To the unknown helicopter pilot...

[Miles_JAN]

To the pilot of the Robinson R22, registration G-SBUT, who was flying around Colsterworth roundabout (A1/A151). Thank you for dropping into the field that I landed the glider in (JAN, White glider with red nose, rudder and red/white ailerons). I was fine, there was no damage caused to the glider, the only injury was my sense of humour (Which was rapidly restored when 2 police cars, 3 fire tenders and 7 ambulances turned up 10 minutes later following a report that an aircraft had crash landed in a field on the A1 with 7 PAX...I know the landing was bit ropey, but it's only a singe seater for chrissakes!). The concern was most appreciated. Good example of people looking out for each other (And proof that helicopters aren't that bad after all ;->).

Oh yea, and the Military Asreolhe in a bright yellow firefly about 10mi north of Colsterworth. Open your eyes...and don't carve gliders up when they're thermalling.

Miles.

[Aussie Andy]

Goto G-INFO at http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/aircraft_register/ginfo/search.asp and enter the registration of the helicopter and you will see the address of the owner.

Shame you didn't get the other guy's reg...!

Andy

[[email protected]]

Miles-jan - in common with many glider pilots you appear to think you are the only one with a right to be in the air - it is not your thermal or your sky. The guy in the firefly was almost certainly a student, either dual or solo and possibly under pressure from his QFI at the time. You on the other hand were out pleasure flying. Gliders are bloody difficult to see and you and other glider pilots should be well enough aware of that by now.
I hope you don't object to people reporting your landing as a crash - it might save a life one day when there really is a crash.

[md 600 driver]

miles jan
are you being sarcastic or thanking the helicopter pilot ,i could not work out what you are saying .

[astir 8]

Dear crab

glad to see your opinion that

a) If you are only flying for fun, you have no right to be in the sky

b) That being under pressure from an instructor (who would therefore also have been failing to to keep a lookout) or being an early solo pilot absolves you from keeping a good lookout/and or observing the basic rules of the air.




If you don't see gliders turning in a thermal, you'll never see any aircraft flying straight & level.

So in future could you please put up a PPRUNE post whenever you are going to fly, and I'll stay on the ground for that period

[ShyTorque]

Sorry to see that some of us have been on the angry pills again......here we go again with the "us and them" syndrome..:hmm:

I'll just take a short breath before writing to my MP again about compulsory mode C :E

[SilsoeSid]

What I still find amazing is that glider pilots are still happy to fly around in an aircraft that has better camouflage than any military aircraft on the planet.

Training aircraft and most civ aircraft are coloured to give other air users a fighting chance of seeing them, as well as looking quite nice. Even camouflaged military aircraft are visible when not low level. There was even a Home Office study to find the best conspicuity colours.

I notice that Miles' glider was "White glider with red nose, rudder and red/white ailerons."
The AAC gazelles in Canada have more flourescent colouring than that and you can still hide from a Battlegroup!

Transponders and strobes would be a start. Having had a few very close encounters of the glider kind 'ooop north', apart from the moment itself, the annoying thing is that on all my occasions, some under radar control, no trace of the glider was possible and no 'hands up call' was made. Airprox/Airmiss work both ways. (And yes they did see me, as they tired to take avoiding action.)

Annoying only because it seems to me that these glider pilots (NOT ALL) seem to think they are able to do as they please. Just an acknowledgement that it happened would be nice instead of running for home and hiding in the crewroom until dark.

I will give priority to sailplanes, IF I CAN SEE THEM!! :mad:

[Thomas coupling]

Crab: Careful, as you go buddy... they have priority over powered flight QED. You MUST see and avoid them.

HOWEVER, I do think they take the pi*s sometimes with that little bit of knowledge, in that they pursue these thermal areas with unlimited enthusiasm even if it means flying into busy areas. Coupled with that, they are very difficult to see because there is no thought given to their colour scheme regarding collision avoidance.
Finally, their general awareness in the air could be vastly improved if they spoke on the radio, once in a while (or even fitted one!).
We have numerous sites dotted around here, they talk to us from their ground radio, but once airborne - forget it. They have been known to soar here, up to 25000 feet without oxygen!!!!!

