company understands from MDHI management that it is close to executing its strategy to improve current financial and operational circumstances.
--snip--

[PANews]

________________________________
Was going to carry it on, but it seems the answers have been given;

PANews doesn't like MD, he wants everyone to have 145s which are too big, for police ops, IMVHO.

No other companies have spares problems and technical problems are very rare.

Now the best of all, lets start a rumour about this mysterious Sect 11. No doubt something exteremely vague, posted in the hope that it will change a few purchasing minds out there. Even better when we can add in the b word and the old job security little gem!

Open industrial espionage as its most transparent.
_______________________________

Well I am surprised that that little tirade did not arrive before!

'PANews doen't like MD....' is the usual kick I get from employees of the PAS/MD/RDM team* .... but it actually defies the truth. So we all think we know who I work for .... who pays your wages Silsoe? Can we see the Wood' in the PAS trees?

So tell me which detail of the material I posted here was incorrect [and why] and I might take a little more notice.

As for me 'selling' the 145/BK117C2 I thought that there was some criticism in there too .... Are you blind to what you do not wish to see? The 145 is big but someone appears to see them as an option. Perhaps you think that they are all going to Oxford because they read my PANews.......... thanks for the pat on the back but I think you are bonkers!

It is not my decision what units may look at let alone buy .... in theory there is no market for the 145 in the Uk but plenty of operators are looking at it. Some of them currently fly the same aircraft you fly. Do you have a vested interest perhaps?

Well come on then tell us that there is no problem with the MD product or its support .... we all want to hear that from an expert. I have already stated that in my opinion the problems are not the problems but the lack of MD cashflow to throw at the problems.

Section 11? No its called Chapter 11..... and it is a protective measure for US based companies in trouble and ... as yet ... I have seen nothing to make me believe it. If MD were going that way they would have filed it months ago Mark.

Are you attacking John Bicker as well? Maybe he is biased? He says there are spares problems with 500s..... what do you know about 500 spares?

Maybe 'Notar Fan' will join in, he was looking in earlier.... but he fits the team* bill so I may be in for a two cornered attack any time now......

Good night, fly safe.

[SilsoeSid]

PANews,

Thanks for eventually saying it was just your opinion, for a moment there I thought this was authoritative information on this thread.

"The 145 is big but someone appears to see them as an option."

I think that you'll find that this is probably not for police work and the "plenty of people looking at it" have been invited down on a freebie! Haven't you?

Also, to buy such a large aircraft for the few/rare occasions that it may be needed to carry your 6 man firearms team must be asking for closer scrutiny.

Earlier, the EH101 was mentioned, in PANews's scenario this would be the size of aircraft needed to carry 6 armed officers with associated armoury, ladders, hydraulic rigs, ropes, spotting equipment, radios and their lunch bags!
(Jeez, it was bad enough trying to carry a section of 6 in light order with a Lynx, even in winter.)

During a normal set of duties, I'm sure few of us would like to upset the decent law abiding population, by looking for a person in a back garden in the early hours of the morning with a craft as big as this, for the sake of a thermal camera, just incase firearms need moving about.
As for an urban pursuit.......have a laugh. :D

Despite your claim, I am no expert, but as a user, I personally have no problem with the product. (I hope that's clear.)

Hope you slept well,
Take care.

[Eurobolkow]

In the thread on the new 109S, PA News does pay the 900 the compliment of saying that it has the best cabin height of the types currently in use by the Police Authorities.

However it is clear from some high profile AOG situations last year that there is a support issue (or at the very least a percieved issue) with the 900 which is causing problems. Would anyone care to enlighten us?

Maybe I need to start a new thread to ask this question but does anyone know the vitals on the 145? How is it different to the 117 or is it just the usual Eurocopter clever rebranding??

[SilsoeSid]

Just a quick google search took me here http://www.eurocopter.com/ec145/index.html

Is this what PANews had in mind for the UK Police units?

Quote: "Police missions and law enforcement tasks."

http://www.eurocopter.com/ec145/img/parapublic.jpg

This sort of stuff is very rarely done in the military, and even then with a lot of planning/briefings and qualified despatchers/despatchees to keep current.
So to justify all this malarky is going to take a lot more spin from PAN than we've already had.

Quote; "View of the cabin, equipped with 2 x 3 troop seats."

Unfortunately, no stroking seats :ugh:

http://www.eurocopter.com/ec145/img/parapub2.jpg

Now the EMS is a different kettle of fish.

ppheli;Should we ask why every UK police operator of the 900 (bar one) is currently showing at least some interest in the EC145?
(note: UK POLICE operator)

I challenge you to name them, or at least the one who isn't, because I don't believe you in the way you have written it.

(As I have said earlier, you have probably based this statement on the fact that the freebie invites are going around for UK police operators to see the 145.)

[Thomas coupling]

In light of the subject thread (MD teetering?)(excuse the pun)- the UK police are about to see the next replacement programme ignite as the 'old' (135/902) units look to purchase new helos.
The whisperings about MD, at the very least, must have an impact on decision makers, especially if those people (UEO's) can influence the procurement panel / authority. These are 'relative' lay persons who might, just might, be swayed by gossip/innuendo/rumour. This could lead them up a blind alley if they are not careful.
I hope for everyones sake, MD weather this current storm to emerge fresh and competitive, as the last thing we need is to find that there is NO competition - where would that get us???

The Home Office might decide for us anyway and we could all end up buying/leasing from a fleet of 45 Bell lights!!!!!! :E

It is up to the end users to make sure they are properly informed so that the next generation helo is suitable for the job and not for the politicians:ooh:

Good luck to MD.................................

[HeliEng]

PANews,

I knew someone would have to pick holes! Thanks!!! :rolleyes:

diethelm,

It must have been about a month ago we were told that they had, and as far as we are concerned, it came from official sources. :confused: :confused:

[PANews]

Hmph!

So what we are saying is that I cannot report news items sent to me and that I cannot assess the material [because MD say so].

Manufacturers other than MD cannot entertain potential purchasers, show them the product and fly them in it?

That as a member of the dreaded press I cannot be shown and flown by EC or AW but I can by MD [only if I like the product]?

... and then of course if I do say nice things about MD products and nasty things about EC products that is also not acceptable...

Well, that's a toughie!

I had better sleep on that again!

[Rich Lee]

Only the management really knows the true situation at MD Helicopters and they have, understandably, circled the wagons. There has been no reliable information coming out of the company for several months - just promises and optimistic forecasts.

The latest rumors are that they are in trouble with the FAA for some serious violations of regulation and they are having touble with a bridge loan. Haven't heard about a bankruptcy and although there has been a number of people leave the company, I have not heard of wholesale lay-offs.

Diethelm is probably the most reliable source outside of the company of what is occuring within MDHI.

[cyclicfriction]

Rich Lee,
A lot of the more recent information leaks across to MD from your side of the tracks...can't believe you don't know more that you say.

As Diethelm says, rumours of the bankruptcy are just that. There a lot of people out there that would love to see the demise of MD, just because of a few management individuals. Lets hope the product survives them. The last few years are a testiment to the product. MD would be long gone if they were manufacturing something else. The product will prevail, of that there is no doubt. The days of "promises and optimistic forecasts" are at their twilight hour. New finance will bring accountability and oversight.

