swiss [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

Aviatrix69

15th Mar 2002, 02:16

Airline goes bancrupt - small sisters body is used to rebuild the airline around.. .. .It seems that the managment has provided the newly joining pilots from Swissair with a collective working agreement, which puts them senioritywise in front of the crossair pilots. If there will be any restructurisation in the time to come those LXpilots at the bottom of the list will be made redundant.. .If the Crossair pilots do not sign the agreement with Crossair (Swiss), they will be doomed to split off the company, be downsized and operate a regional network. . .Swiss will fly happily everafter with Swissair planes, Swissair pilots, a Board of Directors set up by the same guy who set up the BoD of Swissair. I wonder now where the 15bn debt fits in.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> . .. .swiss.... So What..It's Still Swissair

Hooking Fell

15th Mar 2002, 03:02

Welcome to Switzerland, Inc. !. .. .Did anyone really expect otherwise?

efcop

15th Mar 2002, 12:20

the creditors' lawyers will have a field day trying to find the angle so they can get a part of the billions back because looking at it from that point of view it seems more like an unfriendly takeover by swissair which would mean that it is no longer a crossair expansion but a merger. this would open the door for every kind of lawsuit.. .truly excellent start up conditions besides the fact that you will always have two pilots groups glaring at each other. but of course we are all one happy family now

Few Cloudy

15th Mar 2002, 14:17

Efcop, swissair already did own 75% of crossair shares before the debacle. They actually sold them to the banks, so a takeover it can't be.. .. .Aviatrix, the crossair pilots were offered a 10% rise, lower pensionable age and better pension. The swissair pilots were offered 30%+/_ pay cut, higher pensionable age and lower pension.. .. .The swissair pilots have shown signs of accepting this. The crossair pilots have walked out.. .. .The reason they walked out is that the A320 family pilots will earn more than the Saab/Embraer boys. For the time being, this means ex swissair pilots until some turnover occurs. In the future, however, the whole short and long range palette will be open for the crossair pilots - not as soon as they would have liked but hey! it's a darn sight better than what they have now.. .. .The management is almost entirely ex crossair.. .. .It was plain from the start that compromises have to be made. I am rather surprised to see who is prepared and who is not prepared to make them.

Shaker One

15th Mar 2002, 15:45

The issue here appears to be seniority. Due to the Aeropers seniority model which uses date of joining of both Crossair and Swissair, the bottom of the pile (approx 400 of them) will be made up of primarily Crossair crew. Those from the bankrupt company (Swissair) stand a fair chance of remaining employed therefore, if Swiss is not quite the success they hope it will be. . .. .Doesn't seem an overly fair proposal to me.. .. .----. .Shaker One

Saab 2000 Driver

15th Mar 2002, 18:16

S.W.I.S.S. = So What It´s Stil Swissair ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .It´s seniority that Crossair pilots want, NOT money, because the whole thing will probably collapse again within a few months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> . .. .Let´s face it, SR is gone after April 1st and ex-SR pilots will join a new company so it´s only logicaL that SR pilots will have to compromise on seniority. In the proposal of managment LX pilots end up at the bottom and ex-SR pilots on top. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Try and explain that to most LX pilots ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> Despite the fact that CCP is the only legal social partner for Crossair, Crossair managment has now made an (illegal ?!) deal with Aeropers, just to keep them happy for a few more weeks. . .. .We´ll see what happens next. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

FrappsZello

15th Mar 2002, 23:49

Saab Driver. .. ."...ex-SR pilots will join a new company..." So will the ex-LX pilots! SWISS is a new company made up of BOTH Swissair and Crossair pilots. The idea that Crossair was somehow taking over the bankrupt SR and that Aeropers were going to be put in their place was always wishful thinking I'm afraid. Aeropers are doing what your union should have been doing - looking after the interests of their members at long last.

ops kid

16th Mar 2002, 00:26

FrappsZello: I think you are wrong. Swiss Air Lines Ltd is not legally a new company, rather just a renaming of Crossair AG.

Swissair employees are joining Crossair/Swiss and must be prepared to realise that there are employees already at that company who don't particularly want some new people coming in - especially as these new people may well lead the existing good company down the Swissair road to bankruptcy.

