BMI baby in major Birmingham expansion

[LTNman]

BBC have said that BMI Baby will launch 20 new routes out of Birmingham

[Faulty]

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3237820

[Mike16]

Hi All


Well good news for BHX people, but i am a little lost here ? with BMIbaby having a base 40 mins away, which is also quite large, how can they compete with each other?
At EMA quite a few pax are from BHX area? will bmibaby harm there EMA base by doing this ?
Or is the plan to move to BHX all together ?


Take care all

Mike

[alterego]

Mike

This is expansion they have announced. No one has made any comments to effect NEMA. Its still Baby's main base.

Obviously the men with the big picture believe both can run without detriment to each other.

[Flightmapping]

Any ideas about possible cities? Would baby have a better go at places Lite have abandoned - BFS, AMS, GVA and CDG? All except CDG have no more than one airline in competition from BHX.

20 new routes would surely make them the largest carrier at BHX overnight? They must have been given a good deal on handling fees, but even so with TOM just down the road aswell, and Flybe & Lite already well established, this all sounds like saturation to me, unless they vacate NEMA, which doesn't seem to be the plan.

[Copenhagen]

With no new aircraft ordered we can expect a similar loss from other bases - most probably EMA.

Considering that WW was a defensive reaction to EZY's arrival at EMA where does this leave their reason for existing?

[alterego]

Copenhagen

Management have been saying for months that fleet expansion is planned. Won't ordrer new A/c I doubt but will probably lease some as has been discussed on other forums.

[egnxema]

Any WW shrinkage at EMA will be due to FR and EZY expansion. I think the biggest threat is to MyLite at BHX.

[lawnmowerman]

Sounds like a head-on price war looming in the midlands

Any idea of destinations or frequencies yet?

[almost professional]

egnxema
that only works if we get the extra EZY/FR traffic-still waiting for extra Easy, unless you know something?
(might be more info about the terminal extension soon too)

[Wizzy the Wizz]

Doubt Lite will be up for a price war - however their targetting the spanish routes more. Maybe they can happily co-exist?

[egnxema]

Wizzy - I feel that baby will virtually mirror the existing MyLite schedules to Spain. Spain has been the consistant feature for both airlines.

It is rumoured in another forum that bmi mainline will be taking over certain baby routes at MAN and the routes transfered to BHX.

I guess next week all will be revealed.

[karnak]

:O Oh dear Mike you really have it in for bmb don't you. What is the matter are you a 'little boy' threratened. Baby is growing they have a good product and isn't it nice to hear of NEW JOB not CUTS in our business!!!!!!!!!!!

[brabazon]

karnak

Have they ordered some new aircraft or are they just shuffling the pack? I haven't seen any announcements.

[skyclamp]

I fly for baby from another base and since all our flights are consantly chokka full, there is no surprise that the baby needs to grow and expand. To coin a phrase "to push/expand the boundaries of it's creche"
If there's room for baby in BHX the management would be stupid not to exploit it.
As far as I know the NEMA base will stay the same size as it is.
Good luck to all applicants as there'll be a big recruitment soon.

skyclamp

[bmibaby.com]

As far as I'm aware, the airline is going to have a massive reshuffle over the winter season, I've heard that the NEMA base will either remain with six based aircraft, or more will arrive, being relocated from other bases.

I've also heard this rumour that bmi mainline are to take over all Manchester flying. I think this makes sense, as bmi mainline continue to expand their longhaul flying and other Star Alliance members begin flights to MAN, it does create a hub opportunity at the airport - with connections & Star's "seamless travel opportunities".

According to the company's rumor mill, I've heard that the airline will be taking either more 737-300s (there are no plans to add any -500s or -400s which we've seen at baby in the past) or possibly making a new aircraft order. Although one Fokker 100 will definately be providing back up and/or providing some services out of LBA.

[skyclamp]

I've also heard this rumour that bmi mainline are to take over all Manchester flying.

Not so sure about that.
You can book flights right through the winter from the baby website from MAN to any of their destinations.

