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View Full Version : Speakers Corner III, The ONLY thread for Politics, Mid East stuff & the US


Danny
19th Apr 2004, 12:44
After a brief respite from the countless threads regarding the Middle East and circular debate they spawned, I have decided to stick with this concept. So that the Mods and I can track the debates and not have to spend too much time dealing with the flame wars that tend to erupt, any posts regarding politics, the Middle East, fundamentalist Islam (or any fundamentalist religious doctrine), al Quaida etc. etc. can take place in this thread ONLY! Anyone starting what the Mods or I consider to be threads about politics will be merged into this one.

As ultimate dictator, I reserve the right to stifle free speech and supress anything that really grates but as usual, the Mods and I will make judgement based on how civilised the tone is. Signal to noise ratio will be monitored too. :suspect:

I keep renewing the 'hamsters wheel' (so to speak) for those who know how to fix the ills of the world and are prepared to argue ad-nauseum on the best way to do it!

futurepilot2004
19th Jul 2004, 20:31
Im sure this has been covered before but I`m pissed off at the moment.
Several weeks ago the Sunday Times had an article on th top "brits" in holywood, imagine my shock when I opened it to find that Pierce Brosnan and Colin Farrell are now british.
I work in a shop and every day British(mainly English and welsh) come into our shop asking if we accept sterling and wanting to buy Orange and Vodafone phone cards and are left in shock when they find out we don`t sell them and dont accept foeign currency.
I was on another aviation (link:http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1657730/) and I quote "Personally I wouldn't like to see it happen as I like every UK country to have its own relativly big airline"

TO EVERY BRITISH PERSON OUT THERE WHO DOESNT KNOW, THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND IS NOT PART OF GREAT BRITAIN OR THE UK.

Ireland became a free state(along the lines of canada or australia) in 1922 after a war of independance with Britain.Then in 1949 Ireland declared itself a republic.
It`s incredibly annoying when British people refere to Ireland as part of the UK and claim successful actors, bussiness people etc as British. Thousands of Irish died in the struggle for freedom(and before you start, I`m not talking about the scum in Northern Ireland, which incidently IS part of Britain so "irish" terrorists are usually british) and its an incredible insult to those who fought for our independence when you still insist that we`re British.
There, rant over.

flyblue
19th Jul 2004, 20:37
Before anyone feels the compelling urge to reply disregarding the JB ROE, let me remind you that this evening we sadly had to close yet another thread because what was a very good occasion for discussion became a slagging match.
Thank you.

airship
19th Jul 2004, 20:38
And here I was thinking that I was being patriotic for having bought my 2nd Dell PC in 5 years! :rolleyes: ;)

Kiting for Boys
19th Jul 2004, 20:59
“TO EVERY BRITISH PERSON OUT THERE WHO DOESNT KNOW, THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND IS NOT PART OF GREAT BRITAIN OR THE UK.”

I knew that, do I win a prize?

Why not take their money at a ‘local’ exchange rate?

Did you know that GB isn’t the same as UK?
Did you know that 150 years ago there were more Irish in London than Dublin?
Did you know that the huge number of Irish heroes who fought for the freedom of small nations in 1914-18 were ignored and marginalised when they went home?
Did you know that there were eight Irish VC winners in WW2, all volunteers?
Did you ever ask yourself why there are so many disused CofI churches and what happened to all of the Protestants?

Don’t get upset because the English ignore Ireland….it’s better than the alternative.

futurepilot2004
19th Jul 2004, 21:08
"I knew that, do I win a prize?

Why not take their money at a ‘local’ exchange rate?

Firstly I asid , to everyone who DOESN`T know, read the damn post before commenting.
Secondly, why should we have to go through the bother of converting sterling to euro because the customers are ignorant.would a corner shop in England accept canadian doller? no of course it wouldn`t and likewise we don`t accept foreighn currency.

"Did you know that GB isn’t the same as UK?
Did you know that 150 years ago there were more Irish in London than Dublin?
Did you know that the huge number of Irish heroes who fought for the freedom of small nations in 1914-18 were ignored and marginalised when they went home?
Did you know that there were eight Irish VC winners in WW2, all volunteers?
Did you ever ask yourself why there are so many disused CofI churches and what happened to all of the Protestants?"

None of that has anything to do with British people considering Ireland part of Britain.

four_two
19th Jul 2004, 21:19
Did you know that Welsh starts with a capital W?
Did you also know that British starts with a capital B?

I think I really need a glass of Guiness and a massive chill out for being pedantic about typos and using the "p" word. Sorry sorry sorry.

Jerricho
19th Jul 2004, 21:24
Did you know aparrently U2 are British as well?

OneWorld22
19th Jul 2004, 21:25
Did you know that there were eight Irish VC winners in WW2, all volunteers?

Actually would you believe that after England, Ireland has the most VC recepients than any other country? (Including Wales and Scotland)

It's something smaller countries who live next to larger ones just have to put up I guess. Ireland and England/NZ and OZ/Canada and the US. People just assume you're from the larger neighbour. I don't think there's any intentional offense and Ireland should certainly not have any inferiority complex anymore. The country is doing rather well and has a GDP per capita greater then the UK now.

And from what I can see the Irish and English in particular have a relationship now that I wouldn't say is even cordial, I'd say it's actually affectionate. Didn't the last census in the UK show that something like 6 million in the UK now claim Irish ancestry?

AntiCrash
19th Jul 2004, 21:34
Before everyone gets stroppy let's remember that Irelend is the home of Bushmills! Soo lets play nice here!

lasernigel
19th Jul 2004, 21:41
One World22 I have always been proud of my Irish ancestry and never hidden the fact even when based in Omagh in the '70's.I admit there are a lot of 'new' roots people,but hey if they can prove it all the better.
So here's to Mary Lynch born Dec 22nd 1868 in Roscommon.