Cisco Kid

16th Mar 2002, 02:02

A difficult one this,but if crossair ceased flying would anyone really notice apart from the employees? sadly it seems that the S**t that the LX "team" i.e the employees have been pumped full of by an egocentric father figure has been just that i.e crap.I´m convinced a seniority system will eventually be put in place but as it takes 12-15yrs (took) to command in SR.it´s obvious that the regional guys cannot look forward to overnight improvements. . .. .Fraps has a point,unfortunately LX management can dump on it´s pilots any time they feel like it, you have always caved in and believed the good old "one big happy family routine" sad but true.. .Stand by for removal of lots of LX middle management..very weak, and reduction ,bottom up I hope of the LX pilot corps.. .. .I´m not amused but the new Airline has to survive and it´s nothing to do with Crossair or Swissair, just economics,and please don´t swallow the "all pull together " rubbish just get the best deal you can and hope for some future,in writing of course ,in the new outfit.

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 03:30

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> "...ex-SR pilots will join a new company..." So will the ex-LX pilots! <hr /></blockquote>See ops kid answer. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> It´s just a re-branding of LX !. .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />A difficult one this,but if crossair ceased flying would anyone really notice apart from the employees? <hr /></blockquote>Try forming an alliance without a reasonable European network. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> Try filling those MD11´s and A330´s with connecting pax. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> So far LX has (alsmost) always made money in the last 10 years, can´t really say the same about SR I´m affraid. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />...you have always caved in... <hr /></blockquote>Not this time dude ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> We know it, and AP knows it too !. .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr />...just get the best deal you can and hope for some future...<hr /></blockquote>Exactly ! That´s why we want seniority and not money !

Cisco Kid

16th Mar 2002, 04:05

But you already have seniority, surely it must be obvious that the airlines will continue under their own divisions i.e no changes. One company ,divided into regional and mainline just a rebranding.After all the money was not put up by crossair! just a flag of convenience for an interim period, the LX callsign disappears at the end of the month does it not? it might not be all bad ,remember the oldest sr. captains are now only 52...no retirements for at least 5 yrs.time to command about 17 yrs,could be better to stick with the regional?. .as for connecting pax. the ex crossair numbers were negligible I´m afraid, mostly they were transported by sr. mid and short range aircraft.. .I also believe that SR. actually made money i.e the airline division,creative accounting and sharp practice hid that fact quite well.. .. .Of course I could be wrong but I fear the closest most of you will get to an ex sr. aircraft will be on a pax seat whilst dead heading.. .. .However with a more capable representation a viable merging of seniority lists and a concern pilot model should be reachable,I for one hope it can be so.Don´t turn your nose up at more money it´s a start towards parity and a useful argument at future negotiations,your increases will be more than covered by the cuts inflicted on the ex sr. crews. .the company wins again.

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 04:06

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> bottom up I hope of the LX pilot corps.. . <hr /></blockquote>Hopefully you care more for the PAX you have on board, but somehow I seriously doubt that ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> You make me sick ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

Cisco Kid

16th Mar 2002, 04:16

I meant last in, first out, thats how seniority should work,I did not not mean that I hope that junior pilots will be laid off; sorry if you misunderstood´.I admit I expressed this point rather badly.. .I do try not to make the pax sick though!you do seem to have a bit of a short fuse tonight old boy.

efcop

16th Mar 2002, 12:28

I find it hardly surprising if fuses are a tad short

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 13:31

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> I meant last in, first out...<hr /></blockquote>Well, following that logic, your ex-SR buddies should be a the bottom of the seniourity list as they will be joining LX. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