[ALLMCC]

If mainline take over all MAN ops, what will happen to the baby BFS route? - will this transfer to BHD and be operated by mainline alongside the LHR service from there?

If so, would seem to make sense with baby in turn replacing the MAN - BFS with BHX - BFS.

[JobsaGoodun]

Ohh won't the next few months be interesting.

Here is my take on this, believeable or not!

It has been known for sometime that both BMI and Flybe have never been ones to step on each others toes and I think that is continuing under what some have labelled as a 'gentlemans agreement' between Mr Bishop and Mr French.

BMI know that the MANBHD route is more popular than BFS. It is BA's last route out of BHD and Flybe want it, knowing full well that it is very profitable!, however not at the expense of a head to head with Bmibaby. Could it be that the change of routes from BMIbaby to BMI mainline could result in Flybe gaining access to MAN. This would allow Flybe to push BA out of the BHD route and expand with services to the Channel Islands, Scotland, Southampton (already announced), Exeter, etc. I think so, and in order for Flybe to gain access to MAN, as it has wanted for some time, BMIbaby has, under a 'gentlemans agreement' been given access to BHX.

If this is anywhere near accurate then I think it unlikely that BMIbaby will operate any routes in competition with Flybe. Far more likely that BMIbaby will operate the lengthy routes that Flybe simply cannot reach with their 146's (ie) AGP/ALC/MJV/BCN/NCE.....maybe I smell a codeshare agreement coming on!

This may give Flybe some more time to review the 146 debate and would provide security for both firms against the likes of Easy and Ryanair.

Just a thought, or do i suffer from an overactive imagination!

[Roidelstein]

That would be pretty unusual though, wouldn't it? A codeshare between 2 lo-cost airlines.

[egnxema]

Your imagination, however over or under active, makes interesting reading! :ok:

[ALLMCC]

Jobs

What you say might not be too far from the truth - seem to recall a statement Flybe issued to a local travel trade rag a few months ago stating that they were evaluating new routes from BHD to MAN, MME & either Norwich or Cambridge and said details would follow later.

However, developing the debate further, if baby decide to include BFS in their routes to be announced from BHX next week, surely this will bring them into a head to head situation with Flybe on their BHD - BHX which apparently is one of busiest sectors in their network.

The plot thickens eh!

[alterego]

I think you all could be getting ahead of yourselves a bit too much.

I don't have the inside knowledge but I do know that the current command upgrade positions are Man, Mme and I guess that Bhx is now in the running.

Of course we all know that the Virgin merger hasn't been mentioned this week!

Time will tell.

[MarkD]

Mainline BMI traffic from MAN to ORK and other points in Ireland would be welcome for connections to BMs longhaul (say to CYYZ) since Baby doesn't transfer bags :)

[karnak]

This does make very interesting reading - why are people threatened by this????? The routes will be out this week then what next have you heard about the transatlantic low frills flights originating in Germany with a UK stop ?????German wings + Baby?????

[Ian Farquharson]

First lot of routes to go on sale tomorrow at 11.00am !

Ian

[JAMESBUK]

Any idea what routes BMI BABY will run out of BHX?

[EGAC_Ramper]

Though with regards to BHD-MAN route did the Chief of BMI not also state they were looking into flying the route too?? I'm sure I read it somewhere.Did read about Norwich,Cambridge and MAN with FlyBE out of BHD too.If BMI Baby do fly BHX-BFS then that would be a kick in the plums for FlyBE with BHX-BHD.Will be interested to see the routes announced and this post certainly makes interesting reading!!:ok:


Regards

[Barbara Cassani]

It's no secret Flybe want to dominate the domestic market and that is the top and bottom of it! Bishop and French are best of buddies and have always respected each others teritory. Flybe want a grip of Manchester and the agreement with regards to BHX allows them in. Flybe have no future with the long routes, their niche is high frequencies in the domestic market. They know they can push easy jet out without too much trouble, BA are just about gone and BMI are rubbing their hands together with glee. Flybe are close to securing LHR slots as part of BAA's reveiw over domestic operations and that will end any future competition in the domestic department. The baby and Easy will then battle the Med routes and that will just about conclude the battle of the LCC's.