The rumour of "trouble with the FAA" seems also unfounded. The "surprise" audits seems to have yeilded nothing unusual, probably to the annoyance of those that initiated it.
:D

[Rich Lee]

cyclicfriction A lot of the more recent information leaks across to MD from your side of the tracks If the direction of the information flow is from Boeing to MD Helicopters, something is very, very wrong.

[PANews]

If we are entering the realms of rumour wholesale, it is said that Bell retain an interest in the MD carcass. You may recall that they were an original bidder for the company when Boeing were divesting themselves but were told they could not 'play.'

Whether they would really still have an interest after all this time I really do not know - and as the two MD posters say I cannot write specifically about their product I will speculate no further!

_____________________
Only the management really knows the true situation at MD Helicopters and they have, understandably, circled the wagons.
_____________________

Oh, you mean Notar Fan then?

[HeliMark]

One problem they have is in sales. Ask them to demo a full touchdown auto (600). They will refuse. EC puts a big smile on, and asks if you want to do it at max gross (350).

MD has to do something as their police market base is going away in a hurry.

[Hover Bovver]

Helimark,

They did when we asked !

The thing that everyone misses is that the MD600 is not suited to the sort of work the police/border patrol wanted to do ie. slow flight and out of trim,however it is a super smooth machine and loves flying fast- sub 20 knots it doesnt!

[metric]

Having crawled around an Ec145 with a tape measure and an SF guy, I have little doubt that even with the regular crash-worthy seats you can transport armed troops. The question is what do you want to do? The French SF guys are happy to use the EC145 and abseil and rapid rope from theirs. If you want to winch .... no issues...port or starboard so the choice is yours. I'm a BK117C1 fan and the C2 simply makes a great ship better....and what a view!

METRIC:ok:

[Rich Lee]

HeliMark Ask them to demo a full touchdown auto (600). They will refuse. I believe that this has less to do with the aircraft than some internal MD Helicopters policy. The aircraft is fully capable of doing touchdown autorotations at gross weight. I myself have performed hundreds at all weights in test, training and demonstration. I don't know all of the pilots who work for MD, but the ones I do know can demonstrate touchdown autorotations at any weight. As an interesting note, at one time Eurocopter would refuse to demonstrate touchdown autorotations.
I understand your reasoning. Bell once made a policy decision to refuse to demonstrate touchdown autorotations in Mexico City. I amazed customers in Mexico City by allowing the customers themselves to perform gross weight touchdown autorotations. Bell had refused to demonstrate at that altitude even though the aircraft and pilots could most certainly do it. The customers had come to the false conclusion that policy was equivalent to performance. The outcome was McDonnell Douglas made the sale. Perhaps MD Helicopters should reconsider their policy to meet the marketing strategy of Eurocopter.
I agree with Hover Bovver that the MD600N is a pocket rocket. In the hands of a good pilot it is an amazingly flexible aircraft with sports car like performance.

[md 600 driver]

i went to md in march after hai and spent hours doing full touch down autos
every time ive been there ive done full touch down autos
ive even done full touch down autos with rich lee

all in a 600 also done them in a 500 and 520

steve atherton

[HeliMark]

Rich, I would agree that it most likely is an internal policy on not doing the full touchdown auto's at that time at least. And you are right MD needs to seriously look at their demo policy if they want to get back into selling more machines.

Having flown the 600, I would never want to race aginst it with another helicopter. No question that the 600 would leave the other helicopter behind.

[Ian Corrigible]

Late comments:

- Those two Turkish MD 600Ns were actually delivered in March, so it's disappointing that the ALEA release didn't mention any additional deliveries
- Even with the inertia of the congressional approval process, the Army, Boeing and MDHI all hope the Little Bird contract gets signed before 2007; 2005 if things go smoothly, 2006 if they don't.
- The Phoenix PD have reportedly been wanting to expand their MD 520N fleet for a number of years, but are - like many operators - frustrated by the impact of spares availability on their operational readiness rates.
- Re: 520N hot & high ops, see previous thread on the 530N

There will doubtless be more discussion on MDHI's future when it releases details of the "strategy to improve current financial and operational circumstances" referred to in Kaman's Q2 report.

I/C

[Notar fan]

There will doubtless be more discussion on MDHI's future when it releases details of the "strategy to improve current financial and operational circumstances" referred to in Kaman's Q2 report.

Ian, there should be something concrete from the MD circle in the very near future.:ok:

[Notar fan]

MD will win the Border Patrol contract with the 520N. (This rumor should probably be labled the "Spicolli" rumor.)

Knock that one on the head, Diethelm. The 520 was NOT part of the evaluation process.

[ppheli]

Rumours abound that the sudden departure last week of the Kaman Aerospace boss man was due to the floundering Kaman-MDHC contract. Anyone care to comment?

[206 jock]

Just as a matter of interest, there are 6 MD600's advertised for sale in last week's Helidata (UK). Of course, several of these might be the same one, but I reckon there's more of them advertised than JetRangers and R22's.

Is it just coincidence or is there another force at work here?

[Head Turner]

Confidence in the product and availability os spares = a good helicopter.
MD must finance their spares organisation and it seems from the inputs above that, that is what MD are intending. Do they read this forum? I believe they do.
From my limited experience I find the 600 a super smooth ship in calm conditions however, when it's blustery it's uncomfortable and hard work to fly. The 900 is also super smooth and very nice to fly. It's weakesr link is the range. 3 hours should be the benchmark for all small helicopters

[md 600 driver]

head turner
the 600 flys well with the ysas fitted
without it can be a bit of a pig
steve

[ppheli]

from the East Valley Tribune.....


Aug. 26--MD Helicopters, a Mesa-based producer of light nonmilitary helicopters, is slashing its work force by 22 percent through layoffs and involuntary furloughs as the company tries to restructure its finances.
Officials said Wednesday the company has been hurt by a slowdown in orders for its helicopters, which are primarily aimed at the law enforcement and air ambulance markets. "This decision is one of many we are executing on to improve the company's viability while aligning our business needs, financing and market requirements," CEO Henk Schaeken said in a written statement. "Our people are working very hard to work through our current difficulties, and we anticipate that many of these personnel will be brought back once our workload improves."

He also said the job cuts are part of "a comprehensive restructuring strategy for the company," which is a subsidiary of RDM Holdings N.V. of the Netherlands. Schaeken was not available for further comment Wednesday.

A total of 23 employees are being laid off, which means their positions are being permanently eliminated, while another 33 are being furloughed and will be eligible to return when business improves, spokeswoman Kyle Davis said. Following the reductions, about 200 employees will remain at the plant at 4555 E. McDowell Road.

RDM purchased the company from Boeing in 1999 after the merger of Boeing and McDonnell Douglas Corp., taking over what had been the light helicopter division of McDonnell Douglas. In the process RDM acquired the rights to several advanced-technology helicopters developed by McDonnell Douglas such as the MD Explorer and MD 600N. Those aircraft have a no-tail-rotor system that makes them quieter than conventional helicopters. Davis said the world civil helicopter market has been relatively flat in the past few years, while MD is facing increased competition in the United States from European manufacturers such as Eurocopter, a subsidiary of Airbus owner EADS, and Italy-based Agusta. "Those are large companies," she said. "This (MD Helicopters) is a smaller company that is needing to be extremely lean and competitive."

