B-52 bombs Blackbushe

[arem]

Well - not quite, but this afternoon at Farnborough a B-52 was expected and seen preparing for a run by - However it was about 6 miles north and - as confirmed by a friend there - completed a low pass of the 'bushe.

So much for all the new fancy gadgetry - and puts new meaning to the phrase collateral damage

It was last seen scuttling away in the direction of Fairford. Wonder if it was the same guy who damaged the edge lights at FFD on Monday?

[Max Angle]

Yup, was on the ground at Farnborough waiting for it, never seen one in the air before. Went past miles away, I thought to myself that it was flying past b/bushe just as the announcer said much the same thing. Doesn't give you much confidence in the bombing capability of the US Air Force does it?.

B1B and a F117 Nighthawk both made passes down the runway so I suppose 2 out 3 isn't too bad.

[Woodman]

I was at F'boro and saw the B52 circling away to the north but was then involved with something else and didn't watch for it to arrive - but didn't hear it either. Wondered afterwards so maybe this explains it.
Anyone paying attention to the display at F'boro confirm it didn't arrive?

[Harrier46]

Watched the "flypast" also. All I can say is ...................worrying!!!:ooh:

[Mark Lewis]

Did the same thing yesterday but managed to turn back on track to fly part way down the display line. From where I was standing 250kts (announced over the APP frequency by the pilot) was FAR too fast to make the turn needed, and a turn too far to the north was ineveitable. When he realised the mistake and tried to correct, the controller was having none of it and told him to break off.

Oh dear :ouch:

[ou Trek dronkie]

Wouldn't have been a problem in a Vulcan.

[EGGW]

Gave me the best laugh in ages, standing there watching this with my AAIB chum. Must have been fun in the circuit , C150's, Cherokees, B52......

The commentators words were great, never heard so much laughing in an airshow crowd for a long time!!

EGGW.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Brilliant!

I was one of the priveliged few to see such a spectacular c@ck up.

My chum sat beside me watching the debacle did wonder, tho, whether the captain would ever find out his mistake- I rather suppose he would be told by someone, but not really shure who...

CC

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahaHA!

[srs what?]

What is even more worrying is this happened last time around with the B52 carrying out fly-pasts at Blackbushe and Lasham instead of Farnborough.

[Neil Porter]

srs what? - i think (needs confirming tho) that the incident last time around was in fact by a B1B flashing past just under the speed of sound at 500ft at both Lasham & Blackbushe on the public days, just imagine pottering around at Lasham in one of the gliders to find one of those things thundering past!

[eng1170]

LOL :O

This has just made my day!! Wonder what excuse the USAF will come out with.

Hahaha!!!

:ok:

[Razor61]

The last time this happened was indeed by a B-1B.
Funny thing was, i was talking to someone today about 'what if' the B52H did the same thing this year. An hour later and 'ICER21' bloody did it! He told ATC something along the lines of "I was suppose to be displaying at Farnborough, now enroute Fairford".

Poor guys in the circuit on a solo!

[Blacksheep]

Come on; be fair guys! Blackbushe IS pretty close to Farnborough - I've made the same mistake in Microsoft Flight Simulator many times. They both look alike from the air, what with all those tents and crowds and aircraft parked all over the place. The runway is almost lined up the same way too... ;)

[TOT]

Err,Err ------ why were so many civilians killed in Iraq?

[Ignition Override]

Yes yes, we can all enjoy other people being humbled, but let's not forget an earlier time, when thousands of B-17/24 crewmembers never came back while operating from similar airfields not far from there, along with the Canadians etc and so many in the RAF. We visited Churchill's War Room during our vacation "over there" recently and saw some sobering statistics.

And now, back to the smug observations...:D

[AlanM]

You can just imagine the dialect on the flight deck...

"Hey Chuck - Wass all da fuss about this Farnbo-raah errrshow.... looks kinda primitive to me!"

"Sure is Hank - I ain't never seen so many Cessnas"

And it was a B1B in 2000 over the Bushe. (Should have just freecalled it to 122.3!!):)

[flaxman]

Is there any truth in the rumour that the B52 flew in direct from the USA, and then flew straight back again? Or would it have come from a UK / European base?

[phoenix son]

The B-52 arrived direct from the USA, I believe it landed at Fairford after it's "flypast"...Don't know how long it's staying.

PHX

[rivetjoint]

Farnborough's bits on the ground aren't wide enough for a Buff apparently! Is this true?

[Pontius Navigator]

What's all the fuss about? 5 mile error in 4,400 miles is pretty good.

Back in about 66 or 67, one of the first F111 in UK visited Cottesmore to show the V-crews there the shiny new jet that we had just ordered.

"And coming in from the east is the USAF F111 . . . "

Long, long pause then, 400 k heading 080 one F111 low and fastish disappeared into the clear blue countryside only to return and land about 10 minutes later

"Why did you come in from the WEST when we were told you were coming from the EAST?"

"You put Wittering in the computer; it goes to Wittering."

They had taken the position off the chart, maybe the Buff crew did too.

Years later, pair of Vikings out of ISK for one of the flat tops came close to ditching/diverting to Sumburgh when one of the Brit pilot pax said "Isn't is supposed to be WEST?" The USN had never flown across the Greenwich meridian.

[BEagle]

Great display given by Uncle Spam's finest over Rattlesden, not Wattisham one fine air show day back when real aeroplanes flew from Wattisham!

But a FAF Mirage IV actually carried out an airfield attack on Rattlesden during one exercise (target being WTM)....something of a long bomb, one would think!

The odd B-36 managed to land at the wrong place back in the'50s, I seem to recall - much to the fury of LeMay!