[CentreFix25]

Flybe are close to securing LHR slots

So where are they going to fly to from LHR without standing on BMIs toes.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Did FlyBE not too long ago sell their slots for LHR?? Figure in the region of £5m.

[colegate]

Barbara Cassani, or whoever you are. I do not believe you. It is perfectly obvious that bmi see Manchester as being very important to their future. Second, there can be no agreemnet between air,ines to share or not share any markets without EU approval. If there is an agreement between bmi and flybe without EU approval it is blatantly illegal.

[GK430]

You'll find out the routes very soon.
Can't believe a few noses won't be put out when you do.

Just how many bums on seats can you sell to:confused:

[mmeteesside]

Very soon indeed, only another 6 minutes!

[egnxema]

BHX WW Destinations

ALC
AMS
BFS
EDI
GVA
NOC
AGP
PMI
PRG

All the normal.

Surely the NOC and BFS must indicate some swap of routes from Mylite?

e

[jmc757]

MyTravelLite have already dropped BFS from start of winter, but no word on NOC, always been a good route for them. But can it support 2 operators with large(ish) aircraft?

Good to see competition back on AMS...

[ALLMCC]

After all the fanfare the launch from BHX seems to be a bit of a damp squib - website states flights can be booked - not so.

Also timetables have not been loaded - surely they could have made sure everything was properly set up before release!

[stalling attitude]

cant help feeling that there will be some serious money lost by some of the loco's this next 12 months. Every airport pretty much has one all offering much the same destinations , the yields have got to be getting lower by the day.

[GK430]

So who are the winners now?

ALC- Most charter ops on route already
AMS - KLM
BFS - FlyBe to BHD
EDI - BACX/FlyBe
GVA
NOC - VZ
AGP - Most charter ops
PMI - Most charter ops
PRG - CSA are doing twice daily already.

Oh well, time will tell....................

[ALLMCC]

Can't imagine BFS & EDI will cause the folk at Flybe many sleepless nights! Baby proposing 2x weekdays against Flybe 7x weekdays on BFS and similar to EDI against 6x weekdays. Reportedly BHX - BHD and EDI are two of the best performing routes in Flybes' network and no doubt they will do whatever is necessary to maintain their strength on these routes.

Others have tried and failed to BFS (Maersk ok timings/high fares & My TravelLite mostly ok fares/rubbish timings). Also Baby will be competing against BACX to EDI. They will have their work cut out on these ones!

[EGAC_Ramper]

Will be interesting to see once the BHX-BFS route starts up how it affects the pax loads on FlyBE's BHX-BHD route which at the moment is regularly 80+ with as mentioned 7 daily flights.


Regards

[runawayedge]

Rumours are that Baby are pulling NOC EMA after summer schedule. Are Baby relocating that aircraft, seems crazy to compete with MYT on such a thin route!

[Smokie]

Also heard that Baby may base an a/c at either BHD or BFS.
Anyone got more info on this?

[Ian Farquharson]

