Jag incident in Akrotiri

[Stormshadow2]

Anyone know anything more about a Jag incident on take off form Akrotiri last week, poss. Thursday? Believe it was leaving having completed an APC and collided with an aerial??

[Chris Kebab]

57 ft I recall we were told this morning before..................

[Jackonicko]

Did some over-cautious mod pull the original thread?

Tosser!

[McD]

Now, now, Jacko, before you go and call anyone a tosser ;)

I had a look at the Admin section, and don't see any such thread in there (which is where it would go if someone had a problem with the thread).

Was there a thread posted earlier on this subject? I never saw it if there was one.

But if there was a thread, then my honestly-best guess is that the original poster must have deleted it, because it doesn't appear that any mod (overzealous or not :p ) has done anything.

However...here's something interesting. I notice that on 8 July 1994 (not 8 July 2004 which would have been last Thursday), an RAF aircraft (a Tornado, I think?) did crash into the sea near Akrotiri during APC. Do you suppose someone has their decades mixed up?

[Biggus]

McD

There was a thread posted earlier on this very subject, it ran for about the last 2 days and got up to 13 odd replies, there is no mix up with the date.

As you surmise it might well have been pulled by the originator, he was asked to do so at one point!

[Stormshadow2]

There may be a coincidence between dates but there is abig difference between a Tornado and a Jaguar, and between the sea and an aerial.

Something fishy going on, inconvenient timing for bad news involving the Jaguar, who knows? There's a story out there that may involve a senior officer flying lower than he should have been and getting caught out .

One things for sure, I will certainly not be flying in Cyprus on 8 July 2014 though!!

[circle kay]

SS2

Why will no one be flying from Cyprus on 8/7/2014?
Is it on a weekend?
;)

[ORAC]

I believe the implication is that he has reached, or is approaching, the status of KOS and will be otherwise employed by then. You never know though, it might be a civilian airport by then.... ;)

[keithl]

McD - Biggus is right. I was taking part in the original, and it disappeared about the middle of Sunday. I'm pretty sure the originator will have deleted it, as the general opinion was that it was out of order. I wont provide any details, in the same spirit, but I will say "Well done feret, good decision".

[Captain Kirk]

Chris Kebab,

At a guess, I would be fairly positive of your mil credentials - who else would know of that hallowed eating place? You may, however, wish to wonder to whom you are replying when obvious pseudonyms (only 2 posts, blank profile) appear and start fishing. No offence SS2, but you seem like a journo to me. At least we know what we get with Jacko.

AFT - respect.:cool:

[Slotback]

Maybe this is a new initiative to reduce the number of Jaguars without the politically unacceptable need to admit a reduction in front line capability!! It seems unlikely that the rumours about the circumstances are true. Ninety years of experience and a basic mistake like flying in to a lighting rig.

Anyway, with the spending increase of 1.4% in real terms the chancellor has just announced, we can afford new lights and to take the upset locals out for a kebab and a keo.

[Chris Kebab]

Captain Kirk - thanks for the vote of confidence in my "credentials" which, I am led to believe, are more than adequate but not for display on this forum! No I am not the main man CK - more of a tribute act!

Agree fully with the fishing on the first post but I tend to fall on the "rumour network" side of the argument.

As for the incident, the initial report (SS - no conspiracy involved) makes no mention of height. He may be OK - I can think of many who have got away with worse mistakes than an overcooked detachment take-off.

But then again clipping something was a tad unfortunate..

[McD]

I guess I never saw the original post -- my curse for having to work through the weekends ;)

Still, you gotta admit, it's an eerie coincidence, those dates.

[norvenmunky]

Oh Dear!

http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004321065,00.html

[PhoenixDaCat]

I like the way the contrast between the BBC news site version and the Sun.

And here I was thinking that a TopGun was an American fighter pilot, not a British bomber boy.

[ppf]

Here's the Beebs version............

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3888839.stm

ppf :eek:

[BEagle]

"He realised that the light on his wing tip wasn't working shortly after take-off and returned."

Of course - silly of anyone to think otherwise! What a truly classic piece of nonsense from a Whitehall spin doctor!

[Ali Barber]

That must be the nav light failure caption on the warning panel! If the silly tart is military, she should have known better. If she was a civil servant, she should go back to her open plan office and sit down in her £1,000 chair.

[brakedwell]

No wonder the light was not working - it was disconnected from the mains!

[Gingerbread Man]

Thought this might be a useful addition to the vocabulary of The Sun's journalists (who, of course, are bound to read this forum :) ).

pi·lot

1. One who operates or is licensed to operate an aircraft in flight.

2. Nautical.
a. One who, though not belonging to a ship's company, is licensed to conduct a ship into and out of port or through dangerous waters.
b. The helmsman of a ship.

