Chris Darke to be re-elected!!! Vote

[Hot Wings]

BALPA CCs only have until 1 April 2002 to nominate candidates to oppose Chris "Mugabe" Darke in his quest to be re-elected as the BALPA General Secretary. If there are no other candidates he will be automatically re-elected.. .(I think he was hoping to sneak this past the membership whilst we were all busy trying to stay employed after 11 Sep). . .. .It really is time for him to receive the order of the boot. He has enjoyed double-digit pay rises over the last few years (in 2000 he earned £119,707) and has focused entirely on increasing membership numbers whilst achieving very little for existing members. The BA CC has withdrawn their support for Chris Darke and it appears that Capt. John Frohnsdorff is willing to stand against him on a "return BALPA to its members" platform. Good luck John!!!. .. .Chris Darke - you are the weakest link! Goodbye!. . . . <small>[ 14 March 2002, 13:25: Message edited by: Hot Wings ]</small>

[max_cont]

What you mean Hot Wings, is return BALPA to BA control. Sorry old boy, BA may have been king once, but those days have gone.

[exeng]

Max_cont,. .. .I don't believe that Hot Wings was trying to say anything of the sort. In my view he was just trying to point out to the BALPA membership that CD was up for re-election. . .. .If any company council wishes to prevent an automatic re-election of CD, then now is the time to nominate another candidate. The more candidates the better to ensure a more democratic process.. .. .Regards. .Exeng

[A Very Civil Pilot]

First I've heard there was an election! Perhaps my subscription doesn't cover postage.

[Hot Wings]

max_cont - the point that I am trying to make is that Chris Darke is about to be re-elected, whilst the majority of BALPA members don't even realise that an election is taking place. The BA CC has informed its members but other CCs have not because, I can only assume, they prefer things to continue the way they are. It is up to you to suggest suitable candidates to your CC and for your CC to nominate them! Try not to be blinkered by your anti-BA attitude (and don't forget that there are many pilots at BA who have previously worked for other airlines).. .. .Previous postings, about Chris Darke, have indicated that many people are very unhappy about BALPAs leadership and direction, so why should there be a rushed re-election process, when what we need is some open debate and some viable alternatives?

[max_cont]

Hot Wings, I’m not anti BA. I have been fortunate enough to have been in the position to choose the company I now work for, from several offers of employment including BA. All this was some time ago and while it is true I have at times wondered if I made the correct choice, I have no doubts now. Of course this could change tomorrow and I may still regret not seeking shelter under the BA canopy. . .. .I have never worked for BA, but I have friends who do and they appear unwilling to accept that times have changed. I accept that I speak from very limited knowledge but it appears to me to be a common trait among the pilots I know. BA is still the flag carrier and in my opinion rightly so. But now it does not have the luxury of having un-competitive practises supported by the UK taxpayer. That does not mean that my colleagues and I would not jump at the chance to have similar agreements with our company. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .BALPA can only become more affective through an increased membership base. I have been very critical of CD both to his face and to CC members. Competition for his position can only be good, but I would prefer us to concentrate our efforts fighting for our collective good. Taking our eyes off the ball, while we fight amongst ourselves during an election process imposed on us by legislation introduced by an anti union government, helps no one, as was the intention.. .. .Regards max.

[Notso Fantastic]

Hot Wings, well done for pointing this out. How sad that such serious discussion items inevitable attract such juvenile idiotic and irrelevant postings as Max Cont with his "I don´t know anything about this, but I want to get an anti BA posting in!". Well done John F- there will be a lot of support for change!

[invinoveritas]

If you ask me ole "Darke Forces" should really get the heave ho, and bring BALPA back under some sort of pilot control. John is a bloody good bloke who whilst working for the lot on the other side of 27L is not in the union just for BA, and all members would benefit his election. mind you i am not sure exactly how the election process works in this case, i think it is quite arcane. if anyone has any info?

[bullshot]

I hope that Capt John Frohnsdorf applies... and gets elected. He would almost certainly be more effective than cd.. .Compared to the late Mark Young CD has been a massive disappointment - he must go.

[M.Mouse]

I am sure all will become clear but I believe John Frohnsdorff is standing with a view to unseating CD ie a 'stalking horse'.. .. .A manifesto will be published shortly but to summarise the situation JF is standing on a 'Hand back BALPA to the members' platform and the aim is to find & appoint a highly qualified professional.. .. .I believe I am correct in saying that JF will not take a penny piece as General Secretary and will stand down immediately his and his supporters aims have been met.. .. .It is vitally important that all BALPA members take an interest in what is and has been happening. BA members, incidentally, comprise less than 50% of total BALPA membership.. .. .If anybody cares to do some digging they will find that the internal management of BALPA has been a disgrace. The financial control or lack of is a case in point. And has anybody else noticed how the Legal committee has been recently reorganised......at last?. .. .IF CD was running an airline the employees would have been baying for his blood long ago.. .. .The evidence is there if one cares to look.. .. .I expect better for my money.

[Pontius]

John represents all that I would expect from the BALPA Gen Sec. He's a clear thinking, sensible bloke with his heart and mind in the right place. Yes, he may be a BA Capt but that doesn't make him small minded enough to only believe there is one airline in the UK (as certain individuals here are wont to suggest). He's already hot on the financial heals of certain people at Bath Road and I know he would prove a much better man for the job.. .. .He'd certainly get my vote and hopefully his photograph in the front of The Log would be much more pleasing to the eye than Mister-Staring-Wonderingly-At-The-Sky-Darke.. .. .So what has Chris done? Well here's a list:. .. .Told us how many members we've got and had a word with Blair's lot, achieving nothing in the process.. .. .Good riddance to bad rubbish I say.. .. .Chocolates aweigh,. .. .Pontius

[tired]

I don't work for BA, but I will certainly support anyone who opposes Chris Darke. I do not think my BALPA subs give me value for money, and the place to start any sort of overhaul of any company is generally at the top.

[Bamboid]

For the second time in a decade CD's direct intervention has made me redundant. My BALPA membership will soon be no more, I am however prepared to stay in long enough to cast my vote against this self-serving slime-ball.

[timsan]

As an industry we have suffered greatly over the past six months. Airline managent have used Sept 11th to their advantage to reduce the pilot workforce and bargin for lower terms and conditions. In my company we have lost the longhaul B scale without so much as a decent fight. The "agreement for service" which has been fought for by so many, for many years is under threat. We have seen many co workers forced to take COMPULSARY REDUNDANCY. . .BALPA must be the only union to accept redundancys with such ease. CD has increased membership numbers over the past few years, so the loss of 40 or so members contributing their 1% does not really show up on the balance sheet. . .The loss of just ONE members job through compulsary redundancy should be grounds for Chris Darke to go.

[Fat Tony]

Bring it on John.... .You have my vote.. .. .Fat Tony

[thegirth]

Quite right to get rid of CD, when we get a replacement let's make sure his Benefit Package is proportionate (this does not mean equal to, just X a factor tbd) to average member's salary and that any rises are based upon rises to the average members salary and not in proportion to increase in membership.

[Bigpants]

I agree with the previous post it is time the slippery Mr Darke was "retired". I am sure JF would make a good gen sec but whoever replaces CD must have a remuneration package that reflects the average gains of the membership. EG not 10% plus year on year increases!. .Regards BP

[tired]

thegirth & BigPants - exactly, well said. I don't see why the negotiator should get increases year after year that are 10 times what he negotiates for his constituents.

[E cam]

Do all members have a chance to vote, or what?

[Boss Raptor]

Get a life!. .. .Darke is a brain dead waste of space...check out his salary package...

[IMMELMAN]

I don't see where you get the idea this issue is not known about. .Please read the latest 'Airwaves'. .Nomination is until 01 April - how auspicious. .Nominations considered 05 March - now that does seem odd - 05 April would make more sense. .Announcement of nominations - 02 April - there does seem to be a 'cock-up' on dates here. .If election necessary - 22 April-17 June - that seems fair enough. .It says if you have any queries, contact Gillian Pole - so, if you have a problem - do what it says. .I was with BA for 19 years and, to be frank, it did seem that BALPA was owned by BA. .I think BA are about the last employer you have to worry about - the real 'nasty bastards' have been at it for years - BA is only just learning. .The man for the job should be just that - it makes no difference who he works for but I do suggest that a BA person may well not be fully au fait with what a real, nasty employer gets up to - unless, of course, he has non-BA experience. .On numbers, I guess BA still is the lion's share but the rest are growing!. .Strange to say, the job we are talking about does not have to be a pilot, or ex-pilot - we would like him to be but please consider just about any business you can think of - including politics - are the leaders/directors/MPs., etc people from that industry? Very, very rarely - it can often be 'the wood from the trees' scenario. I have often protested about such people 'not knowing the job/what they are talking about', etc but, I have to admit, they are not doing that job - they are running a business/enterprise/whatever - that usually calls for totally different skills - hard to admit, but it's true. .However, no reason why a BA Captain couldn't do it, and do it well - equally, no reason why he/she should be BA, either - also, no reason why they need to be a pilot at all. .If you are concerned, then take an active role - '.... or get off the pot' comes to mind. .The personal bit is not really that clever - we all form views about people we don't know - how often that perspective changes if we take the trouble to get to know them - see what I mean?. .If your views are that strong - get along to your council and put yourself forward for nomination. .You can tell I've just got back from the pub but, even so,there is a democratic process - use it!. .Talk of Mugabe, etc.,really is a little OTT - we are all supposed to understand CRM, etc - I don't think views expressed in such a way would give me much confidence in a tight corner - it's pub talk, isn't it?. .Talk to anybody who has had an individual dispute and see if BALPA membership helped them. My guess is, yes!. .Don't put that at risk, please - the dynamics of large-scale situations we now face are a very different kettle of fish.There will always be losers and winners in this sort of scenario but, overall, BALPA has looked after us over the years - I do not detect any deterioration in representation - but a good, steady progress over time against all the factors that have had to be dealt with. .OK - enough from me - just my views - but if you reall want to help and really have grievances, then get stuck in - I'm sure you would be welcomed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Hot Wings]

Immelman - you may feel that BALPA has looked after you but there are many members who are angry about the lack of leadership from the top of BALPA, the constant deterioration in Ts+Cs and the financial state of our union. Your attitude of not wanting to "rock the boat" misses the point that, as members, we are entitled to a say in how our union is run. CRM does not involve sitting quietly in the corner doing what you're told (well, that depends upon one's vintage!). . .. .Also, BALPA members do not have to hold office to voice an opinion but we can communicate our opinions to our reps and that is why the BA CC have withdrawn their support for Chris Darke. Our voices have been heard but I am not convinced that this is occuring at other airlines.. .. .Ideally, there should be a choice of candidates for the post of Gen Sec and the members should have the opportunity to study election manifestos and vote accordingly. The re-election of Chris Darke because of a lack of opponents would be a travesty.

[Stampe]

I believe its only a very small part of the BA constituency that is opposing Chris Darke I,m afraid we won,t be seeing the likes BOAC again and getting at the general secretary will not change the market forces acting upon our industry.My own company council yesterday enthusiastically proposed Chris Darke for re-election.The last few years have seen great successes for our CC. in improving the lot of our members,this has in some ways been facilitated by Chris and he has been addressing areas of the Association that clearly need reform.You may be working for a part of the industry which whilst still an excellent airline is in decline as are many other airlines.Chris Darke is not the cause of your uncertain future and subsequent disapointment.BALPA now envelops most of the industry with for the first time ever the BA membership in the minority,here lies the future!!.

[IMMELMAN]

Hot Wings - I am not disputing what you say, I am saying if things are not right and you feel strongly enough, do something about it. Other airlines' pilots also see Airwaves so they do know about the election. I also do not like un-opposed returns to office but if nobody comes forward, what does CD do? Jump ship? Not very realistice is it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> On CRM actually, the old style used to be to hurl abuse at the other poor sod - I am suggesting that these days one does speak up but tends to avoid 'slime-ball'and similar terms of endearment( not that you said that ) - well, hardly ever, anyway.Terms and Conditions have to be negotiated - not demanded and they also have to match market conditions. BA has, unfortunately, taken too long to grasp that - Micawber, and all that - and if you, like I, believe that Sep 11th was used as a smoke-screen by airlines, in the same way as certain government officials who got sacked for it, you will agree that BA discovered, just like others, that this was their opportunity to try to get the numbers to add up again.The low-cost jobbies won't survive long-term - remember Laker and all that - but by god they do some damage to the 'stayers' in the meantime. So, to survive - to keep our jobs, we do need to be flexible - BA want to survive, so do we - that's why strikes don't happen much these days - confrontation does nobody any good. Weakness, perceived, in our leadership may not be exactly what it appears - it may also be wisdom. However, a democratic organisation gets what it deserves - so it's up to us to try to get the right people to represent us - but don't imagine that a table-thumper will do the trick - we need a diplomat, above all, who can negotiate and reach mutually acceptable compromises - if you get any agreement that is not a compromise, it will surely be short-lived. .Well, how sad am I to spend all this time? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" />

[Hand Solo]

So we need a diplomat and not a table thumper? Well it was certainly diplomatic of CD to endorse and accept BA pilots last pay deal without going to the inconvenience of asking them about it. CD may well be doing fine things in other companies, but in BA the past few years have seen nothing but erosion in the T&Cs of flight crew. This has nothing to do with the lack of profitability as every other department, and particularly the more militant one that we fly with, have seen very real and significant gains over that period. In BA the spoils go to the noisiest, not the most professional or productive or indispensable. CD has been given his chance by BA pilots and he's delivered nothing. We all understand that BA aren't the majority in BALPA anymore, but we are the biggest minority by a long chalk. That means we expect to have our concerns addressed. Although we now represent only 40% of the membership I suspect we contribute a significantly higher proportion of the membership fees, and if we're bankrolling BALPA so they can improve conditions across the industry as a whole then we expect to see some payback for ourselves, otherwise we might as well just leave and form our own union.