Wedge
19th Jul 2004, 21:46
Did you know that GB isn’t the same as UK?

Just to go totally off the point here, yes I was well aware of that but most people aren't, unless they are from the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man and the people who live there do extremely well out of their cosy relationship with the UK which means that they don't have to pay UK Income Tax or VAT but get almost all of the benefits of being a UK citizen (including the right to study at any UK University - usually with very generous grants) - and even get their VAT refunded on any purchases they make within th EU.

And yes I am well aware the ROI is not part of the UK and has not been for many years! Just thought the other points were worth rasing for those like me unlucky enough not to hold a Channel Islands passport. Still - once we join the Euro all will change! Bring it on!

Send Clowns
19th Jul 2004, 22:20
Try telling MOL, and the CAA, who both seem to think it's accepible to run a British airline under the IAA.

Bono seems to agree that they are British, Jerricho, if you listen to his comments before "Helter Skelter" on Rattle and Hum (I assume he was born in the Republic, though I am not certain).

Astrodome
19th Jul 2004, 22:24
I spent many happy months in Ireland in the 1980's riding on the footplate of the Irish Railways trains and met many splendid locomotive drivers....Look back with considerable nostalgia to that time.

Especially the Guinness, Smithwicks...and a lovely lady called Deidre...who worked for the Bank of Ireland in Dublin.!!!!!!!!!


Don't despair there are many British railwaymen who hold you int he highest regard....and know clearly that you are NOT part of the UK or British !

OneWorld22
19th Jul 2004, 22:41
Try telling MOL, and the CAA, who both seem to think it's accepible to run a British airline under the IAA.

Good grief man, that's a rather poor attempt!

Astrodome
19th Jul 2004, 22:51
Bono...Born Dublin 10th May 1960

Send Clowns
19th Jul 2004, 23:09
:confused: A rather poor attempt at what, OW22? At typing "Try telling MOL, and the CAA, who both seem to think it's acceptable to run a British airline under the IAA.", which it was all I attempted to do? Seems the only problem there was a typo in the word acceptable, but I can't touch type so I often miss typos. Or do you, in your unbounded wisdom, happen to know beyond doubt I was attempting something else, something even I didn't know I was attempting?

Thanks Astrodome. Great band.

OneWorld22
19th Jul 2004, 23:13
Now, now SC don't play silly games. A British airline? Get off the stage!

The Airline's head office is based in Ireland, it is incorporated in Ireland, It's Corporation Tax is paid to the Irish Revenue, It's lawyers are Irish, it's auditors are Irish, It's bankers are Irish, it's senior managers are Irish, it's AOC is issued by the IAA.......

Get where I'm going with this?

It's irrelevant where it's biggest base is, it wouldn't matter if 100% of it's operations were in the UK or anywhere else.

Mr Chips
19th Jul 2004, 23:16
work in a shop and every day British(mainly English and welsh) come into our shop asking if we accept sterling

Surely this shows that they know you aren't part of the UK. They are asking not assuming. i have been to many countries that accept foreign currency.

wanting to buy Orange and Vodafone phone cards and are left in shock when they find out we don`t sell them

Oh, don't you? You live and learn. I would have asked the same question in France Germany or Spain

I guess that the ST article really meant Brits as being "non Americans" but is obviously clumsy/wrong. I have to say though, ity is easy to forget that Pierce Brosnan is Irish from the roles he plays...

Why not take their money at a ‘local’ exchange rate?
Firstly I asid , to everyone who DOESN`T know, read the damn post before commenting.
Secondly, why should we have to go through the bother of converting sterling to euro because the customers are ignorant.would a corner shop in England accept canadian doller? no of course it wouldn`t and likewise we don`t accept foreighn currency.

I think that the intention of that suggestion was to rip them off! Offer to accept sterling at a rate of one pound = one euro. I think that would leave you nicely in profit. take the money and use it to buy some chill pills - you really seem like you need them!!!

Now lets hope this doesn't turn into the usual bitchfest between the usual suspects....

Send Clowns
19th Jul 2004, 23:23
OW22

That is exactly my point. It operates out of Ireland, demanding its pilots break even the more relaxed IAA rules, yet quite clearly the majority of the network is based around Great Britain.

Duckbutt
19th Jul 2004, 23:43
imagine my shock when I opened it to find that Pierce Brosnan and Colin Farrell are now british.

Sorry, no, I have no concept whatsoever how shocked you are, what bloody difference does it make that these particular gentlemen have mistakenly been called British?

So some people aren’t aware that the part of Europe where you happen to live uses Euros. OK visitors should know this but I would doubt that when they discover that you not unreasonably do not take Sterling I doubt that they were “left in shock”– it ain’t rocket science to find a bank and buy local currency?

TO EVERY BRITISH PERSON OUT THERE WHO DOESNT KNOW, THE REPUBLIC OF IRELAND IS NOT PART OF GREAT BRITAIN OR THE UK.

True, its part of the European Community like Great Britain or the UK.

Perhaps I’m a bit simplistic but frankly I don’t see the point of all this tribal stuff. I did some research into my ancestry and it seems probable that in the 13th C my forebears were Flemish weavers from the French/Belgian border areas. Apparently there is an Irish line as well. Fascinating information for me, but it doesn’t affect how I feel about myself or influence my life in any way. I just happen to have been born in a country that’s originally named after a district in what is now northern Germany. England is a pretty good place to live, I’ve got enough to eat and drink and I feel reasonably safe. The residents of every other European country can make the same claims. This is the 21st century, what does it matter what tribe you ‘belong’ to?

Onan the Clumsy
20th Jul 2004, 00:31
In all fairness

as I keep telling the Yanks

It's bloody complicated.