3. One who guides or directs a course of action for others.

4. The part of a tool, device, or machine that leads or guides the whole.

5. A pilot light, as in a stove.

6. A television program produced as a prototype of a series being considered for adoption by a network.

7. Not directly exchangeable for 'ace' or 'Top Gun'.


Was I not reading hard enough, or did they not use the word at all in the report?

Ginge ;)

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

The ace clipped the airbase light at 54ft with a wing tip on his Jaguar attack jet while doing 600mph.

54 feet!

Good job it wasn't a Top Gun Ace from 16 Sqn! :}


(This witty retort would work better if the Sun had not reported that he was from 41 Sqn)

[ImageGear]

Pi-lot ? Surely Albert Crew

[ROUND TUIT]

I agree he should be reprimanded - for flying too high. What a wimp , he should have been at 10 ft. Then instead of clipping the bulb on top of the pole he would have just missed the pole itself (its thinner than the bulb).

[I_stood_in_the_door]

not as good as 13' clocked by a herc some years ago.

RIP Chris.

[Exmil]

Presenting The Slum with the opportunity to distort, sorry, report any story is risky. However, I'd suggest that there are several better examples: down south, estimated in single figures.

Let's hear it for the exponent of Estuarine English. Perhaps we should suggest that The Slum request a new entry in the OED: insert Top Gun Ace, delete pilot.

[Engineer]

No matter what you say it still sales a lot of newspapers :E

[Leprechaun]

Going back to a point made in the top third of the first page! Since when do we have Moderators in this forum!
I remember a while back we had a moderator called FltLt Pprune who was a gestalt entity comprising wise old salts who ensured that we, in our drunken posting, didn't give away information to the bad guys during Gulf II. (which is all very sensible and may they rest happily on their laurels in the knowledge of a job well done!)
That said,
Since when do we need a moderator when we are not engaged in that kind of thing, at least not at a level which attracts public and press interest!
Surely we do a pretty good job of moderating ourselves! Stand fast my grammar obviously!:confused:

[Captain Kirk]

Yes, this is a rumour forum, but if ever there was an example of the danger of a careless post, this (or, at least, the original) is it.

Chris Kebab - Stormshadow2 is a confirmed journo by my book - maybe even the Slum.

Al Ferets Toe - well done for pulling the plug. The Slum story could just as easily have come from a call to their 'incitement' hotline but I think my original point has, unfortunately, been borne out.

[Jackonicko]

I don't think he is, y'know.

It's not a good example of where censorship or self censorship is needed.

If revealing something might cost lives, or if it might help an enemy defend himself, then there's a case for being cautious. When information is embarrassing, politically embarassing or might damage careers, it should be fair game.

Moreover, by discussing this incident in detail here, it soon becomes clear to the less well informed observer that:

a) It's unfortunate, but no big deal.

b) It indicates a momentary lapse of judgement, but is no big deal.

[McD]

There, there, Leprechaun ... time to take a small chill pill perhaps? ;)

If you'll re-read this thread, you'll see that the original thread disappeared due to actions by the original poster, not by any moderator. My first post on this thread was to reassure contributors (such as Jackonicko) that there had been no admin action taken on that thread.

On the subject of moderation ... ok, I'll take the bait --
I'll improve on your statement, Leprechaun, and say that most of the time, the contributors to the Military Forum do an excellent job of self-moderation, (not just "good"), which is why there is no dedicated moderator. However, having said that, there are times (very rare) when administrative action is warranted. We only take action if absolutely necessary, and we do our best to be completely straightforward about it. So no conspiracy theories, ok? (And that applies to you too Jacko :p )

-- -- -- --

Back to the subject now ..... I've got friends & acquaintances in 41 Sqn; I'm just glad he's ok -- the outcome could have been much worse.

[Exmil]

Agree with McD. Broke between the Akrotiri lighting stanchions and survived with only dented ego and embarassment (SEVERE bolly) - didn't even have time to get the LSJ off. Looking at the poles afterwards you realise that any contact is going to spoil your day and perhaps one should learn from the momentary lack of judgement (experience).

[escapee]

Saw the Jag in the hangar the other day, also saw the investigators mooching around the lighting stand; its on the edge of the pan where the APC park their aircraft. The a/c had only lost the tip of the left wing, looked like it had been cut with a hacksaw. If he had done a break he would have been breaking over the top of the buildings which I don't believe he was doing. I know a few people who saw and heard the aircraft as they did their fly past there initial reaction was ' what the **** are they doing that low' Any further left and this could have been a very serious accident not only for the pilot but also people on the ground. This is only my opinion of what I saw and heard.