[Hot Wings]

Stampe - hypothetically, if all the BA members left BALPA, what sort of future would the union have? And how much would the Gen Sec get paid?. .. .Immelman - "weakness...may also be wisdom", you're not a spin doctor for Stephen Byers are you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> . .. .I am not surprised at these typically British attempts to pull everyone down to the lowest common denominator. We are in a global market place. What is wrong with learning from ALPA and AAPA and aiming for the Ts+Cs that our colleagues across the pond enjoy? We should aim high and not at our own feet! Anyway, I suppose it was worse during the Blitz. Still, musn't grumble. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

[BOAC]

The manifesto for the SINGLE opposer will be out shortly. This is NOT a 'BA' thing. It is about a lot of things that affect all pilots, including the alleged perilous state of BALPA's finances.. .. .When you have a chance to read the proposal, calmly and rationally, and see what the man is offering to do for BALPA = you, I think many of you will see that it has a lot of merit. . .. .The thing that is annoying a lot of people now is the 'rubber-stamping' of a solitary applicant, whether or not he has been good/bad/indifferent etc etc. Democracy does have a place.. .. .Give the opposer a fair chance, for everyone's benefit. At least then it will have been a competition and not a 'fait accompli'.

[knows]

Quote from above "In BA the spoils go to the noisiest, not the most professional or productive or indispensable. CD has been given his chance by BA pilots and he's delivered nothing" . .-- I just love this! It's 100% true!

[Brae_Cwynd]

Clearly, a number of the previous posts are from non BALPA members. Otherwise, they would have received a letter outlining the election timetable. To suggest that this election was somehow to be secret is ludicrous.

At the last BALPA Annual Delegate Conference ( BALPA at its most democratic ), a motion critical of Chris Darke was put to the assembly. Just about every delegate spoke and 99% spoke in favour of Chris Darke. The vote was overwhelmingly in favour of Chris Darke and he received a standing ovation at the end. Only one person voted against - John Frohnsdorff.

John who? many of you will ask. A BA longhaul pilot due to retire from BA later this year and who lives in France in order to hide from the UK taxman.

By all means let there be an election as that is what democracy demands. However, Chris Darke has the overwhelming support of the ADC delegates and that needs recognition in a democracy as well.

[Boeingman]

Just to keep the record straight, John abstained in the vote. There were none against.

[M.Mouse]

Brae-Cuynd was this the same ADC motion which was fleetingly mentioned in the ADC lose leaf report that informed us all that further details would be available on the BALPA website?

Eventually when somebody on the BA BALPA Compuserve forum asked when these details would be published it transpires that it was felt 'least said soonest mended' and nothing was in fact ever reported.

Funny that for my 1% I cannot find out exactly happened at the ADC. If CD is so overwhemingly supported then why not actually publicly say so?

BA representatives have in the past 12 months or so vastly improved there communication with BA members and it was long overdue. The representation over several (and two very notable issues in particular) was a disgrace. From my observations a shake up of the whole manner in which BALPA is managed is long overdue. If CD is re-elected all well and good. But whatever the outcome it will be a loud wakeup call.

Whether CD is re-elected or not there is, rightly or wrongly, a large number of people dissatisfied with CD and, more to the point, his leadership of BALPA.

For the sake of factual accuracy two people abstained at the ADC John Frohnsdorff and Richard Mawby.

Finally, I fail to see what relevance John Frohnsdorff's legitimate right to live where he chooses or the fact he is about to retire has. It was a brave decision to stand as a 'stalking horse' in order to give voice to a large body of opinion far from satisfied with BALPA's golf club style of management.

You may disagree with what is happening but how about leaving personalities out of the debate?

[airrage]

BALPA FEAR and the General Secretary Elections

The main reason for this lengthy post is to vent my feelings on the coming GS elections(or recent elections depending on publication), to reassure non-BA BALPA members the nomination of John Frohnsdorff (a BA BALPA rep nominated with overwhelming BACC support)for General Secretary(GS) is not a BA pilots conspiracy to put one of their own in place at the top of BALPA and highlight some of the reasons why an election is vital to all of our futures as UK pilots. It is important to mention that the following is not meant to in anyway to reflect negatively on the hard work and daily achievements of our local council BALPA reps who do a tremendous job with little thanks, but rather to examine the effectiveness of the higher echelons of our union.

For those still reading.......

A lot of debate has been stirred up recently on the Internet pilot bulletin boards with regard General Secretary Elections. Most pilots will have probably not have even taken noticed of the surreptitiously coded BALPA letter that arrived through the mail outlining that the GS position actually was up for re-election(a 5-year event)and the deadline rapidly approaching should anyone dare want to nominate anyone else other than the incumbent Chris Darke. The letter started off by admitting that it had originally been sent out by e-mail and was only sending it out via regular post begrudgingly at the insistence of some members who thankfully understood the importance that 100% member notification of elections are a necessary pre-requisite in any democratic process(even Mugabe realised this point). It then proceeded to apologise to those who had received the message already via e-mail, not to those like myself who had not received it in the first place, implying that this notification letter was all just an unnecessary waste of resources. The letter then named the BALPA Rules with regard nominating a GS candidate(Rule 28, 24 Appendix 1)which I suppose one could look up in their BALPA Association Rulebook(sent at time of joining-which I'm sure most pilots have kept...NOT) rather than detailing in the letter itself(which of course would have been yet another unnecessary burden). And if a reader was still not put off of the idea of having a GS election by this point, the letter outlined the timetable to be followed; only 5weeks from the notification letters date to nominate a candidate(it could take some of us this long to find that rulebook outlining how to do that in the first place)along with various other hurdle dates and the occasional comment such as, "Announce nominations or result if only one candidate" "If an election is required to run between these dates".

The tone of the afore mentioned letter and recent postings on the Internet(unverified) of comments made by the Chairman and Vicechairman that they "FEAR" a GS election could break apart BALPA as a result of non-BA BALPA members withdrawing their support if a BA council nominated GS candidate should be elected, have led me to believe that BALPA do not in reality want to hold such elections as they may have to face up to the fact that a large number of it's members are in fact dissatisfied with it's recent track record and an election could in fact be the spark that ignites a desired total BALPA shake-up of it's existing management. As for the Chairman and Vice-Chairman's comments about this possibly breaking apart the union, I think it sounds like we need to hold elections for their positions as soon as possible as well.

Why some in BA might be miffed by BALPA's recent track record and if our experience is anything to go by, why other non-BA members should take note?
My own history is as a cadet trained BA pilot graduated 91. Laid off on graduation due the Gulf war for 4years(which I luckily spent flying elsewhere). I re-joined BA in Apr95 as a 737co-pilot at EOG(on their BALPA agreed terms and conditions which were much less than those cadets who joined straight in to BA in 91). After a few months in, BALPA agreed to the BA BEP initiative which was backdated to the 1stApr95(18days prior to my joining BA). This basically reduced my pay for my first 6years(i.e. year 3 was now 20K instead of 30K). Some have put this BEP earnings loss at a figure ranging anywhere from 50-70K of over the first 7years. It also introduced new entrant pay scales in BA. Those affected in BA by these reduced BEP wages now total a third of the BA workforce.

Everyone here needs to realise that it has been weak leadership in BALPA and nothing else that has been the cause of us losing every pay deal/conditions in recent history. Recently BALPA failed us even when they had 95% ballot support for strike. It was their "FEAR" then that the support might collapse should the pay deal be drawn out, and this might subsequently cause BALPA to collapse(sound familiar) that caused them to fall at the first hurdle. Is this protecting our 95%voted interests or the union for the unions sake? What about leadership? It was their job to maintain the support not weigh it up personally. At that time, if they had done their job and reassured those concerned pilots calling in that a strong front remained instead of worrying about how it might affect the union, it would have been BA that would have collapsed. I imagine it was only a worried minority that called the BALPA office and the vast majority sitting at home quietly awaiting strike action if necessary were only informed there was problems after it had all been called off. Is it too much to ask that BALPA lead strongly from the front once we have made our wishes known(95% !!!!!!!). They shouldn't be leaking stories of "FEAR" out to the troops but the exact opposite. If they are too conservative and fearful to take a stand and lead from the front then they shouldn't have run as a BALPA rep in the first place. We don't want or need people like this at the head of our union. It doesn't mean they have to be pig-headed but they do need a little fibre(much lacking recently)and charisma to lead the troops when needed, especially if it's in the best interests of the members to do so, of course there will occasionally be risks associated. You don't get anywhere in life without sticking your neck out once in a while.

Why is BALPA the only union BA are not scared to confront. Look at the recent "Transport for F.Engineers redundancy" debacle....our union buckles and the transport drivers just turn around and say NO.(I am not going to debate the virtues of either approach, just to state how ineffective our union can be to others). You can name any other union in BA and management are scared of them and don't even ask a second time if the first response is NO! CC...loaders...drivers....cargo...etc. Pilots....no problem, we are already working legal Max hrs/year, paid 40% less than N.American colleagues(ignoring cost of living differences) and they still try to squeeze us for more when some BA divisions(remain nameless)use work to rule to secure overtime, get paid even when they don't show up(often up to 40% of the workforce absent)and BA well aware of this fail to stop it. No, instead just ask the pilot's to give up something else. Give me a break, wake up everyone.

It is BALPA's job to carry out the members wishes, which might include having something as trivial to them as a G.S.election. If the union actually faces breaking up over something this trivial, if I was a BALPA rep I would be quickly working behind scenes to reassure local council reps so as to prevent any divisions before anyone else found out how weak we really are. I certainly wouldn't be trying to rally members by "FEAR" to prevent a democratic process. If you elect another GS candidate or don't vote for Chris Darke, non-BA BALPA members will resign and the union might collapse financially. Sounds like we need a whole raft of elections to lance this festering boil. We need to weed out these "FEARFUL" BALPA reps no matter how good they are in other areas. If they aren't strong enough to rally us when the going gets tough but instead mutter about how worried they are, then they should do themselves and us a favour and step down.

Continued PART 2..............

[airrage]

PART2........

Yes but is the General Secretary to Blame ?
Many people have stated that one cannot blame Chris Darke(CD) personally for the degradation of UK Pilots pay and conditions over the past 10years(the fact that degradation has occurred is generally not in any doubt) and why should we need to elect someone else. I agree it is not desired or credible to try to appropriate blame to any one individual in BALPA to our degrading T&C's, but as established in the role of GS, surely he is the person "ultimately responsible". The only thing possibly questionable is how he has managed to secure a 45% pay rise between 96-00 whilst the pilots T&C's he is enrolled to protect continue to lose ground whilst increasing productivity. Blame for blames sake is not constructive, but weeding out weakness is. With the coincidental timing of the G.S.'s re-election it is wholly appropriate to examine the past 10years of his leadership and examine whether we are happy with his results or whether other suitable candidates should be considered.

Why a GS Election is not a BA BALPA Member plot and ways to avoid division.
Many non-BA members will question the fact that the only other candidate for GS(JF) comes from within the BA fold(despite his only goal is to remain in office only until such time as a suitable replacement can be found). It is important to state categorically that BA members are not trying to put a BA minded individual at the head of BALPA. Many companies recently brought into BALPA will be happy with the progress to date of having BALPA recognised in their firm(aided by recent changes to UK union law)and will have many unpleasant fresh memories of not having a union. However it is important in the upcoming election process to set aside pre-conceived notions of BA pilots and realise it just might not be a case of "spoilt BA pilots expessing sour grapes" but in fact be rooted in the extended time and history that we have experienced under present BALPA leadership. The elections will affect us all over the next 5years.

There is no reason for the GS election to cause a split as some scare mongers will have you believe and it this is the very type of BALPA Conservatism that has thwarted all our recent pay negotiations and is the root of the problem. This is the reason things must change if we ever expect an improvement to our current situation.

Saying that, there are ways to avoid the mistrust by non-BA members of BA members intentions:
In the run-up to the GS elections, JF could name a professional head-hunter organisation which he agrees to hire immediately on his election to provide BALPA with 2-3 possible candidates for the GS position, final selection to be decided by balloting ALL BALPA members. After this one and only act, JF will then immediately stand down and an interim board consisting of ALL local council reps will act as Gen Sec should any action be required. Professional Head-hunters would have an extensive list of major players and extremely qualified candidates to put forth immediately and the balloting of BALPA members to chose between them could happen with a week of JF's election. Using a professional head-hunter org.would remove any justified suspicions from Non-BA members and conspiracy theorists as to any GS appointments as well as provide us with the best people on the market.

The election does not have to be divisive, the question is, is an election/change necessary at the top of BALPA.......unless you're satisfied with the last 10years the answer is YES. Don't try to read too much into what might or most likely not happen after we have decided an election is necessary, especially from scare mongers. If a simple election can break apart BALPA(stunned that anyone within BALPA org would even profess to this) then we should be asking how we have let it get into this shape in the first place and what can be done to strengthen it NOW. The time of Conservative insecure inaction needs to be put solidly behind us. We have muttered under our breaths for long enough.

At the end of the day we donate 1% of our career earnings to BALPA to carry out the wishes of it's members, if BALPA is unable to deliver on the wishes of the majority of it's members(i.e. 95%)then what good is it really and why am I donating my 1%? We don't keep the union running just because we need a union, we keep the union running because it supposed to be effective. If it ceases to be effective then we seriously need to consider alternatives. Legal coverage and insurance we can get elsewhere at a fraction of the cost, strong collective bargaining and leadership is what the extra we pay is supposed to cover.

As for the idea that having a General Secretary election might cause angst amongst BA and non-BA Balpa members, and that division could break apart BALPA(given the success of recent recruitment of non-BA members becoming a much large part of our union), I would like to know if this is in fact the case, what the purpose of focusing on increasing BALPA membership over the past few years if it has in fact weakened our collective bargaining position. So that we could have a bigger union, and our union leaders could have more street cred down at the pub and help propel them into greater positions when they eventually leave BALPA? So we could stuff our coffers to afford more staff to admin the greater number of members, even though we are now less effective? To collect more revenue to cover up BALPA's poor Financial Situation? These are serious questions we should all consider. What strategy was there for increasing membership if our union leaders now tell us we risk breaking it apart by having a simple election for the top position in our union, whilst still officially following a policy of increasing membership?

The whole point of this letter is to ask whether we exist to support the union or whether the union exists to support us. Lets not let BALPA become a living breathing monster that requires massive attention to survive yet fails on it's purpose for being. The union as an organisation cannot be allowed to become more important than the purpose for what it was set up in the first place.

I'll pre-empt the..."but we are BALPA, and it is up to us". Yes this is very true, and this is why we have elected people to represent our wishes, not to make deals or compromises without our consultation. My point being that recently those representing us have not shown the leadership or direction some of us have hoped for(at least not in securing the pay we all feel we deserve). This reinforces the need for new leadership from the top down and in doing so, perhaps a new guiding principle of operations for BALPA, a guiding Principle based on strong leadership for securing it's members desires through collective bargaining. We are BALPA, BALPA is us. 95% of pilots in BALPA voted for either a pay rise or we would go on strike a few years back. If we are indeed BALPA then why did a strike not occur when the pay rise didn't appear. Unless the remaining 5% were in fact our reps.