[witchdoctor]

Not really terribly fair to compare the BUFF crew with the B17 crews of WW2. Had these B52 dodos been in one of those old ships, I doubt their combined piloting abilities would have made it over the airfield fence.

Another stunning display of American military ineptitude.

[phoenix son]

RivetJoint,

Think you are probably right, as far as I am aware, there are very few airfield taxiways in the UK that can handle the B-52's undercarriage configuration. Certainly Mildenhall and Fairford can but not a lot else as far as I know...

PHX

[rivetjoint]

Biggest problem with the Buff in the UK is its outrigger wheels, apparently landing at Brize would take out all their runway edge lights!

[harpy]

Once again, the usual rush to judgement from pprune "experts".

[Max Angle]

Once again, the usual rush to judgement from pprune "experts". Well he was supposed to fly past at Farnborough and did it at Blackbushe instead, not much judgement needed to form an opinion on that one really. A very public and very embarrassing cock-up. Perhaps they should ask for radar vectors next time.

[Wycombe]

....in an attempt to redress the balance, a similar mis-ident was apparently made by an RAF C130 a few years back :)

The Buff at FFD at the weekend had a lady commander - err, no, let's not got off down that route.

I remember well the B1B incident in 2000 - I was driving near Odiham and could see him holding in the overhead. There was a Cb between him and Farnborough. As he came out of the hold, it looked like he headed visually towards the first airfield he could see.

[Basil]

If their USAirships are PPRuNing, one could say in the crew's mitigation that Blackbushe car auction makes it look as if a lot of people have parked there.
Must say I'd have expected the whole thing to be done on GPS :confused:

[fireflybob]

From todays Daily Telegraph:-


US bomber misses target for flypast at air show
By Michael Smith, Defence Correspondent
(Filed: 21/07/2004)


An American B52 bomber flew from America for a flypast at the Farnborough Air Show yesterday but picked the wrong airfield.

To the consternation of the announcer and spectators at the Hampshire airfield the US bomber could be seen over Blackbushe, five miles to the north-west.

Show organisers initially appeared confused by the non-appearance of the bomber. "It didn't fly over Farnborough," one said. "It flew over Blackbushe instead.

"You could just see it in the very clear distance. We don't really know what happened, it is being looked into."

They later issued a statement saying: "We can confirm that the Boeing B52H Stratofortress did not arrive at the airfield".

The B52 is known for its range - it can fly 8,800 miles without refuelling. It played a key role in the 2001 attack on Afghanistan and during the Iraq War.

[Invictus]

Disregard

[Iron City]

Maybe they fly for Northwest in their free time

[smartercharter]

Cant even find a bloody great airfiled let alone a smaller target!

[TyroPicard]

Was anyone else at the RAFA airshow at Woodford about 1977/8?

USAF F-111 (from Upper Heyford?), Boss up, on a brilliant sunny Sunday afternoon, does a very respectable job of beating up Manchester airport, about 6 miles North.

Same navigator perhaps?

TP

[S76Heavy]

So much for precision bombing, then..:O

[Neil Porter]

Oh no, unless i just heard wrongly i believe today was a rerun of yesterday - the Buff DID IT AGAIN TODAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So ladies and Gents, go to Blackbushe tommorow!!

[Onan the Clumsy]

Five miles? What do they care?

With what they're carrying, if they drop it on Blackbushe, Farnborough's going as well. :(

[Trumpet_trousers]

Farnborough's bits on the ground aren't wide enough for a Buff apparently! Is this true?

....Have I missed something? The B-52 was due to do a flypast wasn't it?

[John Farley]

Regardless of whether it has happend again, I must confess to a little puzzlement over the ATC issues.

In my day we used radio to talk to each other and the lads and lasses on the ground could not have been more watchful, helpful, understanding of the display aviators needs or competent to assist.

It makes one wonder how it is all done today - Windows 95 perhaps - surely not DOS?

[BikerMark]

They were going to do a bit of shopping at Blackbushe Market.

:rolleyes: :O

[wilco77]

Wonder how many civilians were killed in Iraq with this type of precision bombing.

[BWBriscoe]

Once again this shows the world just how much faith we should have in the American military!

They may be the most powerful military in the world but this is just down to their shear size, not their intelligence.

It seems strange as they managed to get it right on Monday as I was there!

BWB

[allan907]

I can get a Cessna across the featureless Aussie outback to a dirt strip on some pastoral station at the right point on the map, at the right time AND do a descent profile as well. All this on a Garmin 195.

Now correct me if I'm wrong - but I thought that the Buff had the capability of flying 9 million miles from the good 'ol US of A, dropping a precision bomb through a given pane in a given window and saving the world before returning back home for kor-fee and medals. And yet it mistakes Blackbushe for Farnborough??!!!!

I'm sure that there is a very good reason which some USAF type will eventually divulge but it's sure got me beat at the moment.

[eyeinthesky]

And they wonder why they can't find Bin Laden or WMD...:hmm: :=

[eyeinthesky]

IO: Whilst your sentiment may be above reproach, I'm not sure what relevance it has to this story.

How does a crew in a (relatively) modern aircraft on a nice day in peacetime missing an airfield for a fly past compare with bomber crews 60 years ago operating over enemy territory and being shot at not making it back?

Surely we're not heading down the road of 'The USA helped us win the War so we mustn't take the mickey', are we??!

[Memetic]

Already running here:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=138328

[WestWind1950]

he probably likes the name... (Black)bush(e) :uhoh:

Westy

[QNH 1013]

NP,
Any confirmation yet that it happened again today?

[waivar]

Glad to see that mr Hoon is going to spend all that money on this new yank technology.