Last year MD delivered 15 helicopters, which consisted of eight Explorers, one MD 600N, three MD 530Fs and three MD 500Es. The layoffs came after a refinancing package for the company fell through, Davis said. "So now (MD officials) are in the process of working with a bank to bring in capital." Davis said "cash flow has been an issue" for the company, but she denied rumors the operation is in danger of folding.

The parent company in Holland has been "extremely supportive" of MD but has decided that MD should refinance with a major bank, she said.

"No one is talking about bankruptcy," she said, adding that "I haven't heard of any possibility of it (the refinancing) not happening." She said the company expects the new agreement to be completed within a few weeks.

Davis declined to comment on the unsuccessful deal, but speculation has centered on the Boeing Co. as possibly being interested in reacquiring MD. Boeing spokesman Hal Klopper declined to comment.

[Head Turner]

I think that we all hope that MD will pass through this awful phase and continue to produce helicopters. Competition is a healthy situation. If there were only one helicopter manufacting company can you imagine the awfulness of that!

We all saw what was happening at Bell that sitting on their laurals over so many years left them falling behind.

MD situation is different so lets see how their restructuring plan works. MD owners need supporting for sure.

Schweizer might be inerested in this line!!

[PANews]

'Last year MD delivered 15 helicopters, which consisted of eight Explorers, one MD 600N, three MD 530Fs and three MD 500Es.....'


That list is particularly worrying.

MD are apparently not now selling their bread and butter airframes into the home [USA] market. The law enforcers appear to be increasingly going elsewhere.......

In fairness for this years sales totals there are a handful of 600s off to Turkey, but I wonder if there has been any recovery in the home sales of the 500 line?

[The Sultan]

Don't all you MD customers wish that Bell had been allowed to buy MD? Eurocopter must be laughing their asses off on how they convinced the FTC to block that move.

The Sultan

[HeloEagle]

Boy isn't that the truth. The Bell/MD merger would have been great for both, as Bell could have got a great twin (the Explorer) since the 427 has marginal performance, and they could have keep the 500 line going, and done away with the 600 line in favor of the 407. Plus the MD line would have benefited from Bell's great customer service, and Bell would have benefited from the NOTAR technology. Funny how the FTC let Boeing buy McDonnell Douglas, and form the largest aerospace company in the U.S., but yet they wouldn't let Bell buy MD helicopter which would have been a plus for the U.S. helicopter industry. I guess maybe Eurocopter does have someone inside the FTC, ha, ha.

[RetreatingBlade]

So today I hear that it has been announced that MD have been bought by Sikorsky.

Can anyone confirm this?


Thanks

[Head Turner]

Nothing has seeped through to the UK yet but this purchase if it is true must be welcome news to the owners of MD products.

MD should realise that in this day and age putting all your hopes on a narrow based product line is risky. Look and see what the motor manufacturers get into, table ware to generators house building to ship building.

MD mating with Sikorsky should be OK.

[PT6ER]

Do you mean CH 54's ??

I thought they were Erickson Air-Cranes now since they own the T/C ??

[Head Turner]

Did I hear that the Brazillians are interested to take up MD and become a helicopter builder (Embr).

[delta3]

Try this one

Boeing buys back MD, to recover the know-how they were not yet paid for to begin with.

They also buy some old MI-26's and put a team to analyse them, so that they are ready for developping a new big size transport heli, just in case the V-22 does not live up to the expectations....

(not meant as a us-euro ping-pong game)

delta3

[Ned-Air2Air]

MD Helicopters Appoints Robert W. René Interim Chief Executive Officer; Randy Kesterson as Chief Operating Officer

Appointments Follows Recent Acquisition by Funds Affiliated with Patriarch Partners, LLC to Reposition the Company for Long-Term Growth

MESA, Ariz. Sept. 16, 2005 – MD Helicopters, Inc. (MDHI), a leading manufacturer of commercial and military helicopters, has named Robert W. René interim Chief Executive Officer and Randy Kesterson as Chief Operating Officer.

In this role, René will provide oversight for the formation of a new executive management team for the Company and will lead business development efforts. Kesterson will manage all phases of the Company’s production, quality assurance, engineering, completion, material management and information technology.

Patriarch Partners, LLC, a financial firm with approximately $4.5 billion under management, acquired within its investment vehicles (“Patriarch”) a controlling interest in MDHI in July. Patriarch’s acquisition of MDHI is structured as a long-term investment for the firm.

René has more than 20 years of operating experience in a variety of technology and manufacturing fields, and a proven track record in strengthening growth companies.
“I am excited to have the opportunity to work with MDHI’s management team as the Company positions itself to grow its business over the long-term,” René said. “MDHI’s proprietary NOTAR® no tail rotor system provides significant operating efficiencies and distinguishes the Company’s products from its competitors. The recent long-term commitment to the business by our majority shareholder, Patriarch, when combined with an industry-leading product, foretells tremendous upside potential for the Company and its people. We have, in this very short time, already seen a significant increase in demand for our spare parts and products.”

“Robert has a proven track record with Patriarch for bridging transitions and building management teams. He is a tremendous leader and innovative thinker and we expect his tenure here to be integral to the repositioning and growth of MDHI,” stated Lynn Tilton, founder and Chief Executive Officer, Patriarch Partners, LLC.
René has been the Chief Executive Officer for InnMedia, a distribution Company owned by Hilton Hotels Corporation, the CEO of Hartwell Industries, an apparel manufacturer, and CEO of Electro Source, LLC, one of the leading makers of accessories to the video gaming industry.
Both Hartwell and Electro Source are Patriarch portfolio companies. René was a Rhodes Scholar nominee from Cornell University and also is a graduate of the Stanford Graduate School of Business and Stanford Law School.

Kesterson is a 20-year aerospace industry veteran. Most recently he was executive vice president and Chief Operating Officer of Curtis-Wright Controls, Inc., a $300-million division of Curtis-Wright Corporation.
“Hiring Randy to join our team is a major coup for MD Helicopters,” René said. “He is a hands-on manager who builds collaborative environments, enabling his teams to perform at the highest levels. Randy will quickly drive MDHI’s product capabilities to an industry-leading level.” He earned an MBA degree at Syracuse University and was accepted into the Sloan Fellows Program at MIT. He also is a Six Sigma Black Belt.

[SASless]

Oh my! But do they know naught about helicopters and the helicopter market?

[Thomas coupling]

Thats it then...a 6 sigma black belt:E

I didnt know that macrame was necessary to sell helicopters?:ooh:

[Ned-Air2Air]

They may know stuff all about helicopters, but it would still give them a better chance of running the company well compared to the last lot. :yuk:

[Ned-Air2Air]

Have seen a lot of negative posts about the future of MD so thought I would make one post about where they are at and headed. On my last trip to the US a couple of weeks ago I had dinner with Lynn Tilton, Keith - her advisor, Robert Rene the CEO and John Batten the VP of Marketing & Sales. Without giving too much away they have some great plans in story for MD which will benefit every operator. They have shortened the lead time on parts from +6 months to about six weeks which is about the industry norm. However there are some parts which are taking long, because of tooling up again etc and this is something out of their hands. Lynn is paying up front for a lot of things and you never would have seen that with previous management. The morale there has changed for the better and its very easy to see. I have copied below a Q & A from the latest issue of my mag for those that are interested. Its a one on one with Lynn and I thought those MD operators that visit the forum will be interested in it.