The schedule from 07.01.05 :-

Dept To Flight No Arr Flight No Days

0600 AGP WW1031 1235 WW1032 Su
0650 BFS WW1021 0930 WW1022Mo/Tu/We/Th/Fr
0700 AMS WW1011 1040 WW1012 Mo/We/Th/Sa
0700 BFS WW1021 0930 WW1022 Sa
0700 EDI WW1001 0930 WW1002 Daily
0755 AMS WW1011 1100 WW1012 Tu/Fr
0900 EDI WW1005 1130 WW1006 Su
1000 AGP WW1031 1635 WW1032Mo/Tu/We/Th/Fr
1000 NOC WW1091 1250 WW1092 Sa
1000 ALC WW1041 1605 WW1042Mo/Tu/We/Th/Fr
1020 PRG WW1081 1510 WW1082 Sa
1100 ALC WW1041 1705 WW1042 Su
1120 NOC WW1091 1420 WW1092 Mo/We/Th/Fr
1130 PMI WW1051 1720 WW1052 Tu
1155 GVA WW1241 1635 WW1242 Sa
1200 AMS WW1011 1455 WW1012 Su
1320 AGP WW1031 1945 WW1032 Sa
1335 BFS WW1021 1600 WW1022 Su
1515 AMS WW1013 1815 WW1014 Mo/We/Th/Fr
1525 EDI WW1003 1755 WW1003 Su
1540 PMI WW1051 2130 WW1052 Sa
1630 AMS WW1013 1920 WW1014 Su
1635 AMS WW1013 2025 WW1014 Tu
1635 PRG WW1081 2120 WW1082 Mo/We/Th/Fr
1700 EDI WW1003 1930 WW1004Mo/Tu/We/Th/Fr
1735 BFS WW1023 2305 WW1024 Su
1825 PRG WW1081 2310 WW1082 Su
1845 BFS WW1023 2115 WW1024Mo/Tu/We/Th/Fr
1950 NOC WW1091 2240 WW1092 Su

[Smokie]

Hmmmmmmmmmm, not to sure about the 2 hrs 30 mins + to BFS !
Or are they return trips ??


Just a small point. In which case shouldn't that be, Ret, instead of, Arr ??

Looks good though. Should loose a fair few to Baby from our lot and probably a load of ex Maersk too, if they have not obtained positions already.

Best of luck to their new venture.

[EGAC_Ramper]

Also heard that Baby may base an a/c at either BHD or BFS.

Could you elaborate on this??I'd be interested to know more if it was to be based at BHD!!;)

[BDWW]

runawayedge,

Yes you are correct, NOC is being dropped from EMA this winter, i think its mainly because of there not being enough aircraft as winter time is when they are scheduled for maintenance. As NOC is probably the worst performing route out of EMA (however, it is alot busier now the summer holidays have started), something had to go. EDI and BFS frequencies are also down to twice daily for the winter. I have also heard that BCN will not be returning nor will TLS be operating through the winter.

[FougaMagister]

Staff from bmibaby were yesterday doing promotional photos in front of Terminal 1 at BHX. Official announcement very soon then? We already know who will be handling them (Aviance) and that there will be around 5 737s based at Brum. Rumour has it that they would fly over a dozen routes from here.

Competition? MyTravel Lite of course - but they only have 3 dedicated A320s. Ryanair have recently pulled out of BHX in protest at the "surprise" landing fee hike (which they always knew would happen after 2 years) and have only 2 rtn DUB flights/day.

BHX and the West Mids must have a bigger catchment area than EMA.

Go on, baby! :ok:

[ajamieson]

Staff from bmibaby were yesterday doing promotional photos in front of Terminal 1 at BHX. Official announcement very soon then? We already know who will be handling them (Aviance) and that there will be around 5 737s based at Brum. Rumour has it that they would fly over a dozen routes from here.
I believe you may have missed out a page of this thread :bored:

[ALLMCC]

Interesting strategy by Baby here - the start date for these new routes is over five months away - is this because of aircraft shortage or are they simply testing the water. Suspect a bit of both - when they look at advance bookings a few months down the line, they'll have a better idea of demand and be able to refine timings and frequencies or, in fact, decide if some of the routes may not be viable at all - routes where there is established competition from Flybe, BACX etc come to mind

Also, can't help feeling there will have to be some rationalistion between BHX and NEMA given their relative close proximity to each other.

[JobsaGoodun]

All I can say is that Baby will need to improve on their punctuality to be sure to take passengers from both Flybe and BACX on the Edinburgh and Belfast routes. Business travellers will not stand for lengthy delays for too long.

Flybe's frequency on both routes will certainly be a bonus to the regular traveller and bear in mind that a full pax load on a Q400 can easily compete in costs against full load on a 735. Another major factor is that the preference of BHD above BFS should not be underestimated.