[CDB.A300]

Just droping the bombs, who cares about where they falls??
Mission accomplish!

[Roger Dodge]

As I live between the 2 airfields I can confirm that todays flypast did occur at the correct one.

They were 20 mins ahead of schedule though - element of surprise I guess!!! :p :p

[B Fraser]

Yup, the BUFF (Big Ugly Fat:mad: ) did an orbit over Hook and then performed a couple of turns over Farnborough before lumbering off back West. It should land in Canada in around seven hours :}

[av8boy]

To paraphrase sentiments expressed more than 60 years ago, "we're overpaid, oversexed, and over Blackbushe." :(

[Wycombe]

errr, B Fraser, it came over my head here in W Berks about an hour ago at 5000', on it's way back into Fairford (now FFD and BZN are pretty close together too.....no, stop it!)

Sounds like he was receiving lots of radar vectors from those awfully nice Farnborough radar people today! (a lot of these presumably delaying tactics, as he was a bit early)

[Akrotiri bad boy]

That BUFF's probably graced this world longer than its crew has, they should listen to their elders and let it fly itself. Just hope it's updated it's list of active airfields or it'll be making for Greenham!

[Taildragger]

Mmmmmm. Have just heard Geoff Hoon talking about the defence cuts announced today. He was waffling on about perceived threats and so an, and said that in the future we will be joining forces with the Americans to see off the hordes wherever that threat might come from. It really gives me a warm glow to know that the safest place to be in the future is not in the middle of the bullseye. John Farley said that radio was the way to do it...well, they were obviously talking to somebody, but ignoring them. Anybody in London Mil care to comment.??
:ouch:

Ignition Overide Smug observations.?? You mean that we should not comment on this.?? It kinda explains some of the "Friendly Fire" problems in wars various. I am not saying that we Brits are immune to such problems, but this is a serious incident, if not from an Air Traffic point of view (Traffic out of Blackbushe + London) then from the wider issues explored by posters in this Forum under your definition of "Smug Observations".

[sidman]

I guess the ansewer would have to be you pilots are not perfect!!

[MAN777]

Yes I remember the pair of USAF swing wings that beat up MAN instead of Woodford, it was a good job that the airport had nothing on approach at the time as they arrived totally un announced on MANS centreline. At Woodford spectators scoured the skys as the tannoy announced the imminent arrival from the east, all that was heard was a distant roar about 5 miles north !!

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

Pilots not perfect?

I can't even spell manoeuvre (and neither can the Americans)


Best thread for ages, Mrs Lovechild keeps asking me why I'm guffaw-ing at my screen.


Go on Ascoteers. (Wycombe's post on page 2) Someone tell the whole story about the Herc landing at the wrong airfield. Staish wasn't it? E- catted the rest of the crew?

[BEagle]

No, more like YOUR pilots are far from perfect!

Last time I did a Fanboro' flypast, we checked the waypoints needed for a good run-in, checked that we wouldn't savage Lasham, Odiahm or anywhere else, built in a hold, departed at the right time to make out own IP, then adjusted speed to make our TOT at the appointed hour.

In a 30 year old tanker.

This B-52 incident is utterly unforgiveable. Stupid amateur effort.

[swerve]

The usual silence from the offenders in this amaturish event - God help all ANYWHERE in Iraq (or the neighbouring countries!!!)
What's the difference between a US Navigator and a Boy Scout, the boy Scout had some training, but less medals were awarded

[Wycombe]

SPHLC,

Though I didn't make it too clear before, I was referring to an incident that actually took place at Blackbushe (late '90's if memory serves.....)

Although I wasn't there, I don't think Albert actually landed from what I recall of the local gossip at the time.

Guess that means there is some other incident to which you refer....

[Pontius Navigator]

Milltown at Lossie still attracts the unwary.

East Kirkby collected the odd in bound to Coningsby in the 60s until the runway got a bit shabby.

[soddim]

Seems like the USAF have still got trouble with European navigation. I remember the practice bombs released by F111's on a quarry near Otterburn that was foolish enough to fly red flags when the range was active and the TLP course where not a single F111 was seen near the first three targets and the AD guys could not get a shot at them because they were in the wrong part of Germany. In the latter case they compounded the felony by admitting that the error was in their 'war tapes' - as if that was a suitable excuse for gross inability.

At least they get it all precisely wrong - just like their intelligence.

[Escape]

It is great so see the majority of you being so narrow minded and petty. I am sure all you armchair generals know what is is like to fly hostile combat missions!!

We have a great deal to thank America for. Without them we would not have 'won' WW2, could not have financed the Falklands Campaign and would certainly not be Great Britain.

Do any of you think for one minute that the pilots of the aircraft relish the fact they have taken innocent civilian lives. I think not - and they will have to live with that fact for the rest of their lives.

Before you all level your unjust criticisms at other people, other nations and governments (regardless of now wrong their policies may be), take a closer look to home. We are no longer the so called Great Britain. There is nothing Great about it.

If you really want to criticise - try pointing the finger towards Tony Blair before he brings us all down.

[FJJP]

Escape, you really have set out your credentials in your profile - we can only guess at what's behind your indignant rant.

Me? 38 years of RAF driving including several wars. You're right in saying that we don't relish killing people - it does not rest easy on the conscience, but most of us accept that it is what we were/are paid to do. Ever sit on 'Q' with a megaton bucket of sunshine nestling in the bombay? [Also knowing that there would be no-one in you family to come back to?].

The point of this thread is that fellow professionals are taking the p*ss big time out of a bunch of pillocks flying a well equiped jet who got it mightily wrong when it counted.