By the way saw the latest 902 for a UK Police dept on its latest test flight.

-------------------------------------------------------

Ask most owners and operators of an MD product worldwide who Lynn Tilton and Patriarch Partners are and you will probably be met by a blank look. Tell them that in July this year they become the new owners of MD Helicopters and that Lynn Tilton plans to make MD the industry°Øs comeback story of the decade, and their look will change to disbelief.


Do a google search on Tilton and Patriarch and you wont find much, even though Tilton manages 60 companies. Interviews with Tilton are few-and-far between. At the recent Heli Tech convention in the United Kingdom, however, Heli Ops had the opportunity to sit down and have a one-on-one conversation with the CEO, founder and principal of Patriarch Partners - Lynn Tilton. We get some straight forward, honest answers on why Patriarch bought MD from near collapse, what plans they have for the new company, and why she has taken such a personal interest in this once, bastard child of the helicopter industry.
According to the Dow Jones Newswire service, recent comments by management of Kaman Aerospace and Rolls-Royce, show that the company is well on its way to mending ties with alienated suppliers and repairing its reputation. From her actions so far it would seem that they have the resources and talent to restore the company to prominence in the industry.
Even since our interview, things have been changing dramatically at MD. With a new sense of direction at their Mesa Arizona facility, morale has turned the corner. MD make a great product, and now with a dedicated team on board and Tilton with her finger directly on the pulse, only time will tell if they can rebuild the company°Øs customer confidence and turn MD into the industry°Øs poster child.

Who are Patriarch Partners and what is your background?

Patriarch Partners, LLC ®C is an investment fund with approximately $US5 billion of assets under its management, including equity positions in more than 65 companies. Patriarch aims to be a proactive partner to companies during periods of operational, industry and economic transformation, rebuilding them by providing liquidity, time and strategic support.
I earned a BA in American Studies from Yale University and an MBA in Finance from Columbia University. Å6¶5I have 24 years of Wall Street investment banking and portfolio management experience. I also served as executive managing director of Papillon Partners, Å6¶5a firm that I founded to offer customized research, valuation, and execution services to sellers of distressed bank loans and high yield securities.



What experiences or beliefs do you have that encourages you to seek to save companies rather than break them up and sell off the assets as others do?

My ability to touch the lives of so many people by way of providing capital to them and restructuring companies that others might liquidate, mandates my honor and responsibility. I am of the strong belief that providing second chances to companies during periods of operational turmoil and thereby saving jobs brings additional light into the world. Loss of a job to an income provider can be devastating to the employees°Ø family. At Patriarch, we believe we can transcend boundaries that provide substantial returns for our investors while still working towards enhancing the lives and prosperity of the constituents we touch.

In your experience, has there been a common reason(s) why companies fail?

Companies fail for a myriad of reasons; some fall short based on one underlying frailty and others on the confluence of many. The absence of sufficient working capital, the conflict of purpose between warring constituencies, the demands of a capital structure heavily burdened by debt, operational inefficiencies as well as the inability to spend dollars on R&D and innovation, are all catalysts to failure.

Are there any basic principles that help assure a company to survive and prosper?

At Patriarch, we maintain that companies must
travel the dual paths of building efficiency as well as sustaining innovation. We also maintain that our portfolio companies must work from serving the needs of its customer back towards the manufacture, assembly and/or distribution of its products. Companies need sufficient working capital and the ability to stay flexible, fluid and have the access to rapid decisions in the face of important issues. By providing both the debt and equity capital to our portfolio companies, we attempt to insure that no other constituency can obstruct the clear path of movement towards prosperity, in spite of needs that might arise but that can be rapidly addressed by the clarity of our corporate structures and governance.

How many hours a day do you work and what drives you to spend so much of your time devoted to business?

As of late, I appear to be working every waking hour°™on average 18-20 hours each day. seven days each week. I am driven and compelled by my ability to support and drive companies with great products, people and potential, from the precipice of destruction towards success and prosperity. At Patriarch, our risk profile and the tenure of our investment funds enable us to take a long-term view and to venture upon a 180 degree rebuild of the company with its flaws and frailties as we see it today. There is no greater satisfaction for me than the appreciation from those people whose lives Patriarch has improved by belief in their individual and collective potential.

What part of the business do you most enjoy? Is it for example, the °Ædeal°Ø or working towards it? Or is it, for example, seeing the company recover?

There is little about the Patriarch platform that I do not feel great passion for, nor relish in each day. My favourite aspects, however, are the design and execution of the transaction itself and the conception of the innovative strategies that drive our portfolio companies to their rightful places in their respective markets. I am always of the belief that with great management and the execution of our platform initiatives that we can endeavour, in every situation and circumstance, to build the spectacular.

What good and bad experiences did you have in the early years of business? Did you for example, experience the °Æglass ceiling°Ø that other female executives have commented about?

I think the path to the top of the corporate hierarchy is fraught with obstacles for women for many reasons, including the obvious choices with which women are faced as the gender that bears children. As a single mother on Wall Street for 22 years, I have faced many tough choices and decisions that rendered me less than perfect as both mother and executive. However, at each place of employment I embraced the perspective that ultimately the knowledge and experience I could absorb would never be taken from me. I choose only to look back at the past in order to learn from my mistakes and to venture forward always with the perspective that each hardship and experience has made me the leader I am today. I believe the pain of the past has caused me to be sufficiently courageous to confront opportunities that others might view as unpalatable.


I hope in the very near future!!!

Do you still find any reluctance by men to work with you?

Actually, if there is reluctance I am now oblivious to the tendency. I find that with age, my °Æfemaleness°Ø has transcended from detriment to advantage. I believe my accomplishments and apparent desire to transact with honor, integrity and commitment, is appreciated by all those with whom I come into contact. However, there is always a good chance that male reluctance exists, but for me it passes unnoticed.

Have you had experience in the aerospace industry? Are there any differences in working with the aerospace industry as compared to working with the other companies you redevelop?

MD is my first venture or °Æadventure°Ø in the aerospace arena. The industry, more than many others, is a very small world where everyone seems to know each other and the barriers to entry are high. However, Patriarch approaches each investment with the same passion and with the intent to provide solutions to the issues and problems that plague our individual portfolio company or the industry as a whole. As many in the industry have already noticed, we work °Æoutside the box°Ø in terms of the development of strategies and how we expand our relationships with customers, suppliers and our peers.

Was MD in trouble? What were its immediate problems?

When we arrived, MD°Øs production capacity had been restricted by limited components. The absence of working capital, the inability to serve its customer base with spare parts and new deliveries, as well as large unpaid debts had forced the Company into a place where survival had been its only noble cause.

How did you come to know about MD and its troubles? When?

Wachovia Bank, the asset-based lender to MD, conveyed the Company to our attention in late May and suggested that we delve into the prospect of purchase. There has never been any derision amongst anyone that knows MD that its products and its potential for success are °Æcult like,°Ø and °Æenormous°Ø, respectively. Wachovia, often a partner to Patriarch, believed that with our capital and our commitment to difficult turnaround situations, that MD might be a prospect for acquisition and they believed that the demise or liquidation of MD would be an unnecessary shame.