skypointer

16th Mar 2002, 13:31

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> So far LX has (alsmost) always made money in the last 10 years, can´t really say the same about SR I´m affraid. <hr /></blockquote>Some LX guys just don't seem to get it: Crossair is gone as well!!! They never made money and survived only thanks to cross financing from Swissair! And that won't happen anymore. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . . <blockquote>quote:<hr />It´s just a re-branding of LX !<hr /></blockquote>Dream on Saab Driver <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Due to the Aeropers seniority model which uses date of joining of both Crossair and Swissair, the bottom of the pile (approx 400 of them) will be made up of primarily Crossair crew <hr /></blockquote>Of course you forgot to mention that 400 SR pilots were already dimissed as the SR fleet got downsized.. .. .SR had in the first few month of 2002 over 70% of seat load factor, while LX had about 35%. So maybe the LX fleet would need some dowsizing too before joining SWISS? If LX kicks out about 400 pilots (not what I hope for) the seniority list will be evenly distributed... Would you prefer this?. .. .Let's face the facts LX pilots get a higher salary, more holidays, a better pension found, and a real carreer outlook, while SR pilots only loose. The seniority will be very fair for LX, as experience on a Saab 340 will have the same value as on a MD11. Not bad a deal. . .. .It seems to me the LX pilots are the big winners. Of course CCP does not see this quite the same way. Perhaps Mr. Häderli should start to think with his brain instead of his dick and he certainly should start representing his own members instead of only working for his megalomania to grow... CCP members would be well advised to replace some board members real soon.

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 16:16

<blockquote>quote:<hr />It seems to me the LX pilots are the big winners. <hr /></blockquote>If it´s really such a good deal for LX, why haven´t we signed it then ? If it´s really such a bad deal for SR, why DID they sign it ? In the AP/LX managment proposal, LX pilots end up at the bottom of the seniority list, and get a small pay increase while SR pilots take a large pay cut, but end up on top of the seniority list. What good is a small pay increase if : you´re at the bottom of the seniority list and you´ll be the first one out if Swiss does not fly as planned ? Trust me, it won´t fly, because it´s too big for Switzerland and the legal risks (liability for SAir Group debts) are substantial. The ex-SR pilot take a +- 30 % paycut, BUT will get back a substantial part of that if Swiss makes money on 2004/5. With other words : if it goes wrong, then LX pilots get fired and ex-SR pilots stay where they are, it it goes right then SR pilots get a pay raise for their hard work ! Who is winner here ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Of course you forgot to mention that 400 SR pilots were already dimissed as the SR fleet got downsized.. . <hr /></blockquote>Who went bankrupt again ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Mr. Häderli should start to think with his brain instead of his dick and he certainly should start representing his own members instead of only working for his megalomania to grow... <hr /></blockquote>First of all, your language is not what I expect from a professional pilot. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /> . .Second, most members want the CCP to go ahead with the present course, which was quite clear when attending the base meetings of last week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 16:24

Oh yeah, one more thing about the illegal contract between AP and LX. CCP has filled a lawsuit against the LX managment acceptance of Aeropers as an official social partner. If the CCP wins (likely), then the previous contract of AP and LX is not valid and ex-SR pilots do not have a contract after the 1st of April. If the CCP loses and the Swissair union AP is legally regareded as an official social partner of Swiss, then this might open the door for creditors of the SAir group to start suing Swiss, as this could be regarded as it´s Crossair/Swiss which appears to be doing the unfriendly taking over of Swissair, just like efcop stated on the 15th on this thread. Therefore Crossair/Swiss could be liable for the 12 billion debt of the SAir Group.. .. .Truste me, the details of the contract between AP and LX are not made public yet and on top of that a copy is not even distributed to the LX pilots nor to the only legal social partner of LX, the CCP. Guess why ? There probably is NO contract, becasue it would be illegal and very risky for the above reasons. It´s just a little lollypop to keep AP flying for a few more weeks/months. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />. . . . [ 16 March 2002, 12:52: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]