If BALPA is up to us afterall, then let the elections decide

If BALPA as an entity has become more important than it's members desires and proves ineffective in delivering on those desires then I for one will be looking elsewhere for effective support and leadership in the very near future(TGWU?), and the recent UK union recognition laws(50%+ employee vote equals mandatory union recognition by the firm)so helpful in aiding BALPA's growth over the past couple of years, could possibly prove just as effective in it's subsequent downsizing.

I for one do not want to read the moaning on pprune 5years from now about how could things have gotten so bad, especially from those who fail to objectively review the alternatives available without a preconceived bias.

Good Luck, and remember it's All of our futures(not prejudices)that is at stake !!!!!!

[next in line]

Airrage,

The decision on whether BA pilots will go on strike is taken by the BA cc reps after consultation with the line community, not by CD or the NEC (although it IS the NEC which gives the 'authority' - never refused).

You will almost certainly have the opportunity to go on strike this year as BA are adamant that the work currently being done by pilots on the Master seniority list is to be transferred to its subsidiary - BACE.

Your reps are adamant that the work must remain and so a punch up is inevitable since BA believes that BA pilots are a collection of windbags - good at complaining but reluctant to take action. We will all have a chance to stand up and be counted and you can count on me, despite having only a few years to go.

If this transfer of work is accpetable to the line comunity, then it can hardly objct when the EOG work is transferred in a few years time followed by the transfer some years later of the LHR SH work, etc.........

JF has many talents but attending meetings until they finish is not one of them - he is always sloping off early from cc meetings; goes with living abroad I presume.

[airrage]

Next in Line;

Not trying to pick apart your post just want my viewpoint to be clear.

You say..
"The decision on whether BA pilots will go on strike is taken by the BA cc reps after consultation with the line community, not by CD or the NEC (although it IS the NEC which gives the 'authority' - never refused). "

Does not a 95% strike vote count as clear consultation with our BA cc reps? Why was this not carried out as it surely was the will of the majority ? Nowhere in my post did I ever blame CD or the NEC directly, but the need for a change of BALPA's present fearful corporate culture is clearly apparent(unless you are pleased with the last 10years of degrading T&C's, hardly a reason for overwhelming support of present management). That change starts at the top-down since at the bottom of the rung(the local reps)do seem to be effective in covering the smaller local issues.

You also say;
"You will almost certainly have the opportunity to go on strike this year .."
That is not the end goal for which I protest. If it becomes inevitable to attain what is righfully ours then so be it, but I do not want to be counted as someone who rallies the group for a senseless strike. Change is necessary and I am willing to take things to their end-game(which is almost certainly not necessary as BA management as a selling point in Institutional briefings admit that they have a pilot workforce sub-mkt rate.) What I want is equality of standards with our peers(peers meaning the major International carriers). By attaining equality (40% less than N.American)this will also have a knock-on beneficial effect to other pilot groups pay within the UK.

JF's choice of residence is not my concern. Aside from not actually running to stay in the GS office(but only to find a suitable alternative), the fact that he has the financial intellect to save 1000's on taxes whilst probably improving his standard of living, only supports my belief that he is the kind of shrewd individual that we need at the moment. Whether he follows like a sheep to the slaughterhouse of the inland revenue or choses individually to protect his wealth is not of my concern, though as a capitalist rather than a communist, I can't help but respect his choice.

[airrage]

Looks like theres a few dissatisfied BALPA members on this board, the Poll is not going so well for CD.

[next in line]

Airrage,

We agree in that the rates of pay for BA pilots should move closer to those of BA's competitors, preferably US competitors and not Aerolineas Argentinas, also a competitor!

If I could just comment on one part of your message:

<<That change starts at the top-down since at the bottom of the rung(the local reps)do seem to be effective in covering the smaller local issues. >>

The bottom rung is not the local reps but the general members, ie, you and your chums. The 'top' - at least in the BA section - is the BACC. This body has to be absolutely CERTAIN that the BA piot community will go on strike if necessary before calling for a strike.

95% voting 'yes' is a huge number but the reps have to be absolutely sure that 95% will not turn up for work before embarking on action. Anyway, if I recall correctly, most of the objectives from the last ballot were met, including the introduction of FHR into EOG, about £10k extra for a 737 captain. No doubt you will find some items which were not introduced to your irritation but going on strike for the missing items needs 92% to feel the same way as you do!

Because I believe that the election of JF will cause harm to the professional standing of our Association - a General Secretary who knows b all about running a Union, and who doesn't stay for meetings - I regret that I will not be voting for him; in fact, I will vote for CD instead!

[BlueUpGood]

So sad to see that pure emotional rhetoric may scupper the chances of an improvement in the future. Can I point out the following.

I am with BA.

It is NOT as those on the outside percieve it.

I am actively seeking to LEAVE BA as many are doing / have done.

John Frohnsdorff is standing to oppose Darke simply to get him removed. He is proposing to hold office if elected for as long as it takes to hold another election to find a lasting replacement.

He does not wish to take ANY of the salary associated with the post.

He is giving up his valued and hard earned pending retirement to make things better for YOU.

Until another candidate is prepared to stand, I strongly urge you and all our colleagues to support him, or put up another viable candidate.

PLEASE see past you prejudice and deal in fact.

[airrage]

next in line.....

Where you comment about the bottom rung being us and not the local reps I think I pre-empted your comments in my previous post. I refer you to my previous post(don't want to reprint it again) in particular the paragraph beginning;
" I'll pre-empt the..."but we are BALPA, and it is up to us".

you say..... "95% voting 'yes' is a huge number but the reps have to be absolutely sure that 95% will not turn up for work before embarking on action. "
So what are you proposing, that once BALPA has recieved our strike ballot results(95%) they should then carry out another ballot asking how many guys are really serious about their first vote. And then they can then run a third ballot asking how serious we where on the second ballot, etc, etc. This is what my post(Part 1+2)is on about when I talk about leadership. It is not up to BALPA to make personal assessments about what they think might or might not happen(the FEAR factor to which I refer)but once they have received our mandate(95% or less)it is their job to MAKE IT HAPPEN! No wonder BA are never worried about a pilot's strike if our union is scared to act on such a majority vote. What would have happened if we would have had 100% in support, would BALPA have to still go away and wonder if we really mean it, and worry that some might fold early. If they are worried that a few might cave in then they should be rallying the troops and reassuring the weakest links, not telling us how scared they are that the strike or BALPA might collapse. If the union collapses it is because it fails to deliver the wishes of it's members, if it cannot deliver on it's members wishes then why are we giving 1% of our money away? So CD can drive a nice car? The union must be effective, and to be effective they need to show leadership in order that they can carry out our wishes.

You also say....
"Anyway, if I recall correctly, most of the objectives from the last ballot were met"
I could fill the server of pprune explaining why this was NOT the case but experiencing it first hand I can reassure you that this was not the case. BALPA was allowed to declare the victory and it was in their interests to tell the members that all was acheived, rather than admit ineffectiveness and failure. Co-pilots at EOG recieved about 11% more for 10% more work(actually at a loss if those same hours had been worked on the old pay....overtime), the increase in the CAPT's wages(longevity) was sufficient to fill the increasing GAP in numbers of people bidding for EOG Commands(BA needed to do something to encourage bidders and their tactic proved a success, but this was not as a result of BALPA's actions). In fact BA had proposed introducing longevity into EOG months before the pay negotiations to solve their shortage problems but actually delayed doing so for months so that it could be seen as a concession to the negotiations. Other so called BALPA victories included;
- a repeated promise(from pay deal negotiations 2yrs previous) to look into a bidding system for EOG(installed 5years late).
- New Entrant lower wages slipped in at the second round, which I think they have done quite well out of over the past few years of recruitment(a third of BA pilots now on this wage).

The list goes on but it is hard to realistically call it a success. I remember sitting at a BALPA meeting pre-strike where BALPA showed various overhead slides at BA's pay proposals and had a jolly good laugh about it and showed how it was actually a loss in pay. Anyone else who attended might remember. After the strike vote the only difference was BA reduced the annual hrs by about 5 from their proposal, they introduced longevity(surprise surprise, no more CAPT shortage)and NEW Entrant lower wages. I opposed this at the time based on our projected retirement rate meant we would soon have a lot of angry colleagues.

Your continued personal vindictiveness towards JF I will not comment on except to say you continue to ignore people telling you that JF is not actually running to stay in the GS office. He is not benefitting personally from this at all. In fact he is sticking his neck out a lot further than any of our BALPA "Leaders" have done since I've been in this union and will probably incurr only a lot of thankless work in doing so. Perhaps he lacks the FEAR gene that is required to rise to the top of our union.

Good luck with your CD vote, if the poll on this board is anything to go by though I wouldn't run down to Ladbrokes betting your wages on his victory.

[rubik101]

Two points.

1. If my somewhat limited memory serves me correctly, since CD became Gen. Sec. we have scarecly heard a word of dissent from him. From the the ivory tower he inhabits at great expense to the membership, he failed spectacularly to move to prevent the massive lay offs caused by BA's heavy-handed move on Gatwick.

2. If anyone thinks that in the present climate that BA will continue to wield it's big stick in the same way as it did in the past, then they only have to look at the pitiful attempt by BA to muscle in to the Low cCost market to see they have cocked up in a big way recently and don't look as if they know quite where to go in the future.

[next in line]

Airrage,

<<Your continued personal vindictiveness towards JF I will not comment on except to say you continue to ignore people telling you that JF is not actually running to stay in the GS office>>

Please calm down. There is no personal vindictiveness towards JF; he is a friend of mine and I know exactly why he is standing. I don't agree with him but some others do.

The T&Cs at EOG and the rest of BA for that matter are nothing to do with CD - the CC takes the decisions after consulting with the community. If you don't like the way that your reps are handling matters then why don't you stand for election and try and make a difference.

It is not worth me trying to have a balanced discussion when you accuse me of being 'vindictive' so I will have nothing else to say on this matter. Sorry.

[airrage]

You say you are a friend of JF and you show no vindictiveness. Apologies for misinterpretting some of your recent comments..........
"a General Secretary who knows b all about running a Union, and who doesn't stay for meetings"
"JF has many talents but attending meetings until they finish is not one of them - he is always sloping off early from cc meetings; goes with living abroad I presume."

I don't think the above type of comments accurately reflect your desire for a "balanced discussion" as they are of a more personal nature. If we keep to the facts of the matter rather than personal judgements(like the irrelevance of where one lives) then a balanced discussion will naturely ensue.

As for "The T&Cs at EOG and the rest of BA for that matter are nothing to do with CD".......Sorry I thought he was the General Secretary of BALPA who I donate 1% of my career earnings(roughly 100K/year in his pocket)and who have failed continuely to protect our T&C's. I have also covered this in my previous post(sorry for repeat).....

"Yes but is the General Secretary to Blame ?
Many people have stated that one cannot blame Chris Darke(CD) personally for the degradation of UK Pilots pay and conditions over the past 10years(the fact that degradation has occurred is generally not in any doubt) and why should we need to elect someone else. I agree it is not desired or credible to try to appropriate blame to any one individual in BALPA to our degrading T&C's, but as established in the role of GS, surely he is the person "ultimately responsible". The only thing possibly questionable is how he has managed to secure a 45% pay rise between 96-00 whilst the pilots T&C's he is enrolled to protect continue to lose ground whilst increasing productivity. Blame for blames sake is not constructive, but weeding out weakness is. With the coincidental timing of the G.S.'s re-election it is wholly appropriate to examine the past 10years of his leadership and examine whether we are happy with his results or whether other suitable candidates should be considered. "

As for "If you don't like the way that your reps are handling matters then why don't you stand for election and try and make a difference. "
This is a comment you often hear from people if you dare mention dissatisfaction with BALPA and is in fact misleading as it ignores the fact that we have already made a difference by exercising our democratic rights by electing those creditable individuals who have volunteered for the job and share our outlook. I don't have to run for Prime Minister just to get my opinions as a citizen expressed do I?

Besides I have NEVER stated that I don't like the way that your reps are handling matters in my previous posts.......
"It is important to mention that the following is not meant to in anyway to reflect negatively on the hard work and daily achievements of our local council BALPA reps who do a tremendous job with little thanks, but rather to examine the effectiveness of the higher echelons of our union."
and
"I'll pre-empt the..."but we are BALPA, and it is up to us". Yes this is very true, and this is why we have elected people to represent our wishes"

I have not felt the need in the past to run as there has usually been more than enough respected pilots to choose from in the elections. I believe as previously stated the problem lies in the top of our union not at the CC level. Recent "Fearful" comments(admittedly not verified as they were not made to me directly) about the union have been attributed to both the Chairman and Vice-chairman. It is under their guidance and leadership that our reps operate, and the present Guiding Principle of Fear that dominates our reps as they carry out their duties will only change with a change of Leadership.

Airrage.
Always happy to have a 'balanced discussion.'

[XFO1-11]

For Info.

Acounts have only been released to the year 2000.

I did have the figures in a table but it has not come out on the forum. It does make them hard to read but they are accurate and taken from the BALPA certified accounts.


1989 1990 1991 1992
Subscription 1407455 1735763 2037380 2189912
Staff Costs 604110 596275 785715 704273
Office Costs 204808 556840 289214 339734
Legal Cost 1 63088 152586 161059 152062

Profit (Loss).-182677 -28887 319779 112872


1993 1994 1995 1996
Subscription 2219091 2233338 2243042 2447548
Staff Cost 760122 749113 900612 916981
Office Cost 342072 394026 425241 481757
Legal Cost 1 312890 398853 484387 365541


Profit (Loss) 45890 19531 -346007 70117

General Sec
Basic Salary 45883 47723 50564 59160
NI 5115 4331 4909 5901
Pension 454 432 5821 6876
Benefits 3664 4504 4958 5265
Total 55116 57040 66252 77202



1997 1998 1999 2000
Subscription 2570330 2738895 2904339 3027873
Staff Costs 1058093 1101524 1235365 1400561
Office Costs 531403 668032 656683 724538
Legal Cost 1 308782 345611 509894 296776
Legal Cost 2 488572

Profit (Loss) -100527 -198057 -245706 -672907

General Sec
Basic Salary 69500 77696 76422 85042
NI 6551 7097 8618 9152
Pension 6176 10212 22927 25513
Benefits 5240 2783 - -
Total 87467 97788 107967 119707

Facts.