When did you take over the company? Was the takeover °Æfriendly°Ø or was it driven by certain other factors?

We first met with the shareholder in early June and closed the transaction on July 8, 2005. The transaction was more than friendly; it was a joint effort between buyer and seller to use the purchase capital to settle the debts of the Company, provide sufficient working capital for the future and to insure that the Company would recover its own individual identity. Both Sikorsky and Boeing, who had lent money to the Company at earlier dates, were paid in full by our transaction. The old shareholders continue to own a minority economic interest with no control or advisory rights pro forma for the transaction. Nevertheless, the mutual intent and desire to give new life and breadth to MD has promoted a strong relationship between the Patriarch and the minority shareholders.

What experience had you with helicopters before the MD takeover? Did you ever holiday or travel on business by helicopter? What were your impressions as a non-aviator about these machines?

I have travelled on helicopters both for business and on explorative journeys in interesting places I had visited. Actually, before learning more about our industry, I had often been unnerved by the safety factor as well as the noise level during travel. I think my interest in MD was, in part, enhanced by the Notar technology which mitigates the noise element and substantially enhances the safety factor. The views from helicopters and the convenience for short journeys, especially when moderated by °Æhow the crow flies°Ø is unsurpassed by any other vehicle of travel.

What were the qualities of MD Helicopters that attracted and made you believe that it was a company worth saving?

MD°Øs products are °Æcult like°Ø in the manner that they are valued and appreciated by operators. Once I was able to discern the apparent level of import for the product and the technology, I was rapidly convinced that MD was worth the time and the capital investment to raise the Company to its rightful place in the helicopter market.

How much money has been paid to date and how much more do you think will need to be spent to get the company on its feet?

We have invested over $US150 million of fresh capital to pay past due payables, restart production, hire new management, add labor, and revitalize the procurement and logistics of a spare part business. As most know, we are also bidding on the Army°Øs new $1.3 billion LUH contract so that, too, has been a capital-intensive project. We anticipate at least another $US50 million of fresh capital investment to put the business Å6¶5in °Æfull court press°Ø status to fully serve and satisfy the installed and new customer base.

What are your priorities in re-establishing MD?

Our single most important priority is our duty of care and loyalty to our installed customer base. Many of our customers have experienced hardship and down-time due to the inability to avail themselves of spare parts. Our new business model segregates the Logistics Business°™spare parts, customization and completion, and flight training from assembly and new deliveries. We are focused, first and foremost, on the provision of spare parts and insuring that our installed base is flying.

What sort of changes can we expect to see in the immediate future?

I believe the changes are already readily apparent. Senior management, but for our general counsel, is all new and highly creative and qualified. Operators who had not been able to procure spare parts are in receipt of deliveries. Sufficiency of working capital is [not an issue]. Any delay in deliveries for spare parts is a product of our inability to procure due to timing and the need for reintroduction to production lines or the inability to access raw materials such as titanium. We have already moved two helicopters from the production line to freight for delivery to the Turkish National Police and we anticipate bidding on the Army°Øs $1.3 billion LUH contract as the prime contractor on Tuesday of this week. Need I say more???

What successes have you had in the time that Patriarch has been running MD?

See above...in addition, we have inspired Andy Logan, patent holder on the Notar technology, to work with us to upgrade and innovate our technology beginning with the MD Explorer. We begin flight testing this week and are highly encouraged that the systematic modifications recommended by Andy will allow the MD Explorer to meet much higher standards of weight/flight altitude with much greater thrust than was previously attainable.

What strategies do you have to turn the company around? What are the more immediate issues and what are the longer-term goals?

We strongly believe that MD produces the archetype of the safest and most economically efficient helicopter in the market. We understand that the helicopters have been unavailable to the customer and a high-risk purchase, in light of the financial uncertainty that has enveloped the Company in recent years. In short, we want to insure that operators have access to our °Æbirds,°Ø with the assurance of on-time delivery, and timely access to spare parts and service for the long-term.

What sort of new management strategies do you intend bringing to MD?

We believe that companies must walk the dual paths of efficiency building and continuing innovation. We are building process and efficiency with new systems and supply chain management so that we better understand the metrics of our business and how to most efficiently and economically serve our customer base. We intend to upgrade out helicopter fleet by bringing back to MD the engineer who gave life to Notar technology. We have accomplished all this and more in less than 90 days of ownership and management.

Although you manage over 60 companies, we understand that you taking a very personal interest in MD...why?

I am certain, in part, my appreciation and devotion to this Company is rooted in the same addiction that all you devotees of the helicopter world suffer under. Most importantly, I perceive the enormous [importance] of bringing the °Æsafest°Ø helicopter back to the market as an option for all those operators whose lives are dependent upon the safety of the helicopter in which he/she flies. I am also intrigued and excited by the infinite potential for growth at MD: I am indelibly devoted to helping this management team build the °Æspectacular°Ø!

What are the strengths of the MD?

Its products and technology!!!

In taking over MD, you obviously believed the company was worth saving. Why? What risks for Patriarch have been identified in taking-over MD?

The Company was undoubtedly worthy of salvation as a consequence of the demand for its products and the indelible support of operators in spite of the disappointing performance of recent years. We moved with great force and rapidity to acquire MD as its orderly liquidation had commenced. We were unaware of how deep were the inefficiencies, the obstacles to re-starting full production and the breadth of unfilled orders for spare parts. In spite of the enhanced risk profile unearthed, the unrealized potential more than offset that uncertainty and we are more optimistic and idealistic about the new MD than we had been prior to Closing.

Will R&D gain some impetus now and if so, where would the focus of that R&D lie?

R&D has already commenced with the new Explorer upgrade project led by Andy Logan. I believe our next project will be to address the performance issues with the MD 600 that have most recently been brought to my attention. However, in light of the Patriarch commitment to innovation, one could anticipate that R&D dollars will be spent on all products, and where agreements allow ®C new products.

Do you have any plans for new or improved products in the next five to ten years?

Improved products are on the way. I am forever thinking of new products but as only recently taking the role of °ÆHelicopter Girl,°Ø I will have to better grasp the restrictions of previous Purchase and Sale agreements as well as the possible transcendence of my creative thoughts into the reality of products. From what I hear, anything and everything is possible in the world of helicopters.

Some commentators have linked LUH with the decision to purchase MD...how do you respond to that?

The link is easily unchained by the reality that the commitment letter to purchase MD was signed prior to Patriarch°Øs knowledge of the opportunity to bid the LUH program. Lockheed approached Patriarch and MD after they had heard of our decision to purchase; they needed comfort with our commitment and financial support of the Company. As I am certain you have heard or read, MD has decided, ultimately to bid as the Prime on LUH. However, the purchase was consummated with the understanding and belief that MD is a commercial helicopter company and with a duty of loyalty to its commercial customer base. We will not sacrifice our commercial customer for LUH. Rather we believe a °Æwin°Ø on LUH will only allow us to better serve our commercial operator with natural upgrades to our helicopters and a surplus of spare parts in production and available.

If there is one thing you could say to the current MD operators, what would it be?

You have MD°Øs and Patriarch°Øs commitment that we will serve you well. We hope that our actions are already apparent. In the end, you have our commitment and our word, but the onus is upon us to prove that to you in our actions and in our on-time delivery of spare parts and new commercial helicopters. We are back...and we are planning for the long-term future. We want you to be proud to be operators of MD products.