skypointer

16th Mar 2002, 17:55

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> If it´s really such a bad deal for SR, why DID they sign it ? <hr /></blockquote>AEROPERS signed it, the votation is still due - so let's wait and see.... . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> Trust me, it won´t fly, because it´s too big for Switzerland <hr /></blockquote>Well the SR longhaul network made money with every single destination since Dec 2001. If Swiss is to big, then we are talking about the former LX part that flies virtually empty! If LX were to stay alone, it would have gone bancrupt too in Nov - says the Swiss Stock Exchange Oversight Commission, not me. So you wan't to downsize LX on the cost of the former SR employees? I fear this won't work! LX would have been to big one way or the other. By the way I tell you something about burning money: LX looses in its BSL operation 10 SFr for every 100 SFr turnover. The only part that made money in the last years was the wet lease they did for SR.. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> First of all, your language is not what I expect from a professional pilot. <hr /></blockquote>Well, probably you're right, but we're not SR anymore and one adapts to the famous LX culture which CCP seems to represent.... . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> illegal contract between AP and LX <hr /></blockquote>Hey, do you really believe in this legalistic bull****? Wake up! It's Swiss law that every worker can choose his own association. SR pilots have chosen AEROPERS and so, if you wan't them to work for you - as SWISS obviously does - you have to talk with them. Simple as it is. CCP seems not to have noticed that they still have a valid contract till 2005. So it is very kind of SWISS to offer them a new one. For the former LX pilots it would be the wise thing to vote for board members that look after their needs as good as AEROPERS does for the SR pilots!. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> a copy is not even distributed to the LX pilots <hr /></blockquote>Nor was it distributed to the SR pilots so far... But then, it was CCP who walked out of the talks, so I guess they have to wait a few days longer...

Saab 2000 Driver

16th Mar 2002, 18:18

<blockquote>quote:<hr /> CCP seems not to have noticed that they still have a valid contract till 2005 <hr /></blockquote>Sure we have noticed that, and guess what !? Since ex-SR pilots will be joining LX, you guys should (legally speaking) also start working under the same contract. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> That also means at the bottom of the seniority list by the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> Swiss is nice enough to give you a second chance to a job in aviation so be gratefull. <img border="0" title="" alt="" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. . <blockquote>quote:<hr /> It's Swiss law that every worker can choose his own association. <hr /></blockquote>Remember, Swiss is [b]NOT a new company. It´s Crossair which is expanding it´s business and rebranding into Swiss. In the present (and only valid) working contract between LX and CCP it is clearly stated that CCP is the only legal social partner, also if Crossair decides to change it´s name (to Swiss maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ) or sets up daughter companies (like Swiss Regional maybe <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" /> ), even then the CCP is the only legal union and our GAV is the only valid contract. Live with it or set up your own airline ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="tongue.gif" />. . . . [ 16 March 2002, 14:25: Message edited by: Saab 2000 Driver ]

edriver

16th Mar 2002, 18:33

The Board of CCP, the Crossair pilots’ union, issued a statement on Tuesday, March 12, 2002 claiming that “ the Crossair Management and Aeropers, the Swissair pilots’ union, yesterday reached agreement on a new contract. This contravenes the regulations of the existing Collective Labour Agreement (GAV). With this we were being forced to accept this illegal document and to sign the new contract”.. .. .As you can see from this crossair info flash of March 12, even management admits that it is illegal.. .. .Existing CLA means there is no new company. So be glad that we are generous to consider the zipper model and that there are talks about a CLA.

msmolski

16th Mar 2002, 21:15

Saab 2000 Driver :. .. .I have read your profile and, judging by it, you are a new f/o, hired last year, or so. Now, try to be objective and tell me if it would be fair if YOUR seniority was higher than eg. a SR captain's with 20 yrs of line experience? Should YOU (according to the seniority) be promoted first to a higher type, or become an instructor? I don't think so. And im not saying this as a SR guy (I'm not one, nor even know any). Furthermore, I have been a fresh f/o for my company just three months ago and I was laid off. And though I wish I hadn't been laid off, I don't think it'd be fair if they have fired someone more senior instead. Neither from my company, nor from its daughter company. Just trying to think logical...

Cisco Kid

16th Mar 2002, 21:36

so there you have it what a can of worms!,seniority is a big issue but no responsible board of directors or insurance company would entertain Crossair crews being promoted almost overnight onto large aircraft it can´t be done; it can be achieved in time, and should be, but for the moment no easy solution in sight.. .. .As for the legal aspects,I feel the new company may decide upon whomever they wish as a social partner, the LX rebranding is a very tenuous argument, and remember we are in Switzerland where the law tends to bend according to who puts up the working capital not Crossair...one would face a long and exhausting court case to even hope for success in this scenario.. .. .So as before;a regional airline,sadly to be reduced as no SR capital injections anymore...and mainline the old Swissair who have already cut back sufficiently to provide a fair chance of success..it´s no use hoping for a merged list just before the s**t hits the fan,Seniority didn´t save the jobs of all the SR guys over 52 as it should have; remember ..in Switzerland the goalposts move quicker than anywhere else..the remnants of a feudal master- slave system are still in place.This CAN be worked out but it needs talent on ALL sides the negotiation skills required are largely unavailable..my advice for what it´s worth ..dig into your pockets and hire a professional from outside the country..good luck to all concerned.In the end if SR. stop flying for a day it would cost millions if crossair did the same the impact on the bottom line woul be negligable it´s all about money and aircraft size.

