Am I too old for the career? (Please say NO) :)

[groobo]

Welcome, I am a fresh Private, got my license couple a weeks ago. Currently with 65 hours, working on IFR, want to have it by the end of year with over 100 hrs. If time and money permits - double it, and get Commercial and/or multiengine sometime next year. I am almost 32 years old, working as a director of IT in a brokerage company (quite boring, but it pays the bills).

My question is, how real for me - concerning my current age - is to start a prefessional career as a pilot. Let's say I can log 500 hours by the time I am 35, part of it multiengine. As an almost-full-time working person I can't really afford dropping everything and going into a flight school, where I could accomplish it faster (some offer it in 90 days - can you believe it? ;) . I did my Private on my own - all studying of course - and that will be the case with any future ratings that i wish to accomplish. I passed the practical quite well having 43 hours, and my instructor says i am quite talented. So let's assume I CAN do it.

It will cost me a lot of money and courage to move ahead with big intensity, but i think, that it is possible and it is worth it. However, i want to know the reality. Am I not too old? At what level can I start thinking of flying planes for hire? Will anybody hire me? How many hour do i need to have under my wings? How could i be a competition to pilots in their 20s having already hundreds of hours in the military? What is the best path to go? Is it easier to get a job in the US, or rather start look for something in different countries (i am from EU)? If so, how hard is it to switch into a new enviroment (JAR)? Shall i think of going into flying school - is it seen as something more preferred - or is it perfectly ok to accomplish all on my own? Are these high-intensity courses valuable? Is there any on-line course, where i can get knowledge, and do the flying somewhere close to NYC? If so, does it make sense?

Thank you for all the advice, and - please - be honest.

[BritishGuy]

I think you said it yourself. Your job pays the bills. I suggest if you want to keep doing so, stay away. Believe me, Unless you're minted....and I mean minted, stay away. If you're going to do it anyway, I wish you all the very best. But you'll remember this post one day.

I know over 50 (and these are off the top of my head) did their JAA exams, ONLY 2 (brother was in ryanair and dad was in the other airline) so they got jobs. Everyone else?? NOTHING....and yeah, been like that for 2 yrs.....

Need anymore convincing?

[Send Clowns]

BritishGuy is talking garbage. He is looking fom the narrow, purely financial point of view. He is also wrong about the jobs. I know 3 joining Ryanair alone, none with any connections, plus many for other operators in just the last few months, and the number who keep in touch with us as a school are fewer than he claims to have surveyed. The industry is looking much healthier recently. Even have a student with an offer of an interview while he is still in groundschool, although he is the exception as he did know the right people and has unusual background (damned good pilot too).

It depends what you want. Do you want to fly for a living? You will probably never make as much money as you would in you current job over a lifetime career. However you must choose whether any extra job satisfaction is worth the loss of revenue. I think it is to me, having lost a lot by that decision over the last 3 years but not regreting it at all.

Your age is not a barrier (I have taught ATPL groundschool students in their 40s), but you should get our exams done as quickly as possible, to keep career options as broad as possible. If you cannot go full-time, then work hard at the distance learning (it will be tough, having a job as well!).

You could get onto some of the "type-rating to airline" schemes (note I do not necessarily advocate these, just they are an age-limited scheme that publishes the limit) with a frozen ATPL at any age to 35. This suggests your age is not a particular problem, except as it restricts your career hence returns on the investment in training.

Not sure why you talk about 500 hours. Achieve a CPL/IR with ATPL exams (i.e. a frozen ATPL in common parlance) in roughly 230-250, then apply for jobs. Yes keep flying to keep your hours up and keep current (and for fun!), but 500 hours is not a magic number! 1000 hours tends to open a few more opportunities, but they are not the best paid ones so most people are not aiming for that side of the industry.

[VFE]

Oldest guy I trained alongside was 42 and now instructs. This is in the UK though. Most trainee commercial pilots tend to be very young in the US and start off their career instructing (usually in Florida) until they have enough hours to approach the airlines. They also have a degree because the majors require it. At 32 you are slightly over average age for a trainee in the UK by about one year. US? Probably considerably above average but still in the running without a doubt. Like Send Clowns said, depends where you want to go.

If you feel ready to commit then nobody can really say anything to dissuade you. I know as I've been in your shoes. What I would recount to you are a few olds pearls of wisdom:

1) The grass is always greener on the other side.

2) Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

3) One mans heaven is another mans hell.

