KE Strike

[Scarebus PIC]

All foreign crews at KAL have been asked to take a maximum of 6 hard days leave due to a possible strike by the local pilots in August.

All foreign pilots are urged not to operate during this period as you have already suffered a 10% pay-cut and for those of you who don;t already know it, all the local pilots have just been awarded a 50% safety bonus. In other words, every local pilot will or has received a bonus equal to 50% of their monthly salary!

Why help management when the locals get what stolen from the foreigners?

Anyone breaking the picket line during this period will really be letting down the side!

The VP line Operations is holding a meeting at the Hyatt Regency Incheon on Wednesday 21st July at 1500 hrs KST and all foreign Captains are urged to take this matter up with Capt. Lee personally.

Safe flying and happy landings ...............

[B737NG]

How much more os needed to open the eyes?. -10%, 4 days, no fair pay, nor fair scheduling.... and and and

[Scarebus PIC]

737NG is right - the list goes on and on and on ..........

One possible solution since the foreign crews are not permitted to strike is to not give any sectors away to the F/O's.

Operate every sector and the message may filter up to management!

It's up to all of you at Wednesday's meeting to speak your peace to the V.P. Line Operations, Capt. Lee Young Duck! Good luck to all of you who are able to attend!

Suggest minutes of the meeting be recorded and distributed after every meeting as nothing ever gets done!

More comments for the rest of the foreign contingent would be appreciated as you can be sure this site is visited by senior management daily!!!!!

It's time to speak up and hold our ground!

[asianaav8r]

Suggestion:

Leave KAL - Stay out of Korea for a 6 month period (mandatory) - Apply to ASIANA and return to Korea.

We're treated more fairly and everything our local pilots get, we get as well. All for one and one for all!

We're constantly recruting 744 and 777 drivers.

Pay and benefits may not be the same, but at least you're treated as an equal and NOT a "foreign devil".

Good luck with your negotiations and keep us all posted on this site.

[millerscourt]

After the meeting is it all down to JJ's???

[choyo]

I agree, no more sectors for F/o'S. Would feel happier about that anyway. Is it me or are they getting worse?
What happened at todays meeting, am in the states at the moment and unable to attend.

[126.9]

Suggestion:

Leave KAL - Stay out of Korea for a 6 month period (mandatory) - Apply to ASIANA and return to Korea.

Does that mean he'll have to wear that ice-cream man uniform? :}

[Morning Calm]

Gentlemen:

We, the expats at KAL have already suffered an illegal 10%paycut...........loss of contacted leave days for every sick day taken............and, it should be noted that every incident/FOQA event, exceedence, hard landing, high altitude jet upset, engine pod or tail strike has been with guess who in the left seat (?) - a local!

The KAL Safety Department calls this "SAFETY"?

So why do the locals get a bonus when it's us, the expats who keep the airline running safely and smoothly?

If anyone has an answer, please share it with us all!

Lets hope every expat will be "unavailable" or "report sick" as and when called upon to fill a seat of a striking local!

It's payback time! NO SECTORS TO THE F/O's PLEASE!

Stand united or be prepared to suffer the consequences - over and over again!

[Won2Go]

Morning Calm,

You are right. I have already stopped giving any T/O or LDG to the F/O. I am also telling them why they are not getting the flying and I suggest to them that they take it up with company management if they have a problem with that.

[Captain Kimchi]

Summary of the topics raised during the meeting at the Hyatt Regency Incheon on Wedenesday 21st July, 2004:

The meeting was chaired by the V.P. Line Ops, Capt. Lee Young Duck.

Also present were the Chief Pilots from the B747, B744 and B777 fleets.

For those of you not at this meeting it was interesting and I guess the polite word would be "high-spirited"

The question was raised on how many contract pilots the company wants to keep as a great number of F/O’s are arguing that the FCU want to get all foreign captains. Capt. Lee assured all foreign captains present at the meeting that the target number as per agreement from 2001 is already achieved and KAL could hire additional foreign captains if the need arises. The target is to maintain all the foreign captains currently with KAL and transfer/upgrade to different fleets as and when required. No further details were given as to when B747 Classic, MD 11 and B737 foreign captains can expect to be transferred/upgraded.

On the question of the 50% safety bonus (currently to be paid to the local pilots only) Capt. Lee had no positive answer but as it stands, the Foreign Captains are to be excluded from this bonus. This then raised another question: “Are the Foreign Captains” not part of KAL’s crewing staff, to which Capt. Lee once again had no answer.

The highlight and main focus of the meeting was for the V.P. Line Ops to prepare the Foreign Captains present for a "possible strike" by the FCU sometime in first or second week of August – the peak Korean holiday season. Capt. Lee went on to explain the current situation between the FCU and KAL’s Management and stated that there is a strong possibility of an FCU-strike. At this time no one knows if this will indeed happen. If it does though, Capt Lee pointed out that not all Local Pilots are members of the union and also advised us that some Foreign Pilot’s could get a quick right seat checkout

The Foreign Captains then asked Capt. Lee why they should help KAL’s Management when they are excluded from bonuses, per diem increases and that their 10% pay cut last year has still not been reimbursed. Why, it was asked, should KAL Management ask the Foreign Captains to help them out on the strike if they were to be excluded from the safety bonus. Words and phrases like " it's a slap in the face", the “Company is disgusting" and “it's a kick in the ? ? ?" and many other inputs were given to show the V.P. the displeasure that was felt throughout the room

The question on the scheduling practices (especially the A330) was then discussed and it was stated by many of the Foreign Captains that scheduling is dangerous, and highly ineffective. It was suggested that scheduling should be under the supervision of the Line-Operations Department so that errors can be addressed and corrected accordingly. At present, scheduling is under OCC’s control and the influence of Line OPS is too small to achieve corrections when required. Provisional schedule’s should be viewable on CREWLINK as soon as possible to see if the days off and the travel requests are given as requested.

The Airline (KAL) has far too many different Business Units (BU`s) and there is no lateral communication between each unit. There is no corporate identity and each unit is working independently

Ground school and the majority of CREWLINK notices/messages/bulletins are still in Korean and a lot of information is missing in the translation as and when KAL Management decide to translate something for the Foreign Crew’s attention. English should be encouraged and KAL should not translate manufacturers notices, bulletins etc into Korean and then have it re-translated back into English as too much is lost in this double translation.

Then, the V.P. Line Ops was asked why the Foreign Captains are having to incur a two day penalty if they had the audacity to actually “go sick”. This was quickly picked up by the hecklers in the room and added a good amount of AVGAS to the preceding argument. Once again the room temperature increased.

An interesting side comment....all the long haul Chief Pilots also attended this meeting and they were quite taken aback by the emotions that were on display by the illustrious group present!

To give Capt Lee his due, he remained unsettlingly calm throughout this ordeal and did promise to take ACTION on the safety bonus for the underpaid and overworked Foreign Captains, but too be very truthful, we do not believe he will make the attempt! Like all the V.P’s and AVP’s, they are ALL “puppets on a string” and “window dressing” for the benefit of the outside world.

At the end of the two-hour session, Capt Lee treated everyone to fine finger dining and copious amounts of hops at the VY Bar.

Attendance at this meeting was lower than normal and the general consensus was that as this was the third meeting this year, nothing discussed in any of the previous meetings has materialized, therefore, why waste a valuable day off in attending such meetings in the future.

[Scarebus PIC]

Thank you Captain Kimchi............

Rumor has it that upto 5 foreign pilots have left (for a variety of reasons) in the last 5 weeks and there are more to go!

The greater the exodus the better for the few that remain!

Thank you won2go - everyone needs to take the same positive action..............

[Morning Calm]

THIS CREWLINK MESSAGE WAS SENT TO ALL KAL PERSONNEL (FOREIGN CAPTAINS AS WELL)!

Success of 2004 Safety Promotion Bonus Program


I would like to express my sincere appreciation to all KAL staff both in Korea and overseas who have been making constant efforts to ensure Aviation Safety and Security during these difficult times.

We have been working hard and have finally established " Zero Accident " status since 2000 as a result of our years of unity and diligence. I am very pleased to announce that as of 30 June 2004, we have achieved our goal corresponding with the purpose of the Safety Promotion Bonus Program.

There is no doubt that the companys aggressive investment and your hard work in harmony have made this Absolute Safety possible.

As we are all well aware, one department or one individual alone cannot guarantee complete safety. It is only possible when it comes with solid cooperation and support from all individuals and entire departments along with compliance with rules and regulations.

We should regard this achievement as a new starting point and I would like to reemphasize the particular point that we should not forget the importance of each individuals role and cooperation among internal departments.

Also, I would like to thank all of you for your understanding and cooperation regarding the recent labor-management negotiation. We must make greater efforts to overcome financial difficulties caused by high fuel prices and to achieve this years business goal based on Absolute Safety and Security and harmonized relationships between labor and management.

Again I congratulate each and every one of you and express my deepest appreciation for your continued hard work.

Take good care of yourself during the summer season.

July, 2004
Jong-Hee Lee
President and COO


Analysis:

The above CREWLINK message was addressed and received by ALL KAL employees (including the Foreign Captains) and there are many references to ALL KAL STAFF - WE HAVE - YOUR HARD WORK - THANK ALL OF YOU - EACH AND EVERYONE OF YOU.

Bottom Line:

We are also entitled participate in the 2004 Safety Promotion Bonus Program.