What sort of feedback have you had from operators so far?

Feedback thus far has been the relief at seeing spare parts flowing and they are rooting for our comeback. In the end, however, they all await with bated breath for the validity of our promises and commitments in our actions. And we can°Øt expect nor ask for more than that.

When are you going heli-fishing in New Zealand?

[md 600 driver]

ned

is the longest post on pprune WOW could pa news do a longer one on the 135 [not cut and paste ]

[Revolutionary]

Ned, do you have a last name for Keith the advisor?

[Geoffersincornwall]

What happened tp previous VP sales Colin Whicher, he owes me a beer and he can't escape that easily

G

:)

[Ned-Air2Air]

Revolutionary - Keith is Lynns advisor from Patriarch, nothing to do with the aviation industry. He is her right hand person.

Colin Whicher is gone and so is Henk and many others. Whole new bunch of people there. They bought in an outside logistics person who has a very very good track record of other companies he has worked at and is already making his mark.

Ned

[diethelm]

Ned:

No one would argue the intent of new management. However, the facts remain clear. Many parts are not available not due to lead times but due to a lack of agreement on past amounts due to vendors. Patriarch undertook a major task by not running MD through a bankruptcy and until each and every vendor is handled, the parts shortages will continue.

For management to state that lead times are now six weeks is simply not true. My head has been in there for almost a year. Sheet metal parts which Kaman has in inventory are not available and will not be shipped by Kaman until a deal is done. Veticals have been on backorder for 18 months. I could go on and on.

I love the product, I own one. But Patriarch has a lot of work to do within defined budgets and it is simply going to take a lot of time. Further, Patriarch paid up for the deal and we should expect sizeable increases in the price of spares. With all that said, I would still buy another, but I would hope no one is so naive to beleive it is all going to be fine in a short period of time.

[ppheli]

Around Helitech time, Henk still worked for MD, but in another capacity (see interview with Rene here (http://www.shephard.co.uk/rt.aspx?e3220c39-47db-4213-88ea-c30335db3810) which mentions it).

Entirely separately, and something I _cannot_ substantiate there was word that Henk had financial involvement in another company at Mesa involved in fuselage construction for, you guessed, MD Helicopters. Anyone comment on that?

Colin Whicher - I think he left prior to HAI 2005? Good luck in the beer hunting Geoffersincornwall

[Ned-Air2Air]

Diethelm - I should have clarified that they are aiming to have everything on a six week turnaround and they do acknowledge there are still issues with some suppliers. There is a bit more to the Kaman issue than known but I cant elaborate on it until given the go ahead.

Lynn and team are not expecting this to be a quick turnaround, they envisage at least a year or two but are making every effort they can. I am only basing my comments on what I see and hear and am told.

ppheli - Henk is most certainly gone. He got demoted down to a Sales position and then out of the company. Yes he was at Helitech, saw him myself. When I was at the factory two weeks ago he was way gone. And he and Rick are now partners in Flight Trails. Not sure what the company is but they bought it some time ago.

[diethelm]

Flight Trails is an MD Authorized Service Center and an MD OEM Completion Center. You can google their web site.

[ppheli]

It's at http://www.flighttrails.net/

[Head Turner]

I would like to add my thanks to those who have 'saved' a helicopter company and a superb product. Without doubt the MD902 has the best cockpit logic and is a delight for passenger confort.
Resurrecting MD will be task and will take time, so give it time and support.

[huntnhound]

".....What are your priorities in re-establishing MD?

Our single most important priority is our duty of care and loyalty to our installed customer base. Many of our customers have experienced hardship and down-time due to the inability to avail themselves of spare parts. Our new business model segregates the Logistics Business°™spare parts, customization and completion, and flight training from assembly and new deliveries. We are focused, first and foremost, on the provision of spare parts and insuring that our installed base is flying.

What sort of changes can we expect to see in the immediate future?

I believe the changes are already readily apparent. Senior management, but for our general counsel, is all new and highly creative and qualified. Operators who had not been able to procure spare parts are in receipt of deliveries. Sufficiency of working capital is [not an issue]. Any delay in deliveries for spare parts is a product of our inability to procure due to timing and the need for reintroduction to production lines or the inability to access raw materials such as titanium. We have already moved two helicopters from the production line to freight for delivery to the Turkish National Police and we anticipate bidding on the Army°Øs $1.3 billion LUH contract as the prime contractor on Tuesday of this week. Need I say more???.......


Bilge ...claptrap....spin.....B$£"it....

Heres an example of "duty of care" ...our aircraft has been offline since the 1st December 2005 due to spares not only being "unavailable" but NOT EVEN MANUFACTURED. But even so we were fed the `promise` of firstly the part would be delivered on 16/12/05....then today we are told its "unlikely" we will have the part by 21/12/05_in the UK that is.

Heres a tip for would be helicopter manufacturers...

TELL THE TRUTH TO YOUR CUSTOMERS...rather than feed them FALSE HOPE
:mad:

Hnh

[volrider]

First of all I think that the MD902 is a superb helicopter, quiet, safe and very smooth, far better than the EC stable of helicopters...I speak from experience of picking my fillings up from the floor of the EC145:E
The MD902 has one failling....its made by MD..if this was built by Eurocopter then the 902 would be a World beater in every field. You see the problem with MD is that they do not seem to have a R and D department, the aircraft from its inception has not changed whereas the EC135 has gone through various modifications and improvements that were requested by the customers, those are the people that can give first hand details of any problems, Eurocopter then seem to listen and work to cure them. MD on the other hand offer you only downtime and false hope, problems that are cured in a few months time raise their ugly heads again. This results in the operator having little faith in the reliability of the aircraft or the fixed problem not returning to a fault condition again.
I read the article featuring Lynn Tilton and if I believed her I would guess that MD problems are behind them, well sadly I do not believe her as the "loyal" customers are the ones that are being misled and quite frankly abused by the poor service MD offers. Sadly it's these same customers that will no doubt look else where for a product that will give reliable service and less time on the ground waiting for parts that are not even manufactured!
Sad really as I do like the 902, it's just the company that sucks:sad: (allegedly of course)By the way saw the latest 902 for a UK Police dept on its latest test flight treasure the memory

[diethelm]

What is very interesting about the Kaman supply deal is the quote in the press release as follows:

"The agreements involve production of rotor blades, pitch cases and flex beams, all of which are key components for the MD Explorer® and other aircraft."

Notice there is no agreement on the production of 369 series parts to include sheet metal and hulls. If you look at the 8-K filed with the SEC they once again mention the above specific list of parts.

In any event, this does not look like an action which will result in any shorter lead times for 369 parts.

[huntnhound]

Lead times? I`ll tell you what LEAD TIMES means to MD HELICOPTERS- in the Queens English.........


SOD ALL


Hnh

[Thomas coupling]

Oh dear, dear.....

Please lets not have a false dawn here, for the sake of the helicopter industry as a whole. The world needs this helo by all accounts.
To my knowledge ... not one, not one single operator has complained about the product :ok:

To add another dimension: the Managing Director of the sole UK supplier has jumped ship and gone to join........................................

the AGUSTA UK supplier as their Managing Director.