You've got your England (this merry England) Your Scotland, Wales and Ireland

Then you've got the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

There's your Britrish Isles

And all the bits that aren't

and the bits, like the IOM and the Scilly Isles that don't fit in all that well

Not to mention Yorkshire too :(

What else? Pharoes, Inner and Outer Hebrides

...and don't forget Sealand (http://www.sealandgov.com) too


English people (ie Gauls, Romans, Saxons, Vikings, Normans etc) are probably the worst though as they are less able to see the boundaries than others.

Serious question: What's Eire? Is that the Republic of Ireland? I mean the whole land mass apart from the Northern bit?

If so, does Eire + Northern Ireland = Ireland (speaking geographically, not politically)


In any event, the Yanks think we're all the 51st state :ugh:

pigboat
20th Jul 2004, 00:49
AntiCrash, also the home of this (www.tullamoredew.com/) and this. (www.thewhiskyhouse.com/english/i_greenspot.htm) :ok:

(Back to the regular scheduled program)

AntiCrash
20th Jul 2004, 01:12
Bless you Pigboat! All you others take note, do not blow this Irish Whiskey thing. Play Nice!!!

PPRuNe Radar
20th Jul 2004, 07:44
Before everyone gets stroppy let's remember that Irelend is the home of Bushmills! Soo lets play nice here!

Come now AntiCrash ... you'll get futurepilot2004 upset. Bushmills is in Northern Ireland ... i.e. it's 'British' :p I expect they'll let you pay for it in Euros though without getting too upset ;)

Stockpicker
20th Jul 2004, 07:51
I'd like it put on record that I once knowingly accepted Irish pounds when working in a (Scottish) college bar as my cash-strapped Irish mate didn't have anything else. So let's have a bit more entente cordiale (Spelling, Bre )?

Whirlygig
20th Jul 2004, 08:07
Futurepilot,

The problem is that is was only 80-odd years ago that the Republic of Ireland WAS part of Great Britian and there are still some alive who remember that.

You don't need a passport to enter Ireland (only to fly and that is airline security). Shops, pubs etc around the border (from whence I originate) around Derry will accept any currency offered.

The language is the same; the currency WAS very similar, there are even Victorian pillarboxes and K6 phone boxes left. It is hardly unreasonable of people to forget that it is a foreign country when my grandfather can remember when it wasn't.

Cheers

Whirlygig

G-ALAN
20th Jul 2004, 08:14
Ireland is the Republic and Northern. Northern Ireland is not recognised as a separate country in the Irish constitution. If you look at a UK passport it says, 'United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland'. Since the Irish don't recognise it as separate then it could be argued there is no such thing as the UK. The funny thing is the Brits kept the six counties because at the time they were the rich part. Now it's the other way round, the Republic is the stinking rich part.

P.S. In the last election in NI I believe Sinn Fein got 49% of the votes. If it ever goes over 50% then the Brits have to give the six counties back. Also a little known fact, the land in Ireland is actually on a 9000 year 'lease' from the English landlords, it would be interesting to see what happens in 8920 years when the 'lease' is up. Bet you didn't know that futurepilot :p

OneWorld22
20th Jul 2004, 08:36
G-Alan,

The constitution here was changed after the GF Agreement, it dropped the claim to NI.

Come now lads, you Brits are very pushy about letting the whole world know where you're from! Cut him some slack, he's just standing up for where he come from.

Tower Ranger
20th Jul 2004, 08:51
Galan
49% Dream on!! The Shinners came second to the DUP and then came UUP, SDLP and a few other no hopers so 49% is a mathematical impossibility to start off with.
Give the six Counties back? Please send me some off the drugs you`re on!Just remind me which parts of Western Ireland are wealthy or is it just Dublin.
As for U2 I stand to be corrected but are they not at least 25% British with Adam Clayton being the son of an English airline pilot.

OneWorld22
20th Jul 2004, 09:06
TR, what are you talking about?

The last census showed a very close split between the two groups.

If the Catholics become the majority in the future would you support a vote for unification and would you accept the vote if it was yes?

Western Oreland? Galways is home to the massive Pharmaceutical Industry here. The growth rate in this country is shooting ahead at this stage, far ahead of the UK and especially the North. I donlt think a lot of people want the North back and I really don't think they care.

But on another point, why do you want to keep the 6 counties?

I imagine that a loit of English people would love to get rid of them!

G-ALAN
20th Jul 2004, 09:26
Tower Ranger
Apologies, I believe it's the catholic protestant split which is approx 49/51% I've just read through the election results for Northern Irland from 1993 to 2001 and SF came a close second. Yes if SF do win a majority vote and if the people wish so then the six counties will be given back, quoted from the Belfast, British-Irish agreement:
(ii) recognise that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people of Northern Ireland;
and
(iv) affirm that if, in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii) above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish

Desert Nomad
20th Jul 2004, 09:27
PPRuNe Radar, I stand to be corrected, but although Bushmills is geographically at the northern end of the whole land mass of Ireland I believe it is actually a part of the Republic of Ireland.

work in a shop and every day British(mainly English and welsh) come into our shop asking if we accept sterling

Well, the folk from the Republic go to Northern Ireland and expect to be able to pay in Euro and they should know better than any that they shouldn't but they are in general allowed to. Why then should they not be able to use Sterling down south? If they can do it then the rest of the UK, GB, British Isles or whatever you want to call it can use it also?

eal401
20th Jul 2004, 09:42
wanting to buy Orange and Vodafone phone cards and are left in shock when they find out we don`t sell them
Shocked about what? That Ireland isn't served by two major international mobile phone companies?

I know full well that Ireland is not part of the United Kingdom thank you very much, and that ends my response to the arrogant and condescending original post.

OneWorld22
20th Jul 2004, 09:48
Don't tell him but Vodafone are huge here as are O2!!!!

eal401
20th Jul 2004, 10:13
OneWorld22, LOL nice one!! :ok:

:p :p

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 10:20
I think people are under the impression that if the demographic population of the North ever reaches 50.001% in favour of those with a Catholic faith that it will just be handed back over to the Irish government.