PS. The stand had a camera on it too

[Olly O'Leg]

Okay Guys, this one's obviously reached a point where people are still intent on repeating/embellishing rumour and hearsay, but Captain Kirk's recent words on this very thread have appeared to fall on deaf ears. Imagine that it was you who had had an unfortunate incident which people then insisted on commenting upon. Come the Sun reporter loosely disguised as a GR4 hero of the recent fracas, reads the comments and puts the (original) thread almost word for word on a full page spread in his newspaper. Whether you are to blame or not for your accident, Sun readers want to read of military people getting shafted.

In putting these comments on threads like this, you are quite literally risking a guy's career (the famous "Harrier Pilots on Tour" etc etc.) I'm not saying don't put these kind of things on here (it is a RUmour NEtwork after all) but please take some time to think of your post's possible implications before pressing that button.

Sorry to sound like the Fun Police, but I think this thread proves an age-old, but never learnt PPRuNe lesson of being very careful what you post here.

Thanks chaps! :ok:

[pshakey]

Anyone see 'Top Gear' last night?

Clarkson showed the article from The Sun, explained the MOD had threatened to take the pilot's wings off him as a result of the incident, and then offered the pilot a job as a presenter on the show if this happens!

Might be a very useful offer if some of the current rumours on this one are to be believed. I wonder if their airships are aware of this?

Whatever happens, he's got some fans waiting:ok:

[Mach the Knife]

Not too many fans here!

FACT: Light Stanchion (not street lamp) on G dispersal chopped off at 54' agl
FACT: Hit by a low flying Jaguar

Opinion (Mine) The cause of this incident SHOULD have his career ended, and I don't mean posted to a ground tour, I mean CM and thrown out AND reported to the CAA to prevent him getting ANY job in aviation. I have also heard that the guy who actually hit the tower may not have been totally to blame but was a wing man in a box 4 led by one of his Sqn "Mates" Sorry if it sounds harsh but when I am flying close formation I like to be able to trust my leader not to endanger my life as well as his and the many people on the ground in the buildings around G dispersal. I am sure there will be a thorough investigation by the appropriate authorities, the Sun and Top Gear comments will have no bearing on the out come at all.

If it turns out that he had some dire emergency and was manfully wrestling with the controls to avoid certain disaster and unfortunately clipped a tower below any RAF fixed wing MSD then give him a medal. If it turns out it was a blatent disregarding of his and anyone elses safety (let alone the many regulations covering low flying, flypasts and formation) then hang him without sympathy. All only speculation at this stage obviously.

[FJJP]

I'll bet that there is nothing that can be said by ANYBODY on this forum or any other forum that can make this guy feel any worse than he really feels right now. He is facing the full disciplinary wrath of everybody from CAS downwards, and will be very aware that his normal (fast track, single seat) career path is severely set back, if not destroyed.

He knows he crapped out big time, and is probably breathing a sigh of relief that a) the aircraft is in one piece and not desperately damaged and b) that no-one got killed or hurt.

He knows he probably faces a court martial and no flying for some considerable time.

Tell me what can be worse for a young, single seat, fast jet, fighter pilot?

I don't condone bad flying discipline, high spirits, or whatever you else you want to call it. However, to don the black cap and totally stop this individual ever flying again is an over-reaction to a gross degree.

Mach, I would like to know that you have NEVER broken a flying rule or regulation EVER in your career...

And, by the way, formally informing the CAA may well be against the law.

Let's calm down and let the system deal with this without us exacerbating the situation.

[twenty2fifty]

well said FJJP,

"there for the grace of God" and all that....................

[Reichman]

Mach The Knife,

Quite an apt monicker. I do hope you never serve on a court martial or a jury.

I wish I was as perfect an aviator as you obviously are.

Reichman

[Mach the Knife]

FJJP, I cannot confirm that I have never broken a flying rule or regulation ever in my career, there are so many these days. I can, however, confirm that I have never done a 50' flypast of G dispersal (or I prepared it properly and knew where the obstructions were, you decide). Only my opinion, which incidentaly the board won't be interested in either, but I don't want my family or me to fly with someone who does a 50' flypast without preparing it safely! if there is such a thing.

Reichman, I too hope I never have to serve on a board or a jury.

[FJJP]

Mach, but then the young and foolish grow up eventually to lead the next generation of the young and foolish, who impart the wisdom of not breaking the rules, etc. And so the world comes full circle. By the time the Jag mate ever gets near a bona self loading freight machine, I wouldn't mind betting he would be one of the most reliable and safest drivers on the fleet..