I remember one Brit bombing comp where a Buff crew dropped their radar bomb in the wrong county! And the dumb co-pilot saw the target slide past his starboard wingtip and said diddly-squat. Next day (Saturday) the crew were ordered by CinCSAC to refly the route and return to the States - and God could not help them if they did not return home with perfect scores!

Most of us have screwed up small or big time at some point in our careers - it's just that most of us did it out of sight of a mass gathering of the media and general public...

[hifiman]

FJJP
Wasn't it Double Top '81 when the USAF Bomb/Nav shop got their sums wrong on one of the targets and caused ALL their Buff crews to drop their bombs in a 50 foot bucket some miles in error? IMMSMR the bombardiers said that they didn't check the offsets on the grounds that they couldn't change them anyway............

The Farnboro "where's the destination" incident reminds me of the time when a group of us got a lift back to the UK from the USA in a USAF KC135. The newly qualified Navigatrix found recovering to a non-TACAN equipped base something of a challenge but didn't let that stop her trying to route us thru an active DA en-route!

We've all made mistakes but missing Farnborough takes the biscuit.

[West Coast]

Funny enough this never happens to limey aircraft does it?

About 41/2 years ago saw it myself in San Diego. Visiting nimrod (what a silly name) transiting the mighty long flight from North Island naval air station to Miramar, about 20 miles if that. This guy hacked up the airspace in an attempt to find the initial for the overhead. It was soo bad he was sent away and told to get a proper briefing before ever coming back.

Naw, limeys are perrrfect, if you dont believe 'em just ask them.

[SASless]

Now...Now West Coast....no since being rude.....be the good gentleman and let our brothers from across the Salt Water Divide enjoy their fun. The BUFF crew did invite this upon themselves....after all....to find yourself performing at an airshow without an audience deserves some critical banter.

After all....they are right...."Over paid, over sexed, and over here!" was true too.....they just never wish to offer the other half of that saying...."The English....under paid, under sexed, and .....under Eisenhower!" I reckon some of the landed gentry of the realm take offense at having to invite USAF aircraft to the airshows.....and understandably so. Without the outsiders...why it would be a very small affair if they had to depend upon the home team to provide its airplane.

Or...is it a leased bird from the USAF.....? I forget.

[Milt]

Blackbushe and Farnborough Confusion

Perhaps Blackbushe has kept a count on the increasing number of time it has been confused with Farnborough,

Here is another humorous account from the 50s when I was doing ETPS at Farnborough.

From Memoirs

Confusion often occurred with air traffic control instructions despite the care taken by the controllers to use standard words and phrases with clear English diction for the benefit of foreigners on ETPS courses..

It was not uncommon for pilots to mistake Blackbushe, the civil airfield 10 miles from Farnborough, for home base. I found myself doing an initial approach on Blackbushe one misty afternoon. I soon recognised my error as the layout of the airfield became clear. Not so with the Egyptian, Vickery Zarr, He followed through to land and when he went to turn off the runway on to a taxiway with which he was familiar at Farnborough, the resultant radio chatter became really hilarious.

It was normal practice under these circumstances for Farnborough to retain control over the offending pilot whilst liaising with Blackbushe over a telephone tie-line. So those of us on the same frequency became party to a fascinating sequence of instructions and responses.

Blackbushe was base to a fleet of civil Ambassador type aircraft and it became obvious that one of these was preparing for take off at the holding point when Farnborough said to Vickery " Take the next runway exit left and then the taxiway back to the holding point." Vickery said " I do not understand where I am and what I should do. I have some fuel left and can fly again for 20 minutes." Farnborough came back with "Roger, taxi straight ahead to the Ambassador." Vickery did not respond so Farnborough repeated the instruction. Vickery then came back in a faltering voice with "Please, please, I do not er er I do not wish to see the Ambassador today."

One of the tutors on the radio broke in with " Vickery you idiot, he means the Ambassador aircraft waiting for take off at the holding point." Meanwhile the rest of us had convulsions of laughter at the expense of the hapless and confused Egyptian.

We Australians were sometimes confused by different meanings given to words. The RAE were experimenting with a rapidly configurable inflatable aircraft capable of being carried around on a light road vehicle. The wings were inflatable and normally folded into a container. The engine was fitted with a small air compressor which inflated the wings and fuselage to maintain form and strength of its delta shape. Some intrepid test pilot would occasionally take it for a flight. The craft was always referred to by the British as the Durex Delta. This to us conceptualised a delta aircraft held together by Durex brand transparent sticky tape as marketed in Australia at the time. But the British did not have Durex sticky tape. Their Durex was a brand of condom.

I soon learned about this when my comments in mixed company one evening about having seen the Durex delta flying that day were followed by someone repeatedly kicking me in the shins beneath the table.

Flying in the northern hemisphere often puzzled me as I found I was less able to instinctively know where north should be. I had to take extra care to refresh my orientation with the compass. To this day I am unable to specify the basis for having some in-built directional capacity whilst in the southern hemisphere.

[allan907]

West Coast - your raw nerve is showing badly.

Yes, everyone makes cock-ups. However, with the march of technology these cock-ups should become fewer and fewer.

I presume that the Buff has GPS capability; Farnborough also has a published lat/long and identifier. I would also presume that, on a flight from the States, the GPS would, most likely, have been one of the primary nav instruments. So, either the nav programmed the GPS incorrectly or it was programmed correctly but someone chose not to believe it on arrival and opted for what they thought was Farnborough courtesy of the Mk 1 eyeball. Either way it shows a degree of unprofessionalism conducted in the full glare of publicity.