From what I can see, most of the country don't want the hassle of the Ulster Scots bringing their perceived problems with the world down here, it will serve no benefit to anyone other then the extreme minority with nationilist ideals.
Simply put, your problem, you created it, your welcome to keep it!
A lot of people are making a lot of Money from cross border trading.

Unfortunately that means we cannot lay claim to Bushmills which is based in County Antrim, s'pose will just have to settle with a bottle of Jameson.

Personally I have no problem with the BritishNews papers laying claim to whichever Primadonna they want, you have to laugh though when Eddie Irvine was winning for Ferrari he was British but when he lost he was Irish!

futurepilot2004
20th Jul 2004, 10:28
"Don't tell him but Vodafone are huge here as are O2!!!!"

If your phone is British and your with O2 or Vodafone you buy all the credit you like here........it won`t work!

eal401
20th Jul 2004, 10:38
So, futurepilot2004, do you tell that to these poor saps unfortunate enough to have dared enter your shop, or are you just rude and unhelpful?

futurepilot2004
20th Jul 2004, 10:42
No, I inform them that no shop to my knowledge sells foreign phone cards and it is a that point where most give a confused look and ask why we don`t sell the cards, and then we have to explain AGAIN that we don`t sell British phone cards. Half of the people walk out of the shop confused as to why I was refering to foreign phone cards for while the other half stay put asking questions until we basically have to give them a history lesson.

longarm
20th Jul 2004, 11:20
Desert Nomad,

Yes Bushmills is on the North Antrim coast. But it is in Northern Ireland and not the Republic of Ireland.

Ropey Pilot
20th Jul 2004, 11:28
Whilst you do have a valid point (annoys me as a Scot when Aberdeen were a 'British' team when they won in Europe - many years ago - whilst Man U are 'English').

However you obviously have an axe to grind with everyone who comes into your shop and I'm sure you take pleasure in correcting these people otherwise you would not simply use the terms 'foreign' and following the confusion launch into your personal re-education programme.

If it really did wind you up that much why not simply reply "I'm sorry but we don't deal with British currency/phonecards here as Ireland is not part of the UK". Self explanatory, no further history lesson required but also no inner sense of satisfaction when you see confused faces not quite understanding why they were requesting foreign phonecards. If they didn't understand the distinction before you have done nothing to clarify it and, in fact made the confusion worse.

To be fair to them also, I am well aware of Ireland's status (and served North of the border before the IRA promised to stop shooting at us) but would not refer to the Irish as 'foreigners'. Don't know why - maybe it's the language - but there you go.

And as has alredy been said, if someone asks you if you accept Sterling they alredy know its not the local currency - I certainly don't ask every time I go to Tescos in Manchester!


Please note other supermarkets are available:p

panda-k-bear
20th Jul 2004, 11:38
Oh dear oh dear, what is this place coming to?

Indeed Panda-k-bear, what is this place coming to with me having to delete most of your post due to personal attack..... :rolleyes:
Please read the Jetblast Rules of Engagement (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83225) as you seem to be unclear about what is acceptable on this forum.

Looks like some others here might also benefit from refreshing their memories on that score BTW. This is the second Mod attempt at keeping this thread civilised. Next move will be the padlock. How childish is that?

flapsforty
ModBod

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 12:31
futurepilot2004

I wasn't aware Nambia was part of Ireland! Any English/Welsh man who tries to spend Sterling in your shop in Nambia should be told where to go.

However, many places in Northern Ireland, and Enland, Scotland and Wales accept Irish Monies (Euros), and I have been in Dublin and had Sterling accepted.

You may be surprised that at the end of the day the 'British Isles' (Great Britain & Ireland) are surprisingly close, and i ain't talking distance :)

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 12:34
Ah common, you can possibly understand his predicament when you relate it to your own experience with tourists,
Anyone who lives in any capital city has to deal with tourists all the time, personally I have been out drinking with American tourists who try to go and order a round of single malt Irish Scotch Whiskey, and actually do believe in Lerachauns and all fall for all the other diddily daddly irish stuff sold to touists.

Its all harmless stuff, not offensive and should be shrugged off with a smile that it deserves.

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 12:36
Oh and one more thing! the great National Irish drink, Guinness, is not, and never has been Irish! It has always been known as Guinness GB, founded in Dublin UK and subsequently moved to London! :)

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 12:38
And moved back to St James gate from where it originated, a couple of months ago were it rightfully belongs!

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 12:40
OOO another 1 4 u!

What is tuned on your tv? You wouldn't possibly have the bbc on there would you!? go on admitt it, you do don't you...

And y don't i need my passport to travel into the country?

indeed, but it is still under the title of Guinness GB

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 12:46
Personally I have CNN on TV
Don't know where you got the Guinness GB thing, I don't recall ever seeing the Royal Standard on it!


The Story Of Guinness

On the last day of December 1759 a determined young man named Arthur Guinness rode through the gate of an old, dilapidated ill-equipped brewery sited on a small strip of land on Dublin's James's Street. He had just signed a lease on the property for 9,000 years at £45 per annum. His friends shook their heads in disbelief.

For ten years, Mark Rainsford's Ale Brewery (for such it was) had been on the Market and nobody had shown any interest in it. The Street was already festooned with similar small breweries, all attracted to this spot by a good supply of water. Throughout the city of Dublin there were about 70 breweries at that time, all, it must be assumed, small. Mr. Guinness's newly acquired brewery was no more than average. But Arthur was about to change all of that. He was 34 years old. He knew that the products of this teeming, almost domestic, industry were highly unsatisfactory. Trade fell off badly when import regulations which favoured the London Porter breweries, were prolonged.

At that time, beer was almost unknown in rural Ireland where whiskey, gin and poteen were the alcoholic drinks most readily available. In spite of this and the poor quality of beeravailablee in larger centers link Dublin, it wasrecognizedd, paradoxically, that brewing - although constantly under threat from imports - was probably the most prosperous of the very few industries in Ireland at that time.