How else could Flybe have competed against Easyjet for so long if they were not making money.

4yrs plus on the BRSBHD
3yrs plus on the NCLBHD
and more recently on the GLA/EDI-BHD run and they are still around.

I think that the fact that BHX has been opened up for Baby will almost definately clear the way for Flybe to start up on the MANBHD route.Expect this one for the start of the Summer '05 timetable.

[Simon Lumley]

Well according to the Derby Evening Telegraph on Tuesday night, BMI Baby management are very annoyed with Nottingham EMA management because they are constantly lowering their airport costs to attract more low-cost airlines in, like Easyjet and Ryanair.

BMI Baby said that they would never have opened up a new base at Birmingham if NEMA hadn't this obsession with getting in as many low-cost airlines based as possible.

Apparently BMI Baby wanted to put all of their money into NEMA and make it a super-hub. But they said that they didn't have much choice but to open up at Birmingham because Easyjet and Ryanair are constantly tring to snatch their routes from them which is obviously making some of their routes highly competitive so unpopular and therefore needing to be axed.

They said examples included Faro which had to be significantly reduced to just a Saturday departure from summer 2003 from daily in the winter 2002/3 season due to fierce competition from Easyjet. Other examples include Ryanair to Dublin and Gerona/Barcelona, and Easyjet to Alicante, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Malaga and Prague.

To be honest, I think BMI are hypocritical. They open up a new base at Brum where there is My Travel Lite doing almost half of their new routes like Knock, Alicante and Malaga. Plus they introduce Edinburgh when both Flybe and BA are on the route. And if thats not enough, they've got to compete with ThomsonFly at nearby Coventry on many of these routes... Talk about a bloodbath waiting to happen!! (As predicted my O'Leary - Ryanair boss).

And by the way, I think BMI Baby are an awful airline. I've flown with them from Glasgow to NEMA and Belfast Intl to NEMA. Well how shall I put it... the cabin cre are as rough as hell... they speak commonly and they look tatty in those awful t-shirts

And.. the prices are a rip-off... A cup of coffee or tea costs £1.50 where as Easyjet charge 60p. Also they can't seem to operate their aircraft properly.

[bmibaby.com]

Simon, I apologise if you found the crew to be "rough" or to not speak with an accent that you find pleasing to the ear (being born in Portugal, I have a Portuguese twang to my accent), but I can assure you that many people do like the bmibaby service that we have to offer.

As a crew member at bmibaby, and a passenger with EasyJet, I can inform you tea is not 60p on EasyJet, but is exactly the same price as the tea onboard our flights.

With regards to the uniform, these were designed in 2002, to give a "relaxed" approach to uniforms, and the airline has recieved negative feedback recently of these uniforms, and will be launching the new, smarter uniforms in September.

I have to disagree with baby management about NEMA attracting more no-frills airlines to the airport. If it's good for the airport, and the people that use the airport, then we ought to encourage airlines that can launch new routes, especially with baby not being strong enough to compete with Easy on FAO or Ryan on MJV.

What the future holds, I don't know ...

[U/S President]

With regards to the uniform, these were designed in 2002
bmibaby paid someone to design a plain tee-shirt and pair of black trousers combo?!:eek:

Check out MyTravelLite’s new retro ‘catch me if you can’ style uniforms if you want a bit of class when you fly low-cost.:cool:

[bmibaby.com]

As far as I'm aware the uniforms were "designed" by a group of cabin crew members at bmi regional, alongside the bmibaby management team and the uniform providers. The idea was to mimick Southwest's popular "relaxed" uniform, however, this has not been as popular with travellers in the UK & Europe, and is being replaced with a "smart, casual" uniform from September.

[egnxema]

Those that have been associated with EMA for some time will be well aware of BMA, British Midland, bmi and bmibaby's arrogant approach to "their" airport, maybe it is because Donington Hall is so close, or Sir Michael's house is not far away, but the airline has always seemed to claim posession of EMA, have shouted when they have not got their own way - but never done much very pro active to grow the airport.

