ICAO ATPL conversion to JAR ATPL

[fsrmg1]

Hello,

I'm considering converting my Australian and/or USA ATPL to a JAR-FCL ATPL. I would like to do this conversion over as short a period of time, with the least amount of red tape and not breaking the bank on top of it. I’m US, but my wife’s EU so either continent will work well for me. I do feel that we’ll end up settling down in Europe though.

Does anybody know of any good schools that are able to do this conversion? I’ve written a number of big name brand schools in the States, but have yet to hear back from one of them! I’ve also contacted a couple schools in the UK, but they want way too much $$$ and time… I’d also prefer not to have to start a course designed for PPL level students.

Are there any recommendations out there?

Thanks,

Rich
[email protected]

[Alex Whittingham]

Have you sorted out what you need to do to convert? It depends on your experience. It could be just as much as someone starting from scratch or as little as two exam papers and a check ride.

How many hours do you have:

1. In total?
2. On aircraft of more than 30 tonnes AUM?
3. As PIC of aircraft of more than 30 tonnes AUM?
4. As either P1 or P2 in aircraft certified with two pilots?

[fsrmg1]

Hello,

Thanks for the reply. I have the following hours breakdown;

5900 TT
3800 Time since ATPL gained
No time an AC over 30 tonnes
800 Multi crew in DHC6 and SA226/227

I do have substantial time flying C208 single pilot, but I believe that it is certified multi crew in Europe.

Where would this put me?

Cheers,

Rich

[redsnail]

This topic has been covered before.
The C208 isn't considered a MPA (multi pilot aeroplane) in the UK.
You'll need to do the medical at Gatwick.
The 14 exams, go to Bristol Ground School to do them in the shortest time. Note, you'll have to really work bloody hard to do it.
Flying? To appease the CAA you'll have to get a letter from your company stating that the time in the Twotter and the Metro was done under 2 crew ops and because of national law. (eg CAO 82.3) That should cover you for the MCC.

So you have 2 choices. 1. Do a type rating on a JAR 25 MPA aircraft and go straight to an ATPL. Looking at ~£10-20K plus CAA fees.
(Cost depends on the type)

2. Do the abbreviated IR with CPL. ~15 hours or so. This will give you a CPL/IR.

Aircraft category. JAR 25 MPA etc. See JAR-FCL 1 (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html)
Conversion and the UK CAA's verdict LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/document.asp) Esp Section G.

Note, these are rather large PDF's so I would save them to your computer and peruse at your leisure/peril. :D

[skyman68]

"work bloody hard for the 14 written".

the JAA ATPl was a joke. I did it with bristol and I passed all exams first attempt with minimum fuss.

[BritishGuy]

Just a quick question skyman....what was your background/experience when you studied for you ATPL exams? Just curious.

[skyman68]

my background was CFI in the USA and part 135 pilot(taxi and corporate flight) like many of us.
I have not found the ATP very hard with Bristol. Bristol is probably the best ATP school in the world.

[510orbust]

call the caa about the waiver for the ground school with your time first off. Then order the ground school and do self study, two best are bristol or oxford. After the exams are complete 5 hours commercial pilot conversion then the IR conversion.

PS>>> the exams are not that bad dont listen to the guys making a mountain out of a mole hill....

[skyman68]

about the CPL and IR conversion in UK:


5 hours is the minimum for the CPL conversion . the average is 15 hours.I have seen guys passing the cpl with between14-20 hours.

5-10 hours is the minimum for the IR conversion. Average is 25-40 hours (sim and plane).I have seen guys passing the IR with 27 or 40h.

I give you a good advice, multiply by 2 or 3 the cost the school give you. Do not believe schools when they tell you that you need 5 hours. in 5 hours, you can not cover the requirement for the JAR license.

the JAA system is once again a big lie.
it has costed me 4000 pounds for the CPL (convesion), and 9000-10000 pounds for the IR, ad 1500 pounds for the exams. and count 2-3 months for Bed and breakfast

[fsrmg1]

Thanks for the help everybody.