In addition to ales, Arthur Guinness brewed a beer relatively new to Ireland that contained roasted barley which gave it a characteristically dark colour. This brew became known as "porter" so named because of its popularity with the porters and stevedores of Covent Garden and Billingsgate in London. "Porter" had been developed in London some years earlier and was imported into Dublin to the detriment of local brews. Arthur Guinness finally had to choose between porter or the traditional Dublin ales. Deciding to tackle the English brewers at their own game, Arthur tried his hand at porter. He brewed the deep, rich beverage so well that he eventually ousted all imports from the Irish market, captured a share of the English trade andrevolutionizedd the brewing industry.

The word Stout was added in the early 1820's as an adjective, qualifying the noun "porter". An "extra stout porter" was a stronger and more full bodied variety. "Stout" evolved as a noun in its own right, as did the family name of Guinness. In 1825 Guinness Stout was available abroad, and by 1838, Guinness' St. James's Gate Brewery was the largest in Ireland. In 1881, the annual production of Guinness brewed had surpassed one million barrels a year and by 1914, St. James's Gate was the world's largest brewery.

Today, Arthur Guinness would have been proud of St. James's Gate. No longer the largest (although still the largest Stout brewery) it is certainly one of the most modern breweries. Guinness is now also brewed in 35 countries around the world, but all these overseas brews must contain a flavoured extract brewed here at St. James's Gate. So the very special brewing skills of Arthur's brewery, remain at the heart of every one of the 10 million glasses of Guinness enjoyed every day across the world

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 12:51
all very interesting, but ireland was still part of britain in 1759, and the guinness brand was given the title of guinness gb

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 12:54
By that reasoning does that mean that all of my grand parents and ancestors are still Brits?

Send Clowns
20th Jul 2004, 12:54
Is that right, Drap air? Note also that stout is an English invention, I believe first brewed when the ingredients of the local beer were not available due to a shortage (was it a seige?). The best stout I have tried is brewed in England not Ireland, though it is not often I will compliment anything from Yorkshire :p

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 12:56
Football and Tennis are English inventions, but you are useless at them aswell!

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 13:03
Watchoutbelow

so was cricket, so keep quiet!

and yes i suppose that would mean your ancesters are british, but also irish

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 13:14
that would mean your ancesters are british, but also irish

Well I know my grandfather would have caused more then a bloody nose for an accusation less then that!

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 13:23
I see your point - but the facts are true and history can not be changed! If someone was born in Dublin, around say, 1759, then they would be Irish, but since Ireland was part of Britain, they are also British.

Same way I was born in Cardiff, so I am Welsh, but Wales is part of Britain, so i'm British.

How can you possibly argue with that?

answer=42
20th Jul 2004, 13:25
drap-air

believe (and squat to be corrected) that you are not quite right to state that:
but ireland was still part of britain in 1759,
as the Act of Union between Britain and Ireland was only passed in 1801.

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 13:30
There is some confusion,

As I believe it, George II (1683-1760), was the king of Great Britain which included Ireland

answer=42
20th Jul 2004, 13:37
nyet, old boy.
Although the Kings and Queens of England styled themselves Kings of Ireland or Lords of Ireland from ooh sometime before Elizabeth (in the same way that they styled themselved Kings of France), this did not imply that Ireland was part of England (then after 1707 Britain). This remained the case even after the rule of the Kings of England / Britain became a reality and more than just a claim. The original Union Flag from 1707 to 1801 did not have St Patrick's Cross in it and Ireland had its own Parliament.

Am I right to say that the area between high and low tide marks around Northern Ireland belong to the Republic?

Drap-air
20th Jul 2004, 13:42
if what you say is true, i stand corrected! however i have never heard the tide tale before

LowNSlow
20th Jul 2004, 13:44
futurepilot I'm surprised that you don't exchange Euros for Pounds. Every shop and bar in Eire that I went to visiting Mrs. LNS's family were more than happy to exchange Punts for Pounds at a not unreasonable rate. Given the number of Brit resident Irish visitng home it was hardly surprising really. Maybe this has tapered off due to the reverse diaspora of the last five years thus discouraging shopkeepers like yourself to bother with foreign money. I haven't bothered trying to exchange Pounds since the Euro came into play as I usually have a pocket full of the things from my mainland travels anyway. Maybe I'll try next time and see what the general reaction is.

answer=42
20th Jul 2004, 13:47
The tricky bit is the distinction between the idea of 'regal overlordship' and that of the 'nation state'. We have the French Revolution to thank for the latter idea.

LnS
Dunno about Ireland but since the Euro has come along, here in Bennylux a lot fewer shops accept the Quid or the Buck, even at ripoff rates.

eal401
20th Jul 2004, 14:34
Next move will be the padlock. How childish is that?
Given the tone of the original post, I'm surprised it was allowed this far.

As for the Guiness, I've not drank any since the move to all Irish brew. Shameful I know! Is there a noticable difference?

X-QUORK
20th Jul 2004, 14:37
I'm one of those Brits with the dodgy Irish ancestory....proper Irish surname though and I know the last proper Irish blood we had was mid 19th century....all been a bit diluted since...but then most of us have Brits are mongrels of some sort.

I can understand that it must be annoying when UK tourists try spending Stirling in Irish shops - and probably comes across as quite arrogant behaviour, but in truth I expect it's more likely that these people are just a bit ignorant (and dare I say it - thick).

My friendly advice to the patriotic Irish shop keeper:

Politely point out the error of their ways, point them in the direction of the nearest Bank where they can purchase Euros, take their money,wish them a pleasant holiday and that you hope to see them again sometime. Feel warm on the inside that you've just managed to palm off some plastic Unicorn toy for 20 Euros when it only cost you 2 and that an Englishman just made you wealthier.