[choyo]

As pprune IS anonymous. How about all those KAL pilots who agree with no more sectors for F/o'S RGISTER THIS FACT anonymously on this thread. We know that KAL management and their pilots read this thread; so it will show our resolve and solidarity. Excellent summary of the minutes, thanks. I for one have stopped giving away sectors, as both a protest and also the recurring theme of being fed up with sitting on the edge of my seat at 50 feet wondering what's goi ng to happen in the next ten seconds. I for one do not relish the idea of sitting in the right hand seat whilst a local 'captain' performs as PIC. Did it two years ago, won't do it again.

[fdr]

:p

actually I think from watching some of your company "arrive" it would not take 10 seconds from 50' to "gentle alighting on the ground"

I would have guessed nearer to 4.2 sec.... VBG:>


keep smiling, it can be worse and probably will be!

[Morning Calm]

A new message on KE CREWLINK with a plea for our help! What nerve!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Captains,

As you are well aware, we are now facing an impending strike putting us in an emergency situation. We have set a contingency program for that acute situation and all concerned departments are urged to support it with all possible measures.

For the part of the program, some of our expatriate captains are requeted to fully cooperate with the company in unexpected schedules, righthand seat qualification training (RHS) and whatever that might be needed when the strike really takes place. The reason why we want you to go through RHS is that you are likely to do F/O job under inevitable circumstances because of insufficient First officers.

We understand that you"ll have to give up some days of your day off planned in advance and be given replacement schedule on short notice. But since this is an URGENT SITUATION, we would dearly like to have your kind understanding and utmost cooperation.

Best regards,

Flight Administration

Flight Operations

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Suggestion to all Foreign Captains on Days Off or Leave: DON'T ANSWER THE PHONE!

They don't appear to want to help any of us - so don't help them!

[choyo]

I have decided to volunteer for this RHS training plus working on my scheduled leave.............................in return for my 10%, my one months pay deduction, and return of credit for dead heading, and safety bonus. Seems fair........Oh and then I might give away a landing also.......well an autolanding. They are really taking the p$$$ now.

[Captain Kimchi]

Hello choyo

Don't think you'll be doing your RHS training or giving away landings (manual or autoland), as you WILL NOT get back your 10%, the safety bonus, lost travel days, lost leave days for every sickday taken or anything else management have stolen from us.

We all have contracts with the various agents but they're not worst the paper they're written on.

The Koreans have no respect or honour for anyone or anything not Korean!

It's high time we all stood up for our rights and as we're not permitted to strike, action in other suttle ways is the ONLY WAY TO GO!

We've all been asked to help out and stand-by the airline during the impending strike, well don't!

How is it that the locals (through their strike action) always seem to get everything they want and we end up with NOTHING, over and over again.

Lets ALL tell Flight Crew Administration to: F??? OFF!

I look forward to your support - EVERYONE!

[Jock747]

Strike - strike - strike ...........

If the National Pilots can do it -so can the Expats!

Good luck and keep us all posted ...............

[choyo]

Anyone know the latest? Talking to the F/O's it appears the Ceju guys are up for the strike but not the military guys.

[B737NG]

The voting finished yesterday and 73% of the hotspots voted to go on strike. Let`s see if they are able to go back on the table again together. The local media is not supportive for strike and the public oppionion is against the strike as well. Now it is time to use the power wisely and smarter then the counterpart on the other half of the table.

[flyguykorea]

Don't know exactly, but I've heard that about 1/3rd of the Koreans aren't involved in the union. Anyone know if that approximation is correct?

Wouldn't that mean the end result is 1/3rd + the 27% who voted against the strike?

As the previous poster said, the media is fully opposed to the strike which may be the ultimate factor in the coming days....

Murphy's law says they'll more than likely strike on the day I'm scheduled to fly out of this place for days off...

[Idunno]

When and where has 'The Media' ever been supportive of a pilots strike? :confused:

Pilots (in their eyes) are nothing more than overpaid, underworked prima donnas. Get used to that idea and forge on regardless. If you are waiting for the media to love you...don't hold your breath.

[Kaptin M]

It quite amazing, reading through the posts here, the similarities we expats have experienced with the Japanese.
With the exception of the impending strike, the stuff written here about the Koreans could as easily have been written about the Japanese.

Our contracts have been blatantly disregarded in several areas, but when the issue was raised with our contractor, no help was forthcoming - instead, subsequent contracts were downgraded to accomodate the (lower than western airlines') Japanese standards, eg. of safety, hygeine, and quality wrt accomodation.

When it suits the Japanese, we are subject to the same restrictive rules as the Japanese employees, but when it comes to benefits (eg. sick leave, days off, bonuses, staff travel), we are reminded that we are NOT employees of the company, but contracted labour!
Perhaps it's something the Koreans picked up from the Japanese during their occupation, or was it vice versa?
Either way, I had not previously experienced such discrimination, deceit and blatant, bare-faced lying in any other Asian country as I had until coming here.

As Captain Kimchi noted,We all have contracts with the various agents but they're not worst{sic...worth) the paper they're written on.and,
The Koreans have no respect or honour for anyone or anything not Korean!Substitute "Korean(s)" with "Japanese", as we foreigners have noticed the same attitude in Japan - probably a cover up for an inferiority complex.

So in a nutshell, (i) your employer is the contracting agency NOT KE - play those two off against each other, as they do you!
(ii) the company feels no obligation towards you, and they will screw you whenever they feel the desire;
(iii) the contracting company will not stand up for you, because they don't want to upset the one that pays THEM (and that AIN'T you!);
(iv) work to the contract - don't think that by giving something, you'll get something back. You won't!
(v) keep written records of contract violations, discrimination, etc for future reference. International Law has changed a lot over the past 8-10 years.
(vi) don't marginalise your position.
(vii) the "meetings" with the company are a waste of time (on your part).

[Morning Calm]

LATEST ON CREWLINK:

----------------------------------------------------------



Dear Captains,

We are very pleased to tell you that Safety bonus in question will be paid to all our expatriat catpains. The amount is KRW 1,470,000 (equivalent to the one of national captain) and it will go into your per diem bank account directly next week. We will let you know the exact date later.

We are sorry for somewhat late announcement, but we had to go through the agreements from several departments concerned, to finally get the approval from the President & CEO, Mr. Lee. Even though it was already planned last month, it took us quite a while, especially under current pending strike situation. We just hope that this late notice didn"t make you misunderstand our intention to share the benefits we"ve got with you.

In regard to RHS job, we understand there are some worries from captains that doing RHS job goes against KMOT rules or any regulations. But please rest assured that you won"t have any breach doing the job as we have the clause, 2.4.9 in FOTM (Flight Operations Training Manual) that allows captains to do RHS job. For your infomation, the FOTM was well authorized by KMOT. Let us quote that clause as follows (brief translation);

"Captain can do the job on the righthand seat after taking a required training course."

To keep you posted, Flight Crew Union (FCU) announced the vote result on Aug 2 (Mon) that more than 75% members agreed to go on a strike. The situation is getting worse and worse, even though there will be more talks between the company and FCU till Aug 6 (Fri).

We do really appreciate all your understanding and cooperations shown to us and hope to have the same attitude from you until the plight is over.

Best regards,

Flight Admin

Flight Operations, KAL

-------------------------------------------------------------

Personally, I think the Korean Pilots (Captains) are getting slightly more - but something is beter than nothing.

Isn't it amazing what a few complaints on this excellent forum can do?

I urge all Foreign Captains at KAL to support this forum and let KAL Management know exactly what we all feel!

Let's see what happens on Friday, 6th August?

[Won2Go]

Safety bonus was only paid after company management finally realised how strongly foreign pilots felt being excluded from a company-wide payment. Was given to ensure our co-operation during local pilot strike. Best guess is that it will occur on Sunday August 8th after talks break down without resolution on August 6th.

[Jock747]

Won2Go -

Fully agree with you and I thank whoever it was for posting the first thread on this subject as it's obviously helped everyone.

You're probably right on the proposed strike date!

Lets hope we don't have to do too much RHS flying with Korean Captains - ouch!

Morning Calm -

I agree that more Foreign Captains should contribute to this thread..........it's obviously read by the "folk that count"!

[Kaptin M]

Congratulations gents - it might appear that at least the Koreans are not as inflexible and discriminatory as the Japanese.
It would also seem apparent that any improvements you have been given have been WITHOUT the involvement of the agencies through which you are contracted!

It`s interesting to note that of those pilots who have resigned/finished their contracts here, ALL have entered jobs where they are directly employed by the airlines rather than through a contractor.

As an aside, does your contract not state that you are employed as a Captain?
RHS flying would entail using you as an F/O.
Also, we were given the assurance by our contractor that we would NOT be expected to be used as replacement staff during an industrial dispute (probably to save the name of the contractor - which would not want to acquire a reputation of supplying "strike-breakers"!!).

We in the contract world watch your events with interest.

I`m certain that KE expect to recruit more foreigners in the future, and that THEIR treatment of their own pilots, and non-Koreans should be unbiased, fair, and equitable (something the Japanese are Unable to understand.).

[choyo]

Why are we foreign pilots only receiving a third (or possibly less) of the safety bonus when compared to the local Koreans. Does this mean that the locals are 70% safer than the expats. Me thinks not. The incidents keep on occurring, and some are quite horrendous. I suggest that we post them here anonymously (obviously) so that the truth becomes obvious for all to see.

[FRying]

Gosh, what kind of incidents are you keeping refering to ??? Sounds quite terrible...