[The Gorilla]

Listen, cynical I may be but..

My experience of these things is that he has nothing to worry about long term. Short term? Yes a slap on the wrist and a posting away from all the excitement!!

Long term a promotion, probably to Air Rank at some point and he will end up in charge of a Squadron on the way.

I have known colleagues who have done far, far worse (fatality involved) and gone on to much better things within the RAF after their "Pennance"!!!



:ok:

[FJJP]

What's the latest news on the incident? I hope the Jag mate has got airborne again...

[Jackonicko]

"...could have been..."

But "wasn't."

FACT: He survived.
FACT: The aircraft survived.
FACT: No-one was hurt.

He, his mates, his squadron, his community and everyone who reads about it in Spry's column will learn valuable lessons from it.

Anyone who claims never to have put themselves in a position where something similar could not have happened to them and or their aircraft is either a liar or someone who requires instant canonisation? Has your lookout always been that sharp? Have you never been a bit over zealous on the break? Pushed the weather mins? I know I have!

Ground him permanently? Report him to the CAA? CM him? Do grow up and get some sense of proportion! I'd rather have a few young hot-heads in the Air Force that my taxes fund who enjoy their flying, have some spirit, who make mistakes and learn from them (gaining cooler heads in the process) than pompous gits who think they're perfect? Isn't complacency and arrogance as big a flight safety danger as poor judgement? It always used to be.

And is this the worst thing to be hit by a Jag wingtip? How about the sheep on the Welsh hillside? OK, that was before some of you were born, but have things really changed so very much? And I'd say that this bloke's mistake was rather less serious than the mistakes made by blokes like Bader.......

[jindabyne]

Jacko

You're not suggesting, are you, that if this guy did screw up,he should be treated as a naughty boy, ticked off, and let loose straightaway? If found 'guilty', he will probably be CM. These days I don't know what the punishment would be - depends on several factors - nature of the hierarchy and his past record being just two. Whatever, in the modern FJ climate (say 1960 onwards) he should expect severity. All things being 'equal' I'd hope that he will return, at some stage, to FJ flying where he will no doubt deploy his hard-earned wisdom to good effect - as did several of my well-respected contemporaries; most of whom , contrary to opinions on other posts, did not go on to greatness (like many others, I got away with lots of naughty things - but still didn't make greatness).

As for Bader, he was very lucky to survive - and I wouldn't describe his 'accident' as a mistake. Bader and the Jag pilot (if 'guilty') are deemed negligent beyond all reasonable doubt - unlike others that we know of on a different thread.

Let the punishment fit the crime - and in air force terms this has generally been firm and traditional in circumstances such as this. But hey, like others, we're pre-empting things: best let matters be dealt with. That said, all this comment is fair game - it won't influence the outcome one toss.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I had the impression from reading various threads on mil that 'spirited low flying' was, if not encouraged, at least tolerated by the powers that be?

'In time of war' we need those skills and all that.

Is the drama caused by the fact he was that low or the fact he hit the pole?

Seems to me that pictures of F4s between the hangars at various parades suggest that his punishment should be more along the lines of a slap on the wrist and stern talking to, perhaps grounded for a month...and then forgotten about!

Not to mention datsun convertables in the desert!!!

IMO it is unreasonable to expect a young hard charger (virtually anyone that makes the cockpit of a FJ must be such) to be a saint as well.

Chuck.

[Beermonkey]

I fully agree with FJJP;
The guy knows full well that he has porked it massively and probably won't see a Typhoon cockpit for a long while....

However, we are all human and as such prone to lapses in judgement/good sense. That doesn't make someone a bad person or 'unsafe to fly me or my family'. In fact, as others have pointed out, it will probably make him/her wiser and far more likely to show restraint.

At the end of the day, you employ fast jet pilots to be aggressive and sometimes that can get a little carried away-most of us will testify to that. FJPs aren't blunties, they train to kill people and if that means once in a blue moon we have an incident like this, I'd much prefer that than having an airforce that's full of pansys that can't get amongst them!

[Lima Juliet]

Heard the Guy came from down-under...maybe the position of the sun or the reverse coreolis (is that spelt wright?) effected his hare brain??:E

LJ

[polyglory]

No worries, it works well on both ends;)

[aviatrade]

what's the fuss about......lots of lucky ( they survived ) mud movers can lay claim to antennae clipping, pylon nudging and whip aerial snapping

.....reminds me of a certain Hunter commander who nailed a whip aerial on a ridge near Thumrait.....saw him back in the circuit..." bloody hell...it's a MIG !!! "....( he'd lost the nosecone )...never was much good at a/c recce

sigh......the good old days !