That just applies to the training. Alot of blood, sweat and tears which ultimately changes the individual. I am not the same person I was before I commited to commercial flight training and whether I'm a nicer person for it is rather debatable. To shell out all that money is quite a selfish act so ones mindset alters once the plunge is undertaken. It's a cut-throat business and one that is only equalled by the second hand car trade. You have to get tough to pull through and that means pissing off alot of those you consider dearest to you.

To convert FAA to JAA is quite a labourious process and you may wish to look into skipping the FAA (you need alot of hours to get hired in the US) and going straight to JAA. You have your FAA PPL so you can now start the JAA Airline Transport Pilots Licence groundschool with a UK based trainer such as Bristol Groundschool (search the web). They would send the distance learning manuals to you and you'd study at home in the US and then travel to the UK for the 2 week brush up course prior to your first module of exams of which there are two (two modules in total and you get 6 attempts to pass 14 subjects but 4 goes on any one subject out of those 6 attempts). Another option would be to check out that groundschool at Naples, Florida as they do the ATPL ground. Bit nearer to home for brush up course and exam sittings.

After that, with 150 TT (incl.100hrs PIC for CPL issue) you can move onto the JAA CPL which you can do at many UK run schools in Florida. After that, you could complete the game by starting your IR in Florida and finishing it off in the UK. A JAR (Joint Aviation Requirement) states that the IR test be conducted in JAA airspace which means some hours spent under IR instruction before your test getting used to whichever JAA state airspace you choose to take the test in but UK airspace is most valuable.

Search the web for JAA schools in the US and check out Naples and Bristol for the ATPL ground. The added advantage of going through the JAA route instead of the FAA route is that you could dispense with alot of the hours building because guys get hired with less hours in JAA states than in the US. You say you're from the EU so residency in a JAA state should not be too much of a problem for you.

Just to recap:

1) JAA ATPL groundschool distance learning at home in NYC with either Naples or a UK based school (Bristol is best).

2) Build hours to 150 (incl.100 PIC)

3) Complete JAA CPL in Florida

4) Start JAA IR in Florida and complete in UK airspace.

As for job availability - things are steadily improving. It is still very desperate but things are on the up...... in the UK at least. In the US I don't know of anybody who got hired by a major with less than 2000 hours and a college degree before 911 and after 911 just one guy I know has been taken back on by Continental Express as junior FO.

VFE. :ok:

[Send Clowns]

:O Ooops, didn't notice the location. Always tend to assume UK.

[2close]

Hi Groobo,

The only comment I can make, as one with 210 hrs PPL, is that, when I left military service at 33 yrs old (10 yrs ago), as a new PPL with a fairly hefty sum of redundancy cash in the bank I wanted to go commercial but ummed and aahed over all the tales of gloom and despondency that were out there at the time.

I sat back, continued to umm and aah, did nothing, used up the cash, and now look back thinking 'YOU T**T !!!!' (Use of capitals very deliberate!).

Not wishing to be over-philosophical; you get one stab at this. The longer you wait, the fewer your options are. Look at your bank balance, weigh up the worse case scenario and should you decide that you can afford 2 - 3 years away from the IT industry with no major collateral damage (and you could probably go back into it in 3 years time) then go for it. And what a way to spend a few years - you obviously love it or you wouldn't be asking the question in the first place.

I'm considering it now, not for airlines, but for instructing (weirdo maybe but I love teaching, at whatever level) and I know only too well what indecision is like.

Hope you make the choice soon, whichever way,

2close

[jam123]

2close,

please check your private messages, thanks


Jam

[mungo_55]

Hi Groobo,

Think I'm in a similar kind of boat to you ! I'm 34 and seriously considering leaving work to train full time. I work in IT on the technical side and enjoy the challenges sometimes, its a good profession for giving your grey matter a workout. I really got into IT hoping to save some money to do a PPL which I eventually did. Only afterwards did I find that I could just meet the eyesight requirements for a commercial license medical - I think the requirements changed slightly here in the UK in the last few years.

So now its a question of taking the plunge. I dont think you are too old by any means - I haven't come across too many people telling me Im a complete idiot for considering working in flying at my age ! However, I think you need to realise that it may be a bit harder than starting when you are say 25. If you want to do it and you have a positive (but realistic) attitude then you stand a good chance. As has already been said, you probably arent going to make as much money as in the IT profession. At the end of the day though, if you can make a half decent wage and do something you really enjoy then its got to be a better option than making more money and doing something you dont find all that enjoyable.

erm, hope that helps a bit.