So, in the absence of a reasoned explanation from those involved this thread will now degenerate into a "Boo hoo, stop picking on us" from WC coupled with a ....Brit aircraft did this at that location...and countered by....American aircraft (x1000) did this at that location...etc etc

[Ignition Override]

Hey West Coast, it's ok. A big debate might not solve anything.

I stand corrected at least twice on previous pages, but it might help us all to avoid any political motivations on Pprune. These are splashed all over the media every day. Even Texas-bashing (but not Arkansas-the Clintons' home turf...) is now in vogue, but certainly not on Pprune.........

My only point, despite the very embarassing mistakes made by the crew, is to wonder whether the two (or three?) B-52 pilots had any disagreements between them about which airfield was the correct one? It is difficult to imagine that an all-night flight or any long mission could result in major fatigue issues... They will probably be much more reliable and thorough while navigating in the future compared to the many pilots who know that it could never happen to them, even over unfamiliar landscape.

How was the crew's CRM? It is tempting to believe the more experienced crewmember (also usually 'in command'). But we have never been tempted by what we see outside-oh noooo. I once quickly verified with a tower controller that we were lined up at night on the correct runway at a fairly unfamiliar airport (ABQ?), possibly with an unreliable localizer, or just an inexact VOR radial. The Captain was a little irked for a moment that I even questioned it. This paid off a few years later in Portland where a parallel runway was very hard for the Captain to see. A Pensacola Approach controller had us on about a seven mile final at Hurlburt AFB-the controller believed that we were on final for Eglin AFB (Ft. Walton Beach), or simply forgot our destination due to heavy Navy Training Command and various civilian traffic nearby! Luckily, we knew that most of Eglin is west of the north-south runway, but Hurlburt AFB is the opposite. By the way, can any Jepp. 10-9 ground charts of Biggs AAF or El Paso be made available here?



:)

[West Coast]

I'm sure the buff did have GPS, perhaps the same model the Royal Marines (mis)used on a certain waterway aboard the now Iranian flagged small boat flotilla.


Bad nav, its not just for American airmen anymore.


Can't help but notice the kind words and sympathy many of you have for the jag pilot who damaged his aircraft. Little of that same love for this crew who gooned up to a far lesser degree but in a public venue.

[FishHead]

Milt,

Flying in the northern hemisphere often puzzled me as I found I was less able to instinctively know where north should be

I always thought it had a lot to do with the fact that the sun in in the northern hemisphere is always ever so slightly to the south as it transits through the sky - vice versa in the southern hemisphere.

So when you are walking flying northwards in Oz, you are flying towards the sun... if flying northwards in the UK, the sun is behind you (assuming the sun is out, and not covered by clouds)

FH

[Pontius Navigator]

dungfennel,

And another one rises to the bait.

5-6 miles error per hour was par for the early bomb nav systems. Correcting the system by astro navigation, over the sea, produced 'good' accuracy of about 5 miles. In competition stuff it was possible to get 400 yards or thereabouts as Bob Tompkin's did once in a Vulcan on the SAC Bomb Competition.

This was strictly selef-contained steam age navigation.

If you were dropping a pait of 25mt's then it was good enough for government work, especially if nos 2/3 were criss-crossing.

Dropping 108k of steel needed a bit better accuracy but a 3 ship could still manage a fair bit of jungle clearance with danger from falling branches. That's tongue in ceek too.

[BEagle]

Westie - I'm sure that our ancestors were very grateful for the "Oversexed, overpaid and over here" folk in WW2. Far better than ending up "Undersexed, underpaid and under Hitler" which is what might have happened had all those brave guys not been here to help kick Nazi ass........

The Buff at Blackbushe incident was a screw up - but the only real damage was to the crew's pride. Whereas the Jag incident was very nearly fatal and I cannot find anything to forgive in it.

And anyone who launches off to Miramar (guess that was back in 'Fightertown' days?) without having read the brief very carefully deserves little sympathy. Same goes for entry procedures for places like China Lake.

Mind you, being instructed to park our 4-jet "On the quarterdeck" at Miramar did have us guessing back in the mid-'80s!

As for 'Nimrod', the name comes from the 'Mighty Hunter' of classic legend. It was chosen for the aircraft due to its principal role as a submarine hunter. And you lot pinched the name 'Viking' for your sub hunter from us - although our Viking was a chubby little twin prop airliner of the early '50s :p

[Pontius Navigator]

West Coast,
First you should ask "Did the Iranians have GPS?" That will solve the puzzle.

Going on to nav boobs. I gave my offsets to a colleague withou finding out why I missed Watertown by 17 miles. I found out later as he had to explain to the AOC (2*) why he missed by 18 miles.

Then there was our immaculate NDB hold and landing at Tehran Merabad. OK we landed fine and flew a perfect hold. Only thing was the beacon was u/s big time - we lied.

Then the crossing of the pond 60 miles south of track the whole way. Our excuse was that the US Comcen would not accept a handwritten CA48 and the guy who wrote and typed it for us thought we would be flying 60 miles north of our planned route.

Or the VC10 that violated Greenland airspace - several hundred miles off track.

All been there, seen it, done, got the T-shirt, written the book, and been b*ll*cked where appropriate. We talk about it, like crew room banter, and learn from the old hand (like what I am myself 43 years and counting).

Back to the Buff in the bomb comp, I guess late 60's. Closest was 5,100 feet. Worst simply missed the turn and went passed Holbeach when he should have approached Wainfleet. The middle one hacked the target but was outside time and tracking limits. He did a screaming Jzus, as best you can in a Buff and most impresive, crossing over the target wings level, bomb-doors open, just 90 deg off track. Most impressive.