[choyo]

How about overcontrolling an MD11 to such an extent that the upper surface of the tailplane was delaminated.........and not reporting it. Or a 'cruise' captain disconnecting the autopilot in standing waves (why oh why?!) and losing control and stalling the aircraft to such an extent that the expat captain was pinned to the bunk. Or the ex chief pilot covering up a horrible incident in Nadi where the korean crew ignored the sid and atc commands, and also the gpws and flew straight at the hills, luck doesn't come into it. Or flying for three or four hours across Canada without making a radio call, I hope because they were asleep. It is known that both pilots on the freighter will leave the cockpit. Anyone else care to elaborate, these incidents and worse just keep happening, the arrogance is mind blowing....as is their complete lack of general airmanship. I picked up an aircraft recently at an outstation and the nav aids were still manually tuned to NCN both vors, even though they had just flown for almost seven hours.

[FlexibleResponse]

… Safety bonus in question will be paid to all our expatriat catpains…

We are sorry for somewhat late announcement, but we had to go through the agreements from several departments concerned, to finally get the approval from the President & CEO, Mr. Lee. Even though it was already planned last month, it took us quite a while, especially under current pending strike situation. We just hope that this late notice didn"t make you misunderstand our intention to share the benefits we"ve got with you.
Honest as the day is long. These guys really take the cake!

Good luck to all KE crew.

[choyo]

Bunch of dishonorable and untrustworthy :mad:

[Captain Sushi]

Honorable choyo, one fails to understand what you are hoping to achieve by publishing disparaging comments about another.

Be gracious, and allow your enemy to discerdit himself - as he surely will - if that which you have said about him is indeed correct.

But on the other side of the leaf, grant him the dignity to rescue himself from his previous ambiguities without being constantly reminded of his former shortcomings.

Let he who is without fault, cast the first accusation.
The sun shines eternally new, with each daybreak.

[choyo]

Shall not rise to the bait!

[asianaav8r]

Herewith Part 1 of a copy of a letter to management: (Part 2 in the next thread as these threads are limited to 12,500 characters) -

QUOTE:

29th July, 2004

REF: Safety Bonus & Foreign Crew Recognition.

Dear Sir,

We the Korean Air foreign pilots would appreciate if you could kindly enlighten us as to our status within the company.

Recently Korean Air announced the presentation of a Safety Bonus for all Korean Air staff and, once again for unknown reasons, the foreign pilots who are instrumental and possibly the largest contributors to Korean Air flight safety were excluded from this program.

We understand that the Safety Bonus is presented when the set safety target is met during a twelve- month period. All Korean staff (even the one’s who spend their entire working period behind a desk firmly anchored to the office floor at various Korean Air buildings) are eligible for this bonus, yet the foreign pilots who are at the forefront of this company’s daily flight operations are totally excluded from this program!

We are all baffled and amazed at this unexplained exclusion and are unable to come to any practical or intelligent conclusion in regards to this unacceptable decision by the Korean Air Flight management.
We feel that our exclusion could be due to one of the following reasons;
• Foreign pilots are considered to be highly professional, competent and flight safety is ingrained in our approach to duty and therefore undeserving of any recognition or reward;
• Foreign pilots are considered to be unsafe and incompetent and no amount of reward or incentive is likely to change our attitude or improve our approach to flight safety;
• And / Or the formula devised to calculate the safety bonus was specifically designed to exclude the foreign Captains, as their contribution to flight safety is considered to be insignificant.

The Flight Operations department has to accept an inviolable fact that the foreign Captains, who are from varying and diverse background, freely impart their experience and knowledge (without any monetary or other reward) by teaching and discussing many aviation related issues with Korean Air’s future Captains (i.e. your current First Officers).
This will prove to be an invaluable asset in the future and in reality no monetary value can be assigned to this generous and voluntary attitude of the foreign pilots in Korean Air. Additionally most of the Korean First Officers maintain their flight currency due to the positive attitude and approach of the foreign Captains.

One other fact that cannot be ignored is that over the years our experience, professionalism and approach to flight procedures have made substantial contribution to the bottom line of Korean Air’s balance sheet by substantially reducing fuel consumption, maintenance cost (reduced flight time) and possibly reducing insurance premiums.

UNQUOTE

Part 2 follows:

PART 2:

QUOTE:

Astoundingly, once again Korean Air Flight Operations management is requesting the foreign pilots to cooperate in anticipation of the forthcoming industrial dispute with the FCU and yet unashamedly the following points have never been given due consideration:
• Our per diem rate has not been reviewed for an unacceptably long period;
• Unilateral changes to our contract continue unabated, without any personal and legal considerations or consultations;
• Foreign pilots are required to personally finance any and all transition training costs with no program or recourse to recoup this high cost;
• Loss of previously awarded pay increment (annual CPI adjustment) on transition to another fleet (this is yet another example of the unethical manner in which Korean Air management conducts it affairs with the unrepresented foreign pilots);
• Frequent pay reductions are implemented and the demand for acceptance of these pay-cuts is accompanied with implicit threat of redundancy;
• Boeing 744 foreign Captains were forced to accept four days unpaid leave during the last SAR’s epidemic without any explanation or negotiations;
• Recent illegal suspension of a foreign pilot without pay while his case was under USA TSA department review.

Flight operations department has also failed to establish and implement a firm and fair policy on transition training program, to date three differing policies have been applied;
• Foreign pilots offered full conversion training by Korean Air, trainee required to repay the cost of training over a period of two years. Hotel accommodation and per diem paid in full during the training period and trainee on full pay for the duration of the training period.
• Foreign pilots instructed to outsource conversion training and personally finance the cost. No accommodation or per diem cost assistance offered, trainee on full pay for the duration of training period.
• Foreign pilots instructed to outsource conversion training and personally finance the cost. No accommodation or per diem cost assistance offered, and informed to accumulate days off or apply for leave for the duration of the training period (i.e. 28 days without pay)! This last policy is the worst case scenario for the trainee in terms of long duration of absence from home and loss on 28 days pay.
From the above mentioned facts, it is quite clear that training policies are unfair, inconsistent and applied impulsively.
Korean Air Flight Operations management clearly lacks professional, ethical and acceptable standards when it comes to establishing and implementing rules and regulations applicable to its foreign pilot workforce.

We would like to take this opportunity to refresh the memory of Korean Air Flight Operations management by emphasizing a few points (among many others) of our contribution to Korean Air:
 Acceptance of 10% pay-cut for one year, during the 1997 economic downturn in Asia;
 Forced pay-cut (imposed on foreign crew only) for a period of 10 months in the aftermath of 9/11 terrorist attacks in USA. This was implemented as a result of Korean Air management’s perception that a major downturn would occur in business travel. In reality Korean Air had record bookings and made record profits in the same 10-month period in which this pay-cut applied;
 Four days forced unpaid leave imposed on B744 fleet foreign Captains only, during the last SAR’s epidemic outbreak;
 Support to flight operations during the last three industrial disputes that Korean Air experienced with the FCU. This support was burdensome on the family members of the foreign crew, as family plans were disrupted by cancellation and changes to previously planned days off or vacation.
To date none of these contributions have been recognised in any form by the Korean Air management, in particular by the Flight Operations department. It is obvious that Korean Air management policies do not take into consideration or reward the industries’ most valued aspects of dedication, commitment and long term service.

Korean Air managements continued tolerance of employing the services of unprofessional, self-serving and unqualified human resource agencies is of a major concern to all the foreign pilots, these agencies are not concerned about the wellbeing of the company nor the pilots. The agencies rarely take into account the welfare of the pilots and are invariably late in responding to all important queries and issues.
Most of the agencies are owned and run by ex-pilots or people from various other background who have no professional qualification or training in Human Resource management, additionally many of the agencies are registered on off-shore third world islands (e.g. Vanuatu etc) where the transparency of the legal system is at best questionable, the company (agency) structure is specifically designed to enable these agencies to cover up any unilateral and illegal actions and to avoid the possibility of defending any legitimate litigations.
We respectfully request the company to monitor the activities of the agencies and ensure that the agents conduct their business and dealings with pilots in an legal, professional and acceptable frame work and do not engage in any illegal (they have delayed salary payment or retained the salary all together without any notice or negotiations and the agents must forced to pay the salary on time, that means the money should be deposited into the pilots account by the last day of the month), threatening or bullying tactics.

The foreign pilots appreciate the meetings with Capt. Lee Young-Duck, but have some reservations as to the real purpose of these meetings; we have had three meetings with Capt. Lee Young-Duck in the Hyatt Hotel crew lounge and have raised many issue regarding our personal contracts, safety, procedural and improvements in productivity and flight economics. But to date, we have not been informed or noticed any changes as a result of these suggestions. We therefore wonder whether these meetings are just a PR exercise as a part of Capt. Lee Young-Duck’s management plan or if either party is ever going to benefit from exchange of views at these meetings.

During the last general meeting with Capt. Lee Young-Duck in the Hyatt Hotel, the foreign pilots raised the issue regarding the possibility of being included in Korean Air Safety Bonus scheme, refund of 10% salary implemented in the aftermath of 9/11 attacks, review of our per diem rate and reconsideration on the highly contagious and unethical issue relating to unilateral changes to our contract (among many other issues). Unfortunately Capt. Lee Young-Duck, as a senior member of Korean Air Flight Operations team, was at loss of words and failed to respond in any positive and acceptable manner (maybe he was unprepared and did not expect this issue to be raised). The Foreign Pilots deserve a more qualified, positive and an honest response from the senior management.