[Miles_JAN]

1. It was an attempt at sarcasm on the helicopter's part. Thanks to "Aussie_andy" I've been able to find an adress for the pilot. A letter of thanks will be in the post.

2. Sorry. The aircraft I was flying was 15m wing span (bigger than any other powered aircraft i've flown), and had bright red marks all over it. I find it hard to believe you can't see them (especially on the day in question when the vis was at least 20k).

3. I'm a power pilot too. I'm doing my PPL from Sheffield. I can still manage to juggle the (comparitavely) high cockpit work with maintaining a good lookout. So whats your excuse? There were 2 people on board, and they were both wearing bone domes. Coupled to the fact that it was a bright yellow firefly in the vicinity of Cranwell MATZ I can deduce it's a military firefly.

4. There have been some very interesting studies into aircraft conspicuity recently, carried out by both civilian and military organisations. Seen an air cadet 109 recently? in a head on situation covering the thing with dayglo stripes made no difference. Gliders don't carry batteries up to the job of powering a strobe, so the current thinking is to put silver speed tape-cum-tin foil marks on the control services. These glint in the sunlight and work very well.

5. 90% of gliders have radio's on board. We have our own frequencies (129.9, 129.975, 130.1 and 130.4 for cloud flying). It is well worth tuning in to one of them, especially on a good day when the world and his crew is in the air and your not listening to anyone else. And we're working on the transponders (Mode C for all...B******ks).

6. 25000ft witout oxygen? Okay, that's a bit OTT :D. BGA reccomendation is oxygen on, feeding and ready by 10000ft, and in use by 12000. And we're not allowed in the class B above FL245.

Why do I get the feeling the blue touch paper has just been lit?

Miles

[Eurochopper]

Just for the record, pilots/owners of modern gliders are prevented from painting their aircraft fancy colours because any colours other than white absorb too much heat and thus weaken the stucture. Thus only non-structural bits such as wingtips and rudders can be coloured. Does a strobe really make any difference on a sunny day (ie days when gliders are actually flying - I don't think so, or certainly not the type that could run from a battery.

Transponders - well possibly they're useful if you have TCAS. However I believe very few GA aircraft are so equipped. Once (if) EASA require all aircraft to be transponder equipped, there will be so much clutter that TCAS will probably overload and ATC will certainly turn off any general returns from traffic they are not actually controlling so that they can see some blank bits of their screens. There is also the matter of absence of generated power - how big a battery would be required to run the transponder and radio for eg an 8 hour flight?

Yes its true that gliders are very hard to see when flying straight, but once thermalling they present a huge profile (15 to 25 metres) to anyone approaching. There's no excuse not to see that. :8

As you may have guessed, I fly both rotary and engineless - but only the latter for fun!

[SilsoeSid]

Miles,

If you find it hard to believe that you can't be seen, start believing buddy. Read this http://millennium-debate.org/ind16july016.htm and then decide how big is big enough. If you can't see a glider plus tug aircraft how can you expect us to see a single glider?

It doesn't matter how many people are on board looking out, if a glider can't be seen you might as well have the whole Man Utd fanbase up there with you for what it's worth.

Point taken about head on, but thats the same for a Jumbo/Tornado or any craft. As for the reflective 'glint', OK for the initial awareness, but then you spend ages trying to find out where it came from. A lot of gliders are kept nicely polished and glint nicely, but aquiring them again is a 'mare.

It's alright having your own frequencies, but how does anyone else know when YOU are monitoring them. You say they are 'in cloud freqs', do you talk to anyone else while you are 'in cloud' or just other gliders?

You invited us all to tune in on your frequencies "especially on a good day when the world and his crew is in the air and your not listening to anyone else". You said they were 'in cloud frequencies', so how do we know on a good day if you'll be there?:confused:

Also, a lot of us tend to monitor frequencies listened to by the majority of other air users. Are you really always so far away from an ATCU, or do you all just like it being quiet?

From a 'powered users' view, I suggest Thomas Coupling is in the ideal spot to report, as he's sorrounded by the 'silent killers'.:suspect:

[[email protected]]

ASTIR 8
My point about pleasure flying is that the workload involved circling in a thermal is probably less than on a flying training sortie dealing with simulated emergencies/nav/RT etc. I have no problem with people flying for fun but when they start calling other pilots names because they weren't seen and weren't squawking or using local RT frequencies then I do object.

I have seen lots of aircraft in straight and level flight but have struggled to see gliders thermalling unless the sun glints off the canopy or the aspect of the glider is just right.

Miles - I don't ever find myself with no one to talk to - I will either have a RIS, RAS or at the very least a FIS so I know who is around me and where - unlike glider pilots who are clearly content to fly IMC (if that is what you mean by cloud flying) with no ATC service and no transponder.

Eurochopper - transponders on gliders would at least let ATC know where they are so avoiding action can be given to conflicting traffic.

We are mandated to avoid their launch sites by 2nm and 2000' and IF we see them in the air will always give way but don't assume that if you are in a glider with big wings that everyone can see you.

[rotorcraig]

Interested to read...We have our own frequencies (129.9, 129.975, 130.1 and 130.4 for cloud flying)... as I asked about this at my flying club recently, knowing that I would be routing near (but not too near ;) ) Husbands Bosworth and they couldn't remember the frequencies.

If my planned route will take me near known gliding activity, how do I know which of these frequencies to listen in on?

RC

[RoD Flow]

I am never going IMC agin if there are gliders 'cloud flying' on their own frequency without a Transponder.

Presumably they fly above TA, set 1013 and fly a quadrantal?

NO?.....VMC only for me then. Saves one Check ride a year if I don't need an IRT.

I'm not sure if ATC would turn off returns so they can see the blank bits around the aircraft their controlling. Surely the idea is see what is around the aircraft they are controlling, and try to make it miss them?

The bottom line - Gliders ARE hard to see, just because the boys (or girls) in the Firefly didn't see you , it doesn't make them bad people (or arseolhes), and just because you have priority in the air, that doesn't make you King.

Oh, and work on your landings, seems to me you only get one go!

[ShyTorque]

Please let's get away from the animosity, it really does no-one any good.

So far we have glider pilots, GA pilots, military instructors and helicopter pilots all putting in ten pennyworth. Having flown in all those capacities and a few others, including SAR helis and low level military jet fixed wing, now a corporate heli pilot, here's mine!

I concur that gliders ARE very difficult to see, ESPECIALLY on bright days, due to a lack of contrast with the bright background. With experience, one can make a guess when "the gliders" are likely to be about and spot a nice juicy cloud that might be a magnet for them. (I did a little gliding myself, that's how I got into this business, nearly 35 years ago).

Most of us are very aware of glider sites and always try to ensure we aren't going to get close to them. We are all aware of the requirement to give way and want to see and avoid. Firstly, and obviously, for the reason that we don't want to come into direct and sudden contact. Secondly, however, we also want to ensure that our pax (not necessarily strapped in as tight as you might think) aren't put at risk by any sudden avoiding action on ANY aircraft, so we wish to make any avoiding turns gentle and early.

Our aircraft flies somewhere between 8 and 12 sectors a day, in Class G. Sometimes more, so I do take this very seriously, believe me, as I have absolutely no intention of dying with my flying boots on.

We do sometimes get told about "possible glider contacts ahead" by ATC. Even in that event, two pairs of eyes (both with Class one medicals :ooh: ) being 100% outside the cockpit often don't see a glider until very late.

Why don't we (GA) listen out on glider frequencies? To be honest, flying along listening to a glider chat frequency is almost pointless on most occasions, gliders are just a small proportion of the Class G traffic we are likely to meet in a day running up and down the UK, especially as most glider sites don't actually operate every day.

We have to listen out on one box to obtain a FIS or RIS as required by our Ops Manual and we use the other one to contact ATC units at the many airfields we fly past. We also have to keep in contact with our base ops and handling agents as we go. Unfortunately, that is the difference between flying for fun and flying commercially.

Here's a couple of questions: Do glider pilots listen out on the most suitable ATC unit and make decisions based on what they hear, like all other sensible pilots? Are glider pilots "cloud flying" on a discrete frequency aware of what those clouds might contain - namely a powered aircraft coming at them at 150 kts, obtaining a Radar service and quite legally flying IFR and IMC outside controlled airspace? Not a good idea if your aircraft doesn't appear on radar - possibly akin to riding a pedal cycle without lights across the fast lane of the M1 at night.

We really do make our best effort to see and avoid gliders but I have to agree that many glider pilots do seem very arrogant about "Steam giving way to sail" and seem to lack awareness or concern over the problems they can cause to pilots of other aircraft.

[Bravo 99 (AJB)]

well just got back (hi Guys)

And power reading the thread but i am with Sid gliders are a XXXXX to see and most of the time the are none radio get a grip miles-JAN. a pilot down is a PILOT DOWN trying to help is not for sarcasum its for praise you will be pleased some day that a fellow pilot bothered to put in that call, probably when 75% of the cockpit is in your lap

Grow up for petes sake


Bravo 99

(AJB)

[Eurochopper]

I think we must remember that the reason why large commercial aircraft fly IFR inside controlled airspace is because that is the only place where you can be reasonably sure of not hitting anything.

Flying outside controlled airspace incurs a much higher risk of collision whether or not you are talking to someone, whether or not you carry a transponder, whether or not you and everyone else has dayglo stripes and a strobe.

Someone said that "see and avoid" other traffic was really the other way round - "avoid and see", ie you saw it pass by but it would have been too late to do much if it was on a collision course.

If you want to minimise risk of collision the only option is to fly IFR in controlled airspace. If you fly VFR outside controlled airspace you are taking a risk - you should either accept that or stop flying!

In defense of gliders, at least they don't all fly along at exactly the same few altitudes - 1500', 2000' etc so maximising the risk of collision. There's nothing like being at a random altitude to minimise the risk of collision especially when IMC as random separation is your only saviour (and a pretty good one at that)

RoD Flow - maybe you should take a glider flight and then you would understand that gliders don't fly along on quadrantals. In any case, flying quadrantals doesn't protect you from the other guy who is descending/climbing, and I can't see it being too good at protecting you from the other chap who is 80 deg or so off your heading but on a collision course in a wet cloud.

Maybe we should all just take up model flying instead?

What all this discussion highlights is the usual sad state where everyone thinks the air should be reserved for their personal little pile of stuff - maybe we should grow up?

[RoD Flow]

I'm sorry, I was just being sarcastic - I know they don't/won't/can't fly quads. I was just making reference to the Instrument Flight Rules OUTCAS, and I am well aware that those rules don't offer much protection. Personally, I won't fly in a cloud without a radar service, even if I'm allowed to.

Do they even apply to a glider, I don't know, in fact I'm boring myself by even continuing with this reply.........

PS - I have had a glider flight, didn't like it.

[boomerangben]

This thread was started by a non rotor head, who decided off his own bat to thank a helo pilot for his concern.

In reply he gets a slating for a comment that we have all made from time to time about all sorts of aviators.

Get a grip everyone - it is open FIR and we all have a right to be there. If you don't like it do something else, if you feel you have been transgressed, report it and above all apply some common sense - or as we like to call it, airmanship. And as a special request to glider pilots, please don't fly IMC without the right bits in the cockpit, ie radio and transponder and whatever the CAA require the rest of us to carry.

[Eurochopper]

boomerangben - I generally agree with what you say but where does it say that you must carry radio and transponder when IMC outside controlled airspace? (hint - it doesn't, at least not for private category flights)

[md 600 driver]

boomerangben
This thread was started by a non rotor head, who decided off his own bat to thank a helo pilot for his concern.
i think you have it wrong


miles jen [the post origator said]
. It was an attempt at sarcasm on the helicopter's part.

steve