And last shot. Did a fly-past at Coltishall in the Lancaster, rolled off set heading for Gaydon and found we could not make the gate as the Group timings were wrong and we had not flight planned ourselves (no time). What spepd do you need said the WWII ace. Too fast I replied. What do you need, I'll tell you if its too fast. 250k.

We scorched across to Gaydon at 250k in the 'young' Lanc, only 23 years old then, and got to Gaydon on time. Only thing is we could not find Gaydon in the murk. Came in from the West!

So we all do it. OK Beags, your turn <g>

[BEagle]

The Vulcan radar who did an immaculate Int Aids approach....on Hemswell, not Scampton.

Several JP students who annoyed Dishforth instead of flying circuits at Leeming.

The 2 QFIs who flew their JP through Pembrey range between the tip-in point and the target with a Hunter flying hot strafe at the time. A quick bit of detective work by the RSO (me - guesting for the day) - and a quick call to St Mawgan with their spoof bombing score just as they were landing was sufficient embarrassment.

The Finningley JP navigator instructor pilot who appeared over the top of the nuclear weapons store at Scampton, then did a quick 180 hoping nobody had noticed. All those Vulcans should have given the clue that it wasn't Blyton.

The Buccaneer pilot who led a 4-ship through a live drop zone - only realiesd his error when he spotter a Landrover falling from the heavens in front of him....

The Hunter pilot who led a 4-ship right over Gatwick. Now flies for Cathay.

Another Hunter pilot who mistook Withybush for Brawdy and went over the top at 450 knots. Fortunately they didn't complain - but the Irish did when a different Hunter pilot was lost over Eire thinking he was over Wales...

Hands up who hasn't.......

[Zoom]

A stn cdr (nav), doing his once-monthly sortie (unfortunately during a Taceval), took a four-ship through an active Suippes (sp?) Range in France. 'What a terrific golf course. Oh look, I think someone's shooting at us!'

[witchdoctor]

Are we quite sure the BUFF made it to Brize and didn't end up popping into Oxford for tea and scones? Mind you, a handy place to brush up on nav techniques.

Perhaps this is why you make so much use of 'smart' munitions these days?

PS. Loved the gag about McDonalds and the NG - very good.:D

[360BakTrak]

I was at Blackbushe in 1996 when a US Army Apache did almost the same thing. I think it was before displaying had started and was during arrivals week, but he realised his error about half mile final and made a sharp turn towards F'Boro! Was only just above tree top level IIRC...........could have had a free landing fee if he said he was visiting the car auctions!:}

[The Claw]

Guess they did their nav training with the Royal Marines............:}

[Trumpet_trousers]

Are we quite sure the BUFF made it to Brize and didn't end up popping into Oxford for tea and scones?


.....B-52 heading for FFD and not BZZ......so who's got THEIR nav wrong now then?

[allan907]

Now West Coast do you get it? Given half a chance the Brits will willingly confess to cock ups ad infinitum. We are more than willing to take the piss out of ourselves. We recognise that we are all mortal and that the only way of dealing with it is to have a bit of fun at our own expense.

Doesn't take away any of the achievements that we have tucked under our belt - including painting most of the world red at some time or other, coping with WWI on our own for 90% of the time and coping with WW2 on our own for the first couple of years when everyone, including you guys, had written us off, and kicking our South American bretheren out of the illegal take over of the Falkland Islands over a huge distance. Yes, we probably couldn't have done it without your help and for that we, and the rest of the Western World, will be eternally grateful. Thank you.

But......fer ****'s sake lighten up. One of your invincible 'can't get anything wrong' bomber crews screwed up. Enjoy! Fortunately this time didn't involve any 'blue on blue' type letters to NOK.

[uffington sb]

RivetJoint

I guess BZZ must have changed their runway lighting system 'cos B-52's did several dets there in the 80's. G models from Dyess AFB and from March AFB. I went flying with them up the Buffer Zone and I must admit it was a little scary as they had never flown in the ETO before. Total cloud coverage from T/O to landing so no chance of spotting the border. The Lt pilot kept asking the 2nd Lt Navs "Are we the right side of the zone?" The EWO showed me Migs and SAM batteries locking onto us on the RWR. On the way home got bounced by some dutch F-104's and with the tail gunner calling the shots, did some pretty impressive aerobatics. Got off the aircraft carrying a little paper bag!!!

[Pontius Navigator]

Allan907 see PMs

[Taildragger]

West Coast Let me tell you how the Brits handles am embarrassing situation like this when YOU guys extract the urine outta US....we generally go red, mumble "Go forth and multiply" then we all have a beer together and get up the next day after a nice lie down and take on the real enemy which happens to be certain gentlemen trying to blow the crap out of both our nations with a lot of fervour and enjoyment.
We CAN take the mick AND still be friends. Lighten up a bit.
'Twas a upcock...enjoy the embarrassment of the crew concerned.
I suspect their Commanding Officer will be trifle less amused though.
:\

[sidman]

I Guess you pilots just don't get!!! You Brits like to talk about the US pilots and say how bad we are but the fact is you guys would sit and do nothing if not for us.. I know there are alot of you pilots than can run the world better than the US so step up and do so... I do not have the time you pilots do to sit and bitch I work for my money.. All you piots come from the same lame place you get paid to do nothing... But you can bitch about a USAF pilot that has screwed up...

[Pontius Navigator]

Sidman, oooh hit a nerve?

Nothing strike you as common in all these cockups?

ALL the crews, Brit and US SURVIVED. Not only that, as we are talking air displays, bombing cometitions, interational exercises etc, these crews were the BEST at the time yet they all screwed up.

Screwed up but through airmanship they survived.

They will also have learnt a lesson in humility. They will also have taken on board the refresher courses in flight safety.