Surging oil prices to record levels in the world market, combined with lack in implementation and establishment of any practical, realistic procedures or policy by Korean Air management to conserve or reduce unacceptably (by industry standards) high fuel consumption is of real concern to the foreign pilot workforce.
Long established operating procedures (poor flight procedures, skills and training, early release of CFP results in unrealistic flight operating data and no practical procedure in place to update actual operating weights in timely manner) result in uneconomical and wasteful operating environment.
We suspect that this unchecked and uneconomical fuel consumption (resulting in high operating costs and reduced profits) will once again provide Korean Air management an excuse to target the foreign pilots (exclusively) for another pay-cut.

A continued autocratic approach in handling changes to our contracts is unacceptable and in many circumstances illegal. This unethical process needs to succumb and all previous unilateral changes require immediate review.
If the contract review process remains unconstrained and one-sided we will be forced to seek legal advice on the possibility and legality of forming a labour union in Korea to represent the foreign pilots.
We understand that recent legislative changes in the Korean labour law, specifically those relating to foreign workers, now provide a legal framework for foreign workers to form a representative labour union within Korean laws.

Under the aforementioned circumstances, we are all rather astonished at the audacity of Korean Air flight operations department’s request for and expecting our full, indisputable support and cooperation. It is baffling that Korean Air is now requesting full support from the very group of employees that have been penalised in an arbitrary manner and treated with disrespect bordering on contempt.

The current atmosphere among the foreign pilots is highly charged due to fact that all of the above mentioned issues remain unresolved, plus the concerns regarding the safety aspect (most serious events and accidents occur when two Captains are crewed to operate together) and legality of right seat operations in the event of a strike by FCU.

Respectfully,
Korean Air, Foreign Captains.

UNQUOTE

[Scarebus PIC]

What's with you guy's from "down under" - nothing better to do?

Thought you were all rushed off your feet with all this flying and dead heading you're always complaining about?

I agree with Asianaav8r and strongly urge all Foreign Captains to NOT sign any of these letters .............

Not all Foreign Captains agree with everything that's been said in these letters!

Hope the "other" letter is posted on this site soon!

[asianaav8r]

QUOTE

Attn: Foreign Crew Members.

As foreign crew in Korean Air are not organised nor have a representative union, its difficult to cooperate on any issues relating to our work or contract.

Korean Air accepts the fact that majority of the foreign pilots will just rollover and accept whatever the management decides to dish out.

Only a handful of foreign pilots are vocal and demand fairness and respect, but this minority is easily ignored in the larger community of foreign pilots.

Management is also aware of the fact, that the agents, to date have never ever forcefully protested, represented or demanded for a review of any issues relating to our terms and conditions of contract nor our interests.
The agents are only interested in retaining their lucrative relationship with the company rather than represent the best interest of the pilots.

Now is an opportune time to show solidarity and ensure that Korean Air management respects our contribution to the safety and profitability of the company.

We should also respectfully demand immediate cessation of the non-stop, unethical and illegal one-sided changes to our contract.

They attached letter has been emailed to Senior VP Flight Operations and other Korean Air senior management, it covers most of the important points that concern all of us and impact our daily life and operations.

Many foreign pilots may not appreciate or agree with the contents of the message posted to the management, to these pilots I say “tough luck, its time to stand up and be counted and demand recognition of our contribution and the respect that is rightful and long overdue to the professional and dedicated foreign pilot community in Korean Air.

Yours truly,
Concerned Group Of Foreign Pilots!

UNQUOTE

Still trying to get hold of the other two letters in circulation!

[flyguykorea]

So you won't be objecting to any additional pay cuts in lieu of rising fuel prices, another round of SARS or the like? If those guys are at the center of this, then I say more power to them for taking a stand.

And will you be graciously accepting your safety bonus? Or perhaps donating it to the KAL FCU as a contribution towards the next camp site they decide to establish on the 8th floor of the OC building?


Standards are not the problem, the problem is that two of them exist...one for the Koreans, and one for the foreigners.

[Airbubba]

I just hope things turn out well, it's not a good time to be looking for a flying job from what I can see...

[Morning Calm]

As the sun rises over the Sea of Japan (which the Korean's refer to as "the East Sea"), I have read the recent postings on this thread with great interest and feel that Sacarebus PIC is to be commended for opening this thread as it appears that we're slowly getting what's owed to us here at KAL.

It's a real pity that more crews haven't commented on this thread as I'm positive this is read by KAL's admin and management departments.

The letters written to management are extremely well worded but you must remember that these letters are written by 744 and 777 drivers who have very little to loose. Those on the Classic or 737 fleets have much to loose and shouldn't get involved as management will I'm sure, retaliate in some way or another.

With reference to naming individuals, this I feel is wrong despite what we all think of any individual.

This is a very public forum and it's unfair to point fingers at any particular individual.

Personally, I feel these letters can only help the foreigners and it's high time management take note of our concerns.

My compliments to the author of these letters!

A question to Asianaav8r - how are you getting KAL info? And where's the "other" letter?

[Airbubba]

Like I said, one of the guys is good with documents...

[Captain Sushi]

A330 Retard san, you and many like you were asked to sign a contract offered to you, and which you, in good faith, expected would be honored.

Is it so unfair of you to expect to be given that which you were promised, in return for you honoring your contract?

If a father has two children, should he not treat them equally?

Honorable choyo, there was no bait, merely a suggestion that it is all too easy to unravel a hand woven garment that has taken many hours to knit, by pulling on one thread.

[Frenzy]

So do people here plan on leaving this dishonorable and untrustworthy airline for greener pastures?

I mean why put up with the BS,just simply leave and find employment back home where you can be with your family & be in the working environment which suits you.
I'm sure the money wouldn't be an issue.

[Captain Kimchi]

Lets stay on the centerline guys………we started off by attacking KAL’s management for the way we’re being treated and now some of you are defending KAL and openly attacking our fellow colleagues!

The “authors” of the various letters to KAL management are to be complimented and not ridiculed for their actions! At least some of us seem to have the balls to take management on, despite their motives!

Unless we stand united, we have no hope in hell of improving the quality of life on the Korean peninsula or raising the standards in general.

[flyguykorea]

Well said Capt. Kimchi.

It's all well and good attacking others here on this forum, but those who do so, do under the protection of anonymity.

Those who stood up and had the guts to put pen to paper should be applauded for their stand.

One for all and all for one, I say.

[asianaav8r]

A message on KAL's CREWLINK was sent to everyone who co-signed the letter from Dave Gerrard to management requesting an explanation as to why they signed the letter in the first place!

Guess heads will roll as KAL management are determined to show their strength!

God help anyone who signed any of these letters!

There are vacancies here at ASIANA for anyone seeking employment ...........

Best of luck!

[Belowclouds]

Asiana, any chance to get more info about this company? Can you contact me on my PM or e-mail. Yours is unaccessible. Thanks

[Atlantic Baron]

Dear BelowClouds
I wouldn't get too hopeful about help from Asinaaav8r.
I suspect he's just someone who likes stirring on forums!
KAL probably will be recruiting again soon, and in spite of the justified moans and groans, it is a reasonable contract.
It is hard work with lots of frustrations - yes, I did sign THAT letter - but things are getting better in many ways, the flying is fun, and most of the local pilots are friendly and helpful as far as their English language skills allow. If the US dollar could recover its former value the pay would be fairly good!
It's certainly not Korean Air's fault that the dollar has crashed.

[asianaav8r]

Atlantic Baron: I see you¡¯re new to PPRune as you¡¯ve only posted one thread!

I¡¯m not a stirrer as you seem to think! Was Dave Gerrard not called in to the office very soon after he submitted his letter? Within hours I believe! Did management not send out a CREWLINK message to all the signatories to Gerrard¡¯s letter?

I haven¡¯t criticized KAL or the working conditions, I have only stated facts and trust me when I say that there will be repercussions to all that were party to the letters!

Senior management are only waiting for the return of your AVP from his days off to fully address this problem.

I agree that the working conditions at KAL are probably the best there is for us contract pilots but you all agreed and accepted the terms and conditions of employment before you signed on so it¡¯s no use bitching about the conditions now. Management may have been wrong in altering terms and conditions without the agreement of the foreign pilots but this is to be expected in this part of the world.

You¡¯ve been given a portion of what the local¡¯s received as a safety bonus (approximately 30%) so why not push for the rest?

I congratulate the authors of these letters in question, but you must remember that they have very little to loose. Any former BA/Cathay/Lufthansa or Qantas pilot, only here to top up their pensions can say what they like but anyone else is treading on very thin ice!

Why only this morning (Monday 16 Aug), Messrs. Chung and Jun in your administration department were given the list of signatories (names and employee numbers) from Senior management ........... I wonder why?

[Captain Kimchi]

Gentlemen:

Once again, you’re straying from the main objectives here, and that is to draw management’s attention to the concerns of the foreign pilots at KAL.

The letters submitted by whomever have obviously touched a very sensitive nerve and as a result, there may be changes (for the better) in the weeks and months to come.

There may also be retaliation from KE’s management but this is to be expected.

Personally, I feel any retaliation will be against the authors and not the signatories of these letters.

Our “safety bonus” has been paid and this I’m sure was a direct result of the postings on this website.

If our 10% pay cut, sick days, loss of deadhead time, scheduling problems etc etc are addressed by management, then we only have the authors of these letters to thank – someone needed to speak up!

