Jetstar - Hamilton Island

[M100]

Jetstar - Hamilton island.

Anybody know anything about a reported near-miss between a Jetstar flight and another aircraft in the Hamilton Island circuit this weekend?

[Bevan666]

Nein news in melbourne reported it to be a Qantas aircraft... The story was all about 'terrified passengers fearing for their lives' and no facts at all.

Bevan..

[blueloo]

Ch9 Syd, reported the plane took off, turned and "dipped" with pax on the inboard side only able to see water, whilst pax on other side saw QF plane coming at them. All pax terrified and everyone pooed their pants. The non-normal checklist poo on seats was carried out and a/c landed safely.

[126.7]

Reports say that the Pilots did not inform their pax of the events. This was told by a very calm and non-hysterical pax. Is this common practice so as to not admit any legal liabilities?

If this occurrence is true then isn't it now, not about any particular airline trying to stop NAS, and not NAS itself, but the way in which this change has occured. I beg all aviators, be you Airline, Charter, GA, Private, whoever you are and for whoever you work for, fly safely and smartly. We as a community are right in the spotlight and the media are ready to pounce on anything. Not to mention your life and those around you are more important than NAS, so if you see anything that remotely has a negative impact on your life have it changed. I am still working on the how part!

To the guys flying that this has happened to I am sincerely glad you are both alive and hope your respective airlines do not use you, but rather see the truth.

[airsupport]

The TV News in Brisbane tonight said that it was 2 Jetstar Aircraft, one in the new colours and one still in the old (Qantas) colours.

Yes, the passengers on the News made it sound very dramatic, however even allowing for their over stating of it, it would appear that we will hear more about it.

They said that the ATSB has demanded reports from both Crews and the relevant ATC in the next 72 hours.

[ditzyboy]

There are no JQ aircraft in QF colours. I believe it was a QF 737. Also if pax were 'terrified' as the news says then it is funny as they mentioned nothing to the cabin crew...

[airsupport]

Well there you go.

What is it they say, believe nothing you hear, and only half of what you see on TV. ;)

[Uncommon Sense]

If it was only two RPT aircraft involved I don't think NAS would be a contributing factor.

[This time ]

[sinala1]

Hey Ditzy

Agreed mate... "terrified" pax have a habit of making themselves known rather quickly!!!

More media crap, I often wonder what they would report on if they did not have aviation incidents to dramatize

[Capt Fathom]

Let me have a stab at it.
The aircraft departs from RWY 14. Turns left to intercept the outbound radial. Levels off at 1500' to provide separation with the inbound aircraft.
I guess if you're an expert back seat driver and used to climbing on runway heading to 33000 feet, I suppose it must have been a terrifying event!!
All this is mere speculation on my part. But can be made to fit in with the hysterical reports.

[ditzyboy]

nine.msn.com.au reports:

"...cabin crew have been asked to provide reports..." Ha ha! I can see it now. "Well, I was brewing the coffee when all of a sudden..." Me thinks the Tech Crew would provide a more appropriate report in this instance.

The more the media report the more they discredit themselves! :hmm:

[Keg]

Departed MEL one day on a 34 Dosel with Ansett on a 27 Narel. Just as we levelled at 5000' and turned for Dosel, they were 1000' above turning onto downwind. End result, two aircraft with 1000' vertical seperation that looked for all intents and purposes to be wing tip to wing tip. We too were levelling off so they would have got that 'sinking' feeling in the pits of the stomachs, ( :rolleyes: ) and it did look 'close'.

Whilst it may be something, it may not be anything more than a case of a passenger greatly over reacting. Wouldn't be the first, won't be the last!

The media are morons.

[TheStormyPetrel]

I have received this from a friend who is close to the action in this case, but cannot identify himself. He has asked me to post it here. That is my only connection with the event.

Stormy

As usual the speculators are out early with their uninformed guesses.

Fact 1. This incident had NOTHING to do with NAS.

Fact 2. This WAS a serious incident.

Fact 3. It did involve a QF B737 and a Jetstar 717.

Fact 4. Those who have made up their minds who is at fault based on their own prejudices may end up looking very silly, and they may find it wise to avoid further speculation till the investigation is complete.