From 1989 to 2000 subscriptions rose 115%

Staff Costs have risen 133%
Office Costs have risen 254%
Legal Costs have risen 269%

The General Secretary’s Remuneration was not reported in the annual accounts prior to 1993.

From 1993 to 2000 General Secretary’s Basic Salary has risen 85%
Our Contributions to the General Secretary’s Pension have risen 5519%
The General Secretary’s total remuneration has risen 117%

Subscriptions rose 36% over the same period of 93-00.

GS Salary inc vs RPI.

Year 1994 RPI 2.5% GS Salary 4%,
Year 1995 RPI 3.4% GS Salary 6%,
Year 1996 RPI 2.4% GS Salary 17%,
Year 1997 RPI 3.2% GS Salary 17.5%,
Year 1998 RPI 3.3% GS Salary 11.8%,
Year 1999 RPI 1.6% GS Salary -1.6% (+124% Pension),
Year 2000 RPI 3% GS Salary 11.3%.

Regards,
XFO1-11

[Dan Winterland]

So, when do I get to vote? So far I've heard nothing. (Might be my fault as most of what I get from Balpa goes straight for recycling - I have rarely been bored enough to read the bi-monthly rag about Nigels).

Unless I hear soon, I shall cast my own vote by cancelling my membership.

[XFO1-11]

Dan Winterland,

Voting in June, expect the papers in May.

Regards,
XFO1-11

[M.Mouse]

airage


I hate to get personal but any chance you could attend a concise writing course?

[Human Factor]

I only know about the up and coming vote because of this forum. I guess I was naive in thinking that being a paid up BALPA member for five years meant that I may be informed about things through the proper channels .........

[airrage]

M.Mouse, thanks for that deep, insightful commentary. Do you prefer posts with one or two syllable words? Perhaps I can even paste some pictures.

Either way, I'll do the writing course if you promise to do the spelling course.

Regards,
Airrage(with two r's)

PS: All serious readers please ignore this silly post.

[Fuzzy112]

Human Factor


"I only know about the up and coming vote because of this forum. I guess I was naive in thinking that being a paid up BALPA member for five years meant that I may be informed about things through the proper channels ........."

What you are 'naive' about is assuming that being a paid up member of BALPA means that somehow everything is just going to land in your lap. For f***s sake get off your a** and take an interest in whats going on. You need to remember that BALPA IS it's members, the decision is ultimately yours.

CD is being used as a scapegoat in this thread to cover up some of the decisions that have been taken by individual CC's. I for one hope that a BA pilot does NOT end up being GS of BALPA. That would be reason enough for a 1% pay rise.

[airrage]

Just so no-one is fed inaccurate information;

Fact 1: No 'BA pilot' is running with the intention of staying in the position of GS, only to provide sufficient time for a suitable replacement to be found. A more realistic GS election timetable and election notification would have allowed time for this suitable candidate to run directly against CD(a more desired outcome), but unfortunately due to the BALPA head offices intention to re-instate CD with as little competition as possible, this proved an impossibility.

Fact 2: The head office of BALPA purposely failed in communicating to their members that the GS elections were due(as proved by many on this board surprised to hear here first that a GS election was even occurring)in order to avoid the growing dissent(as also proved by the poll here on pprune) by it's members about the continuing decline in their working terms and conditions over the past 10years under CD's leadership. Worrying that they thought we didn't need to properly informed and they could streamline their own intentions!!!!!

Fact 3: Saying one will not vote for a candidate before they have even read their election address and who might actually be good for the union(can't do a worse job than the last 10years)simply because they are a "BA pilot"(and despite Fact 1 above) is the type of close-minded attitude that threatens all UK pilots future. Lets have an open and honest assessment of CD's accomplishments over his term and then vote. Can any pilot in the uk say they are really happy with the direction of things over the past 10years? If yes then vote CD, if not then maybe a change is appropriate.

Lets not have petty in-fighting between what firms we all work for when it comes to the bigger issue of voting on an important union election and also comes at a crucial time in the future of UK pilot's in general.

[Brae_Cwynd]

Interesting post Airrage (with two r's). A few points.

Thanks to Margaret Thatcher, timetables for elections for Trade Union Officials are laid down by statute. Who is this mysterious 'BALPA Head Office' that you claim is subverting the process? Enough people (20 at least) knew in time to put a motion to the last Annual Delegate Conference in November not to elect Chris Darke. (It was resoundingly defeated by the way)The deadline for conference motions is sometime back in the summer. That is a fact.

You assume that all the posts expressing suprise at the election are from current BALPA members, and those who have the time to read everything that drops through their mail box. I doubt that you can claim that as a fact.

By all means, lets have an open and honest debate. I have an open mind but from the tone of your posts, I doubt if you do, but I won't claim that as a fact.

Finally, may I suggest that you don't take a number of unsubstantiated rumours and accusations and present them as 'facts'. After all to quote your own post,
" just so no-one is fed inaccurate information".

[airrage]

Brae,

You seem to be an informed chap.

I would be interested to know your opinions on;
- what you think of CD's last 10years in office?
- do you think pilot's terms and conditions in the UK have declined during that time ? If so, as GS, does CD have to shoulder some of the responsibility for this ?
- do you think CD should be re-elected ?
- do you think that it is solely as a result of BALPA members being busy that they were unaware of the GS elections or has communication in this area proven inadequate? (Resulting in Maggies election timetable(from awareness to nominations) being somewhat shortened.)
- why do some other unions appear to have greater respect from their employers with respect to protecting their members interests than BALPA, in particular, securing pay at greater than or equal to mkt rate ?

Thanks in advance,
Airrage.

[beaver eager]

I have received the april Airwaves (The Balpa News and Campaign Brief) by e-mail yesterday... So it's as up to date as information gets, and there is no mention whatsoever of any challenge to CD.

Surely, the election for the post of General Secretary is about the most newsworthy issue that BALPA has at present, especially as there is a challenge underway.

It all smells a funny colour to me. :eek:

[M.Mouse]

Well BALPA has over 4000 members at least and a whole 200 have voted here. What an amazing level of dissent. Either BALPA members do not in general read PPRuNe or lethargy rules.

I too have been suprised to hear absolutely nothing official yet.

I have been reading Rick Brennan's robust defence, on the BALPABA compuserve forum, of yacht hire and rep spending with interest. Apparently BALPA is in excellent financial form contrary to the allegations being made.

[Human Factor]

Fuzzy,

Don't want to get into a slanging match but I will happily get off my a*** and do something if I get to know what is going on. Unfortunately, I work quite hard for a living and am not in a position to find much out other than by emails, which I'm not being sent apparently, or snail-mail (ditto).

As far as I'm aware though, the BA pilot in question is acting in order to get someone with a vague interest in the welfare of union members into the post of GS. If elected, he will step down immediately that there are a selection of credible candidates to choose from. This will not occur as long as CD remains incumbent.

Please do not allow anti-BA paranoia to cloud the issue of mismanagement at the top of BALPA. If it does, we all lose, whether we're BA or not.

HF

[M.Mouse]

Well, well. A missive arrives from BALPA this morning. Basically a page and a half endorsement of Chris Darke from Mervyn Granshaw Association Chairman.

Goes into details of the debate obout CD at the last ADC, which was deliberately NOT reported in the ADC conference report.

Is it right that the association chairman should be using BALPA facilities to promote the incumbent GS?

Funny but the more I hear about this whole business the more I suspicious I become about what is really going on! The letter has had the effect of making me less likely to vote for CD.

Still amazed at the apathy being shown in the poll on this thread.

[airrage]

M.Mouse,

You said it all. How dare Merv G. use BALPA funds to try and rig the direction of the election by slagging off the other candidate in this letter. I thought it was bad enough that CD had the advantage the GS intro in the BALPA log to start his pre-election spin(as he suddenly decided a lengthy chat was necessary), but this is ridiculous. He has even played on the unfortunate BA/non-BA animosities by trying to make it appear the actions of just a couple disgruntled BA Local council reps in cahoots(I guess he hasn't seen the pprune Poll results YET).

he says point blank...
"However, two BA Local Councils have exercised their democratic right to nominate alternative candidate, John Frohnsdorff. John is himself a member of the NEC, in the BA constituency, and he with three others in the same constituency(implying BA mates are you Merv)declined to support Christopher."

He then goes on to say,
" It is therefore vital that the result reflects the view of the Association as a whole, and not simply those who are best organised to mobilise their support."

I think Merv should resign for sending out such a letter. How dare he try to mobilise a BA/non-BA split in OUR UNION, and try to influence what would have been a democratic process. If I was non-BA and hadn't read any of the posts on this board, and just received this letter I would definately think the election is the result of just a few disgruntled BA pilots and wouldn't dream of voting JF after this.

I guess the Merv "FEAR" factor I talked about in the other post is true and starting to kick in. I really think the top of our union are in a world of their own if they think they get away with a letter like this. I really think Merv should resign. I FEAR Merv will stir up a greater response than he has imagined though all not favourable and his stupid action might end up being the trigger that eventualy results in bringing the TGWU into BA. Especially if BA pilots start to feel as an isolated group where any of our actions are just overruled by the rest of the union simply because they originate from a BA pilot-rep.

Well Merv, congratulations you have just convinced me that come the GS eletion results I will probably exercise my democratic rights and leave BALPA. Besides, it will help me repatriate the extra 1% of my pay the gov't has just taken in NIC contributions and it seems I can't rely on BALPA in ever securing me a proper pay rise with the present incumbants in autocratic RULE. They won't even let us have a fair election !

[airrage]

I would like to know what BALPA intends to do given Election Rule 24 para.(4) of BALPA's rules has clearly been violated by our Assoc.Chairman;

RULE 24
(4) If, before or after the result of a ballot conducted under this Rule has been announced, it appears to the National Executive Council that any irregularity may have occurred which could materially affect the result or validity of that ballot, the National Executive Council shall have power:

(i) to suspend the conduct of the ballot for such a period not exceeding one month as it may determine; and/or

(ii) to declare such ballot void.

If the NEC declares a ballot void it may(and, if so required by these Rules, shall) forwith cause a further ballot to be condicted in accordance with this Rule.

I think it would hard to find a court in this land that wouldn't find that a "irregularity may have occurred which could materially affect the result."

[faq]

Mentioning NI contributions;

Does anyone know if the employer pays employee NI on flight pay, or is it just paid on salary?

[NigelOnDraft]

Can some "non-BA" replies identify themselves, and what they thought of that letter?

As has been remarked elsewhere, to people who did not know what was going on, it makes them less inclined to vote for CD because of the (now blatant) stitch up going on..

Seems something similar happened to Tony Blair trying to nobble the results of the London mayor election..??

Democratic election - I think not.

NoD

[Pontiuspilot]

Astounded by the letter. I would have expected him to try to be impartial ideally, certainly not so implicitly critical of JF.
Only thing that worries me is that it is a BA skipper standing for election. Smacks a bit of BritishAirways Line Pilots Association again. It would help if JF put his side of the story, and quickly!

[Hand Solo]

Pontius I've posted a reply to your concerns on a different thread, but to assuage your fears JF has no intention whatsoever of electing a BA line pilot or any BA representative to the position of GS. His sole aim is to buy us all time to find a better GS buy using professional recruitment specialists to find the best man for the job, instead of just the previous man for the job. CD gets over £100000 of our money each year and we should all expect more from our GS than just taking the credit for changes in union recognition legislation. As an association member I want him to spell out exactly what he stands for, a small chore that CD thought he could overlook until a challenger was found. There is no BritishAirways Line Pilots Association these days, if anything MGs letter showed exactly the opposite - that BALPA leadership will stoop to any depth to sideline the concerns of the BA contingent.

[Pontiuspilot]

Hand Solo, reply also on the other thread. Thanks for the views and info, I think I follow your line of thought, and agree with your conclusion.

[LJ.543]

Pontius & Hand Solo

What is this 'other thread' of which you speak ?

Care to let the rest of us in on the secret ?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Keep the blue side up!

[N2000]

Time to stop lurking..............I have been a BALPA member for 13 years.

My pay and conditions have not kept pace with my reasonable expectations.

Regardless of who is the General Secretary, if BALPA membership is at an all time high, surely its finances should also be at an all time high? ( As an aside, do all members pay 1%?)

I want a General Secretary who will work to improve my pay and conditions, not allow them to decline further in real terms.

I want BALPA to be less of an "association", and more of a UNION!!!

[Diesel]

N2000

BALPA's finances are inevitably under strain. Each new member is entitled to unlimited legal cover and support - all good stuff of course. However if we are expanding in areas where remuneration is poor then 1% is not a lot towards these cost. Additionally BALPA has expanded its operation to increase contacta with other non-uk associations. This has led to an increase in overseas conferences/meetings etc... all very expensive.

Like you I would like to see BALPA be more of a union but I suspect that as long as we continue to be an Association of empolyees in different companies with inevitably different aspirations and problems such a change will never occur.

[N2000]

Diesel

You said "Each new member is entitled to unlimited legal cover and support"...........yes, but only due to an incident/accident or such surely?

Surely overseas conferences etc should be done at minimum expense?

And do we need Airwaves and The Log as glossy magazines?

Once again, less of an association, more of a UNION would have more effect!

[unwiseowl]

Yes I want it to be more of a union too. The fancy meetings in nice hotels in nice places' are a thing which anoys many members, si stop them.
And above all, I'm most disschuffed with the rate at which Chris Darke has grown his salary: it should be indexed to the average pilots pay rise.

[Pontius]

Air Rage,

You and I must be joined at the hip. Your posting almost mirrors the letter that is now winging its merry way to New Road.

I am disgusted at MG's mis-use of BALPA resources in his thinly-disguised Darke manifesto and will be interested in his reply to the uses of an un-biased election.........even if it is by the likes of us, who were working and therefore not supreme enough to attend the politics of the Superior Meeting.

With luck he'll E-mail me and I will post the response.

Vote JF is what I say.