Management’s real concern is that the foreign pilots who have served with a Korean corporation for a specified number of years are now legally able to establish their own union under new Korean Government legislature!

[choyo]

Well, why don't we start to form a union, or at least a pilots association? And what can management do to those of us who cosigned this letter. I would like to know, should I be concerned........me thinks no.

[B737NG]

Concerned only if there is no change to the better, it would be needed indeed.

[Morning Calm]

If conditions for the foreign captains doesn't improve in the very near future, I forsee a mass exodus of 744, 777, 737 and possibly 330 captains to mainland China, now recruting foreign pilots through various agencies - Rishworth, Euro Pacific etc.

Same days off and travel benefits, but a better income package I hear.

Anyone interested in seeking greener pasyures (without the possibility of blue tails on the landscape) contact the agencies without delay.

We've got a portion of the Safety Bonus and rumor has it that a 10% per diem increase in in the pipeline! 20-30% would be more in line with current costs and inflation rates!

[SELKAL FU-KE]

Morning Calm:

I think your infomation is incorrect........we (the foreign captains) all got exactly what the national captains received as a Safety Bonus.

Secondly, there's no talk of a per diem increase and this came straight from the AVP who returned from his days of on Monday.

You are right however on the China recruitment drive and I already have an application on it's way to one of the agents mentioned.

My compliments to "the Authors" of the various letters in question as your efforts have been actioned by KAL Management!

PPRUne Moderators:

Have some threads to this posting been removed or modified? There was an A330 Retard who made some fairly serious statements about "the Authors" in question but these appear to have been removed!

[flyguykorea]

There was an A330 Retard...

...I've seen more than one A330 retard sitting in the right hand seat...

(tounge firmly planted in cheek) :p

[A330 Retard]

As the saying goes: "THE TRUTH ALWAYS HURTS"

My posting where I named the Authors of these letters have obviously touched a nerve with the parties concerned and it would appear that the PPRune moderators (fearing any litigation) have removed these postings.

Without mentioning names (as this posting will no doubt also be removed), the former A600 captain, now a 400 driver who is extremely good with his "pen-work" is often seen on his days off in the OC Building "smooching" with senior management and claiming that he has DDO's ear!

This nasty individual obviously suffers from what is commonly called: "little man syndrome".

Yes- the truth hurts!

Perhaps a communication with his former employers in Kuwait will verify his past experience!

The agencies do very little background checks, as all they're concerned with is putting "bums in seats" and getting their fees!

Lets see how long this posting is kept on before being "moderated"?

[wilco77]

I am not from Korean(KAL) but I understand what the local pilots are going through, having to fly with you guys..

Remember it is their airline and their country you have a job in.
Be gratefull to them for giving you a job, and I am very sure if they did not hire you guys, 50% of you guys would be on the street JOBLESS because the company you'll' used to work for in your own country went BANKRUPT.

So guys if you dont like what they are doing to your pay or life "LEAVE", go back to your OWN country and try and get a job.
Go work for all those low cost start-ups in your country and then compare them with KAL and see who treats you better or who pays you better.

Remember dont take your frustrations out on your first officers or other colleagues just because you dont get what you want.
You call yourselves Captains

:mad:

[flyguykorea]

I am not from Korean(KAL) but I understand what the local pilots are going through, having to fly with you guys..

How you could possibly understand if you have no exposure to the airline?

And let's put it on the other foot...how about what we guys have to go through when flying with a local F/O?? (not generalizing that all are bad pilots, either).

It may not be our country or our airline, but we were brought in for a reason, and a damn good one at that. We are considered "employees" of the airline and we deserve not to be treated like :mad: and have double standards applied.

[Frenzy]

what we guys have to go through when flying with a local

Really why put up with BS?
If it's too much of a headache then simply forget KE & leave,maybe back home to be with your family & in an environment which suits you best.

It's not like someone is forcing you to stay,there are plenty of airlines hiring atm so there are other options.

Please don't take it the wrong way,i'm not trying to stir you up.



:}

[B737NG]

I just tell you a little story happend in the the past days here:

F/O who is the PF starts to desend on a VISUAL pattern without fear below 1000 ft Radio ALtimeter on Base.... I asked him to maintain 1000 ft until 3 miles final he still desends with -750 ft. I asked him again to maintain now 900 ft and no reaction...... at 800 ft I could not resist and pushed the ALT Hold. It did not surprise me at all. So I did my job and monitored the progress. What would have happen if another CM1 would be on the left seat? GPWS is not for normal operation..... but it seems sometimes. Did my colluage learned anything ?? No I fear not.
That is just a usual thing, We do not blame the F/O`s. They can only ba as good as they are trained and there is a huge area who ask`s for improvement. Believe me, what you read here in this forum is just the peak if the Iceberg.......
The Airline I worked before is still in business and I would have a job there as well. Here are not the "leftovers" of the industrie. Just to look at the other side of the coin... why do you think KAL had about 50 resignations since 2002.... after 9/11 even???

NG

[Morning Calm]

Herewith, Management's initial reply to "the letters" sent out on CREWLINK on Thursday 19 August 2004:

----------------------------------------------------------------

Dear Captains,

Recently we’ve got two letters directly addressed to the top management from two captains, one with an anonymous name by e-mail and the other by fax with signatures of some of foreign captains.

We understand that those two letters raise concerns about some issues and have a message that the company hasn’t been treating foreign captains fairly and respectfully. We have well recognized about the said concerns, and are writing this to mention some of our efforts trying to give you the full treatment in the hope of getting rid of some misunderstanding, if any.

1. Safety Bonus: As you are well aware, there’s no our obligation in the contract about Safety Bonus, but we’ve decided to include all our foreign captains in the program. Contrary to popular belief, the decision wasn’t made by or after the letters. No company would just give unplanned and sizable money due to some complaints. Please just be advised that we are always willing to express our gratitude for the dedication of our foreign captains.

2. Regular meetings: There have been three meetings lately between the company and foreign captains. The regular meeting is one of our attempts to move one step closer to our captains to understand and satisfy their needs as much as we can. We don’t believe we can expect much from just those three-time meetings, but we do believe it will help us build a good relationship in the long term.

3. Farewell program: From the last month we started a farewell program to present an appreciation plaque and a gift to the captains who retire with more than 5-year service or who resign after his 10-year service. There were recently two captains (Capt. Froelich and Capt. Stieber) who enjoyed the ceremony and they were pleased with the company’s showing appreciation for their good performance in their assignment period.

4. Others: There are also several items we have done or have been working on to improve working conditions of our foreign captains, e.g. backing captains in choosing their agencies when extending the contract, allowing captains to choose their staying hotel when having SIM training, extending the benefit of FOC ticket to stepchildren, etc.

Please rest assured that we will study the raised issues in the letters that are not mentioned above together with whatever issues that may arise in the future and take necessary action for the well-being of our foreign captains. However we’d appreciate if you not simply compare every condition to that of national captains since you, foreign captains, are working on a totally different set of conditions. For instance, we have to put you on a monthly flight schedule with a rest period other than the consecutive days off at your home lasting at least 9 days.

Lastly, we are very concerned about the way some of our captains have chosen to assert their points of view. We believe that going straight to the top management without taking appropriate steps is not only a unprofessional manner, but also is disregard of proper procedure in the company. As there are several channels you could use such as Flight Admin, Chief Pilot, Scheduling Team and other relevant departments, we recommend that you go through proper channels for any items you want to lodge from now on.

We do hope that you understand our endeavor to support you as much as we can and follow above guidelines about registering your valuable opinions hereafter.

Yours Sincerely,

W.Y. Maeng
Managing Vice President
Flight Operations, Korean Air

----------------------------------------------------------

Well worded for someone who hardly speaks (or understands) a word of English!

[Scarebus PIC]

wilco 77

-------------------------------------
Be grateful to them for giving you a job
-------------------------------------

We’re here for a damn good reason – “SAFETY”. The major insurance companies have made it a requirement that KAL has a certain percentage of highly experienced and qualified foreign captains.

-------------------------------------
...the company you used to work for in your own country went BANKRUPT….
-------------------------------------

This is an incorrect statement as most of us are from highly reputable airlines which are still operational.


-------------------------------------
Remember don’t take your frustrations out on your first officers or other colleagues just because you don’t get what you want
-------------------------------------

Who’s frustrated, we’re only airing our points of view and attempting to get what’s due to us and get back what was stolen from us when we all took a 10% involuntary pay cut!

-------------------------------------
You call yourselves Captains
-------------------------------------

Yes, which is more than I can say for you and your language skills!

flyguykorea

Well put! Only guys exposed to the day to day operations in KAL with the locals can truly understand what we have to put up with! There is a “double standard” and this is not right!

Frenzy

We put up with this BS (as you put it) because this is a damn good contract with excellent days off and commuting facilities!

choyo

We can’t start a Union as we legally do not work for a Korean Company – we all work for various internationally located agencies who second us to KAL!

B737NG

The list goes on and on with new incidents being added to the list daily! Only recently, an MD11 (with a local in the LHS) accrued 4 FOQA events on an approach into ANC!

[Bulgogi Flyer]

Fellow KAL Crews:

I’ve read great interest all the postings (current and removed) from this posting and one thing you’re all missing is “Korean Culture”!

No one is ever going to change the Korean mentality and we all need to remember that there is no “lateral thinking”! I’d even go as far to say that within the airline itself, there is no inter-department communications and top management is not aware of the everyday problems faced by the airline which lower management conceals with great pride.

