A question for IR flying instructors re. holding

[Push and Park]

Just a quick question for IR Flying Instructors about holding. A parallel entry into the holding pattern is defined as a turn onto an outbound heading to fly parallel to the inbound track for a period of 1 minute. My question is this, if you are approaching the beacon and are right on the boundary between a parallel and a direct join and elect to do a paralled join, a turn onto an outbound heading is over 90 degrees. Therefore does the one minute timing start when you are established on the outbound heading, or when you are over the beacon and start the turn onto the outbound heading?
Also just as a side issue, is there anything wrong, when doing an Offset entry, to use the VOR to make good a track of 30 degrees offset rather than just relying on an approximate wind correction?
Thanks for your help.

[Tinstaafl]

1. Timing starts over the aid for the parallel entry

2. Use the VOR (or NDB if that's the navaid for the hold) to make good the 30 deg offset. All sectors that originate or terminate at the navaid are tracks ie if navigational guidance is available from the relevent aid you're expected to use it. Those that don't are headings (adjusted for known or estimated wind effect) eg outbound in the hold.

[NineEighteen]

I'm an IR student, not an IR instructor but I've been taught that timing for a sector 1 (parallel) entry begins once wings level and on the outbound heading; and that sector 2 (offset) timing begins overhead the beacon.

0918

[High Wing Drifter]

Interesting! I was taugh...for my IMC...the same as Tinstaafl: Basically time-turn-talk for Sector 1.

[Wrong Stuff]

I was taught that the official way to do it is to time from over or abeam the fix. However, it makes it easier to get onto the inbound track if you've got some extra space to do it, so timing from wings level is the way to do it provided you're not going to go anywhere near the edge of the protected area. IIRC the holds are designed for a max of 170 kts for A/B aircraft, so most training aircraft stay well within.

[nosehair]

To Push and Park. I am an Instructor, so let me answer your question with a few bits of information and questions which will make you think logically and conclude your own answer.

You note that the turn to the outbound heading is greater than 90 degrees. 90 degrees will take at least a half-minute. The turn could be as much as 160 degrees which would be only about 6-7 seconds short of the one minute outbound time. So, if you started the time over the fix, before turning outbound, in some cases, you would barely have rolled out and it would be time to start turning inbound. And in some cases, you wouldn't even be "abeam". I teach to start the outbound timing when "abeam", or wings level if unable to determine "abeam".
What is the point in timing? Are you doing it because someone said to, or do you have a logical reason to do so?

The object is to get yourself outbound to a point where you can turn inbound with one minute to fly back to the station.

[Pilot Pete]

I just follow the pink string! (sorry, couldn't resist!):p

But failing that I use nosehair's description, which is not only very logical, but works a treat.

Regards

PP

[40 yearflyer]

PANOPS says start the timing when first passing over the facility--- or words to that effect.
However, PANOPS also says make sensible adjustments to headings and timings to achieve the inbound track.
So, if a big turn passing over the facility means you have not made much progress away from the facility then starting the timing wings level is sensible.
All this was laid down when few, if any, of these holds had DME.
PANOPS fails to acknowledge DME but any sensible pilot would turn at 2.2 DME (or more in certain circumstances). And say 'I am increasing my timing' without mentioning why !