What message does that send to the industry about MD :*

[ppheli]

TC - what do you read into the identity of who the new interim "Managing Director of the sole UK supplier" will be until they find a permanent one....?

For those reading this full thread who haven't yet caught up, his first name is Henk..

What message does that send to the industry about MD?

[HeliEng]

TC & ppheli,

I think you'll find that the supplier you are talking about are not the SOLE U.K supplier of MD products!!

[Thomas coupling]

Who else is an MD902 agent in the Uk?

[ppheli]

Yes, OK, I need to be more precise. The company at EGBJ has sole rights to sell MD products to the "utility market" covering law enforcement and EMS. They cannot sell to corporate or private customers, and hence another company in the Sunny South at EGKA sells to that market place, including new MD902s (eg the dark green one based at Redhill).

TC - I'd like to add something to your notes earlier "not one single operator has complained about the product". I think this is incorrect, although it depends how you want to read this public document from the West Midlands Police Authority website (http://212.158.27.45/CMISWebPublic/Binary.ashx?Document=112).

Para 2.3 states "The current aircraft has begun to suffer higher unavailability rates as a result of maintenance issues." Is this normal for a 6-year old and 5,500 hour machine, or a general statement of the situation MD got their customers into under the old management?

[SilsoeSid]

http://www.easternatlantic.co.uk/images/EA-Static-High.jpg (http://www.easternatlantic.co.uk)

In 1992, Eastern Atlantic set out to be the premiere helicopter distributor for Enstrom and MD Helicopters in the UK and Europe.
Current stock;

http://www.geocities.com/pprunessilsoesid2/currentstock.jpg

Mmmmm....Our bonded store contains around £1 million of approved stock, but if we haven’t got it – we can get it. Contact our Parts Manager Ian Cosham by email or phone with the part number and he will be happy to help.
:ooh:
SS

[Thomas coupling]

Ppheli:

Didn't know about EGKA is that Robinson!

The W Mids issue revolves soley around spares and logistics and NOT the helicopter perse.



Sil:

Never heard of them...do they still exist or is this an old ad?

[Just saw their web site??? - speaks for itself really. How do you take a helicopter company seriously when they use Schrek pictures in amongst their PR???]

Could you imagine buying a sophisticated 902 off these guys???

[Head Turner]

Those UK based Ppruners surely will have heard of Eastern Atlantic Helicopters based at Shoreham and are MD and Enstrom people. Simon Oliphant-Hope flew an MD round the world and holds the record. So I am surprised that his company is not better known all over UK. Obviously not according to the comments above.
Interesting to learn that Dennis Kenyons preferred helicopter is an MD 500. To loose such a brand as MD would do the industry no good.

[helicopperter]

As customers with a 900 we are increasingly worried about spares shortages, spares out of production, no mechanical updates to old old problems. At least we had a spokesman with the MD at PAS who would fight for us. Now we just seem to have inherited the problem with the new MD. Yikes! Help!!!

[doublesix]

Let's see if the spares situation improves as Patriarch say it will shall we. After all the spares back up from Eurocopter isn't what it once was apparently!!

[Thomas coupling]

I have to jump in here and defend ECD's track record. Normally, it is exemplary [16 x135 operators testify to this] but of late there has been a global rush of MGB suspension pots and certain local suppliers failed to stay abreast of the trend.
The other issue is the time it takes to turn round rotor blades which is unacceptable but manageable.

IF this cash injection by Patriarch doesn't improve things - the MD900 series is doomed methinks.

[md 600 driver]

RE MD Distributor Eastern atlantic helicopters shoreham

They are md authorised distributors the other being PAS [who i believe are or was owned by RDM who owned mdhi ] and also they are also the main sole enstrom dealer

They have sold at least 10 md 600s at least 4 900s [2 to friends of mine],3/4 md520s and a number of 500s also double numbers of enstrom 480s and pistons including 12 ex chilian airframes and a number of jetboxes and various others . I dont work there so i dont know the exact numbers but these are ones i know

i have personally bought 6 helicopters from this company over a numer of years

As a private pilot non cpl i have completed rating courses on the 500 520 600 900 at The Mdhi factory at mesa the md range in my mind is second to none and it will be a great shame if the company doesnt pull through there problems and i wish them all a Forward looking 2006.

Just saw their web site??? - speaks for itself really. How do you take a helicopter company seriously when they use Schrek pictures in amongst their PR???]

If the only measure of your company is by your website i suppose my company must also speak for it self really

tc
whats a shreck picture is it good or bad ,dont waste your time looking for my website i tell you now what it like s???te rymes with web ,site,

steve

edited to include comment from handysnacks

[handysnaks]

other being PAS [who i believe are or was owned by MDHI]

Just to try and clarify things here

PAS never have been and never were owned by MDHI, the connection was that RDM (a Dutch Company) owned PAS and RDM also owned MD Helicopters. Both companies had to stand on their own feet and either live or die by their individual endeavours. Even then it is not that simple, there were and still are various forms that RDM exist in all of which (for financial protection purposes I suspect), are 'independant' of each other and some of which are registered in A Dutch part of the Caribbean

Now of course Patriarch own the controlling interest in MD Helicopters (although I think but am not sure, that RDM still have a financial interest in MD Helicopters)

Finally, feel free to come in and contradict my statements. All of this is gleaned from the infernalnet and my rudimentary business knowledge (very rudimentary)!
Handy

[heli1]

For those still chasing Colin Whicher for a beer he has stayed in Arizona and moved into real estate..doing OK by all accounts.

[md 600 driver]

and henk is now the new md or ceo for PAS

[volrider]

and henk is now the new md or ceo for PAS
That is good news for PAS:ooh:

[Bearintheair]

not quite true, Henk is the acting MD of PAS until a permenant appointment is made.

[helicopperter]

So how many operators out there suffer from parts supply problems with MD? Certainly over here we have experienced a wild ride with some parts right there and others taking months to procure - and this is for a helicopter supposedly in production - the 902. Some of "us" have been down for weeks - we've just been lucky. What of the single engine lines. Can you get spares OK?

[rudestuff]

I too, have heard that MD parts service is unreliable etc, etc...

But will anyone agree with me that despite that (and not having much room in the back) - its still the coolest helicopter ever made.

....talking about the 500, obviously.

[volrider]

But will anyone agree with me that despite that (and not having much room in the back) - its still the coolest helicopter ever made

Depends if "cool" means its out of service 50% of the time (I am being generous here):ugh:

[Bertie Thruster]

Serviceability rate for our MD 902, over last 5 years, is 93%.

[Thomas coupling]

You are a very lucky (and unique) man to have that serviceability bertie. Whats your secret?

[volrider]

Simple TC he keeps it in the hanger polishing it for 11 months and 25 days of the year:E I am an old cynic:}

[Bertie Thruster]

Not unique. I believe another similar UK HEMS unit has an even better serviceability rate.

Perhaps our machines thrive on the rate of landings? (average 7.5 per flying hour)

Perhaps we don't have to dash everywhere at near max tq and max auw, without so much delicate police role equipment ?

Perhaps it's because only one individual does most of the flying on each machine?

[diethelm]

500 parts with PMA sources are abundant. Parts from MD are very difficult. Verticals do not exist, rotor heads are one year out, structural pieces not under PMA or already in md inventory do not exist and are not being made. Main and tail rotor blades are abundant, plenty of availability of main and tail rotor transmissions. There are a ton of maintainers who have abundant knowledge of the aircraft and can maintain or rebuild them without the help of the factory.