Every 2 to 3 years, senior management is changed and there’s a clean sweep of all department heads. The present “force in power” is probably the worst we’ve seen for a great number of years.

Within KAL, there are approximately 1,750 pilots, of which 250 are foreign.

Of the 1,500 or so Korean pilots, there are 1,300 in the FCU of which 60% are military and 40% civilian (ie. Cheju trained).

The FCU is split and KAL will never allow any foreign pilot to join the FCU. The military contingent of the FCU would also boycott any such move as they all know that the foreigners would naturally side with the Cheju pilots.

The military pilots are given a 4 year seniority over the Cheju pilots and whilst this may be wrong and not practiced anywhere else in the aviation industry, this ruling will remain in force for the foreseeable future.

I believe we all agree that the military pilots (within KAL) are the worst there are and the Cheju pilots are better. When I say better, I refer to their overall outlook, mentality, airmanship, CRM skills and general attitude towards the foreigners.

The military pilots are arrogant, self opinionated, tunnel visioned, and are very poor aviators with absolutely no CRM skills whatsoever.

Unfortunately, senior (Korean) management is also ruled by the military and “the old boy” network is very evident in the day to day management and operations of the airline.

We’re here because the aviation authorities of the USA, Canada, Australia, UK, France and Germany, to name but a few; and the major insurance underwriters have insisted that there be a certain percentage of foreign pilots in KAL. Were it not for these outside demands, we wouldn’t be here in the first place.

Overall, whilst the crews we’re forced to fly with may be marginal, we are all experienced and proficient pilots capable of handling most situations in the cockpit, this is an excellent contract with good days-off/leave/travel and salary structure which would be hard to match elsewhere. Some of you talk about moving on to greener pastures, and if you do feel so strongly about this, then please leave and stop all this bitching on this very public forum. There are a great number of us who are on our second and third five year contracts and we’re extremely happy here. Some of us have been lucky enough to have been upgraded to larger types which is not a common practice for contract pilots in other airlines.

We were all given an opportunity in reviewing our contracts before we signed them, so we were all well aware of the terms and conditions therein. We also had a choice as to which contractor/agent we signed up with and on many contract renewals, we were also given the opportunity in changing contractors is we so desired. KAL Administration were fully agreeable to any pilot changing contractors despite the contractors wishes to take legal action against pilots who did wish to change.

The 10% pay cut was an issue which was taken up with all the pilots through their contractors/agents and any pilot not agreeing to this pay cut was given the opportunity to resign. The loss of overtime for double and extra crewing only effects the 744 and 777 pilots so addressing this issue in the recent “letters” on behalf of all the foreign pilots was wrong.

Also, sending in a letter anonymously was wrong and the author of this letter needs to be disciplined by KAL management and the foreign pilot contingent. We have our suspicions as to who this individual is so let’s address him directly and not criticize him on this public forum.

The loss of days off for sick days taken and the demand for an increase in allowances are matters presently being discussed with senior management but during this period of increasing oil prices this is perhaps not a good time to discuss such financial matters.

The recent safety bonus was a bonus as far as the foreign pilots are concerned as it is not stated in anyone’s contract that they should benefit from KAL’s employee reward scheme which the local pilots are entitled to. Had it not been the threat of a strike hanging over management’s heads, this bonus would not have been paid to us. It just so happens that the announcement of the safety bonus coincided with the strike threat and KAL needed the support of all the foreign pilots.

No contract is ever 100% perfect, working conditions are never to the total satisfaction of all employees and the bottom line is, if your not happy, move on. No one is forcing us to stay and for everyone who wishes to leave, there are at least 10 other guys out there ready to fill our seats.

For the “pension toppers” here – consider yourselves lucky that you are able to top up your pensions, tax free with the knowledge that you’re also depriving the pilots on the 737 and 747 fleets from upgrades to the 744 and 777 fleets. Many of you were signatories to one of the letters and to make further demands is quite extraordinary and very selfish! You guys are also the most vocal in the crew room and at the V.P Line Ops monthly meetings! Your not welcome here, either by the locals or the foreigners!

Do us all a favor, and if you are an ex-BA, Cathay, Lufthansa or Qantas pilots, go home! To add fuel to fire, I think it’s disgusting that one of you ex-BA pilots has recently retired from KAL and has now taken up a position with ALTEON as an instructor – do you really need the extra income so badly?

In closing, let’s get on with our lives and do what we were contracted to do!

[Morning Calm]

Message to "BULGOGI FLYER"

Your facts are somewhat outdated.

KAL have 1900 pilots, of which 1200 are active members of the FCU and the percentages you stated are reversed. The FCU membership is made up of 40% Military and 60% Cheju. As far as the Foreign Captains are concerned, there are now ONLY 220 and not 250.

The Military pilots are given a 3 year seniority and not 4 years. It used to be 4 years but this was recently changed.

With reference to the Safety Bonus, the ONLY reason we felt it was also due to all the Foreign Captains was the fact that the initial CREWLINK letter was addressed to ALL Korean Air personnel, nationals and foreigners.

Since January 2002, Korean Air have lost 80 Foreign Captains and more are leaving in the very near future.

Nice username/alias by the way! Hope Captain Kimchi doesn't get to upset?

[KEFLYR]

Morning Calm: In response to your posting on 11/08 at 0104, here's the "other letter"

KAL Foreign Captains

Hyatt Regency Hotel, Incheon
03 August 2004

Mr Cho, Yang Ho
The Chairman
Korean Airlines BY HAND

Dear Sir,
Re: An open letter of concern from the KAL Foreign Captains

We, the foreign pilots, are appealing to you as the Chairman of this company to consider some issues which we believe you may not be aware of, concerning safety issues affecting the airline and what we consider to be unfair treatment of us.
Following a series of safety incidents some years ago, the foreign captains were employed by Korean Airlines in an attempt to improve the safety standards of the airline. We came from a variety of international carriers. All of us came with years of flying experience and with the experience of good management and flying techniques, as are practiced by the other international carriers. Fortunately, as a consequence of the introduction of the foreign captains and increased attention to the training of the Korean pilots, the safety record of the airline has improved significantly.
However, we do have some other concerns regarding the acknowledgement of this new safety standard and on-going safety issues, which may disrupt the safety record of the airline in the future unless they are addressed.
We are also concerned, that the longer this accident free period has continued, the treatment and respect of the foreign captains has deteriorated. We feel as a group, that on many occasions, the company has arbitrarily changed our contractual conditions and treated us in a discriminatory fashion.

Our concerns are as follows:

PILOT FATIGUE

The practice of the foreign captain’s working hours in excess of generally accepted flying limits is of concern to all of us. This is an issue regarding the future safety of the airline.
The practice of the scheduler, scheduling captains to fly both east and west without acknowledging the fatigue factor involved in this practice and in not providing sufficient rest to accommodate the time zone adjustment requirements, is of concern to us all. Eg on the Boeing 777, some foreign captains have been scheduled to fly from Incheon to Chicago and then back to Incheon, 24hrs rest, then Incheon to Dubai and back to Incheon, and then with only 18 hours rest Incheon to Chicago.
Most major airlines follow firmly established practices in scheduling with established legal rest requirements, for east west flying. Most major airlines also have government legislation, dictating minimum rest periods with east west flying. This does not happen in Korea. Therefore, it is the responsibility of Korean airlines to ensure there are sensible scheduling guidelines. We’re concerned, that the scheduling in KAL does not follow the internationally accepted guidelines and doesn’t account adequately for the fatigue factor.
To give adequate rest during extended periods of continuous duty, the KAL Flight Operations Manual used to allow crews one calendar day off in seven. This has now been changed to one twenty four hour period off in seven days. This is detrimental to flight safety, particularly for the foreign captains, as we can quite often be away from our home base, scheduled to fly for three weeks or longer, and leads to cumulative fatigue.

ILLNESS

Twice a year, all aircrew receive a crew link message from the company, reminding us that operating whilst sick is an infringement on flight safety. This is particularly emphasised during the bi annual ground school training period, by the aero medical doctor. However the company penalises us if we take sick leave.
In the foreign captain’s case, there is a misinterpretation by the administrative staff, of our contract, that if we are sick, then we are not entitled to our monthly two days annual leave.
In the case of the national first officers, they lose annual entitlements, if they take a certain number of sick days. This is of particular concern to flight safety, as the F/O’s tend to work if they’re sick, with the obvious repercussion of potentially infecting other cockpit staff and not being able to work to their full capacity.

OPERATING IN THE RIGHT HAND SEAT

In regard to the possible strike action by the Korean pilots that threatens the airline in the near future, the foreign captains have been requested to assist the company by operating as first officers and sitting in the right hand seat of the cockpit. There are numerous concerns regarding this situation.
Historically it has been shown that 2 captains flying together leads to safety issues regarding conflict in the cockpit, in respect of the ultimate authority. This possible conflict has caused accidents in the past in other airlines.
Also, two foreign captains operating together without a Korean pilot present means there is no Korean radio license onboard. Our understanding is that this is illegal.

SAFETY PERFORMANCE BONUS

We acknowledge that the Korean pilots were given a bonus for their services to the company in the achievement of the greater safety of the airline. This is commendable. We are proud to be a part of an incident free airline and welcome the recent news of 55 months of incident free flying. However, we are very disappointed to note that no such bonus was given to the foreign captains. We as a group have contributed significantly to the safety record of the airline, after all this is what we were employed to do and we have not received any acknowledgement for our contribution. We feel the only conclusion we can draw from this is that we are being racially discriminated against.