[Flypuppy]

If you are a wrinkly wannabe and are married, unless you have the 100% unequivocal support of your wife plus you have the money to throw at the project (by that I mean you can afford to miss 60k) do not begin on this course of action.

If you have to convince your missus and the bank manager that this is a good plan you will end up divorced.

[FlyingDan]

Hi Groobo,

I have to agree with mungo_55 on this one.

I'm 32 and am due to start integrated training towards the end of this year.

There are a couple of positives being the wrong side of 30 offers too!:

1) You have a profession to fall back on - would you rather be in your 30's knowing you can pay off the debt as you have an alternative career to turn to should the elusive right hand seat position not come about, or be in your 20's throwing blind faith behind the hope of a job?

2) You have other things to talk about at an interview and thus have other skills a potential employer may see as beneficial. Also, as a potential employer, would you look upon it negatively that someone has waited until they are financially solvent enough to consider burdening themselves with debt? It can only be viewed as prudent, and this is not a bad trait to see in a potential pilot.

Come on, if the government have their way, we'll all be working until we're 75 before long anyway in order to fund the pension shortfall. Also, if the number of times this question has been posed and the number of replies it generates is anything to go by, there must be a high percentage of people out there who are in there 30's doing exactly what you are thinking of.

It really comes down to the point that can you handle regrets at 65? Not sure I can, hence my decision to change careers now.

Best of luck in whatever you decide to do.

FlyingDan.

[Snigs]

And even if you've finished all the training, but still haven't got a full time flying job, and you're spending all your free time at the weekends instructing, you still could be heading for a divorce....

Think long and hard about this, £60k+ is an awful lot of money! :(

[VFE]

Would be very suprised if it cost him £60K. He already has an ICAO PPL and is already living in USA where he can do most of his training. Read the small print. ;)

VFE.

[Spyke]

My 2 cents...

Think long and hard before parting with your cash. Go talk to some of the instructors at your local flying school who have (f)ATPLs. Also weigh up the option of a self-sponsored Type Rating (read this and last month's Log for a point of view).

I'm 34. I've got a fATPL. I've got nowhere in trying to find that elusive first job. I've been kicked back by CTC (too old :rolleyes: ) and opinion changes daily on whether an Instructor Rating is the way forward... nice if you have the cash, but useless if you have a mortgage, repayments on the £50k training fee, a life, etc. etc. :(

Would I have done it given a second chance? Tricky. At the moment I'm leaning over the "No" side of the fence eyeing up the colour of the grass; it's certianly not very green on the flying side!!

Having said that, 18 months down the line when you're all qualified the job market will probably have turned completely round, and you'll walk into a job.

Spyke

[VFE]

Doubt there will be too many people at his local flying club with fATPL's seeing as he lives in NYC! Okay, there may be one or two who've done the FAA ATP theoretical examinations because they've built up alot of instructing hours but as for frozen JAR ATPL guys instructing in the NYC area I would say you've got buckleys chance of locating just one.

Most of you guys are assuming he lives in the UK and is soley interested in the JAR route, read his post again. He is based in the USA!!!!. :rolleyes:

VFE.

[Spyke]

Dammit VFE, I hate when you're right. :p

[speedbird001]

Hi All,

I'm a student PPL With just over 40hrs and I've passed all the written exams, I'm now doing course revision and I'll have my test hopefully in a few weeks, I also work in the I.T Industry as an I.T engineer like many other ATPL wannabes.

I think you've all answered the age question for me and hopefully allayed my fears over this, I'll be 32 next month and I never dreamed about taking my flying any further forward than the PPL until the last couple of months, my main worries though are getting through the ATPL exams.

Like most people I won't be able to give up work and study full time so it'll have to be done through distance learning, I don't really see any problems in studying this way as I've done many I.T qualifications this way, but the last time I did any real Physics and Maths ( Excluding PPL ) was at school and I feel a little bit worried over this, can anyone recommend what I need to brush up on prior to doing the study ? I think someone from this forum recommended a book called The Mechanics Of Flight by A.C Kermode anyone else got this ?

I'll be doing my Ground School with Bristol GS, hopefully soon as I've done the PPL, I've already been in touch with someone there ( Alex ) and they've sent me a demo disk and it looks good, but I just want to give myself a good head start and a realistic chance of succeeding before I lay loads of ££££££££ out, any ideas ???