Pontius

Yes, the original one, spelt correctly with no bits added on to make a slightly different, yet very late in registering-type name :rolleyes: .......obviously not directed at AR

[Pontiuspilot]

So, as you will hopefully have seen by now, we agree about more than we disagree. As background, ;) I must point out I have been known as Pontius since my ATC days, which commenced in 1966, predating you by three years :) but who's counting.
It's reassuring to see we agree more than differ. :D

Keep up the good work my little blossom, just try not to take yourself too seriously :rolleyes:

Yours in amity,

Pontiuspilot:cool:

[Hot Wings]

It looks as though Chris "Mugabe" Darke has had his cage rattled!
Mervyn Hogwash needs to start packing his bags as well.

So Mugabe has the support of those well known line pilots Lord Clinton-Davis and Sir Alexander Glen. It appears to me that the real fear at New Road is that the end of their gala dinners might be in sight. Endorsements for Darke from members of the establishment elite seem to carry more weight than 2 company councils and the members that they represent. (Sounds like French politics doesn't it?). MG has made a terrible mistake with his letter and I hope that it back-fires on him.

The time has come for us to take back control of our union. The BALPA leadership needs to listen to its members and above all, actually show some leadership. Our union cannot and should not survive as an "old boys" club. (Just look at our magazine - page after page about pensions and prostates yet never an article about how to live in the south east on pay point one of a B-scale!).

[N2000]

Hot Wings

Re The Log, I agree totally! In fact, do we need it at all? It smacks of being an association, club etc.

Lets have BALPA as a UNION

[speed check]

As a balpa member, i along with others agree we do not have a union but a club .

Questions I would ask is why do i pay 1% for little or no return ?
Who hired CD inthe first place ?
Anybody have any one else in mind ?
Does BALPA have any clout any more ?
Can anyone apply for his job or is applications closed?

Yours soon to be another EX balpa Member.

[flt_lt_w_mitty]

Word has reached me that a formal complaint has been raised against Mr Granshaw for possible abuse of BALPA procedures with regard to campaigning for the forthcoming GS election. It appears that the NEC were not advised of his intention to send out the letter. The matter is to go to a disciplinary, which of course will mean that Mr G can call on BALPA funds to defend against the charge of mis-use of BALPA funds...........

Let me try that again...........

Anyone know if the Monty Python team are still available for script-writing?

(PS IPA/IPF £10 per month! Free legal advice, and representation if needed. Newsletter but no glossy magazine nor junkets abroad. Could someone tell Mervyn?):eek:

[Rider of the Purple Sage]

I'll be damned! Mitty, thank you for the suggestion. Not much of a choice really, 120 smakeroonies pa, or nearer 650. I shall stay for the vote though, if BALPA can't be a union, we might as well be part of an association for a lot less loot.

I still haven't had any papers regarding the vote though!

[sir_jim_wallaby]

Could you advise the problem with the darke ones re-election?
I have been "elsewhere" recently and am not quite up to speed with the saga. I did notice the BALPA org was supporting him via the mags and wonder if this is normal union style and will the opposers also get time in the mag?

[Big Kahuna Burger]

This letter from Granshaw is so out of order. He has clearly abused his situation and title to influence the masses.

He is well out of order, with this type of propaganda BS singing the beareded ones praises.

This is not about BA vs Other airlines, - this is about making BALPA into a strong, well regarded, professional union with a presence and clout in which we need and can be proud of.

The suggestion of BALPA being an Old boys 'club' rather than anything else, is probably the closest to the truth.

BALPA needs a bloody great shot of adrenaline, for all of our sakes, which employer we work for. The only way I feel this could be achieved is to cleanse the old Toffs etc from the top (what are they all about ?)

We should not forget that BALPA is the membership. They are but only our representatives, it’s a shame that they do not act like it.

PS
And for gods sake: is this day and age, their attempt to communicate electronically with their members is laughable. BALPAs WEB SITE IS PATHETIC A 5 yr old could produce a better website with facts, figures, and updates (that are current, not 2 mths old) that might just be USEFULL TO THE MEMBERSHIP!!!


Rant over.
:mad: :mad:

[upperecam]

Try as I do I have NEVER been able to trust guys with facial hair!!
Beards or moustache.

[The Little Prince]

Oh come on!!!!!!!

Sack the bastard. Vote for Johnny. At least he's a pilot.:cool:

[vegas_jonny]

We have to grasp this oppurtunity to put a stop to the malaise and self satisfaction prevalent at the Balpa top table. Terms and conditions have been slowly but surely heading south, whilst balpa have been poncing about on issues of less relative importance.
If we do get a change of leadership, there may be a period of short term flux, but I am convinced that a new broom is needed if any of us are to prosper in the longer term. Nike.

[M.Mouse]

First we have the disgraceful letter from the BALPA chairman which was very cleverly worded to try and influence people to vote for CD and now we have the letter to Britannia members allegedly from the Britannia CC chairman explaining how wonderful CD is and by the way don't forget to vote for the candidate that you think is best!

I have never seen such disgraceful propaganda being published by those that should know better to try and influence a quite legitimate election.

There seems to be a deliberate drive to make this election be seen as a BA plot against non-BA BALPA members.

What are they afraid of? That the cosy gravy train is being exposed perhaps?

If the election contest is seen to be free and fair then the majority verdict will be accepted with good grace but the level of anger being generated by the underhand tactics so far will lead to
mass resignations by BA members.

That will benefit nobody except perhaps the employers.

One only has to look at how damaging the formation of CC89 as a breakaway from BASSA for BA cabin crew was to see what might happen.

[unwiseowl]

And I wonder who gets to count the votes':rolleyes:'

[Hand Solo]

I see Mervyn has sent us all another letter explaining how he wasn't really a naughty boy. Its lucky that our association sought legal advice on the matter and the NEC decided he was in the clear after all! Still, with 7000 members and two letters sent first class to each he's only wasted £3780 of our associations funds on his folly, so thats alright then.

[M.Mouse]

You couldn't make this up!

Apparently Mervyn Granshaw's letter did not contravene the law nor BALPA rules.

Allegedly he admitted he had obtained a legal opinion on the proposed letter before it went out............on the advice of Chris Darke!

Add a legal fee to the postage costs.

[airrage]

Dear MERV,

Thanks for spending even more of our money demonstrating once again not only your arrogance towards the membership, but your ignorance toward a fair election process. It would have been a more gracious thing to have sent nothing, than waste our money(again) trying to justify what was obvious to all BALPA members, your election rigging attempt. A the very least it should have been a letter issued by the lawyers concerned , not another MERV free CD RANT.

Besides, an apology would have been preferred stating that although no laws were broken he had shown an error in judgement by sending out such a letter prior to an election and was sorry for upsetting the membership. His one line JF plug about being a fully paid up member has done little to redress the imbalance of the 2page CD plug received previously.

The fact that a legal case may have been difficult to prove(which I doubt in the first place) does not lessen the fact that in all practicality the letter was an outrageous faux pas. How many people here think former Pres.B.CLINTON, "Did not have sex with that women", or did not try drugs because he "didn't inhale".

I also am slightly cynical without info regarding which lawyer's were in fact consulted. How many members here would be satisfied if it was in fact a BALPA Association lawyer that had found that there was no breach of Rule24 of it's own Assoc.Chairman? Nothing like Investigating your own crimes is there. It would be a bit like getting Hilters's SS to Investigate whether to prosecute for war crimes.

My faith in our Union HEAD OFFICE(not local CC's) is detriorating rapidly after this last MERV Special Update. Three questions;
1. When is Merv up for Re-Election ?
2. Can we really say that "an irregularity(or maybe BALPA's lawyers consider this a regularity for this Union, hence the legality issue) has not occurred that could materially affect the Ballot Results." (Rule 24)
3. Who here thinks our Clintonesque(Non-Inhaling, celibate) Assoc.chairman Merv should resign?

[Hot Wings]

Airrage - when is Merv up for re-election?!!! I'm choking on my cornflakes! Is BALPA a union or a sitcom? A prolonged sweep with a very large broom is required at New Road.

[The Zombie]

What a joke this has become......!!

My 1% (over 12 yrs now) is a 'small' price to pay for the support and valuable representation that our union offers.

However, I too have expressed my views over this election comunication to New Road and that is what you all should do.

Do not complain on this forum. Give them a telephone call today.
Tell them what you think.

Ps. I'll vote for John. He's a pilot too !!

[airrage]

I have started a POLL called "What to do about MERV". Go there and let your opinions be known. Results will be forwarded to BALPA on the 1st of June.

What to do about MERV (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52097)

[next in line]

It is now becoming clear what is driving this. Two years ago, some of the BA Long Haul council made themselves look fools by resigning over an issue - the 777 bunk affair. They alleged that CD went behind their backs and entered into negotiations with BA. What actually happened was that in an effort to move matters forward, CD asked the BA CC chairman (ex LHCC) if it would be worthwhile having an off the record exploratory meeting with BA. The Chairman agreed and asked his scheduling reps to come up with some ideas. MR and SM are now on the NEC and are seeking revenge.

IS - aka Captain Angry - is obsessed with the GS' salary and bores MAN FOs silly with his views; they are all delighted that they have been directed to LHR and no longer have to listen to him expressing his anger which has got worse since he became a rep. IS attempted to get the ADC to agree with his views on the GS but was not successful. MR and SM teamed up with IS to get elected to the NEC and the first two were successful.

JF is upset that his beloved Pensions Consultant has been given the heave ho and blames the GS. Despite being a nice chap, J has been stitched up by MR SM and IS who all have personal agendas to prosecute.

[Boeingman]

Thanks next in line . At long last some facts. The conspiracy theorists have been running riot.

There are a few people out there shooting themselves in the foot. I think their attention could be focussed better elsewhere, like getting a decent payrise for their members. Merv and CD are on their side, after all is said and done.

[airrage]

As far as the BA LH CC resigning I believe it is because the reps wanted to have a financial penalty in place if BA did not implement their promises of the agreed 777 final-stage rest facility in place by a certain date. The BA rep's refused to budge on this issue as they know historically BA promises mean nothing unless a fianancial motive exists for them to do so(Penalty).

CD signed the agreement against the wishes of the reps. Result: The 777 has now been in BA about 6-7years and Boeing has yet to receive the go-ahead to begin production of the final-stage rest facility agreed which would take over a year to get onboard the first aircraft. HHMMMM......you decide.

The general Secretary Elections are not and have not ever been about a BA plot, anyone who has read the past posts in full will realise this(see my lengthy post on page3). It is important that we pilots stay together as a group and try not to descend into a anti-BA rant and figure out whats best going forward.

If you re-read my posts you will find that I do not post anti-Darke messages, in fact my first post stated;

"Yes but is the General Secretary to Blame ?

Many people have stated that one cannot blame Chris Darke(CD) personally for the degradation of UK Pilots pay and conditions over the past 10years(the fact that degradation has occurred is generally not in any doubt) and why should we need to elect someone else. I agree it is not desired or credible to try to appropriate blame to any one individual in BALPA to our degrading T&C's, but as established in the role of GS, surely he is the person "ultimately responsible". The only thing possibly questionable is how he has managed to secure a 45% pay rise between 96-00 whilst the pilots T&C's he is enrolled to protect continue to lose ground whilst increasing productivity. Blame for blames sake is not constructive, but weeding out weakness is. With the coincidental timing of the G.S.'s re-election it is wholly appropriate to examine the past 10years of his leadership and examine whether we are happy with his results or whether other suitable candidates should be considered."

So I am not anti-Darke but I do express extreme discomfort with BALPA's head Office attempts to avert our unions Democratic processes;
1. First by attempting to not notify all members properly that his position was due for re-election. What is the justification for not sending out a letter, cost ?.........then how can they not discipline Merv Granshaw for then sending out 2 separate letters supporting CD's Election ?
2. MG sending out his first letter.
3. MG sending out his second letter.

1+2 above point load and clear that BALPA had no intention of running a fair Election and intended for CD to be re-instated with NO fuss. #3 above shows an unapologetic arrogance for it's members that smacks of maintaining the status quo of a cushy head office. Remember this is OUR union and we want it run democratically, not like some elite private society.

It's all our future's so lets not confuse the issues.

[M.Mouse]

airrage

Although we are on the same side your verbosity and the pointless thread you started about Mervyn Granshaw make you sound and seem ridiculous.

[XFO1-11]

M Mouse,

I think Airrage is expressing frustration at antics interfering with a fair election.

Can you really blame him?

Regards,
XFO1-11

[Hand Solo]

It wasn't a few members of the Long Haul Council that resigned, it was all of them! Wasn't it something along the lines of the reps said to CD "Do not under any circumstances sign this agreement" and CD came back and said "Oops, I signed the agreement". Whats the point in having a GS if he goes against the clearly stated instructions of the people he is supposed to represent? How would you like it in your airline if you sent CD to the board saying "Do not do x,y,z" and he came right back saying "Ooops, just signed all your rights away!"?

[next in line]

Hand Solo

Not all the LHLC resigned - 4 remained deciding that continuing to work on behalf of their colleagues was more important than trying to make a point.

The financial penalty that airrage mentions was doomed not to succeed due to the number of volunteers willing to fly long range without an acceptable bunk. stage 2 is currently in place - as agreed - and is considered acceptable by those who use it - again, no shortage of pilots bidding for these long range flights! I agree that the Overhead rest facility is indeed not installed due to Sept 11th and the airline's financial state (the excuse for everything these days including not sending printed timetables to FOs and EOs but only to captains and chief stewards) but BA wants it more than the pilots since the current facility reduces the number of first class seats availabe for sale!

CD does not sign agreements off his own bat. MO, the chairman at the time, was of the opinion that since the LH reps who were present at the meeting (but in a separate room although kept fully consulted on the developments as they arose) were happy with the arrangements including the stage 2 bunks which are currently in place, then it was quite acceptable to sign an agreement.

This was the final meeting, a 'Standing Conference'. If agreement had not been made, then BA were at liberty to do what they wanted. It was felt that as 777 pilots were falling over themselves to do the work - without a proper bunk - then BA would go ahead reasoning that pilots would not go on strike over lack of a bunk, a view that was being continually expressed to various reps from the line community.

No rights were signed away. In fact, an agreement was made which introduced a standard of bunk which is acceptable with an overhead unit(OCRF) to be installed which, btw, will have rest seats fitted which are not stressed for take off and landing which results in the extra pilots being on the FD for take off and landing which results in the jump seats NOT being available for the captain's and FO's wives, sorry, spouses (the current arrangements having rest seats in the cabin for the spouses)! Some pilots are now telling their reps to delay the OCRF as long as they can!