ARBITRARY CONTRACTUAL CHANGES

The foreign pilots who work with Korean airlines, are employed on a five year contractual basis with individual contractors. Within the contracts are the details of our arrangements with Korean Airlines. We have all signed the contracts relating to our work entitlements and conditions, with the understanding that, we will honour the agreement and make a commitment to the company and the company will do the same. Approximately 2 years ago, Korean Airlines changed our contract (without consultation) in regard to the credited hours that we are paid and reduced our pay by 10%. We were threatened with termination of employment if we didn’t sign an amendment to the contract reflecting these changes as permanent. We expected that the company would also honour their contractual obligations without intimidation. These are blackmail tactics and it was a dishonourable action on behalf of KAL.
This change in pay credit for hours flown, means all foreign captains work excessive actual flying hours, before overtime becomes applicable. This means the schedulers can schedule the foreign captains to maximum legal hours each month, without any overtime being paid, before they distribute the remainder of the flying to the Korean crews, who are paid on a different credited system. This has resulted in all foreign captains feeling they are carrying a disproportionate burden of the workload, whilst accumulating excessive fatigue, without any proper financial reward.
And also, last year the 747-400 foreign captains, only, had 4 days leave without pay imposed upon them to assist the company. On this occasion, 4 days pay was deducted, but the majority of them still worked the maximum number of flying hours for the month. Why were the B744 captains discriminated against in this way?
At the moment there is conflict with the administrator regarding interpretation of days off entitlement. The administrator has incorrectly interpreted our English written contract and has counted the days off when foreign captains were sent home after joining KAL when their training was delayed due to insufficient trainers being available, as a debit against their future monthly days off entitlement. Foreign captains are only discovering this anomaly individually, when they check with the administrator. He has also counted as a debit against days off, the extra day a foreign captain has at home when he elects to travel to his home base a day earlier than scheduled, immediately following a long flight, in lieu of staying in the hotel for an extra day in Incheon. Foreign captains have always considered this a fair trade with the company, as the company saves money by not paying an extra day’s per diem and accommodation costs. This could easily be resolved by the administrator’s understanding of “quid pro quo” and an administrative guideline drawn up in consultation by the administrator and a foreign captain representative.

UNTAPPED RESOURCES

We as a group have come from many different airlines, including the world’s major and financially successful ones. Many individuals have held management positions with these airlines and come with a wealth of experience, not only in flying, but with operational techniques that have been proven to be safe and financially rewarding.
At times, KAL have crew link messaged us with warnings of impending problems due to high fuel price increases etc. Some of us, with the best interest of the company in mind, have contacted management to pass on operational procedures that have been successfully practiced in other airlines, which if adopted by KAL, could result in significant cost savings. To our disappointment, these suggestions have not been acknowledged. A case in point is the letter sent by Capt David Gerard to the “Fuel monitoring committee”, detailing the procedure Cathay Pacific Airlines and most other carriers use to preload fuel on long haul flights. This procedure entails preloading fuel for a long haul flight then topping up the fuel to the required amount when the final ZFW is ascertained approx 30 mins prior to take off. Because most flights have a reduction in estimated ZFW from final actual ZFW, this procedure has resulted in considerable fuel cost savings. This letter was not acknowledged.
Another case in point where money could be saved for the company is to schedule foreign captains back to their home base on a regular basis. This would save hotel and per diem expenses and would give the added advantage to the foreign captains of more family contact.
KAL is in the fortunate position where it could take advantage of the knowledge and experience that comes with the employment of us, the foreign captains, which has been determined and tested with the other airlines. There is an enormous wealth of valuable information that is not being utilised

CONCLUSION

We believe that large successful companies realise that their greatest asset is the people they employ. However, to get the most benefit from an employee, employees must be treated with respect. If the foreign captains are treated fairly, respectfully and in accordance with their contract, they will willingly assist the company beyond what is expected in times of need, such as potential strike periods. The benefits of treating us fairly will outweigh what comes from just abiding by contractual conditions.
We foreign captains, all wish to be part of a very successful company. We would very much appreciate your consideration of the above issues, so we can all work towards a safe and successful future together.

David Gerard Captain
On behalf of the KAL Foreign Captain Group

Ps: At the time of the writing of this letter, it was rumoured that the company was considering paying the bonus to foreign captains. If this is so, then it can only be construed that this is an afterthought, bought about by wanting the support of the foreign captains, due to the impending strike action by the Korean pilots, and the result of numerous complaints to management by the foreign captains that this bonus was not paid. The point still stands; it’s the principle that counts, not the money, that we were excluded from any acknowledgement.

SIGNATURES OF THOSE AVAILABLE TO SIGN DUE SCHEDULING, AND AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THE FOREIGN CAPTAIN GROUP

[411A]

The last part of the letter above, regarding the 'suggestions' about fuel management and crew scheduling, reminds me so very much of my time spent in other foreign air carriers, where know it all Captains try to tell the company how to run same.

Few today seem to realise that these airlines don't give a stuff about what you think should be done, unless you are asked personally...and even then, they really don't want to know.

I watched countless times as management turned a cold shoulder to comments from guys who had come from other large carriers (early retirement) only to try to inflict their perceived ideas on others. This was usually resented to a large extent, and sometimes resulted in early contract termination.

Some guys just don't know when to keep their opinions to themselves, and the difficulties they find themselves in usually are the result of their own making.

In short, if you work for a foreign airline, keep your trap firmly shut and fly the aeroplane.
That is what you are paid to do....period.:ooh:

[choyo]

411a,
Sometimes it's diffficult to know when the bait is being dangled......but I shall take it. Our industry is based on experience gained and experienced shared. The advice/information offered is by a highly experienced and respected Captain, (I am not talking about little Hiawatha). Most of us try to operate our aircraft as safe and as economically as possible, it is not a challenge which we feel we need to rise to but an obligation; and if we feel we haven't then we are our worst critics. I deem it to be very unprofessional not to try to pass on knowledge gained, no matter what the obstacles. It is the way which our industry progresses. I have no idea who or what you do 411a but I would challenge that it is not in our industry......and if it is I hope never to have you in my right hand seat; as there is no way that you should be in the left.........just my views......bait taken, but leaves a bad taste.

[A330 Retard]

The “Author” who was gutless enough to identify himself and signed his letter: Respectfully, Korean Air, Foreign Captains. needs to watch his back as Senior Management have carefully analyzed his letter and have read between the lines making note of dates, aircraft types mentioned and other specific comments which have narrowed down their investigations greatly.

Furthermore, this ”Author” was stupid enough to email a few management FP’s requesting that they forward his letter to the rest of the FP contingent. Why he couldn’t log on to the FP website where all the FP’s names and email addresses are listed is anyone’s guess! I attribute this to his deceitful ways and underhanded methods of operation, so very typical of individuals from his part of the world!

Should this ”Author” deny these allegations, I am more than willing to publish his emails on this very public forum and copy Senior Management! Your days are numbered Capt.DD

My compliments to Dave Gerard, Captain and the other signatories of the second letter who did have the guts to put their names to the letter and not submit it anonymously. Well done!

With due respect to the comments made by 411A, (with over 3,000 posts which leads me to believe that you’re probably unemployable) do us all a favor and keep your comments to yourself! I need say no more as choyo has said it all -

Quote

”Our industry is based on experience gained and experienced shared. The advice/information offered is by a highly experienced and respected Captain, (I am not talking about little Hiawatha). Most of us try to operate our aircraft as safe and as economically as possible, it is not a challenge which we feel we need to rise to but an obligation; and if we feel we haven't then we are our worst critics. I deem it to be very unprofessional not to try to pass on knowledge gained, no matter what the obstacles. It is the way which our industry progresses”

Unquote

The bottom line – the concerns, opinions, observations, suggestions and general contents of these letter’s have prompted a reaction from Senior Management and there could even be changes on the horizon for all the FP’s.

[Bulgogi Flyer]

“Captain DD” is adamantly denying the fact that he authored the first letter and has stated that he was merely the messenger! They shoot messengers as well! Nice try! Admin are waiting for his return from Oz on August 27 to interrogate him – good luck!

While at the OC building yesterday, Admin asked if I had received “Captain DD’s” letter by email, but unfortunately I had not or I surely would have forwarded them a copy for their records. Their file on him gets heavier and heavier! Lots of incriminating evidence!

Hope he’s got an up to date CV ready as he may be needing it sooner than he expected! As he’s now in the LHS of the 744, I don’t believe KAC will take him back in the RHS of an A600! On the subject of KAC, I wonder if “Captain DD” is aware of the fact that there’s a KAL classic captain who was actually a classic captain with KAC and this individual has no recollection of “boy wonder” being in the LHS of any KAC airplane!

His charity work won’t help him this time!

He could always move from the fire to the frying pan and join ASIANA, but his reputation precedes him!

I’m sure I speak for everyone when I say that we’re all looking forward to KAL’s actions and/or retaliations against “Captain DD”!

Anonymity and stating that he represented the Foreign Captains has alienated him from his co-workers even more.

[411A]

Sorry, choyo, but with over 30 years in command in heavy jets, I don't sit in the RHS.
And, more important, I certainly don't put up with BS from guys in the RHS either.