edriver

16th Mar 2002, 21:55

Mycontrols,. .. .I am a first year crossair FO. And I can't see the fact that because somebody is more experienced, deserves a place in front of me on the senioritylist. . .. .Your vision is that when a Cathay Pacific veteran with 24 years of experience on a 747, starts working for crossair, his place on the seniority list will be determined according his date of entry at Cathay Pacific because of his experience!!!!!. .. .Pure madness

edriver

16th Mar 2002, 22:05

Cisco,. .. .Again,. .. .ITS ALL ABOUT KEEPING MY JOB.. .. .And as far my compromise goes, I am prepared to share the risk with swissair pilots. Not solely 600 crossair pilots at the bottom of the new seniority list. Unacceptable.. .. .As far I'm concerned, they can keep their big airplanes

edriver

16th Mar 2002, 22:11

And cisco,. .. .Swissair didn't cutback. They went bankrupt.. .. .Crossair was the beacon for a second chance.

efcop

16th Mar 2002, 22:31

cisco,. .. .you seem to be rather rational about it all. i'd be interested in chatting with you over a real beer in the real world.. [email protected]

msmolski

16th Mar 2002, 22:35

No, that's different.If it were LX and Cathay Pacific, I would also consider it pure madness. No matter what the "legalities" are, SR and LX are and were closely linked together and since they're merging, a common seniority list seems to me a sensible solution. No offence LX guys, just trying to present the point of view of someone not directly involved in this conflict. Good luck to you and hope you reach an agreement satisfying BOTH sides.

Cisco Kid

17th Mar 2002, 03:47

e- driver I see your point ,but the illusion that LX took over anyone is pure propaganda,it´s a legal ploy to avoid massive debt repayment by Swissair,I´m sorry you may be under the impression that it is otherwise and I appreciate your concern.. . I hope your job is secure, but if you "follow the money" (Banks and Bund) you will notice that as mere Pilots our voices are small.Some people got out whilst the going was good,MS perhaps? But Seniority was pretty meaningless even in the old established SR. culture, a total rethink of contractual obligations from employers and employees,bankrupt or not, is necessary to achieve some form of security in this precarious profession.. .. .A small example might be the millions spent on a revamp of the Aircraft ,exterior and interior, whilst thousands of ex employees go without a penny in compensation, as a true blue capitalist I feel ashamed, something is badly wrong and must be addressed.Already the "new" capital is being pissed away.

Hunter58

17th Mar 2002, 05:13

Guys. .. .you are making me sick, alltogether!!!. .. .You just got 1 f**king BILLION Swiss Frances from MY tax money to have a fully functional airline by the end of the month, and the only thing you care about is a stupid seniority list! If that's you're only godd*mn problem, I'd change with you in a microsecond!. .. .You don't get a second chance and you have to make a full blown international airline within the next few days. So put aside the old crap and start working. Otherwise I can guarantee you that your stupid job will be your last one ever at the controls of an aircraft with HB- Immatriculation! You have an obligation towards the public in this country, so stop the bu***hit!. .. .And for any LX driver who thinks his company had piles of money: dream on!!!. .. .And now you get back to your seats and do what the public pays you to right now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="mad.gif" />