[XFO1-11]

Next in Line,

I have been asked to place the following on the forum by MR who is not on PPruNe.

Regards,
XFO1-11


Assertion: "Not all the LHLC resigned - 4 remained deciding that continuing to work on behalf of their colleagues was more important than trying to make a point"

Facts: Incorrect - all but one of the LHLC resigned: although a small number
subsequently withdrew their resignations under pressure from the BALPA 'establishment'. However most of those now say that in retrospect they wish they had not withdrawn their resignations and are appalled at the way the 'establishment' refused to run the re-election that the BALPA Rules required on the basis that 'they would get the same team back so it was better to muddle through for nine months until the next 'calendar' election was due in the hope that
memories would dim'.

Assertion: "The financial penalty that airrage mentions was doomed not to succeed due to the number of volunteers willing to fly long range without an acceptable bunk"

Facts. Not sure fully what is meant here; but the LHLC position always was that should an acceptable deal not be reached through the 'formal/normal' BALPA
negotiating processes, then all the facts were to be placed before the 777 membership
and it would have been for the 777 members to decide in a democratic referendum
whether or not the BA proposal was acceptable. In the event CD and MO brokered a deal
which allowed BA to go back on areas already agreed with the 777 reps during local level negotiations (and recorded in agreed minutes of the meetings), allowed BA to go back on commitments made by the 777 Chief Pilot's in newsletters on the issue (ie his and
Mike Jeffery assurance that the overhead flight crew rest would form part of the agreement "....as your Director is committed to investment in crew facilities.....), and which fell well short of the BACC position which had been debated at length and agreed the
Thursday as CD and MO reached the substantially inferior deal on the following Monday.


Assertion: "....the excuse for everything these days including not sending printed timetables to FOs and EOs but only to captains and chief stewards....."

Facts: "These days" nobody gets a printed timetable because they are no longer produced.

Quote: "CD does not sign agreements off his own bat"

Facts: Mike Jeffery had approached CD about the urgent nature of an agreement on 777 Bunks so that already delayed decisions could be implemented on route splits between 744 and 777 fleets and the next bid packages produced. Under pressure from MJ, CD agreed to holding a 'Standing Conference', ie the end of the negotiating machinery between BA and BALPA. On its own this was rather 'irregular' because the issue was still at local level between BA and BALPA (hence the 777 reps acting at that stage on BALPA's behalf) and the next step would have been to elevate it to Head Office (where the BACC Chairman and others come in). Then if there is no agreement, it goes to Standing Conference and the GS and DFO come in. At that final level, there is an element of the GS having the potential to act "off his
own bat". What happened here is that the GS did exactly that (in aassociation with the BACC
Chairman) but only after allowing the BA DFO (MJ)to pressurise him into agreeing to elevate
the issue to a level within the negotiating machinery where it had not arrived by the
due process.

Assertion: "MO, the chairman at the time, was of the opinion that since the LH reps who
were present at the meeting (but in a separate room although kept fully consulted on the developments as they arose) were happy with the arrangements including the stage 2 bunks
which are currently in place, then it was quite acceptable to sign an agreement"

Facts: There are very serious errors here. The issue went like this:- 1. MJ wanted a Standing Conference (SC) to bring the issue to a head: despite the fact that the BA/BALPA machinery had not been exhausted - which is how you should get to a SC 2. He contacted CD and 'demanded' one and CD tried to obliged - but could not get an
'official team' at such short notice. However he did get a 'team' of sorts, but it did not include any 777 reps (or any others from the LHLC) nor the BACC Chairman or Vice-Chairman so was given the status of an 'interim SC' with the plan being to have a full SC on the Monday after availablities were resolved over the weekend. 3. At that 'interim SC' a document headed "Draft Proposals for the Handling of Long Range Trips on the 777 Fleet" was "agreed in principle". In the document was the clause "BALPA suggested 2X NCP payment per trip, BA responded with 1.5X NCP per trip" 4. Such a concept of EXTRA pay for operating the sub-standard 1a Bunk was 180 DEGREES REMOVED from the policy the LHLC was pursuing and also BACC policy - and this aspect of
777 Bunks policy had been endorsed by the BACC the day before the 'interim SC'. What the LHLC and BACC wanted was normal payments for those who flew the trips and protection for those senior enough to get the trips but who did not think they could rest adequately in the 1a bunk and therefore dropped the trips (NB the 1a bunk was agreed as having
shortcomings and hence BA's willingness to negotiate on this area). 5. Before the the full SC started on the Monday, the LHLC part of the BALPA team met with CD and MJ to voice their disquiet at these "draft scheduling proposals", and the rest of the morning was spent with CD and MJ going between the BA side and the LHLC reps getting the scheduling back into line with LHLC/BACC policy. Which is how the issue was finalised and operated. 6. The meeting then turned to the various stages up to the final Overhead Flight Crew Rest. CD brought to the LHLC reps BA's proposed agreement. This was then amended so it reflected areas which had already been agreed at local level and minuted in agreed minute as such; and also amended using words from Alan stealey's newsletters to incorporate the commitment he had made in newsletters into any agreement. 7. The SC then resumed WITH ALL THOSE INVOLVED ATTENDING THE FULL SC (ie including the full LHLC team - contrary to the assertions above). Discussion went on for some time but the BA side would not agree to its previously agreed points or promises/commitments being
'firmed up' into a formal agreement so the LHLC part of the BALPA team foun itself unable to agree. There was then an adjournment. 8. In his subsequent report to the NEC (explaining why all but one of the LHLC had
resigned) CD confirms this, he writes ".....The BALPA team then adjourned to consider the
negotiations.....". He then goes on in the document "After a long discussion and in spite
of the reps., the BACC Chairman and the GS agreed to tell the company that there was an
agreement based on the Friday and concluded on the Monday", ie he did do it off his own bat in association with the BACC Chairman (who was acting contrary to the position of the BACC a few days earlier). CD then goes on to write "There was no clear view from
the reps what they would do after rejection". THIS IS COMPLETELY UNTRUE BECAUSE THE LHLC REPS MADE CLEAR THAT THEY WERE NOT PREPARED TO ACCEPT AN AGREEMENT ON BEHALF ON THE FLEET THAT WAS INFERIOR TO PROMISES TO THE THE FLEET BY ITS CHIEF PILOT IN NEWSLETTERS
WITHOUT A BALLOT OF MEMBERS ON THE FLEET SIGNIFYING THEIR ACCEPTANCE. There can be no doubt about this position because the IRO (Chris Aikens - and it would be worth anyone asking him why he resigned from BALPA and posting it here)in the BA section had taken legal advice from the BA lawyers as to whether or not it would be legal to run a ballot within a
specific group of the pilot force - and the answer was yes.

Assertion: ".....777 pilots were falling over themselves to do the work - without a proper bunk - then BA would go ahead reasoning that pilots would not go on strike over lack of a bunk......."

Facts: If that's what the 777 pilots wanted by ballot, the LHLC would have happily accepted it - but what they could not be party to was an agreement allowing BA to go back on agreed/declared positions without reference to the affected members

Assertion: "No rights were signed away."

Facts: The agreement 'signed away' positions already agreed or promised in newsletters.

Assertion: "... with an overhead unit(OCRF) to be installed which, btw,
will have rest seats fitted which are not stressed for take off and landing
which results in the extra pilots being on the FD for take off and landing
which results in the jump seats NOT being available for the captain's and FO's
wives, sorry, spouses (the current arrangements having rest seats in the cabin for the spouses)! Some pilots are now telling their reps to delay the OCRF as long as they can!'>"

Comment: Really - in which case one assumes you must be a rep. How about having the courage to declare who you are and just where you have got all your duff gen. Every "fact" above can be substanstiated with full documantation - some of your errors are so serious, eg regarding the conduct of the SC and how the LHLC reps were involved, that you should reconsider your attitude to the whole issue

[airrage]

Nicely researched XFO, it's important mis-information does not get accepted as fact by someone acting in the Know. It's funny that someone apparently supporting CD should actually be the one to bring up this prime example of CD proceeding with an agreement with little regard for the CC reps stated objectives or the negotiation process. His henchman Merv G, shows equal ability in authoritarian practises. But then I suppose that's just me being cynical, like I really have a lot to gain by this Election.

Unlike MG however, I would like to take this time to apologise.....
I admit to overeacting in wanting due notification and a fair General Secretary Election process, as if it's even important to vote for the head of our pilot's union given their great results over the last decade. And then to overact to the Chairman's letter who was clearily annoyed at having an Election forced upon him by a few pesky members. To top it off, I then overacted to our Chairman's unapologetic second letter, declaring himself clear of wrongdoing(at our expense) by doing something as rash as holding a Democratic POLL asking how many people think he overstepped his position. For this I am truly guilty.

Edited 6 May.
I stand corrected, Poll still stands, just moved.Go to Poll (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52097)

I am also guilty, as a humble pilot, of questioning why it seems the top of our union not-so subtley tried to suppress the democratic process by not notifying us by letter that the GS position was up for re-election. Costs ? - then why can the chairman then send each member a letter(2times)off his own back without reprimand(surely MG's letters were not as important as notifying members that the position of head of our union was up for re-election?). Just when I thought that perhaps I was just imagining a conspiracy to re-instate CD, I received MG's 1st letter confirming my first suspicions.

I have been trying to show people that those at the top of our union are comfortable with the status quo. The status quo being an ever-increasing membership and personal pay whilst decreasing real pay and conditions for the pilots they represent. Ask yourself what I have to gain by saying I feel us pilots are being duped. I am not a rep and never have been. But some people were to gain if CD was re-instated, the status quo. Why have I arroused such anger just for wanting a fair election and a head office who realises I might want to know when the position for head of my union is up for re-election in case I have the audacity to actually vote given 1% of my earnings go to the union ?

At the end of the day, we are all Pilots whatever outfit. When are we as a group going to take back our rightful status from the airline's CV-builders, beancounters and those in BALPA's head office who have failed to protect us over the past 10years.

[beaver eager]

airrage you say,I am also guilty, as a humble pilot, of questioning why it seems the top of our union not-so subtley tried to suppress the democratic process by not notifying us by letter that the GS position was up for re-election.How long has "notso" been at the top of our union then? And does he even know?;)

Seriously though, whilst airrage is by his own admission guilty of significant over-reaction to these events, I can only applaud his efforts in highlighting what cannot be seen by any fair minded individual who is capable of thinking clearly, as anything other than an attempt to[list=a]
Avoid drawing attention to the fact that an election was due to take place in the first place.

Following the failure of the above strategy, to influence the result by using members' money to send out propaganda from a senior official endorsing his favoured candidate and besmirching the opponent.
[/list=a]

This is not good. Balpa had (again, by its own albeit tacit admission) a severe 'democratic deficit' some years back which it had until recently worked hard to overcome... It seems that there is still much work to be done in this direction at the very top of the organisation.

If this behaviour were allowed to continue, ordinary members with smaller axes to grind than airrage (or maybe just less time on their hands) will simply show their feelings by cancelling their subscriptions. We would then all be the losers because whatever state the union can allow our terms and conditions to sink to, without its continued existence, the management will just have a field day.


Oh! And just to correct the incorrect correction from earlier that was presented on behalf of MR as "fact"...Facts: "These days" nobody gets a printed timetable because they are no longer produced.
May I refer readers within BA to the communication dated 3rd May entitled "BA Timetables - note from Lloyd" which states clearly the correct position with regard to the issue of paper timetables... Captains and Senior Cabin Attendants only. i.e. One each side of the locked flight-deck door, to facilitate the answer of in-flight queries by connecting passengers.

[airrage]

Yes me again.

It is worth copying one of my other posts from different thread with regard the possibility of BA pilots leaving BALPA en-mass if dissatisfaction continues and joining another union. It is a serious worry but a definite possibilty.

UK union recognition laws changed this past year. Now, If 50+% of employees vote in favour of a union it has to be legally recognised by the firm involved(used to great affect by BALPA to increase membership over the past year). So if for instance more than 50% of BA pilots voted in favour to say bring the TGWU (who run BASSA our cabin crew union, plus our transport drivers, plus cargo) BALPA would cease to be the official union in BA. BA could still choose to acknowledge BALPA but it would cease to be effective within BA with less than 50% support. Just food for thought of course, but something people should keep in mind when they throw around anti-BA sentiment. At the moment the higher input per employees of BA-BALPA union subscriptions help fund some of the services that would not be around should these BA subscription funds be diverted elsewhere(in facts some say BALPA would be in financial trouble, CD and MG would have to take a pay cut perhaps). The attitude of our union head office of late also inches the yet untested numbers closer or over the needed 50%.

Time for another POLL ? (joke)

[BOROUGH COUNCIL]

This thread is getting a bit long. Can we start a new one with a name like: "New size and shape for BALPA about to be released", or "BA members approach ALPA to replace BALPA"

BALPA is top heavy and sadly the head-man gets the blame, from me anyhow. Remember how Air Canada just got up one day and left CALPA for ALPA. I wonder if ALPA knows what a longhaul heavy Captain is worth?

[Captain Slack-Bladder]

God - this thread is boring can't we all find someting else to chew to death?

PS. If BALPA subs were established at 1% eons ago cos there were very few members, why are they still so high when we have 5 to 10 times as many members? Is it because we have a spend-thrift inefficient admin, or that Balpa has allowed salaries to fall 5 to 10 fold?

[High Volt]

airrage

M.Mouse has a point. You are becoming tiresome and your verbosity is choking the flow of debate. I just skip read your posts by the yard. Say what you have to say concisely - God knows what your RT is like!

[exeng]

I am also annoyed that our chairman (MG) chose to spend approx £2000 of our money on postage of a letter to all members presenting (in my opinion) a biased view on the merits of our current Gen Sec.

Then, adding insult to injury, he spends a further £2000 on postage defending his actions.

In my view it is morally unacceptable to spend our money in such a way. I have lost my confidence in MG. I also believe that his action will have had the opposite effect to that which he desired in that many members, who were perhaps undecided, will now vote against CD.


Regards
Exeng

[airrage]

Exeng,

Merv thread exists
Merv G (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52097)

High Volt, I thought the idea of debate was to clearily state your opinion. It's called free speech. If other people choose to restrict their views to 2syllables that is for them to decide. Just like you can choose to skip my posts. Time and space is not critical on the internet as in RT. I do appreciate your comments as I realise some people prefer pictures and short text newspapers as opposed to broad-sheets.