The good news is that more and more parts are undergoing PMA and over time most all parts will be available. With 3,000 ships out there, there is a spares business and most of the parts are simple enough that they can be brought under PMA. The problem for MD is that the longer they let this drag out, the more parts will come under PMA which naturally effects their business model.

[Hughes500]

Look after / operate 5 x 500's the only problem on parts has been a main rotor drive shaft - 6 months to get !

[diethelm]

Recently received a main rotor drive shaft. Took 10 months. Waiting for rotor head, been at the factory 13 months.

[helicopperter]

On re-reading Neds? interview with the new owner I noticed that there wasn't really any emphasis on the LUH program over in the US. Do posters think that MD can survive without this order with only a trickle of deliveries going out and all that Patriarch $$ going in? Also, seemingly no further single engine production if Kaman are to be believed. Who will support the 2000+ ships out there?

[diethelm]

It would appear the new CEO is now gone.

[Ian Corrigible]

Interim CEO Robert René ? Is it because they've found a long-term replacement, or did he jump ?

I/C

[diethelm]

Who really knows the real story. There appears to be no replacement named at this time. My belief is that Partiarch is finding that the problems were much greater than their due diligence uncovered and that it should have been run through a bankruptcy to make it a viable financial investment. All of the other industry and financial institutions appear to have figured this out. You wonder if Lynn Tilton had a time machine, would she press the back button and take a pass.

[volrider]

just goes to show you can't believe a word they say...:*

[Black Fly]

Mr. Andy Logan is being represented as the 'great white hope' of MD Helicopters but customers should not find this comforting. IMHO he is a half-way decent engineer who is well past his prime. We MD owners and operators should be concerned that he is a first-class corporate politician cut from the same cloth as those recently departed. At McDonnell Douglas he demonstrated a healthy disdain for customers in private while publicly representing otherwise. He has, more than once, taken design positions that customers will love what is given them since they aren't smart enough to know what they need or want themselves. He believes pilots and mechanics are, as a collective group, nothing more than well-trained monkeys. They should have hired Jim Van Horn. He is more intelligent and is a more accomplished engineer than Logan. He possesses greater respect for the customer and knowledge of industry requirements than Logan. He is, without any doubt, a better businessman than Logan. He also happens to be a mechanic, a pilot, and a successful businessman. On second thought, those are qualifications that will probably keep him from employment at MD. He is just too good.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Saw all the crap here and thought I would call Lynn Tilton directly and ask for the real facts behind Robert Rene's departure. Got a couple of text messages back and asked her if she minded if I posted her info and she said go for it. So here are the facts.

* Robert Rene was only ever INTERIM CEO. He works FT for Patriarch and runs their West Coast operations. He was put in at MD to sort everything out and start the process of hiring a new management team. He has done that and all but one position is filled, that of CEO so he has been moved onto another of Lynn's projects. Remember MD Helicopters is only ONE of 62 companies that Patriarch owns and Robert has a number of them under his guidance.

* Lynn is taking over for the very short interim period between now and when they announce their new CEO as she has an avid interest in MD, and the recently added senior executives are very capable of doing what they need to. There was no point in keeping Robert there when they have recently hired some very capable people to do what is needed. They are as follows:

- Dave Langenhuzein (used to be at MDHI previously)

- Charles Vehlow (long time Boeing, Army Science Board and Dir of Apache Program)

- Peter Hokanson as new CFO from Garrett Aviation.

Here is a quote from Lynns text message, posted here with her OK.

"I made the decision to build the permanent team at this time to make sure we could deliver. I hope operators are seeing a difference as we have reduced AOG's by around 80%. As promised that was my first priority".

As soon as I get advised by Lynn on who the new CEO is I will post it here and Lyn has made the invite that if there are any operators here who are experiencing problems getting parts from MD, then drop me a PM with all the info and I will pass it directly to her and she will try and sort it for you. Cant get a better offer than that, can you.

Ned

[volrider]

cheers for the update Ned, at least they are happy to keep everyone informed so thats a start...lets hope MD get it all working now. Be a shame to see the 902 which I think outstrips every other emergency services helicopter in the UK, fail due to spares and R&D problems

[diethelm]

Ned:

I am simply a regular working guy waiting for parts for my aircraft and although you think the complaints about parts are "crap" I simply disagree. We have been sitting for over six months with no progress because of parts. The shop which is rebuilding my aircraft has four sitting waiting for parts.

However I will be the first to admit that I am full of "crap" and that I am wrong if the situation has changed. I accept your offer.

Please tell Ms. Tilton I am short a part that has been on order for over one year. With this part, I could be in the air in four or five weeks. The part is a cheap $500 part. I need a right front lower skin. Any 369, 500 or 600 series right front lower skin will work as we can trim it to fit.

Further, if you can come up with the part, not only shall I admit I was completely wrong, I shall pay for your and Ms. Tilton's dinner next time you are out here.

The results shall speak for themselves.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Diethelm - Didnt mean to say you were talking crap, was referring to the posts by the armchair quarterbacks who read between the lines and come up with completely inaccurate assumptions, thats all.

Check your PMs.

Cheers

Ned

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thanks Ned !

[Hughes500]

Diethelm

Have you tried EM Helilogistics in Canada for your part ?

[Ned-Air2Air]

Hughes500 - Dave McFarlane has some skins but they are not certified ones, just made by a local manufacturer. Would suggest not using these ones.

Also spoke to Jeff at Ro-Wing and they have other skins but not the ones needed. Helimart is also a no go, they have them on back order also.

Will continue to post any results here.

Ned

[helicopperter]

In diethelm's message of the 16th January Ned promised to get the parts sorted. How did this go? When are the parts going to arrive. Hopefully the parts issue is sorted - or is it?

[Ned-Air2Air]

Have been in touch with Diethelm and just need to get the actual part number from him as without it its difficult.

Ned

[diethelm]

Ned:

Check you PM's. I sent it on Monday. Sent the message again today. In either event, 600N2500-32.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Diethelm - Check PM's urgently. :ok:

[diethelm]

Ned found one. Ned is a stud. They are going to call me later so that I can pick it up. I shall update everyone after I actually have it in my dirty little hands.

[diethelm]

I have it, it looks like it fits. Off to the spraybooth in a few weeks.

It would appear that the new management at MD is doing everything they can to be helpful and resourceful with a sense of urgency. Now if they could figure out how to build the C model for 800k or so, they would have the production churning away.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Glad it all worked out :E :E

[helicopperter]

Diethelm, did it come from MD and if so does this mean Kaman are producing spares again for500/600's? If sothis is great news and should be in headlines for MD. Finally getting out of the pooh!

[diethelm]

It came from MD. If you read Kaman's 8-K filed with the SEC, they do not mention making new parts for the 369 or 600 series aircraft. However, I would assume Patriarch is working hard to certify a new manufacturer to cure the backlog and to provide for reasonable lead times on spares.

[Heli-News]

Latest interview with Lynn Tilton

Lynn Tilton on Reviving MD Helicopters and U.S. Manufacturing - Businessweek (http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-08-08/lynn-tilton-on-reviving-md-helicopters-and-u-dot-s-dot-manufacturing)