FrappsZello

17th Mar 2002, 05:17

efcop, Saab Driver and other LX fans. It does not matter whether you and CCP are correct in your thinking or not. If you decide to strike it will be back to ops normal again - a Regional airline ie you and SWISS, consisting of the rump of the old Swissair. The big money boys have decided, they WANT Swissair under the guise of SWISS, not Crossair. You are correct in saying that it was Swissair that went bankrupt, BUT, this was not due to the airline operations being unprofitable, but because of inept management and advisors, investing in basket case airlines rather than in the strengths of Swissair. Why do you think that the Swiss government was prepared to sink so much money into Swissair to keep it going through the winter and twisted so many arms to get the necessary finance in place to get SWISS up and running before Summer? To create a bigger Crossair or for a rebirth of Swissair under a new name? The events of the last few days gives you the answer! Moritz Suter who was against this plan was, together with his board, unceremonously dumped because at the end of the day the only thing that counts is profit. A strike by the Swissair pilots is a bigger threat to profits than one from Crossair pilots.. .. .Regarding seniority. There is never an easy solution to this dilema, just ask any pilot who has been through a takeover or merger in the past. CCP and Dose have always maintained that any new company will be an enlargement of Crossair and therefore the Swissair pilots will be "joining" at the bottom. Aeropers were never likely to accept that and if they are any kind of union (debatable) they should not either. Crossair did not pay one rappen for Swissair they were given it by friendly bankers - gratis. Aeropers and it appears Mr Bouw and company regard SWISS as a new company made up of Swissair and Crossair, with each group flying their own equipment in the future. With this in mind the solution is fair. Hard on you perhaps but perhaps you were too optimistic in the first place.. .. .This whole sorry affair over the past 6 months has been handled appallingly by all concerned from management to banks to BOTH Unions. It is a pity that Aeropers and CCP could not have united and got a satisfactory solution for all concerned instead of taking cheap shots and trying to marginalize each other at every opportunity.

gofer

17th Mar 2002, 06:28

FZ U brought it up - what's Moritz doing now ?. .. .He's not the kind of guy to not do something... My guess is watch this space and where he's flying.. .. .Personal opinion the CCP/LX guys are less wrong, but its one of those 'reality strikes' situations as Hunter says - do what the PAX want - and with a smile - and don't rock the boat or their schedules - coz this time there definately won't be double dipping at Hunter's or my tax money - sorry kids.. .. .PS. Yes Swiss needs the feeder PAX, but don't forget current type ratings also - if U drive an S2K never mind seniority, when push comes to shove, out will be the lowest in seniority in the S2K club - U can't just move a 330/340 or an MD11 driver across whatever rules Berne is willing to invent or bend (not saying that perhaps an MD11 (or 330/340) guy (gal) can't learn fast, just that there would be holes that can't immediately be legally and acceptably filled overnight - and the visibility of not flying - would be just too much to keep the new shop alive).. .. .All that says I guess is that the MS9/80 drivers are those really at risk - lose rather than cross train !! Sure, but that has been clearly on the cards since October and day 1 of 26/26 in all the realists minds - the risk there I would have thought is that more leave than are needed to operate - if they are being street smart and looking after No.1 first.. .--------------------------------------------------------. .just an opinion - but watch out - the vultures are circling!

Saab 2000 Driver

17th Mar 2002, 13:01

Frappszello is absolutely right, it's Swissair under the guise of Swiss. Seperate uniforms, seperate contracts. Just a new paint job. A dangerous legal cocktail. Wait until the creditors will find out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> . .. .By the way, everybody always talks about the ex-SR people taking a pay cut, but it's not a pay cut ! Let me quote Mr Kurt Renggli, Head of Human Resources : "In addition to which the Aeropers leadership agreed to a 2 year salary reduction, in form of a „start up bonus“ for the new airline to help to reduce their deficit. " In other words, it's just a temporary measure, so do the ex-SR people really lose so much ?

rock_the_tower

17th Mar 2002, 13:17

May be we can learn from other cases.. .When PanAm got busted, some of them were taken by Delta as far as I know. How was the integration, merger, takeover or whatever there ?. .And how did the former TWA-pilots fit into the American team ? What about Hawaiian and Aloha ?. .Anybody knows something ? (to be honest, I haven't yet screened the pprune-forums concerning this question).. .. .Just curious to learn from others. We would just lose so much energy and time if we would reinvent the wheel again...... .. .Cheers. .. .rtt