Anyway, my ballot is in the mail as of this morning, tick one for JF.(Is this better?)

[Fourpuffs]

airrage - Totally agree with your point of view.
In a nutshell,

'it's the economy stupid'

but in terms of the subscription cost versus the benefit gained. Must be the most expensive prof. liability insurance in the world. What I WOULD like to know is why I haven't got a ballot form yet??
Maybe Merv is filling it in for me.

[exeng]

Thanks Airage

I've put my comments there.


Regards
Exeng

[Hand Solo]

Well thats easy Visual. Just go to www.chrisdarke.com and you'll see that none of it is his fault, none of it! What a wonderful man!

[M.Mouse]

Airrage

Your arrogance is breathtaking. You have been criticised several times, on this thread and others, for your verbosity. You do not have the humility to actually stop and think that, maybe, you could express yourself a little more concisely.

It is not the length of your postings but the fact that what you say could be said with 80% fewer words, hence the points you are making are lost, if indeed people bother to wade through your rather poor prose at all.

[beaver eager]

I'd be keen to know whether CD's website had been financed with BALPA funds (i.e. Members' money), I'd be amazed if it hasn't...

Which would then leave me pondering the question of where JF's BALPA sponsored website is?

Oh! I nearly forgot, BALPA don't actually seem (to me, at least) to want fairness in this issue, do they?

[Big Tudor]

Consistent improvements in pay, terms and conditions right across the companies.

Well, that's what the man says. Can you all associate with that comment gents???????

[unwiseowl]

beaver eager - if you bother to read Darkes web site, and I think we owe him that, you'll see that he paid for it himself.

[squeaker]

On £85k, I think he can afford it!

[Boeingman]

Frohnsdorff earns quite a bit more than Darke so I suppose we'll all be seeing his site soon. :)

[Notso Fantastic]

Ah Mr. Boeingman, but what screw do you think CD gets ON TOP of his BALPA income for his duties in the Competition Commission? We evidently have a part time GS for a 'full time' job. Meanwhile, BALPA finances are a disaster area- it is his job to take command of them.

[barcode]

CD looks too much like Branson for my liking; enough reason in itself (if any were needed) to vote for the other guy.

[Father Charles Pawnee]

The web site of the Darke side has been paid for by all BALPA members, for ten years we have let the dark side prosper. This is our chance to get rid.

Personally, I have been a rep for 3 years and have seen the guy only once and even then it was a very brief appearance. It is a time for change, the association is not thriving as some would have you believe and there has been no leadership that I can see, only an increase in membership, could this be linked somehow to the increase in professional pilots? Beats me but I am sure it has something to do with it, not the tireless efforts of the current general secretary.

If you are a member, you have your ballot paper, fill it in and post it back, you dont even have to buy a stamp. If you do nothing you have no right to complain at the evenyual outcome.

Nuff said.....:eek:

[foggy duck]

Notso Fantastic >>>

Would you mind expanding on the "competition commission" bit please.

Still undecided.

[Notso Fantastic]

Doggy- take a look for yourself. The former Monopolies & Mergers Commission is now called the Competition Commission. It is one of those 'Quangos' staffed by Government appointees as favours, all paid for by the taxpayer. Take a look:
http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/

If you do a search for 'Darke', you will find that one of the advisers is our very own Chris Darke. Great, but I thought we had a full time union official looking after OUR interests! As a result, like never before, British Pilots standards of living have collapsed whilst BALPA has been in some sort of trance.

[foggy duck]

Notso Fantastic>>>

Gobsmacked isn't the word !!!

He's taken quite a keen interest in the supply of raw cows milk !!!

http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/review/cc2000.pdf

page 19 if you're interested.

[XFO1-11]

Notso,

So CD has been working for someone else. Stikes me that with the state of UK pilot salaries we could have used a bit more of his time.

How long has he been doing it?

Regards,
XFO1-11

[Notso Fantastic]

XFO- take a look at Doggy's reference above, and go to page 18. He delved deeper than I did. HAs he really been poncing about with Cow's milk while we have been batted out of existence by the Employers? Have you noticed that this is not mentioned on the web site he has created (I do hope THAT was not with our money!).

I'm afraid unless John wins the election and we end up with someone we can trust to work for us on our behalf and not tool around with Cows milk or whatever nice little earner the Quangos give him, then I will be out of BALPA quick as a flash!

[Captain Jumbo]

You really could not write a script like this. Sooner we get to vote the better, and recruit someone who will actually fulfill the job description.

:(

[pipistrelle]

When whoever takes office does - hopefully new blood, and not someone who seems to be as much interested in milk as pilots they will have my fullest support (and that of many others I suspect) if they can safeguard my job and better my career prospects. In the few years I have been in Balpa I have seen a continual erosion of our profession almost completely unopposed by our unoin, the biggest gripe being that of the employment of foreign pilots - just listen out and play 'spot the Brit' next flt. Under the present regime I have helped pay Mr Darke's very comfortable salary whilst staring at redundancy, mine not his!! Balpa being curiously quiet on the topic, we do not hear much of lobbying of MP's and ministers to prevent the events of the last few months. Again my own gripe if we the BRITISH part of Balpa were better represented then this continuing influx of foreign pilots was stopped, or cut down to a reasonable trickle to be employed only when the labour pool of pilots in the UK dried up then I am sure we would be more secure. I would like to add that I have no grudge against the overseas guys many of them are my friends but that wont help one iota when I have to go looking for a job. So based on that I along with many others will be seeking a change at the next election it cannot make my situation any worse.

[Cornflake]

Yup. Bang on. Even President His Toniness doesn't try and get re-elected on the strength of his 'success' in sorting out problems in Sierra Leone, he has to show his constituents that he has actively helped their lives, or at least has some proposition for doing so.
Any politician displaying ten years of sliding living standards while enhancing the position of his own nose in the trough is usually ejected a lot more quickly than Mr. Darke. Mind you, even His Toniness wouldn't try and slip in a General Election un-noticed, accompanied by an election broadcast from John Prescott telling us all what good guys they are. Nor would he get away with using public funds for his own propaganda, or his legal fees.

I only hope and pray that the sentiment displayed here is, in fact a reflection of what our members think at large. I wholeheartedly agree with the case for BA being the UK benchmark. I can tell you first hand that their remuneration, or lack of, was used by our lot (BRAL) in the days before we were bought over as an excuse for our own paltry payrises. Now we are part of BA, what do we get? Again, comparisons with BA basic rates. Unless you are upwards of pay point 20, you would have to rely on allowances to boost your salary above ours (now BACE), and this too is commonly used by our management to keep us down.

John has my vote.

[next in line]

XFO1-11

Thanks for posting MRs comments - looks like my source was not fully in the picture. With respect to MRs last para starting <<Really - in which case one assumes you must be a rep>> - never make asumptions; I am advised that one of your own team - a 777 rep - was the original source .

[Dan Winterland]

I was once told that when BALPA was originally formed, all they wanted for their members was:

1. The pay the public thought they got.

2. The time off their neighbours thought they got.

3. The sex down route their wives thought they got.

I propose to stand for election with this manifesto!

Vote for me!

[XFO1-11]

Dan Winterland,

You know, after some thought; I think I would!

Regards,
XFO1-11

P.S. Please don’t tell the wife!

[Notso Fantastic]

Does anybody have any leads to CD's SODs (Significant Other Demands)? I understand that he is not at the BALPA offices for a significant amount of time. We have unearthed his SOI's (Significant Other Interests) in relation to the Competition Commission, which, funnily enough do NOT get a mention in his manifesto www.chrisdarke.com, strange that- I mean if we want to learn about THE MAN and who he is, surely these sort of extraneous activities and skills should have been at least hinted at?. As a BALPA member, I would like to know the extent of my General Secretary's other duties for other organisations whilst he is allegedly pulling in a full time income from our subscriptions and supposedly pulling as hard as he can for our interests. My vote went to John Frohnsdorff. Knowing the man and his record, I know he is someone we can trust. It is the only way we will achieve anything- it's not hard to notice we have gotten nowhere in the last 10 years (funnily enough- the same time that CD has held the reins)!

[BOAC]

I very much hope we can persuade JF to come to this forum and answer any questions you may have.

Would there be any interest in this?

[Diesel]

Would be an excellent idea - however that said I've already voted for him!

[crusin level]

CD you are the weakest link..........GOODBYE

[buttonmonkey]

I must admit that although I have been well informed about the G.S. election taking place, I had no clue as to the politics going on behind it. In our company we have been very fortunate and have faired better than most in the wake of Sept 11th. However this amounts to capitulation in comparison the pay and conditions achieved by the unions in the US for their members. I do advocate a happy medium, not to kill the goose that layed the golden egg ect, but it is time that we had somebody to make managements sit up and take notice not sit back and laugh.

[beaver eager]

Well said buttonmonkey,

A voice of reason, and you've hit the nail smack on the head.

A recent consultation with a private Consultant Doctor was billed to me at £120.00 for about 30 minutes of his time. This was not overtime, just his regular fee.

Before all you wannabees out there start flaming me, I realise that I'm very lucky to be able to sell a whole day off to my company for about £430.00 as a Multi Jet Captain (not that I ever want to), but it pales into insignificance when compared to the £240.00 per hour quoted above. I offer this as an example of just how far our profession is lagging behind others of comparable responsibility.

I too don't wish to see my Company struggling but neither do I want to see managers and shareholders profiting at the continued expense of our profession's Ts & Cs. Without doubt the last 10 years have been the worst for pilots' Ts & Cs in history and it's time to stop the rot. "Partnership Approaches" only work when both sides are prepared to be flexible and reasonable. There is a time when you just have to say "enough is enough".

Bring on the new.

[knows]

eager beaver .... good post - absolutely !

[Nigel Nearly]

VERY good post, beaver old lad, right on!!!!!

[chippy63]

Beaver eager,

Fair point about the quack, but remember that he has to run his business out of that £240/hour- premises, nurses, equipment, council taxes, insurance etc. That is his gross revenue figure, not his net. I'm sure that the net is pretty handsome, but it's certainly not £240 x number of hours worked.

[beaver eager]

I agree entirely that the net will not be £240 x number of hours worked but I'm not entirely sure that he will pay for everything out of that. Maybe he rents the space from the hospitals concerned, but in the world of private medicine the patient (or his/her insurer) in invoiced for everything else like nursing, accomodation, drugs etc.

And anyway... Doesn't everyone pay council tax and insurance (aren't BALPA subs partly insurance?)?

But let's not debate the wrong issue here, we are agreed that even netted down, he's on a good screw. If half of that is lost in business operating costs, that leaves £4200 before income tax per week for a 35 hour week. My gross basic was £4400 before income tax last month plus about £300 in tax free allowances.

Just over a quarter of his estimated net wage for what I consider a comparable level of responsibility. Not to mention the time away from home and the anti-social hours. We are definitely lagging behind.

Edited to ask how much bank chairmen get?

[Big Tudor]

Saw a report on Beeb (so must be true) that the two big bosses at HBOS stand to pick up 7million pounds each over three years. As an aside, my solicitor has just done some work for me at 160 quid per hour. Six and a half grand a week! Nice work if you can get it. Now, is Flying Lawyer a pilot who likes law work or a lawyer who likes flying??????

[dallas dude]

Minor point I realise but CD's website lists BALPA as the second biggest pilot union in the World.

This may come as some surprise to the 13,600 pilots of American Airlines, who are represented by the Allied Pilots Association.

ALPA, the world's largest represents some 64,000 pilots.

APA only represents AA so maybe CD meant to say "The world's second largest non independant pilot union"?

It's all in the details.

Cheers,

[chippy63]

Beaver eager,

Noted your comments, and yes, the quack is by no means on the breadline; I was just pointing out that his revenue line is not his net earnings.

As for your question on bankers' pay, we are humble folk, toiling day and night in often straitened circumstances, to bring financial rectitude to developing countries which yearn for it. I am sure that a true gent, such as your goodself, would not begrudge me my modest crust.

Best regards:p :D

[peeteechase]

The way I see it, if CD is jousted he can always apply for his old job back. May the best person win!
ATB

[airrage]

The sad thing is that you don't even have to focus only on "professional" jobs to see how much our pay has drifted due south.

- Black Cab drivers on average file revenue at £60,000/year on their self-assessment tax forms. (how much do they really make ? probably more like £90,000). No weekends or nights for the majority of them.
- A strip club waitress was awarded damages of £60,000 for being forced from her job early this year. The amount was based on £5000/month for 1 years lost wages.
- London train drivers starting at £33,000, Eurorail £43,000.

Of professionals,
- A newly graduate lawyer getting a job with a major firm(say a BA-type equivalent for pilots) starts at £100,000/year.

Unfortuantely too many pilots enjoy the job too much to realise that we are in fact under-paid. It's not a crime to enjoy your job and get paid for it !

It all boils done to whether you accept airline pseudo management that thinks modern day pilots are less skilled these days as a result of advanced aircraft computerisation (modern bus drivers). They like to ignore the fact that we have a £1 billion worth of litigation at our hands every day we go flying if we get it wrong through neglect or unprofessionalism. It's time we reminded them that our salaries do not reflect the level of responsibility or the life-disruption's we suffer from being away 2/3rd of our life.

[Big Kahuna Burger]

Well said airrage.

Its becoming quite pitifull when you look at it like that !

This is why we need someone at the helm of BALPA who is prepared to stop this terminal slide of our T & C's. Someone who is not TOTALLY obsessed about the size of the membership. Someone who will take a leaf out of some of the US unions books and make the management take the union seriously.

[man u]

Big Kahuna Burger

<<This is why we need someone at the helm of BALPA who is prepared to stop this terminal slide of our T & C's. >>

Kindly explain how any GS is going to make pilots actually go on strike - the only way that T&Cs will be markedly improved.

[XFO1-11]

man u,

I think it is quite reasonable for BKB to expect leadership and direction from the GS.

You seem to imply that the GS is responsible for nothing; in which case why do we need one at all? Think of all the money we could save!

Regards,
XFO1-11

[The Zombie]

airrage....you're the man.......well said !!!!!!

Lets get the message across now, it is almost too late.

......zzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Magplug]

Methinks Man U doth protest too much..............

