Ethnic employment

[Grimweasel]

Does this mean that the army has lowered its standards and recruited from the colonies just to satisfy recruitment figures at the detriment to overall skill levels and professionalism?

I think so..............

Here..... (http://www.army.mod.uk/servingsoldier/whatsgoingon/rfo_benchmarking_report_04.htm)

[UnderPowered]

No, it does not. I've got 1800 hours on the Jaguar, and have been 'sausage side' with a union jack on my shoulder more times than you've had hot dinners. And I am what you'd probably describe as a 'paki'. Dick.

[Wholigan]

A few points. First Grim Weasel, I'm not sure how you infer from that article that the army (or any of the other services) has either lowered its standards or recruited from the colonies. Are you implying that people from the colonies are not up to the standards required by the Armed Forces? If so, then people with those views do not belong on this board! Secondly for you GW, why do you think that recruitment of "ethnic minorities" (shoot I hate that phrase) implies that they are recruited from "the Colonies"? Are you not aware that we have a rich and diverse racial mix in this country, the vast majority of whom were born and bred in these isles? I think you'll also find that joining the British Armed Forces is actually pretty damned difficult for people actually "from the colonies".

Now for UnderPowered, that was a pretty harsh reaction to actually imply (all right then you pretty much stated) that Grimweasel is a racist. Such examples of "personal abuse" are also not required nor expected on this board, even if you are peed off. ;)

So - please do not let this develop into a slanging match or the thread gets binned! (Returned here on advice to give the thread a chance to run. But please heed the warning folks.)

[steamchicken]

I suppose the VC candidate warrior driver is an example of lower standards too? After all, he's from Jamaica.

[althenick]

Does this mean that the army has lowered its standards and recruited from the colonies just to satisfy recruitment figures at the detriment to overall skill levels and professionalism?

... Just as well those recruited from the colonies Helped us out in the last global shindig eh? Otherwise we'd all be talking German and be so indocternated into nazism that the quote above would be taken quite seriously.

GW - you're trying to wind us up aren't you!
UP- Understandable response.
Wholigan - nicely summarised.

BTW does that mean That the Ghurka's lower the general professionalsim of the British Army :confused:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Guy's,

Don't bite...........just go to the Movers V Loadie's threads and you will have some classic examples of this stroker's posts....... did think he was just "anti crab" and a wind up merchant but the racist bit is a bit hard to swallow:}

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Lord Trenchards Brat]

ABIW


I "Dito" your post

[WE Branch Fanatic]

Colonies?

Falklands, Gibraltar, etc etc.....

[rej]

Sorry everyone (except Grimweasel) but I had to reply.

Grimweasel,

You must be a complete AR@* to have such bigoted views. One of my best mates come from one of your so-called “colonies”. He has given a great deal to the RAF in his short time with us. He is very competent at his job, loyal and has already done-his-bit in the “sand-pit”.

I know this is an open forum where everyone has a right to air his or her views so here is mine -
“Grow up, get lost and post your unwanted views somewhere else”.

[UnderPowered]

Wholigan. Sorry.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

UP,
Not sure you have much to apologise for fella:ok: Your time at the coal face gives you the right to reply in that manner to the twerp:ok:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Wholigan]

Don't apologise UnderPowered. I understand exactly what prompted that; it's just that I have to issue the warning to both sides mate. And you did get a ;) at the end. Anyway you better buy me a beer whenever the Colt closing bash occurs, and I'll buy you one back. ;) :ok:

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

I do love a happy ending:O

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[teeteringhead]

I don't think the Army are reducing their standards, although fewer from Visibly Ethnic Minorities (I believe that's the OK phrase) complete training.

The buzz I heard was that it is an example of the spinners being spinned. In order to achieve their VEM recruiting target, the Army were indeed recruiting those who did not meet the "normal" standard. Unsurprisingly, many failed to complete basic training. However as the targets were for numbers recruited and not actually trained, targets were met without lowering standards.;)

[I_stood_in_the_door]

Grim,

TUT TUT! Caps mit bust mit head mit gone!!

isitd

xx

:8

[Muppet Leader]

I know I’m a bit thick, but am I missing the point here?


Firstly, let me state for the record;
I am not a racist.

I have some very good friends whose skin is not the same colour as mine.
My Best Man at my wedding was as black as the ace of spades, but I never saw it.

I thought the inference of Mr G Weasels post, was most disturbing.

However, is not the simple expedient of targeting the recruitment of ethnic minorities in itself racist?
Why do companies / institutions have to have targets for race, age, disability?
A blind person once put a Braille book in front of me and said, “Read that then”.
When I informed him that I was unable, he replied, “Who’s disabled now then”?

The fact that this type of person is targeted, and treated in a different fashion, must be the whole root of the problem.

See the thread started by Round and Round, 12th November entitled “Is this crazy?”

Mr U Powered, I assume from your post that the hue of your skin is not quite as bleached as mine.
Can you shed any light on this?

What difference does the colour of your skin make?
All our internal bits are in the same places and we all bleed red!

[Engineer]

The question that I would ask is why does the military have to publish anything about it's acheivement at "coming top of the public sector in the Race for Opportunity (RfO) Benchmarking"

Is there a similiar brench marking for women in the armed services or any other minority group?

[Smoketoomuch]

This is such a fraught subject, but there is a real issue here. I can't say how it applies to the forces, but in other sectors of society we are being 'remodelled' by our government.