FrappsZello

17th Mar 2002, 23:07

rtt. You cannot apply what happened to PanAm to this fiasco. Normally, when a company goes bankrupt thats it. The a/c get sold and the pilots are out on the street looking for work. Any work forthcoming means starting at the bottom of the seniority list. With SWISS however it is different. The bankrupt company (Swissair) was kept going while finance was obtained and legal proceedures found to avoid the new company being liable for debts. On start-up day all the hardware and resources of Swissair are simply transferred across together with Crossair's to form SWISS. All the flights are flying to the same destinations as the day before with the same crews operating them, being briefed by the same ops crews, getting their mail from the same mailbox as the day before with the only difference the callsign! Working out the seniority - a nightmare! How can you justify telling an MD11 Captain of 30 years service he now has to be below the most junior FO in Crossair?

edriver

18th Mar 2002, 00:50

That's why we proposed the zipper system frapzello. And what do we have to swallow,. .. .a PROBATION PERIOD for all Crossair pilots for three months with one week notice.. .. .With this kind of proposals, I'd rather go down with a fight then give in for the sake of public opinion. Sorry Hunter.

Aviatrix69

18th Mar 2002, 02:09

Have been away a few days enjoying myself on my offdays... get away from it all as well. Havn't thought this thread to be still on when I come back.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .I'd just like to say how I experience it. I do not say it's the truth, but I think in a way there are as many truths as individuals.. .. .I am a junior F/O with LX, on one of the planes likely to desappear quite soon. I have been to the infomeetings by CCP and have heard with astonishement, how those guys have been dropping their weapons, bringing in good ideas and tremendous efforts to achieve a solution. Telling the AP, that we all would fight for their cause, accept a lower salary if only we could find one single contract, i.e. senioritylist for all. Coldbloodedly we have been turned down, being told that the day, when we would all work under the same contract will never dawn.. .. .I cannot accept to take all the risk and blame and lose my job, as I am employed under a valid CLA by a company which was healthy. Now all that's left is a carcasse, with transplants from a zombieSR, a management under severe pressure from the VR making too high concessions to AP at a time they should not have had, and a flight ops chief threatened by heart-problems. Voultures soaring.... .Worst case about it: they propose us a deal so rotten we cannot do anything else but turn it down, but in public there's only talk about the positive sides, and misunderstandings. And in the end it's us who is to blame. Clever strategy.. .. .As it has been said before, I cannot do anything but fight and talk and walk with determined steps, because I believe in certain universal things as justice, trust and fairness. For my personal integrity it is vital not to give in, as I would crumble if I had to. If I'm being forced to do so by my management or anybody else I have trusted and supported, I would have to walk away. I feel very sad, I can understand the political pressure and all, but I despise the circumstances making people take decisions against their inner knowledge of decency and karma.. .. .I have known lots of the SR F/O's dismissed. It's been very tough on them. But they have been able to blame mismanagement, and the collective hatred of the swiss people has supported them.. .For us now, it is our own collegues, people some of us should be capable one day to work together on a flight deck who dig our grave. Even worse, they give us the shovel, put a gun against our head and tell us to dig.. .. .So go and shoot me. I won't dig

Hunter58

18th Mar 2002, 03:03

Well. .. .you have another 10 days to work it out! And then eithe the company works, or all of you have no jobs and cannot go out of your appartment of house without some mob throwing rotten eggs at you!. .. .You have received ONE BILLION in tax money, so you don't have any rights anymore. Sorry pals, but that IS reality! You have only one thing to do: make it happen!. .. .This has nothing to do with fairness or anything else. It was decided that the company exists, and therefore it has to. About the rest, nobody cares, so unless you want to find yourself in a nightmare, accept it and work diplomatically.. .. .It's time CCP learns how to proceed form Aeropers! Because the show given right now is not to the public's gusto, and so you have no possible way of not loosing any fight at this time. You simply cannot win in short time.

Cisco Kid

18th Mar 2002, 03:08

All very sad but perhaps the perceived health of LX was closely tied to the cross financing and wet lease deals offered by SR....who knows..but the death of the old SR will certainly have an effect on the condition of LX.lay offs are an unfortunate fact in our often poorly managed industry ,in this case one could say criminally mismanaged,remember to spare a thought for all captains above 52 who lost their jobs as well,talk about losing experience and know how,..another brilliant decision for which other airlines are very grateful,mostly competitors of SR.. .. .I wish, as has been said, a solution could have been created years ago,with an integrated system allowing opportunities for all to move between regional and mainline(for want of a better word)this was not supported by LX management nor by AP.. .it will prove to be a costly mistake.Personal greed and shortsightedness have let us all down.