It looks as if I don't have enouph multi crew time to gain an exemption from the 14 exams... Bummer!!!

I'll just have to fork the $$$ out and get them out of the way. I also think that I'll go ahead and do my check flight in a multi crew aircraft so I can get an ATPL right off. I could do it in a familiar type such as the SA226/227 or something new.

Any suggestions?

[redsnail]

Sorry to say but the Metro doesn't count for a MPA type rating. Ref JAR-FCl Section 1 Appendix to JAR-FCL 1.220 (page 90).

The cheapest MPA is a Shorts 330/360 conversion. That's what I did but I don't really recommend it. It took ~6 months or so with a lot of running around to get it done. I ended up paying £10,000 plus CAA fees for it. You may be better off looking at the ATR, Dash 8 or the 737/A320 type rating to do the conversion. You'll need to read the TRTO list (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF)

[fsrmg1]

Thanks again Redsnail,

This conversion is starting to look bigger than Ben Hur, at least in time and cost… I guess that I’ll just have to swallow hard, dig deep and get it done with.

If I fork out the time and money for a type, I’m going to need some investment return at the end of it as soon as possible. So, as far as turbo prop and jet types go, which ones are in healthier job demand these days in the UK/EU? Also, do you have any recommendations as to where to get this training?

Thanks,

Rich

[redsnail]

Ahhh, now there's the £50 million question...
About 12 months ago it would have been easy. "737". Now? lots of folks running around with bare ratings. Maybe the A320? who knows at this stage.
ATR's? I know there are some operators that will train "outside" folk but whether or not they are familiar with what is required for a lic conversion is another thing. Likewise with Dash 8.
There aren't too many Shed operators around now.

The pay for rating job is getting more common here unfortunately. Therefore you do run the risk of "paying twice". Eg easyJet won't consider a type rating aquired from another TRTO unless you have +300 hours on that type. (Known as a TRSS). You might think, "bewdy, I'll get a job and I'll just pay for the CAA". Nope, they won't look at you. This applies to other operators too.

To get a feel for the market check out PPJN (http://www.ppjn.com)

[fsrmg1]

What’s going on here?

I’ve been in contact with a couple of training organizations and have been told that before I can start my conversion, I have to get approval from their respective CAAs. These CAAs have told me that I’m not able to start until I provide them with a letter from my current employer who is a national operator within that countries CAA. This creates a catch 22 syndrome. How do I get the job without the qualifications and how do I get the qualifications without the job???

All I can think is that these countries have recipical agreements with the USA. Since the USA requires letters from the employer for advanced training, they require the same from potential USA customers… Is the UK or Spain under this same policy?

Now what? Looks like more politics and red tape to cut through along with the level of difficulty increasing…

[Sheep Guts]

I would have to say it scares me just the thought of doing the JAA ATPL Conversion hence Im not doing it. The UK is great for Fish n Chips and sauce. Thats why I go there...:D

You would really need to be signed sealed and delivered for a job for me to attempt it. No matter how smart you are "Skyman68"

Im in the same boat as you
Fsrmg1

5300TT
2800 Multi Turbine Command of which
600 in Multi-Crew Otter
2200 B90 King Air
3500 Total Multi Command

ahwell.................................


Sheep

[Need4Speed23]

Hey fsrmg1,

I have a very similar aviation background to yours, and my wife is European.

Here is something to think hard about. Most airlines here want you to hold a EU passport. This is something that has thrown me off, cause when I moved here a year ago I thought my work permit authorization would be enough. But when you get into the hiring process and application forms the big question is - do you hold an EU paasport.
It takes about 2-3 years to get a British passport, if like me you are newly married. The law here though has a fast-track route if you have been married for more than 3-4 years. I strongly recomend getting your EU passport ASAP, if you consider moving here.


Good Luck

[fsrmg1]

Thanks for that bit of info... My wife's home country is saying 5 years as a permanent resident first, and then I have to renounce my US citizenship!

It might be easier in the UK I see... That might be an option.

Cheers