[Norfolk in breaks]

There have been a number of references to "The Log" in this thread. Can I correct a number of misapprehensions?
1) CD does not have exclusive access to The Log. The truth is that extracting copy from him for each issue is like pulling teeth.
2) If JF or anyone else has heartfelt points to make, write in with something to be published under the "sideways look" heading. If it is well written, relevant and not libellous, it will stand a good chance of being published. Otherwise, try the letters page. It is highly unusual not to publish anything here.
3) As to the criticism about the publication being all about BA nigels' travel experiences, we can only publish what people submit. We would dearly love to be in the position of having a vast range of interesting and exciting articles to chose from. If your interests and views are not represented, how about representing them yourself? I look forward to the flood of post at New Road.

[XFO1-11]

Norfolk in breaks,

Give poor CD a break will you; the poor chap is probably too busy with his other job to want to write in Log as well.

You expect too much!

Regards,
XFO1-11

[Carnage Matey!]

1) But he does have exclusive access to his column on page 3 (or whatever it is). I bet he's a lot keener to produce something these days.

2) If JF has points to make why should they be published under the "sideways look" heading, buried away so deep within the magazine that most readers are in a deep coma before they ever reach there. Why not give him a section parallel to CDs propaganda piece? Why even try the letters page when there seems to be a slightly dubious editorial policy in place, as recent letters re BA seniority suggest.

3) If there really is such a dearth of interesting articles then why not just reduce the size of The Log and save our money, instead of padding it out with articles on old Comet adventures and BIZARRE letters from retired trolley dollies complaining about car adverts!

[Hot Wings]

Carnage Matey - I entirely agree with your third point. Well said!

Is there any difference between the elections at BALPA and FIFA?!

[flappless]

I see that JF and his merry men have taken to exploiting and abusing the BALPA internal e-mail listings given to BA and Non BA Reps - here is the latest classic to appear.... from someone called Graham Cathcart, whoever he is !

Good Gentlefolk
IT IS TIME TO PUT OUR HOUSE IN ORDER! CHRIS DARK MUST PUT
UP OR SHUT UP!
WE ANSWER TO THE CAA FOR OUR JOBS.................LET HIM
ANSWER TO US
HE NEED ONLY FEAR THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS IF HE HAS
NEGLECTED HIS JOB
Which, in my opinion, he seems to have done.
I have only been active as a rep in Balpa since last
December. I was roused from my usual apathy by what I perceived as a weak
union. Over the years I have seen the pay, conditions and status of OUR
PROFESSION WITHER AND DIE LIKE A NEGLECTED GARDEN.
I belong to a UNION (it is nothing more, and nothing less
than that).... that WE PAY FOR!!!!!!
I DO NOT FEEL THAT I AM GETTING GOOD VALUE FOR MY MONEY.
and there is only ONE MAN TO BLAME... the man who runs it.
Since SEPTEMBER I have not seen or heard nor recieved any
comunication from someone called CHRIS DARKE. In these troubled times I
think that is shocking. I have been in New Road on numerous occassions and
Mr. Darke has been conspicuous by his absence.
Suddenly I, like you, am being bombarded with e-mails
telling what a sterling job IFALPA AND EVERYONE ELSE IS DOING. I still dont
see what Darke is doing other than seeming to be GRABBING THEIR COAT TAILS
in an effort to look good and BASK IN THEIR GLORY. If I was a truly cynical
man I would think this was electioneering by stealth, and extremely
despicable if it was.

I DO NOT WANT A UNION DOMINATED BY BA.

I WANT A STRONG UNION SERVED BY A STRONG AND EFFECTIVE
GENERAL SECRETARY.

I BELIEVE THAT WE CAN FIND ONE ........BUT ONLY WHEN THE
JOB IS VACANT.

SUPPORT DEMOCRACY......DEMAND ACTION......ABOVE ALL ELSE

VOTE FOR CHANGE

VOTE FOR FROHNSDORFF


THANK YOU for reading this far, and my apologies for spamming. I feel very
strongly about this and what I perceive as an attempt to pervert and
smother the democratic process.

regards
Graham Cathcart

p.s. If Chris Darke had not SPAMMED ME I would not have your e-mail
address, if he can use it.......Then, in a free and open union..so can you
and I.

I sense a certain desparation here -all those who vote for JF - beware !!!!!

flappless

[John Frohnsdorff]

Flapless,

I think you will find, should you actually do any research prior to posting, that this particular gentlemen has nothing to do with my election team. He is however rightly annoyed at the spamming that is now taking place by our GS using the BALPA email service to all reps.

Where I disagree with his email is that he resorted to spamming himself to propagate his objection. It would be nice however if he and the rest of the reps were not subjected to this unusual activity by the GS. I suppose the only succour I can provide to the poor chap is that the present level of GS spamming will probably cease after the elections are over, one way or other!

I also sense desperation; but please be assured it is not from me.

Regards,
John

[M.Mouse]

I believe Mervyn Granshaw started the abuse of BALPA reources.

[flappless]

John,

You need to take some of your own advice - at least read the posting I made last night. Nowhere do I suggest that this person is part of your team. His e-mail is spam, CD's are not as he is entitled to communicate via these lists if he so pleases, afterall he is the GS of BALPA. My questions to you - since you failed to answer them when asked before are - why are you not standing down from the NEC to challenge CD for the post of GS? Why are you prepared to see the good name of the association be dragged through the mud - worldwide on this message board? How are you able to justify the cost to the association of two elections?

As I have said before, I have no problem with your challenge to CD but at least have the decency to step down from the NEC first.

You need to take a reality check and stop riding on the political ego's of those who you think support you.

flappless

[WeeWillyWinky]

I do not have a political ego, I support JF and your post is typical of the arrogance apparent in the upper echelons of the club known as BALPA management.

I was on the point of leaving BALPA due to the complete and utter contempt with which many of us have been treated.

Why should JF resign from the NEC? All power to him for standing for election and facing the barrage of propaganda and underhand tactics eminating from BALPA HQ.

He is standing to unseat CD, I really don't care what it costs because it is necessary.

If JF loses and CD and company do not heed the wake-up call then BALPA will shortly find itself a few thousand members poorer.

I do not wish to see that happen but that is the reality of the situation.

Whoever wins much must change not least the condescending and arrogant attitude from on high.

Your posting gives me little hope.

[exeng]

Flapless,

Why should John have to stand down from the NEC in order to stand for election as Gen Sec?

A bit of an odd statement from you here. <<You need to take a reality check and stop riding on the political ego's of those who you think support you.>> Look in the mirror my friend.:rolleyes:


Regards
Exeng

[beaver eager]

flapless,

I see that JF and his merry men have taken to exploiting and abusing the BALPA internal e-mail listings

Well... If the above isn't suggesting that this person is part of your teamthen my knowledge of the intricacies of the english language is sadly lacking.

As for your point about the cost of two elections... If you had been reading the Q & A thread (Click here to view Q & A thread) (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52890) you would know that there is simply no other way to oust the current incumbent.

We either have two elections or just continue with CD.

[John Frohnsdorff]

flapless,

You did suggest Graham Cathcart was part of my team and you where wrong.

CD can indeed communicate via official BALPA email lists if he so pleases; it is strange however that he chose not to do so until late. One might be forgiven for thinking it has something to do with the election!

There is nothing wrong with standing for election and being an NEC member; the rules are quite clear on the subject. Indeed having an election is what every democratic society does on a regular basis. I find it odd that you have an objection to members having a say in the running of their own union.

I do not have access to BALPA email lists, access to a column in log or the ability to spend £2500 of BALPA money sending out each postal missive from the NEC chairman. I do what I can to communicate with the members and I make myself available to answer questions on PPruNe. It may not be as grand as the array of communication techniques available to CD but I am doing my best!

Regards,
John

[flappless]

John,

Quote
"CD can indeed communicate via official BALPA email lists if he so pleases; it is strange however that he chose not to do so until late. One might be forgiven for thinking it has something to do with the election!
Unquote

I guess that means he is NOT spamming when he uses the internal e-mailing lists as he is entitled to do so. Mr Cathcart is because he isn't! On re-reading my original post I accept that I suggested he was one of 'your team' - what I meant was that he was one of your supporters. I guess that makes him a fan of yours rather than a team member - fair enough. Frankly if CD has decided to suddenly see the light, as a result of this election, to start communicating more then thats fine by me.

I liken you to an MP who has decided to change the party which he represents without resigning and going to the ballot box. That is why you should have planned ahead and stepped down from the NEC and then launched your campaign to remove CD. It would have been an 'honourable' thing to do although there is clearly little honour here !

You and your supporters are being rather selective in the questions you are choosing to answer. If you look at your manifestos you will see that no other CC's apart from BA's are supporting you. WHY IS THAT ? It is a simple question. Why is it that everyone else is wrong ? No doubt you will answer that the other CC's did not ask their members but I am sure they have a pretty good idea of what their members would want and what is best for BALPA and themselves.

So, to recap,
a) Why is it that NO other CC decided to support you ?
b) Jusify the cost of two elections from the subscriptions of all the members.
c) Give us your feelings about the impact of the bad press which has been generated by using this medium for your election campaign. There have been thousands of 'hits' on this thread. If I lived abroad I would wonder what on earth was going on at BALPA.

Keep it simple and just answer the questions.

[Hand Solo]

a) Which CCs supported JF is totally irrelevant to the election, unless you are trying to forge a BA/non-BA split in the union. The fact is that JF secured sufficient support from BALPA members (represented by their company councils) to stand against CD. Would you have dismissed his support if it had come from say the Britannia and Air UK CCs?

b) What price democracy? Nobody wants to see CD rubber-stamped into another 5 year term just because its the cheapest thing to do. Another 5 year term for CD will cost us all nearly £500,000 in his wages. Significantly more than the cost of two elections.

c) What bad press? This is the only forum available for active debate on the subject of a new General Secretary. Would you rather we had the 2 page document sent with our ballot papers and nothing more? I haven't seen CD round these parts campaigning lately, but then as I only work at one of the UKs busiest airports I can hardly expect that, can I?

Flapless you really should give up on your blatantly biased moaning on this thread. We can all see what you're trying to do, and irrespective of peoples preferences, you are convincing no-one with your half-baked conspiracy theories and baseless arguments. Either add something of substance to the debate or stop wasting our time.

[Fuzzy112]

Hand Solo,

I think flappless makes some good points (as do you!). This thread seems to have turned into a bit of a back slapping excersise for JF. It is important that someone is prepared to look at the flip side - may the best man win !

[olympus]

You may be interested to know that within the KLMuk membership (one of the CCs that nominated CD), there is considerable unhappiness with the fact that this nomination was made without reference to the membership. I suspect that the membership in other companies which nominated CD also were not consulted.

[exeng]

Olympus,

I suspect that is the case with most CC's. Although it is both reasonable and expected that our elected reps deal with the day to day issues without reference to the membership at large, surely on an issue as important as this the little people are entitled to a say.

I'm very pleased that JF has made a stand. We can now expect a fair and democratic process to take place. That is all I ask for.


Regards
Exeng

[XFO1-11]

Fuzzy112,

I understand what you are saying; but the problem is that flapless could find the answers to his questions already on the Q&A thread. He just can't be bothered! I think that is why some PPruNe members feel he is being repetitive and does not have a genuine point.

Regards,
XFO1-11


flapless,

From what I have gleaned from the Q&A it seems quite clear the following answers are to be had.

a) Why is it that NO other CC decided to support you ?

You will find that not all BALPA CC's are listed in CD's manifesto endorsement. For example Monarch and British Midland are not listed. So to say that no other CC's supported JF is not technically accurate; what is certain is that they didn't support CD on his manifesto and he did list everyone he could!

b) Jusify the cost of two elections from the subscriptions of all the members.

There does not have to be two elections unless the second one is contested. I certainly like a choice but to state that there has to be a second election is inaccurate. If there is one then fine by me, worth every penny to find a good GS!

c) Give us your feelings about the impact of the bad press which has been generated by using this medium for your election campaign. There have been thousands of 'hits' on this thread. If I lived abroad I would wonder what on earth was going on at BALPA.

Having an election in a democracy is not "bad press" it is the right thing to do. I personally like being able to change governments if I, and the rest of the country, choose every five years. Why should the GS of BALPA be above it? I really would not bother about the perspective of those living abroad when you clearly already live on a different planet!

Now go read the Q&A and think up a genuine question!

XFO1-11

[sloth]

w.w.w:

"If JF loses and CD and company do not heed the wake-up call then BALPA will shortly find itself a few thousand members poorer"

Please.

Is that a version of ".. if I don't get my way, I'll throw all my toys out of the cot..."?

[Hand Solo]

No I think its more like "This cot is full of cack, it stinks and its of no benefit to me to stay in it. Unless someone changes the sheets, clears the air and makes it beneficial for me to stay I'm gonna move to a new cot and take my child benefit with it."

[Bucking Bronco]

How can our membership be so high and our finances in such a state. I've been a member of BALPA for 4 years and only once had the accounts sent to me (couple of years ago), the missus at the time (chartered accountant) tore it to shreds saying that there wasn't enough explanation for dramatic increases in expenditure in certain areas.

I know this sounds a bit vague, but to be honest I tended to switch off when she spoke.

Anyway when will the result be declared?

[airrage]

I've voted for many Elections in BALPA before, doesn't anyone else think it stinks that for the first time BALPA felt it necessary to even include a list who nominated which candidates ? I don't remember ever seeing this info before, correct me if I am mistaken.

Surely it couldn't be to try and influence yet again the results of what to date has been a Democratic circus. How many votes will now be cast like this, "Gee, I don't know either of these guys but if my CC rep thinks Chris D is the man then that's who I'm going to vote for."

If they run an Election this badly, how confident are members here that BALPA HQ are professional enough to run a legal Indutrial Action, where the guidlines are much more complex and STRICTLY enforced, not by in-house lawyers from the same side.

We don't know the answer to the above question(Industrial Action)because miraculously we have never seen BALPA tested in this area. However, we do know that despite having 95% balloted support in recent history they are very good at conceding without a fight.

[146LUKE]

I still have not recieved any info' from Balpa about the vote!

[M.Mouse]

Anybody know when the result will be published?

[Notso Fantastic]

Expected today. I was due to be notified as soon as published. Nothing heard at 1800

[NigelOnDraft]

<<Chris Darke to be re-elected!!! >>

Guess not then..!!!

NoD

[Gin Slinger]

Right, who voted after the result was known to move this thread up?

Time for a padlock!