Expats in foreign airlines (where I have worked for those 30+ years) many times never fully understand their position...and that position is...keep your opinions to yourself, as they positively are not wanted or appreciated.

The management knows how to run the show, the airline was in business long before you arrived, and will still be around long after you've departed...however soon that might be.

Open mouth and voice opinions (or even worse, go into print) = end up like the CX 49....out on the street.

And, with your demonstrated attitude here, clearly you have learned very little up to now.

Suggest you have your CV ready...you might indeed need it sooner than you think.:p

[Frenzy]

No doubt,he'll find an airline with pay,aircraft,conditions,rostering,respect & faithfull attitude from management far superior to KE.

Then he'll be able to forget about this dishonest & unfaithfull airline once & for all :}

[Krueger]

Another clear and direct response from our beloved 411A, our CRM instructor.:E
It looks like the reason that your 30+ years of experience as an expat was simply because no one would hire you in your own country (namely American Airlines to start with). Also, the amount of your posts here in pprune could say two things: you don't have a job anymore or you have internet access in your cockpit. :}

You should send a big paycheck to pprune for using it as your shrink, releasing here all your bitter frustations.

Sorry for going off topic.

Now back on track, I hope all you guys (expats) get recognize as one of the factors to bring Korean Air back to the safe side of aviation. On the other hand, I can understand the Korean management bitterness towards expats. They had to swallow you or else. I don't know what your reaction would be if an instituction strange to the management imposed such a measure (to have a certain percentage of expats in the company), regardeless of their (expats) competence and professionalism.

One other thing, I do believe (and studied) that a good management team would listen to all. If they decide on your way it's another thing, but anyway I think if they are comited to make KAL a sucessful airline they listen to all parties, expats included.

So, give air to your aspirations. It's the only way you have to make a change. Don't sit and wait for the banana to fall on your lap.

My two cents...:ok:

[411A]

Krueger,

Clearly you have not worked for foreign airlines for any extended period, so your two cents ain't worth much.

<One other thing, I do believe (and studied) that a good management team would listen to all>

Studied?

This naive comment blows your cover straightaway.
Hmmm, clearly you have never worked for any airline in a pilot capacity, never mind a foreign carrier.

I personally survived (and prospered...tax free is good) primarily because I delivered what the airline wanted, at that particular point in time, IE, prior training experience and added capacity for route expansion.
Nothing more, nothing less.
When the contract was extended, I extended (usually), and set my own terms for doing so.

KE needs foreign crews now primarily because they (Korea) wish to retain FAA category one status.
Period. End of story.

KE management clearly does not desire this situation, but has to put up with it in the short term.
Sadly, they also have to put up with the inflated opinions of some of their foreign Captains, who clearly do not have a clue.
When that short term situation is satisfied, these guys will be gone with the wind, you can be sure.
To think otherwise is surely a high point of misunderstanding.

[Krueger]

Studied?

This naive comment blows your cover straightaway.

Err, wrong assumption. You assume (probably looking at yourself) that pilots can't have any other sort of education. However, I have been flying since I was 16. Nowadays, I am a pilot of an airline, but I don't assume that I know it all. That's why I am always trying to learn and study other subjects related or not with aviation. I believe that way I'll became a better man and a better pilot. It's amazing how you could improve yourself , as a pilot, with subjects seemingly unrelated with aviation, such as psichology, management, leadership, etc.
You should try it.

On the second part of your post, we come to agree with me about the feelings of the Korean management toward expats.

But, who says it can't be changed. The workers of a company are their biggest asset. What's worth a shining brand new fleet of B777 if you don't have the pilots or the maintenance with the quality and motivation to deliver the service required?

You tend to look at workers (pilots included) as a liability, I have a different perspective. That's all.

Still, my two cents...:ok:

[KEFLYR]

Guess what Gentlemen:

We (including the NP's) get a Safety Bonus and at a recent FOQA meeting, it was stated by the VP Safety that FOQA events have increased since January 2004 and some of the most recent events (all with NP's in the LHS) have been quite alarming!

On some events, passengers and crews have been within 15 seconds of a total hull write off!

And the NP's and Management think they can do this themselves - without FP assistance! Think Again! :confused:

[choyo]

Out of curiosity what FOQA events? I previously listed a few alarming events. They need to be aired so that the chief pilot can't sweep them under the carpet, hide them from those above him. Such as the last one did with the near hull loss in Nandi.
The more public we can make the errors, the more will have to be done; because I am sad to say that some of the incidences are truely horriffic/mindblowing.
We try and raise awareness, but it is taking time, and if our chief pilots decide not to listen; then we have no option but to make the incidents public. Because we are getting to the point where it is when and not if, when we lose another hull. I understand that the UK CAA are looking into this now too.

[411A]

<...then we have no choice than to make the incidents public.>

Hmmm, have seen this type of action in at least one carrier before, some years ago.

The subject pilot can be terminated for cause, all benefits forfeited, then hauled into court for disclosure of company information.

It would indeed seem that a few at KE have rather inflated opinions of themselves, and are extemely naive.

Now, of course, if these guys don't like the shape of things, they certainly have the option of leaving the company thru resignation.
To try to 'out' confidential company information is grounds for very expensive legal action, for the individual concerned, (the company has, more or less, a bottomless pit available in the legal department) as well as the vehicle in which that confidental information is published...example, possibly PPRuNe, if that is tried/used.

One indeed has to wonder about the thought processes of some of these malcontents.

[slam_dunk]

(Please disregard 411A's comments, the man is a pain in the ass in my opinion.)

KE guys,
Good luck with your battle !

[411A]

Slam_Dunk, being being the all-knowing, all caring individual that he is...:eek: is certainly willing to step forward and supprt these mis-guided folks in their quest for the 'truth'.

Legal fees, lost salary, lost benefits...

Slam-Dunk will support 'em in their collective and individual hour of need.:uhoh:

In can see the making of another CX49 episode, if these guys are fololish enough to divulge confidential company information.

Black-balled by agencies (background checks being what they are now...), it might indeed be difficult to pay the mortgage.

Several of us just now reading this rather obtuse forum (all expats with 25+ years overseas) are laughing our socks off at these naive folks.

Some never learn.:ugh:

[Kaptin M]

Well for the first time I can recall, I do agree with 411A :uhoh: only inasmuch as from my experience, airlines employing expats do NOT like to be offered advice on how to improve their existing ops - even IF the advice is made with good intentions, and in an honest effort to try to help.
Sad. but true.

OTOH, the guys in KE are obviously experiencing problems that are causing them concern (and with which I can similarly identify).
The root cause of many of these problems is racial discrimination on the part of the (Asian) airline(s) - discrimination which is forbidden (and legislated against) in Western civilisations, but apparently thrives in some Asian countries.
To my mind, it is a cover-up for an inferiority complex, whereby they try to promote themselves, whilst hindering the others....the sort of things children do, but eventually grow out of as they gain more confidence in themselves.

The aviation scene has changed a HELLUVA lot since your retirement a decade or so ago, 411A - management are a lot more aggressive than in your day, so many of your comments are now outdated.
The same old threats you make on almost every thread, eg "Legal fees, lost salary, lost benefits..." don't hold too much water anymore, as the pilot community is a lot more mobile than it used to be, and pilots aren't too concerned about finding other jobs if they decide to lose the current one.
Black-balled by agencies You've GOT to be joking - again that may well have been the case 10-15 or 20 years ago, during your time, 411A, however there are now so many airlines looking for pilots that if a pilot doesn't "fit in" with one employer, a contracting agency will place him with another - such is the demand.
I personally know of 3 pilots who either resigned at less than the contractually agreed period (in one case less than a week!!), or who were terminated, and whom were ALL subsequently offered employment elsewhere by the same contractor.
There are no "black lists" - perhaps just different shades of white! :cool:

So 411A, if you can't keep your nastiness out - as someone else said about you some time back, you are the trolls' troll - then zip it! :suspect:

Good Luck guys - it's just bl@@dy criminal that the contracting agencies fleece the airlines of a couple of grand per pilot, per month, and do nothing to try to RESOLVE some of these issues.

Let's also hope that KOREA (through KE) might start leading the rest of Asia - esp. that to its east, which occupied it for 35 years - in NON-discriminatory work practices. :ok:

[B737NG]

Where is the light at the end of the Tunnel?. There was another meeting Tuesday, any further development on this now? or was the dinner the target!

NG

[Ignition Override]

AsianaaV8R: Just a question from a 'colonial', who has never been to Asia.

Does South Koreans try to forget the huge human cost for their freedom and whatever prosperity, including lots of available food? Maybe it is left out of the school books.

They could easily have become part of North Korea, were it not for many thousands of "round eye/big nose" and (obviously) Korean lives in the "forgotten war". :ouch:

That spicy kinchi must have permanent side effects.

[Airbubba]

>>Does South Koreans try to forget the huge human cost for their freedom and whatever prosperity, including lots of available food? Maybe it is left out of the school books.<<

Well, there are always buses parked at the U.S. Embassy in Seoul filled with police for the daily "protests". Like much of Europe, South Korea was liberated by Americans and depends on the U.S. for defense but it is politically incorrect to acknowledge that fact locally.

There were continuous protests of American troops in Itaewon, now the locals are crying the blues because the GI's are moving out of town. You can always find a seat at the Nashville Club these days...

[KEFLYR]

FP's on the B777 and A330 whose contracts are up for renewal are not being renewed!

Were these individuals signatories to "the letters"?

Interesting!