Labour has embarked on a social engineering programme, though it has been little noticed. They believe that all sectors of the job market should reflect the ethnic/social makeup of society as a whole. By necessity this means that positions and/or opportunities are in some cases no longer decided upon the merit of the applicant, but on other factors. When you stop appointing on merit then it inevitably reduces standards. Labour thinks this is a price worth paying if it results in some greater social good. There are numerous examples, from fast-tracking of ethnic minority employees in the police and other public sectors to university places awarded to so-called working-class applicants rather than better qualified people from good (nonstate?) schools. Their latest wheeze is giving preferment to people with lower grades when applying to medical school if they came from a poor background. What this will do to the quality of doctors in future years remains to be seen.

The problem with this policy, is that it creates resentment amongst people in non-favoured groups, reduces standards (probably), and belittles the efforts of people like 'underpowered' who got where they are entirely on merit.

I do not dispute that racism exists and should be vigorously tackled, and that there are some terrible state schools, but surely the answer is to address the problem at source. Labour has taken the opposite and arguably easier approach, to discriminate and thereby achieve equality of outcome, rather than equality of opportunity.

Sorry if this post offends anyone, will willingly delete if it does.

[Jackonicko]

Underpowered,

If you're who I think you might be, you're a complete credit to the service and your community (in aircraft and ethnic terms). And I suspect you'll have had a basin full of racial abuse over the years, so I'd say that your reaction was not only justified, but entirely measured.

[BEagle]

This 'visible ethnic minority', are we allowed to say, 'Black', 'African', 'Coloured'...err, 'non-white' or what nonsense put me in mind of a tale about an organisation in the US which was required to recruit certain 'quotas' of racial groups. They faffed about with "'Indian' - nope, that's got to be something else...err, 'Native American'? Nope - 'native' is thought to be demeaning by some, then what about the Hispanic groups? Do we call them 'Mexican', or 'Spanish'... or what? OK - let's settle for 'person of color'..." Finally the boss had enough. "Listen idiots, this is what we'll do. We'll refer to every one of our employees as 'US Citizens' - OK?"

I don't recall any real incidents of racism in the RAF - apart from a bit of leg pulling. There was a wind up of some sort at one sqn when a Flt Lt Black turned up as a JP. The boys got a chap who was a second generation Jamaican immigrant to play boss (as was often the case for newcomer arrival spoofs!)...knock, knock. "Come in" (perfect Brit accent) - who're you?! "I'm Black, sir" said the unwitting victim. "No, idiot, I is black, you is white..WHO ARE YOU?" "But I am Black, sir..." "YOU TAKING THE PISS, BOY?" Followed by a huge grin when he couldn't keep it up any longer. Or the 234 Sqn mate of mine who couldn't remember whether he was Red or Yellow one day. "Are we Red or Yellow?", he asked.... "You is black and I is white, but we is Red!" came the response. The same chap also announced that he'd "..nearly blacked out completely when the anti-g air ran out on my last pull-out on the range" - then realised what he'd said. Knowing that the AOC (a South African) was going flying in a Hunter with another South African (back when apartheid was still going on in South Africa), on the same station the line chief found the blackest pair of FLMs he could track down to strap the two of them in. In perfect synchronisation two beaming faces appeared over opposite sides of the cockpit; the AOC roared with laughter at having his leg pulled!

As one ex-stn cdr once said to some daft trouble maker at a 'meet the locals' day who had objected to the term 'serviceman' as it 'discriminated against women', discrimination is only a problem when someone decides to make it such. There has never been a real problem in the RAF - and the so-called 'VEM's cringe with embarrassment when some political correcto decides to make an issue of EO bull$hit.

As one (you know who you are) PPRuNer once said at the EO brief, "What the hell is an 'invisible' ethnic minority? I'm an ethnic minority, I'm African - I just happen to be a different shade to most Africans!"

[Trumpet_trousers]

Quote:

....who had objected to the term 'serviceman' as it 'discriminated against women',



...take a look at our very own BBMF groundcrew profiles (via the raf website) to see this sort of buffoonery in action.......what, exactly, is a 'Senior Aircraftsperson' for f*ck's sake??:mad: :mad:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/groundcrew.html

[Grimweasel]

Guys.......sorry but you have the wrong jist on what I was trying to state. I'm not a racist and I believe in equality across all ranks and services.

What I was trying to alert people to was the way in which the Army has to champion itself by this post on the Mod web site.
As Muppet L said is this not a form of racism in itself?

PCness has already been implemented by this Labour government to the point that it stifles initiative and makes people think twice and dither in certain situations. And I'm not just talking about racism.

A highly contentious issue I know and one that stirs great emotion

[Capt. Manuvar]

I'm one of the visible ethnic minority shades of different color and origin........ for f%£%^ sake just call me black. My brother serves in the navy of one the former 'colonies' and spent a year with the RN recently. From what he told me very few 'indigenous' brits want to join the armed forces, and i noticed the same in the US while i lived there. In the west, people want freedom but very few are willing to fight for it. On the other hand there are many people in the third world who don't see 6 months in the middle east as too high a price to pay for a better life in the west.
There is a lot of rasicm in the UK armed forces even though it's on the decline. I disagree that ethnic colors of visibilty or whatever you call us now have it easier as racism can severely affect personal performance. Maybe that explains why a lot of them don't make it through basic training as someone said above. How can you perform well in an organisation that relies heavily on teamwork and comradirie(spelling) when you feel you're not wanted.
I'm personally against positive discrimination as i don't see the long term benefits. I would have joined the RAF/RN as an aircrew but my eyeballs are visibly ethinicall minority something:E . So its civil flying for me.
Capt. Manuvar

[Blacksheep]

Speaking as an ex- Crab of colonial origin - aren't all Pongoes khaki?

A lot of decidedly non-European types wearing the Queen's brown suits protect the oilfields over here and I wouldn't think of suggesting that any of them aren't up to the highest standard.