[TIMMEEEE]

Quite often when in a holding pattern with as little as 1000ft vertical separation, things look alot closer than they actually are.

For this reason when holding I always attempt to make a PA to the pax informing them that we are holding, and that there are other aircraft holding at the same time.
I also mention that there is at least 1000ft separation just to let them know because in years gone by pax get off aircraft talking of "close mid air collisions" etc.

Its not their fault.
Similarly when departing from say runway 34R Sydney on the MARUB departure we advise the pax that we will be levelling out at a low altitude and there will be quite a large reduction in thrust.

Pedantic - maybe, but the punters should be made aware of anything that just may perceived the wrong way.

As for QF and Jetstar we dont know the facts so it would be both unprofessional and premature to speculate until the facts have been made public and investigated by the respective authorities and companies.

Otherwise, its the standard media circus with no facts and lots of hysteria.

[VH-Cheer Up]

On that "thrust reduction" note, BA used to really, really emphasise it on the Concorde because it was so marked - not just the noise drop, which approached silence, but because all the acceleration would suddenly disappear pretty much leaving passenger's "tummies" behind. In their case it was both a noise abatement and speed control issue once the aircraft got airborne and cleaned up.

You really start to wonder whether there ought to be an IQ test for the SLF. After takeoff from 34R at YSSY I've often heard pax muttering religious and other sometimes obscene references when they peer down the wingtip at some Mascot family crowded round their 26 inch telly. They seem to think the aircraft out to be flying S&L the whole way home. I've never been able to quite tell what's on anyone's dinner plates from 600 feet up, but the window seat occupiers often make that claim.

Look forward to the official view on what this one was all about, but it sounds like one big media windup.

[Capt Fathom]

We are our own worst enemy. Some like to keep passengers informed (by PA) to a nauseating degree. Every heading and altitude change is announced, along with the reason. Passengers are getting accustomed to all this BS, and when it doesn't happen, they jump up and down.
About time we got back to flying the aeroplane, the FA's looking after the passengers, and the passengers sitting back and enjoying the ride...without complaint thankyou. :uhoh:

[Wirraway]

ABC News

Jetstar defends pilots over 'near miss'

Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce says the pilots involved in an alleged near miss "did the right thing".

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) has asked for reports from Jetstar and its parent company Qantas into the incident on the weekend.

Passengers have told the media that a Jetstar pilot was forced to change direction suddenly soon after take-off from Hamilton Island in north Queensland on Saturday to avoid a nearby Qantas plane.

They said the Qantas aircraft was heading straight for the Jetstar plane.

Mr Joyce said the planes were under the direction of the Hamilton Island air control tower.

"The Jetstar aircraft was taking off, Qantas aircraft was coming in to land...the pilots...did the right thing to maintain separation at all times," he said.

"It's now under review by the ATSB, we've given all the data information to them and they're having a look at the incident...there'll be more information when that review is completed."

Michael Sharpe from Qantas says the company is cooperating fully with the ATSB.

"We'll be supplying all of the information which includes tapes, and I've heard they've got video," he said.

"They might even have video footage from the tower.

"All that information will be looked at and if there's anything that requires investigation, you can be sure because it's an independent body, the Air Transport Safety Bureau will investigate it."

Air safety investigators have refused to comment on the alleged incident until they receive reports from the airlines involved.

The ATSB has also asked Air Services Australia (ASA) for a full report.

ATSB spokesman Alan Stray says it will wait to hear from cabin crew and the ASA before deciding whether an investigation is warranted.

Qantas and Jetstar have 72 hours from the time of the incident to file their reports.

=========================================

[Wirraway]

ABC (Trancript)

The World Today - Monday, 19 July , 2004 12:22:00
Reporter: Petria Wallace

Close shave for Qantas planes

ELEANOR HALL: To Queensland now, where Qantas and its budget carrier Jetstar are in damage control mode today, after claims from some passengers that the airlines flew too close to each other during flights over Hamilton Island on the weekend.

A short time ago Jetstar's CEO defended the airline, saying its plane had "maintained appropriate separation" from the Qantas aircraft.