DON'T ASSUME, CHECK.

Check someone else's work.
Check across the cockpit.
Check the docs.
Check the automatic nav systems.

We also survived as we were able to discuss these cockups, 'there but for the grace of God go I.'

[allan907]

With a rant like that I suspect that Sidman is probably one of those wonderful examples of American civilisation that one sees on the Springer Show. One thing's for sure - he's no pilot (or should that be piot??) - probably need a close examination to see if it is human.

Jer-ry, Jer-ry, Jer-ry

BTW Sidman - we DID rule the world for some hundreds of years - even your little patch of dirt was coloured red on the map for a while. You also speak our language, inherited our customs, and shared our technology. It has been 'Pax Americana' only since 1920 or so - once you guys have settled down you might get it right.

[Wycombe]

....and I've heard many Americans, even in recent years, still referring to us as the "Mother Country", so we can't be that bad, can we :confused:

Being able to laugh at oneself is one of those qualities that makes us Brits great, IMHO ;)

....along with a likeness for and understanding of sarcasm and irony

[pr00ne]

allan907,

I know this is rather off topic and I don't want to divert the thread as it's making me snigger, but I am in myth destruction mode this morning, so sorry.

We never "coped with WW1 on our own for 90% of the time"
We were a bit part player compared to the French and Germans which ever way you want to look at it, total numbers comitted, casualties, % of national resources mobilised, effect on national economy and % of population effected.

We may have been there sans the US for most of it, but to say we coped on our own is a gross distortion of historical fact.


Back on topic, was once lounging around at Sherburn aero club when a brace of USAF F-100's beat the living daylights out of the place, leaving a strangely silent and puzzled Church Fenton wondering where it's SSAFA airshow act had got to..............................


On the other hand, an old wizzened FAA mate used to tell a lovely story of doing a display over Leeds City centre for a war weapons week or something similar in a Firebrand, claiming that all railway lines looked a like he had to explain his dazzling display over SHEFFIELD city centre to the subsequent court of enquiry!

[allan907]

PrOOne - OK, fair cop. I plead journalistic licence, or something like that. The point that I was trying to make to the totally insufferable West Coast and the brain dead Sidman, was that they were late to the party.

Last year when the USS Constellation was in port on its way back home from the Gulf, I was given a personal conducted tour by a Lt Cdr and two Lts that we had hosted for a couple of days. Thoroughly nice set of blokes and we had a great time. However, when we left the ship through the official 'front door' there was a pic of the Conny doing replenishment at sea (RAS) and this guy went on about how the US Navy were the only navy able to do this wonderful thing.

I resisted the temptation to tell him that the RN, RAN (and other Navies) did it regularly; that the UK invented the angle deck, the steam catapult, the mirror landing system, jet engine etc etc etc.

With such a myopic view of the world it is perhaps not surprising that WC and Sidman got upset. They probably thought it was a major achievement in the Buff crew just finding the UK:E

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

They probably thought it was a major achievement in the Buff crew just finding the UK
Credit where its due, allan - it is not THAT big:D

[Taff Missed]

The American viewpoint is summed up rather well in the movie 'Pearl Harbour' (Harbor?).

Bombs are raining down all over the shop and the hero is asked WIHIH? He says, "I think World War 2 just broke out", obviously unaware that it had actually been going on for slightly over two years at that point.

They certainly seem quite determined not to miss out on the start of the 3rd one!

Taff

[con-pilot]

Taff Missed, one could very well argue that until Pearl Harbor was attacked there was no true World War. Now true there was a very nasty air war between the Germans and the British (but no ground war as Germany had already conquered Europe.) Japan was in a nasty little war with China and Hitler had made the biggest blunder in modern history by invading Russia. So one could say it was World War one and a half until Pearl Harbor.

Now back to the thread.

Some one earlier pointed out El Paso and Briggs Air force Base in Texas. I have no idea how many times I have landed El Paso and more than a few times at Briggs. (And yes when I landed at Briggs I was supposed to.) However in marginal VFR conditions it is very easy to line up on the wrong airport, even with the ILS tuned. It has happen too more than a few pilots. I of course, being perfect, have never had any such problem (and if you believe that I got some land in Florida I will sell you real cheap!)

Anyway mistakes happen and I will bet you a crisp five-dollar bill to a soggy doughnut that the Aircraft Commander and the Lead Nav. on that B-52 are not any more.
:uhoh:

[SASless]

Scene...Two British LAE's, brothers, one American Pilot, all home from Iran bush operations...locked inside a pub in Oxford on a Sunday afternoon between hours. Also present...a leathery looking older man quietly sipping a pint....and two young loud obiviously intoxicated USAF airmen.

The two youngsters playing the Ugly American role to the hilt...dripping on about the Teabags this...the Teabags that...couldn't fight a war without the Americans...you get my drift here.

I suggested to my drinking buddies that I needed to step over and counsel the two airmen about their manners....but was asked to desist because they did not want any trouble to start which was quite possible seeing the situation and knowing me (I have never been known to be very diplomatic I guess!)

As it turned out...the old feller...gets up from the bar stool...pint in hand...walks over to the airmen...and very politely says..."Won World War II did you laddies? We blew the bugle in "39 and you c--ts did not show up until '42! What took ya so long?"

Standing ovation was given by all...all I repeat....best put down I have ever seen.:ok:

[con-pilot]

Well, maybe they were hard of hearing; it’s a long way for the notes of a bugle to carry. Sounds like they were a little too young as well.:ok:

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

'ang on a minute!

If the Yanks had turned up 'on time' in 1939 then WW 2 would have started then, eh?