FrappsZello

18th Mar 2002, 03:21

Hey Goddess, I hope you will be able to find some inner strength to continue. Believe me it is not only you LX pilots who are not happy with the way things have turned out. I do think however that you are 100% correct in blaming all on Aeropers. I think your CCP president has a lot to answer for. The letter he sent to Aeropers last October inviting the Swissair pilots to join CCP - at the BOTTOM! was at best stupid and at worst insulting. This has been the stance of CCP ever since. To try and get an advantage out of the demise of Swissair to the cost of the pilots of Swissair. You can hardly expect them to welcome a proposal to work to gether at the 11th hour with open arms. Your board only approached Aeropers once they realized that their stance on seniority was getting nowhere. Now the boot is on the other foot and unless there is a very big change from the new management, I do not think that even a strike will get you anywhere. In fact I think it will only be to the advantage of Aeropers. They hold the better cards and have played the hand better too.. .Aeropers are not blameless. At times they have behaved pathetically and have been insulting in the extreme, but at the end of the day, they are doing everything they can to look after the best interests of their pilots. This after all is what they were voted in to do. I do not think that all the Swissair pilots are too happy with the new proposals but I do not think they are going to be stupid enough to shoot themselves in the foot and lose the inititive that has been given to them by CCP.

Cisco Kid

18th Mar 2002, 03:22

Hunter everyone has rights whether they received 1 billion in tax payers money or whatever,huge subsidies paid to farmers do not deprive them of their rights. Switzerland needs an Airline 1 billion would seem like small change if the industry collapsed ,in fact it may turn out to be a wise investment.. .. .But I agree it has to be sorted out and the boulevard press and tv would do better to stay out of a scenario about which they know very little...LX are now the bad guys for 20 years SR. was the bogey man.Some positive reporting would make a pleasant change.. .What I would really like to know is why aren´t the previous directors of SR. and their advisors answering questions in court?..see Enron in the US..lots of people with lots to hide, the press should enjoy that..but are strangely silent..curiouser and curiouser.

FrappsZello

18th Mar 2002, 04:14

Good question Cisco. The only people who appear in court in CH are those that blow the whistle on their corrupt bosses! Dear me. Could'nt possibly ask Mr Big to account why he allowed Brugisser to invest in all those basket cases now could we? Unfortunately these selfsame institutions are still involved in the running of the new Airline of Switzerland. It was after all the banks who came up with the idea of Crossair taking over from the bankrupt Swissair (UBS boss perhaps a bit too close to Moritz?) and then finding themselves ousted from the influencing role by Mr Really Big, who got rid of all the old LX board, replacing them with one who would re-create Swissair! Now the Crossair pilots are mad because they have been shafted recently. The Swissair pilots are mad because they have been shafted period and all they are doing now is pointing fingers of blame at each other, getting more hot under the collar and becoming more intolerant than ever! Because the two unions could not grow up and work together for ALL the pilots, the line pilots doing their normal good job are going to pay for it because at the end of the day nothing has changed except for the name and the fact that over 300 of their fellow pilots are out of work and if they are not careful there will be many more! It's time to start working together. If the unions can't/won't, then it is time to get some new blood in on their respective boards who can.

rock_the_tower

18th Mar 2002, 05:20

The entire story has kind of an ancient touch like "Beware of greeks bringing gifts".. .I have the impression that for most of the former CRX-pilots, the "new" CLA with its presently known parameters is somehow like a trojan horse.. .However, the draft version of the "new" CLA has not yet been distributed to CCP and subsequently to the CRX-pilots. Let us really first get the printed hard facts and a clear mind before we might do the wrong thing.. .Nevertheless, I personally would expect a common risk sharing approach between AP and CCP for possible future layoffs (which also would affect myself as a junior F/O). Both unions start in one new company, so the risk sharing should also be distributed.. .. .Let's face it: all big airlines around us are just waiting to see us fail. It's a big war out there and we should finally focus to do an efficient,excellent and safe job together to boost SWISS into the big player league.. .. .Cheers and happy landings. .. .rtt