Jetstar has also rejected criticisms from the Transport Workers Union that it's running its cut-price service as a sweatshop, with ground staff working shifts of up to 19 hours at a time.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau has confirmed it has asked Air Service Australia and both of the airlines involved, for a written report on the alleged safety incident, as Petria Wallace reports from Brisbane.

PETRIA WALLACE: It's an airline's public relations nightmare. Passengers on the Jetstar flight which left Hamilton Island on Saturday afternoon walked off the flight home, recounting stories of what they believe was a near-miss accident.

The returning holidaymakers say they felt the aircraft bank sharply shortly after take off. Some said they saw a Qantas plane close by as the Jetstar aircraft changed direction.

VOX POP 1: They saw a Qantas airplane coming straight towards our plane.

VOX POP 2: Very scary experience to think what could have happened.

PETRIA WALLACE: A short time ago Jetstar Chief Executive Officer Alan Joyce told the media that the pilot had taken appropriate action during take-off, and that the aircraft was under the control of Hamilton air traffic control at all times.

ALAN JOYCE: Communication on the aircraft was left up to the pilot at the time to tell the passengers exactly what had happened, but they maintained appropriate separation at all times.

PETRIA WALLACE: Under repeated questioning Alan Joyce did admit the Jetstar pilots had been forced to change direction as the plane ascended.

ALAN JOYCE: They took appropriate action which involved a change in course to maintain separation.

JOURNALIST: So they had to take evasive action?

ALAN JOYCE: That's part of the review of the ATSB, and they'll cover what's entailed in that…

JOURNALIST: If they hadn't that action would they have hit?

ALAN JOYCE: As I say at this part of the review by the ATSB, I think we can't comment on it any further, 'cause they're doing the investigation and they're getting more information.

PETRIA WALLACE: Qantas has also hit the airwaves this morning to point out it's keen to cooperate with any investigation.

Michael Sharpe is the company's Public Relations Manager.

MICHAEL SHARPE: There have been reports that Jetstar, the Jetstar aircraft turned I think to the left, but as to the reasons why that happened, or exactly what did happen, that's exactly what details will be gathered and provided so that the Transport Safety Bureau can draw a conclusion and decide whether or not to investigate the matter.

PETRIA WALLACE: The aviation safety watchdog – the Australian Transport Safety Bureau – has requested further information from both airlines, but says it has insufficient evidence at this stage to regard the flight as a safety incident. The Bureau's expected to make an announcement about its inquiries later today.

Jetstar has also come under fire over the weekend from the Transport Workers Union for operating under what it claims are sweatshop conditions. The union says the budget airline employs a third of the ground workers used by other major airlines.

An allegation Jetstar's Alan Joyce denies.

ALAN JOYCE: There's a lot of misleading information on it. The number of people that we employ to turn around an aircraft is proportionally higher than some of our competition because our aircraft are smaller.

So there's a lot of misleading information and we're happy with what the (inaudible) company are doing, they are safe, they are applying good conditions and we don't think there's any issues there.

ELEANOR HALL: Jetstar's CEO Alan Joyce ending that report from Petria Wallace.

===========================================

[Capt Claret]

Wunala

What on earth are you taking?

From what is publicly known of this incident, how han you say?They're probably shouting at the Jetstar Pilots right now as we're talking. Jetstar would try to cover up the Pilots in public to keep do their best to keep their image shiny but I really do think that they're angry at the pilots.


:uhoh:

[Sultanas and Gin]

One wonders what the "standard media circus" would print or say, if they knew that both aircraft probably had TCAS turned off due normal cabin noise abatement, and the Jetstars AFAP crew were simply shocked to find someone else in their air. What have Civilair got to say about all this? Their silence is deafening.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

I think we should follow Stormy's mates advice and wait until the ATSB has their say.

Even as a PPL and SLF, somatographic illusion from a fast accelerating jet makes things decidedly hard to determine what is actualy going on up front. 30 degrees of bank shows a lot of grass or sky from 15C and as Keg put it even 1000ft of vertical separation looks like your coming in the windows. Dont ask me I only payed for the ride. Frame of ref for even a seasoned travellor can be very subjective.......gotta luv jorno licence to BS:rolleyes: Even the irishman got hijacked in the interview. A turn to clear traffic suddenly becomes an evasive manoeuvre.



THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE

[VH-Cheer Up]

I know we aren't supposed to be speculating here, but seeing as the thread exists, but assuming a hypothetical, similar case on a desert island with one controlled runway, where an aircraft is taking off and another is on approach for the same runway... assuming the aircraft taking off actually was cleared to take off, one might think ATC must have thought the separation sufficient to give the landing aircraft clearance to complete its approach and land.

If it was that close isn't the aircraft behind supposed to initiate the evasive action, i.e. GA? And would not someone in the tower be asking why the controller permitted the approach to continue without recommending a particular course of action to one or both pilots?

On the other hand, if an aircraft was to enter the active runway without clearance to take off, and with another aircraft on short final, one supposes the pilot attampting to take-off might feel a little embarrassed.

Or is one missing something?

[Binoculars]

Yes, one is missing something, in fact the lot of you are. Something called facts.

Honest to God there is more bull**** on this thread than there is in the media beatups. They're trying to make a living; what's your excuse? I know exactly what was in the incident report, nothing more, as does every controller in Australia who wants to search the system, but it's enough to know that you should all keep your conspiracy theories under your respective hats.

Wunala, take your scanner and go back to FS2004 for chrissakes. You're talking through your arse.

[Disco Stu]

Go Bino's

Ill informed speculation is the specialty of the press, not supposably professional aviation people.

Additionally, 14 year old high school students are yet to qualify to that level and are still restricted to the "be seen and not heard" end of the dining table.

Disco Stu

[kym]

Hey wunala,

opps, I mean Winston(aka Wunala)

where have you been?? we at PPrune have missed your dribble lately under your real name.

:) ;) :p :ok: :E :uhoh: :\:yuk:

[GoGirl]

How'd he know that?

Could THIS POST (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=137929) have given you away :confused:



Wunala
I've only made a few posts so I don't feel the need to order a Personal Title and help support PPRuNe
posted 17th July 2004 10:59
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quote:
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Sounds like you are a private pilot who thinks he/she knows best.
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G'day,

Whoever you're talking to, here's my reply for myself or whoever you're talking to. ACMS, it sounds you're someone who thinks you're a professional pilot or something. You have no right to talk about someone when you don't even know them. Yes oh boy I've heard of VNAV, I've even heard of LNAV. Vertical Navigation for descent, auto approach, etc. Lateral Navigation for turning, straight and level flight and of course following the waypoints you've entered into the FMC. Not only you know ok? I'm sure many others here know AND no I'm not an airline pilot. Haven't event started my lessons yet, still in high school Please don't be so up yourself.

Cheers,

Wunala



Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged


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Posts: 48 | From: Sydney | Registered: Jul 2004 | Status: Offline | IP: Logged


(My Bold....for clarification ;) )

Gee, this boards' come a long way :hmm:


GG

[Wirraway]

Wunula sent me a PM today and can confirm that he is only
14, and hopes to become a Qantas cadet when he finishes
school.

Wunala, your an accident going somewhere to happen, you
must realise you are still wet behind the ears, I noticed in
your profile that you use MS flight simulator, I'm afraid young
man IMHO you need much more than this before you can
start telling the pro's here how to suck eggs.

Wirraway

[Disco Stu]

Wunala

There is nothing wrong with quietly reading and learning from what is written here. That said you must admit you will be challenged to sort the good info from the rubbish.

Good luck with the pursuit of an aviation career and don't be put off by those with a negative disposition. Aviation is still the best game in town.

Disco Stu:ok:

[pullock]

To the SMH crappy paper - AIRPLANE is american AEROPLANE is AUSTRALIAN.

GO GET AN EDUCATION.

[Binoculars]

Well said Stu,

Wunala, you appear to have learned a lesson and accepted it in good grace. I commend you for that. You are a novice to Pprune and to aviation, but you have enthusiasm which is to be encouraged.

Just remember there are a lot of hard heads on these forums who have been around the game for a long time in one form or another. Roam the threads, learn from their experience, and take particular notice of those who are rubbished and why. Your aim should be to post only when you know something about the subject.