So they were still late, either way.

No, wait a minute.....oh, I give up.


I notice no-one ever has a dig at the Japanese for turning up late.

[BEagle]

Quite a few Yanks did 'turn up' pre-Pearl Harbor...

Ever hear about the Eagle squadrons?

[Taildragger]

Hey Sidman I assume from your carpet chewing rant, that you are not a Pilot, seeing as how you reckon that you work for a living, but Pilots dont.
Really??....Send your moronic comments to Captain Al Haynes who saved so many lives at Sioux City, or Capt. Eric Moody, who lost ALL (Not a misprint) repeat ALL four engines over Jakarta in a 747, and kept trying time after time to get them relit, and finally succeded saving all on board. Or to the Captain of the Aloha 737 which became a Cabriolet version in flight, or to the Captain of the United 747 which had the side ripped out in flight and lost 9 pax, and the inumerable Military aircrew US and British who gave their lives so you could rant and rave incoherently on this forum.
No....none of these guts did a days work in their lives, did they.??
Keep your racist redneck comments to where they belong.
We were having a good chuckle at the expense of some aircrew who no doubt have had plenty of chuckles from this side of the Atlantic in the past, and no doubt will again, as we will from you lot. Out.

[johnfairr]

Oh dear, this is all getting a touch serious. We've all dropped the odd bollock, intentionally or not. The trick is in how you see yourself, how your boss sees you, but more importantly, how everybody else sees you.

In this case, the world and his wife saw the small object falling, hence the banter. Mind you, Farnborough is only every two years, so a new GPS, a let-down chart, an I-SPY world atlas and a new crew should see us OK for 2006.

:ok:

[SASless]

No one talks about the USS Reuben James either....sunk by a U-Boat while escorting a convoy eastbound...well before the war officially began for us...but then this discussion has been had numerous times here with the same results. I am just glad that my side can muddle through when we do get around to it. But, there are some parties to this thread that would never give credit to but one side.

[West Coast]

As to the WWII comment made about Pearl Harbor, its subjective isn't it? It started earlier than 1 Sept of 39 if you were one of the countries sacrificed as an appeasement to Hitler. Remember that as you pontificate as if Britain's entry marks the real kickoff of events. For someone from one of the countries that fell in the earlier years they might find a chuckle from your comment.


As to the thread, no I am not sensitive. I simply dislike hypocrisy masquerading as dry humor.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Westy:rolleyes:

"As to the thread, no I am not sensitive. I simply dislike hypocrisy masquerading as dry humor"

Most of it's irony and a whole heap of "self flaj" which is something I have noticed over my 30 years service our country cousins have problems grasping:p

chill out dude:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ignition Override]

Many good observations made. When these threads run for a few or more pages, some folks are too lazy, or tired, to read much. Maybe they often read just the first page, barely skimming over later pages which finally suggest human (most importantly, fellow countrymens' :) ) imperfections. Subtleties can appear to be different things to different people and often do not sink in at all. Subtleties are usually ignored by people who can only understand clear results.

That story of the two younger fighter types in the pub who were so full of themselves was excellent. Ironically, I flew recently, more than once, with the guy who many years ago set the official speed record in the SR-71 (former F-4 Instructor and later G-III pilot at Andrews), and he is the quietest, most humble guy with whom I've ever flown, or known. Well, when one lives on an island, some 'ugly Americans' can surface when overseas, but many of us are aware of the old stereotype and try to somehow overcompensate when we travel. :)

As for the 'frontier mentality', it was not that long ago-you might still need it in most parts of Alaska.:ouch:

[StbdD]

Sorry to drag it back to the topic but the following might be worth a read as the other side of the story:

".... the ATC gents decided to vector them and they followed, knowing they were being put out of position. When they were 2 miles from the approach end 3 miles to the left they were cleared for their "hard right turn to line up"! This obviously was not doable and they flew a safe path. The ATC gents now know a B-52 cannot pull 5 g's to overfly a runway full of spectators. The situation has been resolved and they have made their fly-by's on time and target since. "

*With acknowledgement and respect to the gent from whose e-mail the above was borrowed. Sorry mate, you should know LNOs are sneaky.

So, a less than favorable situation, good airmanship, no harm, no foul.

[SASless]

The frontier does not start in Alaska....Montana, Idaho, and Washington all have some pretty interesting places....you can be walking out to you helicopter to preflight and meet a Grizzly Bear...a critter that sits atop the food chain unless you are toting a large firearm.

[BEagle]

Until someone comes up with the "Right to Arm Bears", that is!

[safetypee]

1330 Sat, B-1 over flies Old Sarum not much above circuit height; presumably on route (still attempting to find) Farnborough. Definitely not in the Boscombe circuit.

[Woodman]

That's interesting, Safetypee. A little earlier a B1, also at display height (my judgement having seen it at F'boro on Tuesday) overflew me around 20 miles south south west of LGW heading roughly south. Bet it upset the Parham gliders!

[Wycombe]

Lots of "heavies" at FAB yesterday - really nice job by "Timmy Formation" (T* & VC10) and, as for the spiral climbout by the Springbok 744 - :ok:

A340-600 spectacular aswell, but we're used to what they do at airshows now!

[BEagle]

"Old Sarum?.... Ah, shee-hit. CIA spooks bin tellin' us to bomb Saddam; guess that sumbitch computer had a spellin' error for that target...."

I do sometimes wonder at the pre-flight navigation preparation of some of our colonial chums. Ever since I help direct the attention of the visiting presidential Mreenkaw support helicopter pilots to the rules for flying from where they were to where they were going. They were expecting just to be able to go in a straight line, expecting ATC priority. Just like home.....