Regards

X-Q:ok:

Loki
20th Jul 2004, 21:27
If you are Irish, you aren`t British (although my friends from the North tell me they are.....some of them)

Nevertheless, Ireland is one of the constituent parts of the British Isles (a big bit too) and is more representative ethnically of true Britishness by virtue of being largely peopled by Celts. `Tis quite amusing to reflect that England is the odd one out!

Apart from all that we would be considerably impoverished if it were not for the cultural contribution made to British life by the Irish.........I`m sure any Ppruner can ratlle off a list of the famous.

I consider the Irish to be british with a small b, and in any case, given the close (and admittedly not always happy) relationship with us worthy of honorary Britishness.........a courtesy we may have to extend to many other countries in Europe ere long and with whom we have far less in common.

Watchoutbelow
20th Jul 2004, 22:42
Thats very nice of you Loki, thank you!

However I would consider most of you folks to be Irish with a big I!!

But you are right about one thing, we do seem to be the only two nations that are pretty much on the same wavelength in the whole of Europe!
And I hereby grant you honorary Irishness, now run along now and have yerself a fine glass of Jameson and Ginger Ale!

Vortex what...ouch!
21st Jul 2004, 01:54
If your phone is British and your with O2 or Vodafone you buy all the credit you like here........it won`t work!
Not sure about O2 but you will find you can top up a Vodafone sim from any country in any other country that has Vodafone. Called globalisation. Clever stuff eh?:ok:

Irelander
21st Jul 2004, 02:49
Bejazis ‘Watchoutbelow’

While you’re lashin’ out all those Irish passports with the complementary glasses of ‘Jemmy’ you may pin a bit of a medal up on yourself with a big shiny capital ‘B’ in the middle of it.

Never let it be said that a ‘Mick’ would stand idly by while his neighbour was consigned to the ignominious depths of the ‘lower case’

Go off there with yourself like a good fella’ and have a pint of bitter on me
…and don’t be mindin’ yer’man tryin’ to jam his shillelagh in yer spokes with all that fancy talk of little ‘b’s

Irelander

eal401
21st Jul 2004, 07:51
I`m sure any Ppruner can ratlle off a list of the famous.
Absolutely!!

1) Pierce Brosnan
2) James Joyce
3) er......
4) Oh yeah, Dave Allen (he was Irish wasn't he?)
5) um......
6) feeling a bit silly now.......
7) Thought Colin Farrell was a Yank....

HEELP!!!!!! :}

Ooh ooh, got another one, Roy Keane. Thought I'd have thought the Irish would want to keep that one a bit quiet. ;)

Tom the Tenor
21st Jul 2004, 09:32
Nope, Roy Keane is more correctly from The People's Republic of Cork!

Corcaigh Abu! :)

Elwood Senese
21st Jul 2004, 12:55
futurepilot2004

Why do you feel the need to "give people a history lesson"? Perhaps if you be so kind as to give me a potted version, maybe then I would understand..

As a Mancunian who has lived in Ireland for a few years now, I have encountered prejudice, albeit limited, from people like you. (Apologies in advance if you are a different person than the one portrayed in your post.) It's something I've learned to accept and live with though it still rankles me from time to time.

During the World Cup I was in a bar to watch the quarter finals and it was a microcosm of Portugal - though it was Heineken not Superbock fuelling the animosity. Anyone who was in the Hole in the Wall that night will know me... the next game it was Portugal who?

In the same vein a colleague from the US came into work one Monday morning and said he didn't realise how many French people were living in Dublin. Yet come August it will be the Premiership has started, grand. The Man Utd., Liverpool, Leeds, etc.. etc. shirts will be out in force. The overt banter and slagging I can take - hypocrisy is another thing.

Next time someone asks for a 'foreign' 'phone card conceivably you would be so good as to show some tolerance and understand that tourists, who, incidentally, get fleeced, sometimes pack their brains with the luggage.

Good luck with the career.

OneWorld22
21st Jul 2004, 13:06
Come now, you know that it has worked both ways in the past.

And I'm quite sure there was never any signs in windows in Ireland saying,

"No British, Blacks or Dogs"

panda-k-bear
21st Jul 2004, 13:14
Have to issue an apology, folks. I was out of line and overstepped the mark - I realise it and am grown up enough to admit it.

Just had a bad day and the heckles were already up.

Sorry, flaps.

It won't happen again......
luv n kisses
p-k-b

oscarh
21st Jul 2004, 16:13
Pierce Brosnan and Colin Farrell.......er, who?

eal401
21st Jul 2004, 16:15
You must have heard of one of them oscarh? :p

five iron
21st Jul 2004, 16:33
This looks like a thread started to antagonise the British (excluding the Rep.Ir!!!!!) ppruners. I don't think it very fair to get stroppy just becasue some one asked for a phone card.

And as for foreign currency, don't you have that awfully foreign EURO over there??

mutt
21st Jul 2004, 20:14
futurepilot2004.

Have you ever thought about what Ireland would be like today without the British influence?

I will proudly stand up and say that my father who came from the slums of Limerick served in the RAF.

Mutt.

Loki
21st Jul 2004, 20:30
Watchout below:

Thanks. To celebrate I needed a tincture or two....the best I could do was an infusion of Czech lager. When I get out next, I promise I`ll try something more appropriate.

I suppose I`ll have to change my user name to something more Celtic, though I`m attached to the Norse identity I currently use....any suggestions.

Watchoutbelow
21st Jul 2004, 20:59
Not to worry McLocky

Out of interest, I see you live in Asgard, is that a place? Or how did you come about that name?

futurepilot2004
21st Jul 2004, 21:03
"Have you ever thought about what Ireland would be like today without the British influence?"

I`m not denying that Britain has had a impact on Ireland but that doesn`t change the fact that its not part of Britain anymore and that some people are ignorant of this.

Watchoutbelow
21st Jul 2004, 21:07
"Have you ever thought about what Ireland would be like today without the British influence?"