There's plenty around here who take no notice of that, and no doubt somebody will come up with some examples where I've been guilty :hmm: but there is an awful lot of good advice and experience to take in too. Make the most of it, ask questions rather than offer advice. Most grizzled oldies don't take advice too well from 14 year olds.

Good luck. :ok:

[Wirraway]

Tues "The Australian"


Island air incident a 'misunderstanding'
By Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
July 20, 2004

AIR safety investigators are looking at whether a procedural misunderstanding resulted in a Jetstar Boeing 717 taking evasive action that alarmed passengers over Hamilton Island on Saturday.

The Australian Transport Safety Bureau yesterday ordered a category four investigation into the event, its second lowest for probing aviation incidents.

The lower category indicates investigators do not believe the aircraft were in imminent danger of colliding, and Qantas has also rejected suggestions of a "near miss".

"Reports to hand from both crews and air traffic control indicate there may have been some misunderstandings regarding procedures," the ATSB said yesterday.

Jetstar Flight 711, with 124 passengers on board, banked sharply after taking off from Hamilton Island's runway 14 for Sydney about 4.20pm and confronted a Qantas Boeing 737 on approach to the same runway. The Qantas crew reported it could see the Jetstar plane and was aware of its altitude and track. Qantas said the B717 crew had also spotted the 737.

"Both planes were in visual contact and there was no danger to any passengers," the airline said.

It is understood the Jetstar crew elected to take evasive action after receiving a traffic advisory from the B717's traffic collision avoidance system.

A traffic advisory warns of traffic in the area but is not as serious as a resolution advisory, which tells crew a collision is imminent and recommends what action to take.

Passengers said the Jetstar aircraft banked left after taking off steeply and started to descend as the Qantas aircraft passed close by.

The B717 crew later told the ATSB it considered the avoiding action was warranted and Jetstar chief executive Alan Joyce yesterday defended the action. He said the aircraft had been under the directions of Hamilton Island tower and had maintained separation at all times.

========================================

[Weapons_Hot]

Well, at least the media got somethng right - TA vs RA and its response prioritization.

Perhaps the media ought to use the phrase "judicious maneouvring in response to a TA". Sure beats the incorrect phrase (with respect to a TA) "EVASIVE ACTION".

A scenic departure off RWY 14 HTI - the punters should be grateful ;). So long as they didn't get to see Pentacost Island's peak from below.

[QSK?]

Binos:

What a classic! You always were the master of the perfect one-liner at the right time.

Cheers QSK?

[Capt Claret]

Wunala

As yet it has not been established that the two aircraft "almost hit". It seems that you are convicting one crew based solely on the rumours on PPRuNe and some media reports.

If they were my crew, I'd investigate and then take appropriate action, not shout at them, not get angry, not cover up. All of those responses are inappropriate.

Unless one or both crew were behaving in a wilfully negligent manner, it is reasonable to assume that at worst, a mistake was made. The perfect pilot has yet to be born.

Sultanas and Gin,

I don't follow the "turned off for normal cabin noise abatement".

Would you please elaborate?

[Sultanas and Gin]

Capt Claret;

I don't think so.

[Knockout]

If this had happened between two GA operations CASA would have suspended both operations without the chance for them to prove their side!!

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Knockout, you are an idi.... oh wait, I can't say that now.

Knockout, I disagree with your statement.

[Chapi]

A foundation of NAS is "see and avoid".

Maybe this incident is not directly related to NAS .... but ...

isn't it interesting to note that despite one aircraft having established and confirmed visual contact with the traffic and being assigned visual separation responsibility, the situation still evolved to a point where one aircraft needed to take avoiding action!

[Cactus Jack]

Now, I'm aware that I don't know all of the facts here, one rarely does. But why on earth were the guys maneouvring on the basis of a TA? :eek: I do hope the J* Ops Manuals state that any evasive action is to be on the basis of a RA, not a TA.

[air-hag]

Binos are you considering returning to therapy? you still sound a bit wound up. you gotta sort those issues out mate. being set off by a 14yo :rolleyes: ...

you're still skidding around with a few empties in your 6-pack.