Side Stick Cyclic

[Spaced]

Just wondering what others think about side sticks. Seeing as they are becoming a standard on attack helos, and I think the NH-90 has it, how long before we will se them on civil helos?
Since helos require just about every part of the anatomy to keep flying, would the inablility to hold the cyclic between the knees be a big disadvantage to the side stick.
Speculations welcome, as Im sure there are many how havent flown with one.:p

[NickLappos]

Having about 500 hours in a Cobra front seat, and also lots of time on Comanche and research helos with side sticks, I can say that there really is no difference. The location of the stick is not the driver, Spaced. For those aircraft, the cockpit packaging made the side-arm attractive, but where the stick is is not important, what it does (the stability characteristics of the aircraft0 are everything.

BTW, I believe the NH-90 FBW has a normal center cyclic.

[bockywocky]

I can confirm that the NH90 has NO side-sticks. There has been development testing on the side-stick control for the NH90 in the 90's, but in the end it was decided not to go ahead with it.

My personal opinion, working within the NH90 program, is that side-sticks would have been very good in a modern helicopter as the NH90. Presently there is not a possibility to fit them anymore, because on the right side of the pilots there are now two panels with a Cursor Control Unit (rollerball) and an Auxilliary Keyboard that are used to interface with the tactical system.

[Freewheel]

Spaced,


They would certainly reduce confusion among some pilots as to which stick they're handling. Of course, there are those who can't be helped........


Sidesticks would definitely help the packaging of a cockpit, so long as the control runs are manageable. They may allow control runs to be routed away from crush zones etc.


(I'm assuming FBW may be a bit expensive for civilian ops for some years to come - Nick????)


I seem to recall that when sidesticks were introduced to FW in the F-16, there was a tendency for pilot inputs to become highly aggressive, to such an extent that G loadings became excessive. While this may affect the tremendous fine motor skills we all possess......... I'm sure that we'll get used to it. The Cirrus family of light planks shows that sidesticks don't have to be linked to fancy technology, and they seem to be selling quite well......... I seem also to recall that the F-16 stick is rigid, with a strain gauge providing input information to the computers, while the cirrus is a direct control (rather like an R44 Astro....) I've never had enough interest to look that closely at either of then, does anybody out there have detailed knowledge????




BTW Spaced, how come you didn't wave when I drove by the other day?????

[blave]

My .02 pence (trying to be currency-correct here - how much is .02 pence worth in US coinage these days?) is...

1. I have more home PC-based simulator time than I care to admit to. As such, the "cyclic" is a joystick mounted in my desk's right drawer - a rough analogue to the sidestick in the Comanche and possibly the Cobra/Apaches' front seat. In Flight Simulator and X-Plane (as well as other, older sims such as Longbow, Comanche-Hokum, etc.) I mostly manage not to make a virtual hole in the ground with this setup.

2. I have about 130 hours in actual helicopters, most being with center-mounted cyclics (e.g. 300C-C/B) and maybe 30 hours in the Robinsons. Haven't made a hole in the ground in those either.

3. I have 200-ish hours in (real) airplanes that have the unfortunate trait of having "yokes", or steering wheels as I like to call them. Still kicking and breathing for the moment, I am.

3. I have about 20 hours in the Cirrus SR20 airplane, which has a left-mounted "sidestick" which is essentially the same as the yoke but offset to the left sidewall. (Very nice and convenient by the way - no interference with my kneeboard or charts.) Again - no hole in the ground thus far.

So my conclusion is that the physical location of the control is not much of a big deal. A bigger deal, probably, is the amount of "force feedback" that the control gives - and/or the amount of movement that it provides. I remember reading that the early F16 fighter's sidestick control had bare 100ths or 1000ths inches/cm of movement, which resulted in some overcontrolling incidents/accidents, so they increased the physical travel of the stick prior to the production run of that aircraft.

And that, my friends, is the .02 pence of a newbie helicopter pilot :D

Dave Blevins
San Jose, CA

[Gregg]

Blave has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

As Nick pointed out above, it doesn't really matter what type of cyclic you install, it matter how the aircraft flies.

On the AH-1Z/UH-1Y program, the two aircraft are designed to be as identical as possible. However, the UH model has a center cyclic and the AH model has a sidestick (in both cockpits). The decisions on what type of cyclic to use were based on effective use of the cockpit space and user ergonomics while doing the the mission.

The most important issue with a sidestick is what Blave pointed out- the mechanical characterisitcs of the stick. If you can't match the pilot feel to the aircraft respnse, the sidestick is useless. Which may be why more fly-by-wire aircraft are using suidesticks, since they can more effectively control the feel system of the cyclic when it is not mechanically directly to the flight controls.

[2Sticks]

Technically speaking, I'm glad there are still only two sticks, wherever they're situated.

2Sticks :D

[[email protected]]

But the R22 has had a side-stick controller for years - if you are flying from the LHS and want the RHS pilot to follow you through on a demo - you just grab the centre upright and let the other bloke hold the T bar in its normal place.

[Spaced]

I have to confess that it was a recent purchase of xplane that got me thinking about this.
I first started with the stick to the right as in a side stick position, but found it easier when in the center as I could steady it with my left hand when I needed to do something else. While I know there is a large difference between the computer and the real world, I was surprised at my preference.
Thanx for the informative replies, and the clarification on the NH-90.
I was wondring if there were any studies conducted re the saftey merits of each layout in event of an accident. I remember reading about pilots in Vietnam who had died after impact with the cyclic, a side stick would seem to minimise the risks in this area. Any thoughts?
Freewheel, check your PMs