Are you implying that the British Influence on Ireland was a good thing for the country?
Cause that will just open up a whole can of worms.

Davaar
21st Jul 2004, 21:36
mutt! Was his first or, as we used to say, Christian name "Paddy"? I think I knew him.

Danny
21st Jul 2004, 23:54

Metro man
21st Jul 2004, 23:57
I'm of Irish descent ,carry an Irish passport and will admit that British rule benifitted Ireland greatly ,without it Eire today would be a poor ,backward ,agricultural country along the lines of Albania instead of a modern ,stable ,prosperous democracy in eighth place on the UN human development index.

I can remember in the early 1970s a lot of Irish being poor white trash and can understand the "No Irish" signs in boarding house windows.

Haven't we come a long way since.I remember seeing an advert in an Australian newspaper for construction workers for Ireland.Twenty years ago the idea would have been laughed at. Today the Irish navvy has disappeared from British building sites ,the only Irish left being site managers.

We got a start from the British and made a good go of it ,and can hold our heads high in the modern world ,along with the likes of Singapore. Its a pity more of Britains ex colonies haven't done as well ,but they can't blame the British for their own failings.

Davaar
22nd Jul 2004, 00:01
Same comment. It will bring the same replies.

futurepilot2004
22nd Jul 2004, 00:03
"I can remember in the early 1970s a lot of Irish being poor white trash and can understand the "No Irish" signs in boarding house windows."

you can understand "no irish" signs being placed in windows???? As you say, your of Irish decent and therefore not Irish(Irish passports are among the easiest ones to get in the world so dont start).No real Irish person can justify a statment like the ones posted around Britain. Your Australian not Irish, never forget that.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Danny
22nd Jul 2004, 00:12
Precisely why I keep renewing the 'hamsters wheel' (so to speak) for those who know how to fix the ills of the world and are prepared to argue ad-nauseum on the best way to do it! :rolleyes:

AOG-YYZ
22nd Jul 2004, 00:16
The island of Ireland is part and parcel of the "British Isles". Britain is the anceint name given to the Islands and Great Britain (Grand Bretagn) is the description the Romans gave the islands to differentiate between what is today Brittany.

As an asside to the Irish island, the only invading people not to assimilate with the Irish population are from what is now England, including it's vassel states of Scotland and Wales. In fact six counties of the Irish Province of Ulster are still occupied, as they have been for 700 + years by the Saxon English.

Metro man
22nd Jul 2004, 00:28
I went to school in a port town with services across the Irish Sea and saw first hand some of what came off the boat ,and I would not have wanted them living upstairs from me.

Today those leaving Ireland for work ,a choice not a necessity are likely to be well qualified , command decent salaries and be welcome in any rented accommodation. It just shows how much the Irish have advanced in a relatively short time.

I'm proud of my Irish heritage ,but not going to gloss over how things used to be. I could live in Ireland quite happily ,if it wasn't for the cold. Aussie climate much nicer !

West Coast
22nd Jul 2004, 00:58
Northern Ireland. Occupied or otherwise.


The UK's place in the new world order. Its place as a regional leader, is it being usurped by France in that role?


Discuss

Taildragger55
22nd Jul 2004, 08:21
Oh God, why do people start these threads to allow bigoted Irish people to bicker with bigoted British people.

Irish history has had it's share of nastiness, often with Irish people helping be nasty to their own (when they weren't helping be nasty in the colonies) It's history, live with it.

Did Ireland benefit from being close to the UK? Yes and no. Economically no, it was kept poor during the colonial period. All colonies were pillaged and kept poor, that was the idea. Culturally? Possibly. Although having had a recent holiday in France, with a great culture, marvellous food, and a liberal flying culture, I ended up wishing Wellington had come second, even though a third of his troops were Irish. (TV apart-never say a bad word about the BBC in my presence, nothing compares internationally.)

The recent Irish prosperity has come from two things: The EU (I expect moans here from Little Englanders. Tough, agricultural countries have always been favoured by the EU.) Being in the EU also took us away from an obsession with the UK and gave us confidence to trade internationally.
A second, and dominant factor has been US style economic liberalisation, low taxes and a pro business economy.

At present Ireland and the UK have never been more comfortable with each other. That is a marvellous thing, largely a product of hard work by Messers Blair and Aherne, and should be celebrated. Maybe we import too much of UK yob culture, including football (yuck) but I have no doubt we could develop our own yobs if the UK was not there.

Let's stop whinging about each other, keep a close but separate identity, and get on with it.

tony draper
22nd Jul 2004, 08:27
Geologically speaking it is, but then part of Scotland is actually a bit of Canada,or Canada is a bit of Scotland, depends which way one looks at it.
:rolleyes:

OneWorld22
22nd Jul 2004, 08:48
Good post taildragger. The two countries have an extremely good relationship now, started really by Major and Reynolds who developed the relationship dramatically from what it was with Haughey and Maggie!

And I have no doubt that the two countries will become closer in europe as they have similar economic beliefe and will be fighting the socialist tending economic policies favoured by France and Germany.

The good news there is the very successful Irish Finance Minister over the past number of years, Charlie McCreevy is now becomming Ireland's next EU commisioner. Charlie was very right of centre economically speaking. Tight fiscal controls and low tax/controlled spending. He gave the EU two fingers over their demands for Ireland to raise corporation taxes and has fought with them on many other things as well.

He would have been a supporter of the deputy Irish PM's Mary Harney's comments that "Ireland is closer to Boston then Berlin"

Taildragger55
22nd Jul 2004, 09:08
Thanks One World for the kind word.

I briefly worked for the bould Charlie in the late 1970''s.

A decent bloke, but as you value your wealth, never, ever, play poker with the man.

Hope we can keep a balance between economic growth and decent social services. The much maligned French provide a magnificent health service to everyone for the same cost per head as the US, even if their employment taxes are deranged.