If they want it so much maybe Si Michael could have bought it on either of the 2 occassions in the past when it has been up for sale.

If Simon's take on the situation is true then it just shows that baby don't believe they are big enough to play with the big boys, that they would rather throw their dummy out of the pram, or take their ball elsewhere shouting "Ner ner ne ner ner!"

If it bothers anyone, the airline I flew for were going to make BHX into the biggest superhub in the world - ever, but got upset when they spotted another aircraft on approach. But as it makes not one bit of difference what we "were" going to do I guess everyone cares about it as little as I do.

:ok:

[alterego]

Simon

What exactly do you mean...'can't operate their aircraft proprly'?

[karnak]

Simon - perhaps you need to focus on your language did you not realise that the English Language has many accents - WHAT IS YOURS?!?!

UNIFORM - It is quite tacky but the 'retro' mytravel one will look tatty when baby launch their new one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[pwalhx]

I have flown with Baby as a passenger from both Manchester and East Midlands quite regularly. On each occasion I have found the staff to be very pleasant and never had any problem with them.

As afar as the uniform is concerned yes it's plain, but whats the problem, if your paying £20 for a flight why you bothered what the staff wears.

As for the cost of a cup of tea, same on them all, I paid £1 to fly Jet2 to Belfast and £1.50 for tea on the flight, its something you have to accept, you may get the flight cheap but they got to make some money somewhere, if you are that bothered take your own drink with you.

Lets accept you arent going to get the same standards from a Lo-Co as you are a full fare airline.

[Barbara Cassani]

Heard from a reliable source last week that BMI baby and flybe are in talks for a buy out. The 146 will be disposed of leaving a fleet of 737's and Q400's. Certain routes will be swapped over to the 400 and others onto the 73. Flybe will retain the name and the 146 jockeys will transfer onto the 737. A fleet of 70 aircraft comprising of 40 Q400's and 30 737's will make Flybe the third largest low cost carrier in Europe.

[brabazon]

Barbara

So which bar have you been hanging around at? So who'd be the new MD - Jim French or Tony Davis?

Sounds a bit dubious to me.

[ALLMCC]

Interesting one this! - if true, would seem to make sense from a business perspective. However, would be even more interesting to see what would happen to the Belfast routes. Baby currently operate to/from BFS whereas Flybe operate to/from BHD.

If BFS lost Baby it would be unlikely to make a significant impact on them. However, a loss of Flybe at BHD would have serious implications bearing in mind they are the main carrier there.

If there is a buyout, who is buying? Neither is in the strongest position at present - would a merger not be more likely?

[crazypilot]

So what do people see as the future for MyTravelLite? They have a lot of competition now, certainly bmi baby on the majority of their Spanish routes, and I believe they are dropping their DUB route soon too since it isn't performing as well as the others. Couple that with only three aircraft and a completely screwed business plan -- somewhere between the with-frills carrier and the no-frills carrier. On top of that, their MD has just left...

CP

[Wizzy the Wizz]

I certainly wouldn't agree that MyTravelLite have a 'completely screwed business plan'. Sounds to me like they are focusing on delivering a much better service than their rivals. It's also obvious that dropping Dublin means they are working harder at being a specialist spanish operator.

Another thread today on pprune says they're tipped to survive because they aren't getting involved in the wrangling over who can be the most "low costy low cost" battle.

As to their MD leaving - bad timing agreed, but they are still in very safe hands.

[bmibaby.com]

MyTravelLite have a lot of fans in the Spanish home buyers market, in that it's offering a number of destinations that have either been under-served, or over-priced in the past, such as Murcia (now a standard lo-co destination), Almeria, and offering scheduled flights to the Canaries.

Whilst the financial problems of the parent company, and the new competition on some of their routes direct at BHX through baby, can't help the situation, they do have a sound product and a good route network, so ...