Cheers

speedbird 001

[Northern Highflyer]

Basic maths and physics is all you need. On the maths side, trigonometry (triangles and circles), sin, cos, tan is the main area, as well as being able to transpose formulae. On the physics side it is the basic laws such as Boyles, Charles, Newton, etc. Nothing too extreme. I was rusty when I started but soon got back into it.

I am with Bristol and when you start module 1 they offer a short refresher course for a small fee to bring you up to speed with what you need to know. Speak to Alex about it if you are interested in this.

Regards

NH

[speedbird001]

Hi NH,

Thanks for your reply,

How far along are you with it and how are you finding it so far ? Do you think the refresher course you mention will be sufficient enough ? like I previously stated it's been a long time since I had anything in depth to do with either Maths or Physics, I know to some extent it's down to the individual's ability and determination, people have said the most difficult thing will be is to stay motivated, I've never had any problems with that so far as I'm used to doing a fair bit of studying for I.T related things.

I've had really good feedback from people who've gone to Bristol GS and the demo disk they sent to me about their material was really good, is the help there if you really struggle with things and how good would you say it is compared to doing the course full time ?


Thanks


Speedbird001

[Northern Highflyer]

Hi Speedbird

Sorry for the delay in replying but I have had a very busy week.

To answer your questions in order.

I have just completed Mod 2 studies and am now revising ready for the 2 week brush up course in September. Theres no doubt it has been tough and self discipline is required to get through the course. If you aren't 100% dedicated to doing this, the study will beat you. The comments you have heard on keeping the motivation going are true. Having said that, it has been fun and interesting in a strange sort of way.

I cannot comment on how good the maths refresher course is as I didn't do it, but knowing BGS, it will be just what you need to get you through the exams with some confidence.

The help you get from the guys at BGS is second to none. They are available by email, telephone, or via the forum on their website where you can ask questions and read other threads from other studensts. This makes you realise you are not alone when you are struggling.

I cannot comment either on how it compares to a full time course, having not done one. It's horses for courses and down to personal preference. Working full time I had no choice but to do it the modular way.

Hope that helps.

NH :ok:

[speedbird001]

Hi NH,

Thanks for your reply, no worries about the delay, I know how you feel about being busy I was just saying to my Network Manager "We live just for work in this country don't we" ?

I've been in touch with BGS over the maths & physics refresher course and they don't actually do a course but one of the instructors has written a book called "Maths For Aviation" so I'm about to get that off them ASAP.

He said it's all geared for the ATPL course at BGS and it will be all I need to know about the maths side of things anyway, they've reassured me over the Physics that it's only the basics.

I'm like you in the fact that I've got to keep in full time employment to fund the training and live as well, but nothing I ever do seems to be easy just like a lot of other wannabes I suppose.

I't doesn't really bother me that it'll have to be done by distance learning, I'm pretty sure I'll stay motivated, it's only the funding that really concerns me as there doesn't seem to be very much help out there apart from the banks, I just hope there will be jobs out there if and when I get going.

Good luck with your exams anyway.


Thanks


SB001

[flyingdogguitar]

Hi,
I have a PPl for both fixed wing and helicopters and I guess around 200hrs T.T. I'm due to start my ATPL ground school very soon with Bristol at the grand old age of 42!! (cries of gasp!, egad! and other such expletives!!).
I'm currently in a job which I've been in for the last twenty five years, since leaving sixth form. And I can honestly say, hand on heart, I've hated pretty much every moment of it!! Pretty sad state to be in I know. But I have a very understanding wife and a young son. My mortgage will be paid up in the next five years, so I guess that'll be one millstone gone?
This is just my opportunity to give it ago! at least when I'm about to expire my last breath I can say to myself, and those around me. It's better to have tried and failed, than to have not tried at all!
I know it will involve a lot of money, time, blood sweat and tears! But I have to give it a try!


The very Best of luck to all on this Forum

Cheers

Dave

[Biscuit]

flyingdogguitar,

I take my hat off to you Sir!! Well done. I've just finished the ATPL ground school and it's not that bad really, just long hours. There were guys in their late 30s and 40s on my course and they didn't seem particularly fussed about their age and fully expected to get work in the near future.

Good luck.

B

[Number Cruncher]

Nice post flyingdogguitar

You sum it up really. We can all sit around reading Prune till our hearts content, but at the end of the day its your life and you will probably have made up your mind before you seek advice anyway.

Good luck with your training and I hope it works out for you.