Capt.KAOS
22nd Jul 2004, 11:30
As usual the honorable Proon moody moddies at the first sign of an interesting debate feel the urge to throw it all together so that it becomes an uninteresting, inextricable pile of messages and then close it before it gets real interesting even before we get to the unassailable, forbidden issue. Too bad, too bloody bad. There are a lot of excellent debaters on this esteemed forum, even when I don't agree with them, I'm sure interested to hear their opinion, even if it's personal and opinionated.

Oh well, back to more important issues, like "With What Finger Do You Pick Your Nose?"

:hmm: :rolleyes: :(

Parapunter
22nd Jul 2004, 11:34
Nahhh, the Ford Orion was definitely better than the Escort, more room in the boot...

answer=42
22nd Jul 2004, 11:41
Some great posts from Traildragger and OneWorld.

TD, I didn't know but can well believe that there were so many Irishmen in Wellington's army. I did know that there were many Irishmen in Napoleon's army and that many died on the retreat from Moscow. So Irishmen fought on both sides.

In the 1840s and 1850s, the potato harvest failed not only in Ireland but across much of northern Europe, notably in Scandinavia. Although many people emigrated to the USA and elsewhere to escape hunger, I don't believe that there was starvation except in Ireland. And this was the case even in Norway, which was in Union under the Swedish Crown.

I thought that much of the benefit that Ireland got from the EU was from the structural/regional funds, as well as agricultural subsidies. The structural/regional funds are going to shrink fast now and even the agric subsidies are going to get smaller but more slowly, thanks to Chirac.

And while I'm slagging off Chirac, I note that the frogs are trying to cut their taxes (and spending on health service prescriptions) but not much is going to happen under the present Prez.

flapsforty
22nd Jul 2004, 12:18
KAOS, it's funny how perspectives can differ, depending on ones position.

Yes merges are never perfect and often a pain. They also keep the work doable for us, by keeping the problems concentrated on one thread. Were it not for people like you who often ignore the rules, we wouldn't need to merge.

Firstly, those threads were not merged until after the racist one was locked, so before you start slinging mud, try getting your facts right for a change.

Secondly..... Instead of many other, more enjoyable things I could have done yesterday afternoon, I spent most of my time at the keyboard. Trying to keep viable a discussion that had a lot of merit. Trying to keep the thread within the bounds of the forum rules. Making the effort of naming specifically what it was that would get the thread closed if people didn't stop abusing the bandwith.
Spending my free time editing the worst posts, because just like you, I enjoy a good debate on an interesting subject.

I failed, depite my best efforts.
Because some people, knowingly and willfully, choose to ignore the guidelines.

Then you show up with your tired martyr act and accuse the Mods of ruining the debate?
Your accusations are so far off base that it's pathetic.
Words fail me.
Well they don't actually ;) but if I wrote here what I really think of your thought processes, your manners and your social intelligence I'd have to disqualify myself.
You make you sure you enjoy your hamster wheel now. :ok:

Grandpa
22nd Jul 2004, 12:34
Wonder why my typing is printed now on Pprune, while I couldn't do it yesterday.......................

So I'm late to tell you I had the opportunity to watch Michael Moore's 9/11 two weeks ago in a 300 seats cinema in Quartier Latin.

It was full up, many American and other nations tourists were there, along with French spectators.

At the end the audience burst into applauses.

Before watching this film, I had read some critics in French daylies, general motto was "Good but could have been better", so I was holding my enthusiasm, but I couldn't refrain from being taken and convinced by MM witty images.

MM made me cry with the KIA soldier's mother demonstrating against the war.

MM made me laugh at the shy Representants whom he asked why only one of them had a son in Iraq.

MM made me understand how much close Bin Laden's and Bush's family are, and how much private interests are prevailing when the question of young soldier's blood is concerned.

A clear and direct demonstration which was badly needed.

Thank you Michael Moore!

I don't know what are the statistics about final spectators affluence, but I think we can say this is allready a big success in a category of film which never met such a public.

Capt.KAOS
22nd Jul 2004, 13:06
Well they don't actually but if I wrote here what I really think of your thought processes, your manners and your social intelligence I'd have to disqualify myself. You make you sure you enjoy your hamster wheel now. Well Flaps, JROE doesn't apply for Moddies then? The splinter and the eye, right?
KAOS, it's funny how perspectives can differ, depending on ones position. Indeed, I read the thread and have seen worse, or maybe some messages have been deleted?

I appreciate moderating consumes a lot of ones free time, however it's a free choice I guess and when sometime people are getting carried away, so what? Nothing to get your knickers in a knot.

The ring is yours.

airship
22nd Jul 2004, 21:12
I'm a little confused too...:confused: Why merge another thread which is where the problems arose this time, with Speakers Corner II which was behaving itself relatively well?! Is Speakers Corner today considered a dump, so that when any sh!t appears elsewhere in JB, it is shovelled in here without a second thought? :*

Where is the logic in the last merger, the end of SC II and the beginning of SC III? I offer for your consideration:

Speakers Corner II, 1st post 2nd July 2004
Speakers Corner II, last post 21st July 2004 21.47

then,

Speakers Corner III, 1st post 19th April 2004 (understandable, announced the rules of engagement etc.)
Speakers Corner III, 2nd post 19th July 2004 21.31

No effort to separate posts from the other offending thread (not SC II) even from the new SC III one.

Either our esteemed mods have a problem with the database since the new server came online, or else they should just make it clear that people who wish to contribute to Speakers Corner are no longer welcome and have done with. :rolleyes:

Unless one is banned forthwith, one may nevertheless continue to contribute to the other less serious but sometimes amusing threads elsewhere on JB... :hmm:

Danny
22nd Jul 2004, 23:37
Looks like this one got off to a bad start due to someone accidentally merging older threads with this newer one. Just closing it and starting no. IV so you can all getback into the swing! :rolleyes: