Gulf Air - desperation & woes continue

[TCASTED]

Gulf Air - desperation & woes continue

The sad Gulf Air saga continues. The 54 year-old airline is so desperate for pilots that it has once again had to resort to paying premium fees to an agency, this time for First Officers.
While pilots are beating the doors down for even the chance of an interview at Emirates, Qatar and Etihad, Gulf Air cannot even find First Officers for itself. The pilots already at Gulf Air are all either waiting for courses at other airlines or simply cannot go anywhere else and moan constantly at their sad situation.
It is pathetic that there is one pilot at Gulf Air who thinks that being able to buy a new bicycle with his meager salary is indicative of a thriving airline. Wake-up and smell the coffee dude!!!!!!
Here’s some of the coffee smell:

Gulf Air: 54 YEARS-OLD - shrinking/self destructing

Versus:

Emirates, 19 years-old – expanding/booming
Qatar, 11 years-old – expanding/booming
Etihad, less than 1 year-old - expanding/booming

The Gulf Air woes took a new turn this week when a former Captain initiated litigation against them in the USA. The legal action is for breach of contract, recovery of salary damages, and compensation.
Gulf Air fired an American Captain after he disciplined a Bahraini purser for disappearing for 45 minutes to have a smoke and abandoning the cabin crew. The purser, not used to being admonished, decided that he would delay the flight by 2 hours by refusing to work (Gulf Air regularly only rosters a minimum cabin crew of 6 thereby not giving the Captain the choice to offload the disruptive purser).
On returning to Abu Dhabi the Captain was suspended without pay and tormented by being made to go to and from Bahrain to attend meetings and was ultimately fired. The purser was promoted!!!!!
Note: The Bahraini pursers are known as the “Untouchables” for good reason.

Any pilot who has considered going to Gulf Air should seriously reconsider or at least make sure you get a return ticket from them. Talk to BALPA, ALPA and the American Allied Pilots Association. They are aware of the Gulf Air situation.

Good luck, you will need it at dying Gulf Air……………

[vfenext]

WOW somebody really rattled your cage, didn't get the interview or failed the sim perhaps. BTW all Gulf airlines are short of crews.

[millerscourt]

vfenext

Being ex GF years ago I think TCASTED has a valid point. No I did not fail the interview or sim and why do jump to that conclusion about TCASTED??

The T & C's in all Gulf Airlines has deteriorated through the years hence the shortage. I see no point in moving to the desert particularly these days unless there is a large financial advantage in doing so. Especially as once you join any of them you are on your own with absolutely no security of employment as so clearly demonstrated by what TCASTED has mentioned.

[Brenoch]

TCASTED:

Not entirely true, I put in my application and in the end I was offered the job, as I would think anyone who attended the interview was..

They flew you down there from wherever in the world you might be, put you up in a five star hotel during the asessment and they couldn't have put on a better show if you asked them..

Bottom line is, where I to be moving to the sandpit the pay has to be alot better than the pocketmoney they offer...

[sluggums]

Brenoch, thats what it is, just a show. Just because the hotel was nice doesn't mean the job is.

[Baywatcher]

Gulf Air never will improve. Since before the first Gulf war, conditions have declined. Too many fingers in the till. The days of high salaries in the Arab world are over and even EK now pay peanuts. If you find another job get out, if you need one don't bother with GF.

[Left Coaster]

Have a look at the Tues (13th) edition (business section) of the Gulf News boys, does this sound like an airline in decline? Not really...
Sorry no link available at the moment.

[aagg]

Tcased, wake up and get your facts right before you make such stupid remarks!!

[dragon]

" . . Tcased, wake up and get your facts right before you make such stupid remarks . . "

Like the post or not, is that the absolute best you can do?..

Lighten up bud.

[vfenext]

TCASTED

You have made a small cottage industry out of lying about GF. You need to get a life. No doubt you will come back with more nonsense on another forum.

[EuroATC]

enough with the insults please, there is no need for them... I cannot comment about GFA... but can comment about what the media reports in this part of the world.

the gulf news reports alot of BS about many things, of course they will say GFA is booming etc.. just a few days ago the headline read "Gulf Air soaring to new heights"... another example.. the Bahrain F1 GP; healine "HUGE SUCCESS!!!'... yeah right, now nowhere did they write that half the tickets were given away to fill the stands. everything is controlled out here, there is no free speech, yes they have made alot of progress on democracy out here but it's nowhere close to being a free country. newspapers, tv, radio..everything is sensored..

[BahrainLad]

There is a lot of bs in the local press here, but publication of audited financial statements signed off by one of the "big five" global accountancy firms carry a different level of credibility altogether.

And to the mod-bod who deleted my comment about F1/Dubai/Sand, it's a valid point. It has been stated many times by F1 teams that racing in Dubai would be virtually impossible. The sand is desert sand, very fine and plays havoc with the air intake filters. The sand in Bahrain is entirely different from a geological point of view....brackish, salty (it's actually formerly seabed) and much larger particulate size. Doesn't have a problem with intake filters.

[HZ123]

Like many other airlines it is going thru a period of change and if correctly managed should survive. As with many other established airlines pressure has grown and it has been difficult to adjust. We at BA know all about that and I must assume that there are a number of unhelpful ideals left over when they were in bed with GF.

[Cap 56]

EuroATC

You forget the practise of taping telephone conversations.

[wandrinabout]

I do not know of any other airline in the Gulf that is having to use agencies because it simply does not have anyone who is even interested enough to send a CV/resume.

Actually, QR is doing the very same thing due to pilot shortages, and quite vigorously too.

[ijp]

We have all heard stories about Expat Pilots being fired after a confrontation with a local. I saw it happen at Saudia in '79: Tri Star Capt fired after fight with ground crew. I was reprimanded, and almost fired after an arguement with a security guard. The IFS (pursers) are well known for being "little caesars" at Saudia!
Probably the same all over the gulf.

[EuroATC]

well said TCASTED

[Young Paul]

Hmm. Another issue is: just how many big airlines can survive in what is a very small region of the world? The Gulf is certainly a good place for a "global" hub - a meeting point for Europe, North and South Asia, Africa, Oceania (though not the Americas). But four global airlines? Naah, something has to give. With the exception of oil, all it has to offer is secondary service industries - it doesn't have a home market (wealth concentrated in the hands of a relative few, who often have private travel arrangements anyway), it doesn't even have a significant financial market.

In the medium to long term (15-20 years?), I'd suggest that at most two airlines will continue to thrive, if the Airbus view of the world (A380's) dominates. But if the Boeing (B7E7) view dominates, the Gulf will gradually disappear into obscurity again.

[Left Coaster]

Facts! Tcussed, Facts! The ref you make to some "sabotage" BY A PURSER in Columbo was no such thing...Maybe you know what actually happened, maybe you don't but don't try to intimate here that someone actually sabotaged an airplane unless you know it for a fact. I know what happened and it's very much an internal matter. The Sri Lankan authorities really don't need to be involved. Unless any of their laws were broken. Don't think so in this case. Please report the facts if you have em!
LC

[TCASTED]

Left Coaster:

How you disappoint (once again). Your naiveté regarding Air Law, International Conventions and Treaties is blatantly obvious.
Of course the Sri Lanka CAA are involved if a serious incident occurs on board an aircraft on the ramp at Colombo airport……!!!!!!!!!Derrrr

Did you pass any Air Law exams at all?

I say again:

The Sri Lanka CAA are investigating an incident in which a Bahraini Purser SABOTAGED a Gulf Air flight and delayed its departure for over 2 hours.
The Purser, after being reprimanded by the Captain for disappearing for 45 minutes to have a smoke, then refused to follow the Captain’s instructions. After a telex was sent to the Purser from GF operations in Bahrain to notify the Purser that the aircraft commander was the lawful authority on board the aircraft, the Purser then went out of control preventing passenger boarding and causing distress among the all female cabin crew. Gulf Air ground staff (Sri Lankan citizens) witnessed the incident.

The flight was GF443 from CMB to AUH. The incident occurred in January.
The Sri Lanka CAA has stated that Gulf Air “is not cooperating” with the investigation.

I provided a contact for the Sri Lanka CAA in the post to which you refer. You may contact them for confirmation of the above.

The manner in which Gulf Air handled this matter is really quite astonishing although typical if you examine their 54-year history of internal management conflict and the mind-set of the indigenous male population.
After returning to Abu Dhabi the American expatriate Captain was fired and the Bahraini Purser was promoted! The Captain even had to buy his own ticket home from Abu Dhabi.

This incident certainly is NOT an “internal matter” any more. ICAO is now involved along with numerous international agencies and authorities. Gulf Air code-share partner American Airlines are also “looking” at the incident.
Additionally, the Captain has begun litigation in the USA against Gulf Air for Breach of Contract, compensation and damages.
No doubt the matter will be comprehensively reported in the press when it reaches the courts.

Surprisingly, Gulf Air still thinks it can resume service to New York and other points in the USA. It would seem highly improbable that USA flights would resume given the potential for SABOTAGE as demonstrated by the Purser in this particular incident. If such incidents can happen on the ground, they can certainly happen in the air.
Gulf Air really needs to be more cognizant of the potential for disaster.

Left Coaster:

May I suggest you further study Air Law and perhaps glance at an English dictionary, starting with the word; SABOTAGE.
It may also be prudent for you to review the definition of duties for both the Captain and the Purser as defined in the Gulf Air Operations Manual. I am certain what you find there will help you reach a more sensible conclusion, although the obvious loyalty you have toward Gulf Air is commendable.
Alternatively, you may wish to consider keeping your trap shut for the next twenty years or so, until you have enough experience to make an educated comment.

Anything else?

[Edward555]

I am not a "gulfer" but even in my part of the world it is known that Gulf Air is looking like it is the underdog...especially when the Qatari's pulled out to support their own Qatar Airlines. It is also know that unless you are desparate, you want to stay away!!!! I think TCASTED has it right man!!

[Big Bus Boy]

Just for the record, it seems that the Abu Dhabi government had also informed GF it is pulling out, As far as they are concerned its Etihad that is there new baby.

[Left Coaster]

Dear Tcast...
My my, seems I've hit a sore spot! Whatever would entice you to be so hot under the collar? I was possibly thinking that even though you have a burr under your saddle about GF, it was going to be a worthwhile debate wrt the CMB issue. I have since changed my mind. With your more than insulting language and less than professional treatment of a request for the facts, you have gone too far...If you have nothing good to say , then say nothing at all...or perhaps as the old saying goes,"better to keep ones mouth shut and let people think one stupid, than open it and prove it" (Before you accuse me of plagiarism, it's only a paraphrase.) As far as your intimations of my level of education, good thing you don't know me, you might be very surprised! Sorry you feel it's fun to belittle anothers opinion, guess it really shows your true nature. I am no longer interested in what you might have added to a decent thread. Good Day
LC:zzz:

[vfenext]

Why would somebody like TCASTED who does not work at GF, go so far out of their way to insult the people who do work there? If you look into his past you will see exactly why.
Most of what he says is not true, company is expanding, recruiting and upgrading more than most. He seems to think he is the first to think AUH will pull out. Of course it's on the cards when ET can fill the 250 flights a week GF do from AUH. That's a while away yet but it certainly will NOT come as a surprise to GF. The situation is covered, if it was not would GF be looking for 10 additional aircraft(330 or 777) or would JH have just signed on for another 3 years? Bahrain and Oman still need an airline dont forget. All I have to say.

[Robert Vesco]

Alternatively, you may wish to consider keeping your trap shut for the next twenty years or so, until you have enough experience to make an educated comment. Wow TCASTED, 10 points for CRM!

[Viscount Sussex]

TCASTED

May I ask you a couple of questions to assist my judgement and help me determine the possible reason or reasons for your open attack on Gulf Air?

1) I assume you don’t work for GF. Is that right?
2) Have you ever work for the airline?
3) If you have work for GF, would you be able to tell us why you left?
4) Again, if you previously work for GF, would you be prepared to tell us when?
5) Also which department/fleet?
6) If you are a pilot and worked for GF, would you be prepared to say which company you went to after you left?
7) Finally did you ever sell second hand cars and held several licences, from South Africa, Zimbabwe, and another four or five countries?

I don’t work for GF, I am not from the Middle East and I don’t live there.
However, I just thought that I might have had the pleasure of knowing you from another airline.

If I have the wrong guy I apologise in advance.

Cheers.

VS.

:confused:

[vfenext]

Would anyone be so crazy to buy a second hand car from this guy?

[Xeque]

I'm a fairly regular pax on GF. My last flight was BKK/LHR via BAH and return last Christmas and I shall be repeating the experience again next month.

I really don't give a rats about prima donna Bahraini Pursers or what the Flight Deck chaps receive in remuneration. If I am concerned about anything it is that the aircraft is servicable, well maintained and operated in accordance with the manufacturers recommendations.

My attitude (as an ex Merchant Navy Officer) is that the Captain's word is law during the period that the aircraft is in the air. That's an international thing - nothing at all to do with the mind set and attitudes of staff who are employed locally.

If the American Captain was (as described) so summarily dismissed then I have to assume that there were other factors involved. As a passenger my attitude is "his problem not mine" so long as I get to my destination on time and without suffering with DVT.

Provided the Cabin Crew supply me with a couple of timely GT's and a passable meal I can stomach the experience for as long as it takes to get to the first stop (BAH) where I disembark, go and stay with friends for the night and then refreshed, showered and with a change of keks, I get on board another A343 for the next leg.

I know that this is an aircrew forum but please, all of you, stop blubbering about your individual working relationships with your employers.

You chose the airline to work for. If it sucks as an employer then leave and go somewhere else. If what I read in the aviation press is true, there are hundreds of jobs up for grabs all over the world.

Go apply. If you are any good they'll snap you up.

[TCASTED]

Xeque:

I read your post and I am saddened by your comments. You seem to base your airline choice on the quality of your G & T’s.

You are quite correct, this is an aircrew forum.
The “blubbering” to which you refer, is posted in order that individuals in our industry may be informed, are able to make the best decisions on career moves that will not only affect their own lives, but in many cases the lives of their families. It is also and an exchange of ideas and comments. I may not always agree with some of the "blubbering" but I am grateful for the participation.

You wouldn’t want the “blubbering” to stop and have your pilot be ignorant of the current events within the airline industry would you?

“His problem not mine, so long as I get to my destination on time” is not the kind of comment I would have expected from an ex-Merchant Navy Officer.

You state that "the Captain's word is law." This is NOT so at Gulf Air. Their were no other factors involved regarding the termination of the Captain in question.

At Gulf Air the Captain of the aircraft may make his decisions, in part, based on the Purser's standing within the airline and the effect that Purser may have on the Captain's career. Not all Captain's are Captain's in the true sense of the word. Some of them are frightened to say anything rather than risk offending the standing of a local employee.

Remember, the Flight Seniors or pursers at Gulf Air are known as "The Untouchables."

As an ex-Merchant Navy Officer, I am astonished that you would support such an airline.

Enjoy your G & T's.

[Ignition Override]

After staying with any airline 10, 15, especially 20 years, leaving means cutting off your career. There is no retirement in the US if you leave after 15 years. Even 20. We can not restart our careers, which means having no bidding options and work for bank teller salaries again.

I would expect that most passengers are still too ignorant about our profession to know this fact, which everyone in the US airline industry is painfully aware of. Many do not even realize how blissfully ignorant they are.

Guess that's why some of us call passengers "self-loading" freight. But educated by rumours, Hollywood movies, and popular misconceptions, they know it all from "the inside".:=

[Xeque]

Hi Tcasted,

I seem to have upset you. Sorry.

In my day "the passenger was always right". Indeed the late Noel Coward included a song with that title in his London stage production of the musical "Sail Away".

It would serve many who contibute to this forum better if the term "self loading freight" were to be done away with.

Before the 747 screwed it up for all of us, the Merchant Navy was the main 'people carrier' around the world and woe betide any of us, officers or ratings, who treated a passenger with such contempt.

You castigate me for chosing to fly Gulf Air. Why should I not? From a passenger point of view it is just another airline and the woes that may beset its employees have absolutely nothing whatever to do with me.

However, there are two very good reasons why I do choose GF.

The first is that, with the exception of Phuket Air which has a promotion on at the moment and offers BKK/LGW via DXB and return LGW/BKK direct for 6,000 Baht less, Gulf Air's BKK/LHR return fare is the least expensive available for the doubtful privilege of cramming myself into a 17 by 28 inch box whilst praying that the person in front does not elect to fully recline their seat for the whole of the journey.

My policy, as someone who is mindful of his health, is that I do not fly sectors of more than 7 hours or so. If my journeytime is longer than that I break the journey so that I can get a proper night's sleep in a bed, a shave and shower in the morning and a change of clothes before I continue the journey.

This is leads to the second reason for choosing Gulf Air. I lived in Bahrain for many years and I have many friends there with whom I like to keep in touch. Gulf Air is the only airline out of Bangkok that offers me BKK/BAH direct so that I can make a stopover in Bahrain on my way to London.

I repeat what I said last night. If the airline is as bad an employer as you say then move on.

[Xeque]

Tcasted,

Your last post and mine seem to have coincided.

From the report it would seem that the key to the Captain's problem was not the Flight Attendant's attitude but the fact that the flight could not depart with only 5 crew in the cabin thereby not allowing him to "send the :mad: ashore"!

My understanding is that the minimum number of cabin staff is dictated by the number of exit doors - i.e. 6 doors = 6 cabin staff, one to man each in an emergency although I have to ask why Easyjet and Ryanair (in the UK) can operate with only 3 cabin staff on a 737?

What would have happened if a member of the cabin crew had gone sick? Would the flight not have departed then?

If this is a problem then perhaps it could be solved if members of station staff were to be trained in emergency evacuation proceedures for various types of aircraft and who could be utilised at short notice.

[birdbrain]

some impressive letter... wish I was that brave and confident.
Seems to me though that old captain might have been waiting to pounce on irritating purser.. and had all his facts and rules/regs prepared...

How'd you manage to get a copy of it ??
You did'nt write it yourself did you ??:eek:

[BYMONEK]

Xeque,
Without wishing to divert the course of this forum,the number of C/C required is not dictated by no. of exits but by the number of pax that the aircraft is certified to carry. eg charter 757 capacity is 235pax Normal crew is 6-7 but can be reduced to 5 min,yet 757 has 8 exits.This leaves 3 exits uncovered.Works other way in that if you only had 3 pax on a flight you'd still require 5 Cabin Crew.:ok:

[Viscount Sussex]

birdbrain,

Very interesting point you make. Something along those lines crossed my mind.

TCASED,

There are always two sides to a story.

Hey, by the way... you haven't answered the questions of my previous post. You are from South Africa, right? I think we could be ex-colleagues.

Come on, be a sport and tell us a bit about yourself. Give us some answers. As I said before there are always two sides to a story. Come on! show us the axe you have to grind. You don't know, we might even sympathise with you. You sound like a nice unbiased kind of guy, somebody that likes to be fair and wouldn’t bear grudges. People understand, just talk to us. Tell us more on what happened. We are all friends here on the aviation community.
:suspect:

VS

[Cap 56]

TCASTED

This incident certainly is NOT an “internal matter” any more. ICAO is now involved along with numerous international agencies and authorities. Gulf Air code-share partner American Airlines are also “looking” at the incident.


ICAO can not do anything at all and never will.

ICAO can not and will not intervene in any personal dispute and has to respect the rights of every sovereign state.

[Cap 56]

TCASTED

Do not get me wrong, I went down the same road. A lot of sympathy and acknowledgments from Montreal but no direct involvements just a couple of safety reports.

Please check you Personal Mail

[Xeque]

You see!

We all found our own and were paid an allowance in lieu of company housing.

His accommodation was paid for.

As for Bahraini's being untouchable - not true!.

I first moved to the Gulf in 1976, living and working in Saudi Arabia. It was said then that you could never sack a Saudi but you could. The labour law was very specific in the proceedure to be followed and provided you did follow it and the case was just, the Saudi got sacked.

It is very similar in Bahrain (I was last there from 1990 to 2002). If you have a just case and you follow the rules laid down by the Labour Court, you can sack a Bahraini.

Now, this Senior Flight Attendant (whoever he was) had 22 years service with Gulf Air. How many years (months) did the Captain have? I think one has to cut the S F/A some slack and (perhaps) give him an opportunity to speak for himself on this forum. I'm sure there are plenty of Pruners out there who could give him access.

Something upset him that day. What was it?

The whole 'untouchable' thing sounds ridiculous. I have this vision of sitting in the left hand seat of my Bo-bus, final to 30 BAH and arriving at the item on the check list that says "Call the Senior F/A and ask permission to land"

Come on people. Get real. You are either PIC or your not.

The Bahraini's are a proud people who do not take kindly to being rubbished by expats but sadly that happens all the time particularly by recent arrivals. The Arab way of doing things differs from the Western/European way and must be taken into account by expats who wish to live and work there in harmony with their hosts.

[Krueger]

That's why if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen. Working in such a different society ain't easy. So anyone trying to make some extra $$$ should think twice. There's no free lunch, so if get extra $$$, where's the catch? Terrorism, no free speech, religious fundamentalism,etc,etc.
I much rather prefer earn a little less, but I have my family with me, can have dinner out with friends, pray to any God I want (if I want), can talk to women, you know, normal western world stuff that you do without thinking that there are parts of the world where this little things are forbiden.:{

[Xeque]

Kreuger,

Good points particularly if you are (or were) working for Saudia or Iran Air but have you ever spent any time in Bahrain?

[Krueger]

I can't say I have. But I have travelled enough to find the diference among so many different cultures...
My remark was done generally speaking. My point was that one should think twice before becoming an expat.:ok:

[Xeque]

Of course you should.

But consider this.

In Bahrain you can:-

Worship at a Protestant or Catholic church or an officially sanctioned Jewish Synagogue.

Drink alcohol, watch western films and TV and eat pork without hindrance

Live (unmarried) with someone of the opposite sex

Join and participate in social activities that reflect your own nationality (ie The British, Indian, Pakistani, Thai etc etc clubs and a really cheery Rugby Club)

So, to be an expat in Bahrain is not a trial or a tribulation. It is one of the sanest countries I have had the privilege of living in after a life spent mostly as an expatriate.

[ia1166]

I agree. housemaids getting repeatedly raped by their employers, then told they can't leave unless they drop the charges. widespread abuse of expat women who are just walking on the street, total abuse of labourers from the indian sub continent. prostitution everywhere. drunk saudis all over the place on weekends. fraud and corruption on a grand scale. its a sane place.

Do you get out much?

[Xeque]

Ummm. Ok.

Yes, people from the Indian sub-continent be they housemaids or whatever are exploited. There will always be someone who takes advantage of these people and their desparation to find better paid (or any paid) work. The same thing could be said of any major city in any developed country in the world.

I don't know how one can stop this. It's easy to say READ THE CONTRACT!! but how many of them are able to read (period).

I've seen them arrive at the airport then herded into a pick-up for a journey to a small apartment off Exibition Road whilst they are "processed" pending transfer to KSA or wherever.

But are the people who direct such activities any different to those who do the same in New York or London or Sydney? Is the :mad: who set up the deal in Bombay or Bangkok any different? I doubt it.

Western women given a hard time. Yes. But it depends on how they chose to dress outside their home/work environment. Hot pants and a lycra top are guaranteed to excite an Arab - particularly a Saudi. We all know the rules. Choose not to follow them (OK) but accept the inevitable.

What else?

[TCASTED]

Goodness gracious guys.....!!!!!!!

All this controversy about living in Bahrain and the Middle East in general.

There's no need to lose our heads over this......OOOOOPS

[EuroATC]

Xeque, living in Bahrain is no picnic. Someone wrote... all the money.. nothing is an easy ride. They are right! See there is a saying, you come to the middle east with 2 buckets. 1 for bull**** and 1 for money. Once one is full you leave. Well my money one is full and about another month and my bull**** one would be full too. Lucky for me, I fly out of here on the 27th for good!

[Cap 56]

It is once again extremely simple.

If you have a dispute with an airline management in the Middle East then you are basically having a dispute with one of the symbols of the nation.

The nationals take these kind of disputes vry seriously and the best thing you can do is to get out of the country as quickly as possible and fight your batle from outside. That's exactely what this captain has done.

Any argument that tries to put this captain something in his shoes based on the fact that he left the counry is denying the reality of the place.

The labour laws are there to defend the locals, that's all there is to it. All the rest is a waist of time.

This reasoning is valid for the whole Middle East. Only if these contries would sign up to some bilareral agreements and hence open up their system will their aruments any credibility.

[chrispatrickGA]

Well , I am working for GF on A320 and am based in Bahrain.
For the moment I find the company rather cool and effecient.We are flying hard , it's a fact, but it a very good work atmosphere.

Never heard about the story of the B767 in January.I am going to investigate about it to understand what happened.

Again, I find this company great even if a lot of things can be improved as in any company...and living in Bahrain does'nt imply specific problems for an european guy.

[EuroATC]

chrispatrick, if you are like a couple friends of mine flying the 320...you don't spend any time in Bahrain. would you agree that half your month is spent in hotels outside Bahrain? Of course Bahrain is not so bad when you are only here half the month.

it's all about what one wants/likes.. If you are from eastern europe and had the opportunity to come work here..then it's a great deal. If you like 45 degree and flying sand then this is the place for you.

TCASTED is very very right about how things work out here. Not only in the airline industry.. it applies to everything in this part of the world.

[ironbutt57]

The Captain mentioned was known to be less than diplomatic, and quite often irrational, and explosive when dealing with issues, particularly cabin crew, and ground staff..the purser is a pleasant fellow who I find quite pleasureable to operate with..a bit of diplomacy and CRM by the Capt. would have most certainly averted the situation...:cool:

[Cap 56]

What ironbutt57 really means is that if there is a problem you better solve it on the spot, in other words, keep the management out of it because it only makes things worse.

Basically, management hates to have to deal with this sort of things; they have other things to do and are not waiting to solve his kinds of infantile disputes.

I see that reference is being made to CRM however CRM has nothing to do with this issue but basic respect for your colleagues by getting on time has.

One can abuse he use of CRM at will and this is clearly the case.

[Cap 56]

As one senior chief pilot once told me:" I as a captain you are trying to be nice to everbody you are probably not doing you job properly"


In other words, if you have a position of authority then you are bound to have to take decisions that not everybody is goindg to be happy with.

CRM is all about decision making, the process to get your facts right. That’s exactly what this captain has done.

He got as much information as possible, including the backup from OPS by fax.

What happened later is pure politics, finding a way to please the party that has the most power while preserving/reinforcing once own position for the future.

[ironbutt57]

Trust me Cap56 flew with the f.o. following the incident..this capt was way over the top....and always was with ops personnel, and just about everybody else....and he didn,t "get as much info as possible., he exploded into a fit of screaming rage in front of the whole crew, and aircraft groomers, and everybody else, and the purser hadn't disappeared, he had gone to the proper gate for transport.when the capt went to the wrong boarding gate and didn't find the cabin crew (because the capt was at the wrong place) he erupted into a fit rage...and the cabin crew..ALL OF THEM where frightened by the whole thing, and were a bit loathe to operate the flight. when the whole story came to light in Bah, the Capt was suspended....the rest of the proceedings are of no interest to me, or my colleagues..just dont judge GF by this isolated incident....

[Cap 56]

ironbutt57

If what you say is true then I have to agree with you.

I also add, that I never have seen any disrespect from any cabin crew towards the cockpit crew as long as I was in the Middle East on the contrary!

The problem many Airlines have in the Middle East is that the do not know who they hire as opposed to Airlines that run a Cadet Pilot program and know them for years before they actually get on the Flight Deck.

Psychological tests during recruitment tell a very limited story and need a lot of interpretation.

But mind you the same is true for the hiring process of the management staff.

[ironbutt57]

the above post was the account of both the f.o., and an expatriate junior cabin crew member who were part of the crew in question...'nuff said..just presenting the other side of the story as lived by the crew...

[TCASTED]

ironbottom57:

I was curious as to when you would appear.

Your blatant lies regarding the Captain’s behavior in order to secure your own precarious position with the locals, comes as no surprise.
The Arab First Officer you spoke to, is that the same First Officer who was fist-fighting with the German Captain in yet ANOTHER dispute over the Captain’s lawful authority at Gulf Air?
Tell us about that particular incident, won’t you please?

Do you really think that female junior cabin crew making a 1000 times more money than in their own country, are going to make truthful statements to their male Arab employers in a dispute between a Baharini Flight Senior and an American Captain? Particularly when that Captain has already left the country and given the effect the Bahraini Flight Seniors can have on the life a female junior cabin crewmember.
It is common knowledge the despicable way the Bahrainis treat female junior cabin crew and Arab men treat women in general.

ironbottom; I am not sure if you are a Captain or not, or what your experience level is. However, from your comments, one thing is for sure, you are rapidly turning native.

The commander of a commercial airliner is not running a democratic institution.
A good Captain will ask for and to listen to comments and ideas from his crew and make his decisions accordingly.
A bad Captain will make his decisions so as not to upset his crew.
If you are a Captain, I suspect you are the latter.

All this talk from you of CRM. Did you not read the post? The Flight Senior was given ample opportunity to discuss the matter with the Captain. All the Flight Senior could say was, “There is nothing to talk about” and “I have been here 22 years”.

Where was the CRM when Gulf Air crashed a perfectly serviceable A320 into the sea off Bahrain, killing all on board?

You simply cannot change the Arab mindset.

[vfenext]

It seems if somebody from Gulf Air says something is black TCASTED says it's white. It is boring when someone is so blinded by a personal vendeta that a thread ceases to be a debate, and becomes a way for someone to vent their anger. The truth has been lost here from around day 1. It's just who can shout the loudest now. Go on TED shout some more!!

[Ramboflyer 1]

Tcased is 100% correct.
Why then does a new airline start in Auh to replace Gulf air and it employs mostly Ex-pats , because the mentality of the people Tcased was talking about :mad: airlines....:(

[TCASTED]

Just a couple more facts:

Gulf Air VP Human Resources, Ian Waterhose and General Counsel, Dr. Majali, have both stated their intention to pursue the fired Captain for making defamatory comments about his scandalous treatment by Gulf Air.
Of course what these two icons of integrity have failed to sate is that they will only pursue the Captain in Bahrain. They are not so certain of their case outside of Bahrain.
Both Waterhose and Majali have been invited to bring their case in a western courtroom. To date, their threat remains idle.
This facts and truth of this matter will be made public however, when it finally reaches a court in the USA in an action against Gulf Air brought by the Captain.
The Captain was never paid 3-months notice or even the salary and allowances that was owing to him.

With the release of the 911 Commission Report and it's recommendations, I doubt that Gulf Air will be flying to the USA anytime soon. Defiant acts against the aircraft commander are not acceptable to the US authorities and American public, even though they seem to be condoned by Gulf Air.

Nothing more to add. The FACTS are loud enough.

I hope you guys at Gulf Air can find real airline jobs. Soon.

[Xeque]

Ironbutt,

Thanks for (at least) one other side of the story. I said in my previous posts that there had to be more to it.

Tcasted,

I don't pretend to be anywhere close to GF or it's personnel other than knowing some of them socially in Bahrain and being on the receiving end of the service when I fly with the airline.

Considering the amount of c**p they take from some passengers, particularly the large Arab families who check-in late without prior seat allocations and then insist on re-arranging themselves and the rest of the cabin once they get on board, I think they all do a good job.

I've watched the Arab Flight Seniors working with cabin staff of many nationalities (mainly female) courtiously and (whenever I've been within hearing range of the galley) in harmony.

I don't know what your relationship is or was with the company but you do seem to have a major axe to grind.

Anyway, I picked up my tickets last week and I fly with GF to London via Bahrain and back again next month. It will not be a "pleasant" experience given the amount of space each passenger must occupy for the duration of each sector. That, however, is certainly no fault of the crew who will, I'm sure, look after me with the same kindness and courtesy that one expects from any major airline.

And a final word to the Bahrain knockers. If it is so bad there why are there several thousand western expatriates, some of them into the third and fourth generation of the same families, who will never leave? Indeed, how many of them are now investing in the Kingdom by buying property there and setting up retirement homes?

I have stated in this forum the years I have spent living and working in the region. Yes, 8 years in KSA was very difficult. My remaining time in Bahrain was, however, very pleasant, even an appearance in court for a speeding offence was not unpleasant (apart from the fine). Given the chance to return there to live again I would take it like a shot.

This is my last post to this thread.

[Danny]

In order to try and 'balance' this thread I am aware of the following:The Captain concerned was with Gulf Air for just 5 months before he finally went too far with this particular incident. When invited to attend a disciplinary hearing he had already 'jumped ship' from AUH and could not be located. After being absent without leave for more than 10 days his contract was terminated, without pay or gratuity as determined by GF Staff regulations which are compliant with Bahrain Labour Law.based on the above information and the lack of anything new, I don't expect there to be anything more to add to this. If and when there is a case in the US courts as predicted by TCATED, he may keep us updated with the progress. Until then there is no need to use PPRuNe as a personal venting place for his anger.

[Brenoch]

Dear Mr Fyne,

I understand that you have the final say on what goes and what doesn't. I, however have followed this thread with great interest since I at one stage was possibly joining GF on the named fleet.

I agree that the arguments posted haven't always been the most objective and constructive however, I find it of value not only to me but possibly also to others pondering wether to join GF to see these two quite different views of what life in the pit might be like.

If it's a question of space or bandswith there must be a gazillion threads on jetblast worth closing before you close this one.

Best regards

Brenoch

(BTW, who are you quoting?)

[ironbutt57]

well now Tcasted plays his racism card think we know who that is..anyway it,s gone from factual to fiction, and I,m out of here enjoy yourself Tcasted...ciao!:cool:

[NTM]

Tcasted,

You know so much about this incident. Why do you give us a brief history of the captain in question ? And how and why he got" let go" from his previous job(s) ??

This captain has clearly a pattern. He was a trouble maker from day one !! He was a mental case !!
He was just creating problems everyday, with everybody and about everything. Just think of a reason, you got yourself a problem.
So Tcasted stop making him look like the victim here. He was NOT !!


Stop LYING even though you are giving us a good chuckle ...
Everything you say is either a pure lie or an exaggeration of a minuscule detail.

You say the FO on the CMB incident was the same guy fighting with the german capt, WRONG !!
You say American Airlines is investigating the CMB incident. WRONG ! (They don't give a toss about it actually).

It goes on and on. LIES, LIES and more LIES..

[Omark44]

My experience with Gulf Air started in 1974 and ended in 1992 so I cannot claim to be up to date on their latest management practices, however, I do know that throughtout the period I mention no one was ever sacked for an isolated incident unless it was totally unforgivable. In fact I can think of people who could have been fired on the spot for their behaviour but were given a second, (or third!) chance simply because they had no other history and had otherwise been satisfactory employees.

The very few that did get sacked did have a history and the final offence was just the tip of the iceberg, in the two cases I can recall both pilots flew in a manner that was considered dangerous. I suspect that very little has changed at GF, from what my friends still there tell me.

As an expat it is never wise to get involved in disputes with locals, particularly long serving ones but having also worked for a considerable time in the Far East it has been my experience that there was always far more liklyhood of being instantly dismissed unfairly in the Far East than the Middle East.

[iflysky]

Just wandering if anybody actually knows what the pay rates are for GF in US$ for first year FO's and onwards.

I know on the web they mention the minimums to be around 1000 hrs or so for non type-rated A320 FO's, but what are the actual competitive ???

Thanks

Sorry missed "minimums" after the last word.

[uno cheater]

Hi. I have applied to Gulf Air several time but I have not even received a reply.

I have thousands of hours commanding turbo props and I have a B737-300 to 800 rating.

I have told them I am happy to pay for another type rating of their choise for a full employment contract.

I have been online and registered through their employment agency Sniperhire.

I have been writing, emailing, going online and even getting friends to refer me. but not even a basic reply to any corespondance.

So the comment of Gulf Air desperate for crew is rubbish.

If anyone out there is in Gulf Air and you are legitimately looking for a pilot who is smart, experienced and good looking then give me a call.

[wandrinabout]

Have a look here (http://www.ppjn.com/jgulfair.html) ifly.

[Becassine]

Uno Cheater,

Looking at my August roster: 101hrs block and just 7 days off, I would say we are still short of pilots.

Now about the recruitment process, I guess it's a bit of a mystery. I've been working for them for a few months now and recently received an email inviting me for an interview in Bahrain!!!...

Good luck with your application!

Becassine.

PS: how good looking exactly??? ;) :D

[toothpaste67]

so exactly how do they recruit? profile of the guys they are hiring?
i know the sniperhire form...so who are they actually inviting?