Cape Town ATC

[bladestrap]

During the last couple of months, I have noticed that some of the Cape Town ATC, especially the Tower Controllers, seem to battle when the traffic gets a bit much. Not long ago I was flying around on a Sunday, and experienced a "panicky" Tower Controller when he had a helicopter training at Threshold 34, a Jetranger wanting to get airborne from ABC, another RObbie airborne from Base 4 and wanting to cross the active, Air Malaysia at the hold for departure, a SAA Airbus waiting in turn, and Nationwide on Long Finals.

The Robbie airborne from Base 4 was told to wait on the Western side, The Jetranger was told to wait on the ground at ABC, and so it went........delaying traffic and it was clear that the ATC was nervous. Is this normal? I am of the personal belief that some of the ATC at CPT International are not very competent, and the moment the going gets a bit tough, (About 5 or 6 movements at once) the boys struggle. They would never make it at JHB or FALA on a busy day.

Come on guys, get jacked up and provide the pilots with good service. At the moment, I believe its not on standard. Any comments from you guys out there??? BigmanATC, Goldfish???? Lets hear why the light aircraft and helicopter pilots and instructors get so annoyed with the lengthy delays and departure or arrival clearances. Its very, very frustrating hanging out at the hold or waiting to cross the active in a heli to 34, orbiting on downwind for 10 minutes just because Nationwide is on a 15 mile final.

Is it about spacing, speed, competence, incompetence, nervousness or what?????? I would love to hear.:confused:

[The Claw]

Ever thought that maybe someone is training? :oh:

Reminds me of my first solo, when some dick in a flashy King Air complained to the tower that my circuit was too wide :confused:

[bigmanatc]

Does sound a bit slow but then again I can`t comment cause I`m not in the country.........however, I suggest you give the boss man a call....Big Mac.....have a beer with him and get the "picture"......dunno if you`re a regular CT pilot but from past experience it helps if the ATC`s and Pilots have a regular get together where all these issues get addressed informally...braai`s , pub nights etc...thats how me an Mac did it in the past......

If you ask nicely...he might even play the bagpipes on top of the tower at sunrise...!!

[Goldfish Jack]

Aaah here comes Goldfish!

At first I thought I should treat this posting with the respect from whence it came, but after the laughs that it brought in the radar room and prompting from my colleagues, here we go....

(It always amazes me at how expert some pilots are at being ATCs. I would love to see them in such situations - they often can't even control one aircraft - I wonder how they would more than one)

In controlling aircraft, there are often many factors that one needs to take into consideration. To compare CT to JS or LA, clearly shows your ignorance. JS does not have the amount of VFR flights we have and LA does not have the mix of heavies vs lights that we have. It is a given fact that CT has one of the hardest zones to control, with the heavies amongst light VFR trainers, helicopter pilots who often have no idea what/where they want to go and operate so far out of the CATS/CARS you can’t believe it ( want evidence = what about training everywhere except in the FAD200 or flying over built-up areas below 1000ft AGL, just to start off, or operating from unlicensed helipads, want me to go on?????) and then semi-serviceable retired fighters who also seem to want to disregard the CATS/CARS at every step. It requires massive amounts of juggling to ensure safe operations. [Ask a certain flying club what happens when their student got too close behind a B747-400 (oh did I mention they also had a highly experienced instructor on the aircraft when the aircraft was blown down the taxiway?) and we have not even got to the helicopters yet!!]

Bladedroop, as to being delayed, maybe you should realise a few things about flying and priorities. You are VFR training, whose priority according to ICAO is so low you just about can’t even see it. What is the problem with staying on the ground – DELAYS AT CT ARE FOR A REASON – SAFETY – If you were a fixed wing trainer you would be sitting at the hold, so what is the difference between holding on an helipad or at the holding point? An aircraft stationery on the ground is a very safe aircraft and can’t get in the way of anyone. As to you not being able to cross the airfield, with your expert knowledge of ATC and how it works, do you know the protection parameters for an aircraft on the ILS vs you trying to cross in front of them?

I think you also need to realise that we do have many junior controllers on duty and once they qualify, the only place for them to gain experience is in the tower. They do not become perfect people immediately like yourself and not make mistakes. They are also human and they also need to prioritise their traffic to ensure that the other pilots can operate safely. It amazes me to hear that you say you are frustrated having to wait, when you are VFR of no consequence to anyone, but yourself. Have you ever taken time to visit the ATSU and see how they operate and the problems we are having with taxing aircraft at the moment, due to the WIP on the apron? CLEARLY NOT. Then maybe you will understand that one of the highest priorities we have at the moment, is to ensure whilst aircraft have to backtrack and cross runways continiously, is that we do not have a runway incursion. A helicopter is the least of ones worries during such times.

My greatest ambition at work at the moment is to work as an aerodrome controller and have helicopters flying where you do not have to continuously repeat your instructions, helicopter pilots that blatantly want to disregard the CATS/CARS and helicopter pilots that just don’t listen to what you tell them to do. There are some great helicopter operators at FACT, make no mistake – maybe you should listen to them.

So to answer your question: It goes about managing pilots who think they know a lot when they know nothing about ATC procedures at all. Just remember ATCs are human not super perfect human beings like you and if there is a delay it is because of SAFETY (refer to the Oxford English dictionary for a definition)

PS a visit to the tower would do you a world of good – what is an active – I think it is a SAAF term that has something to do with “runway”. The correct ICAO expression is “runway in use”. OH and what is long finals – one runway one approach one aircraft one FINAL.

We welcome criticism, please make it positive and be perfect before. Colleagues did I address the issues OK??????? – going to Forries to get ready for the PPRUNE bash

[DualDriver]

Aaah, Mr Goldfish Jack, now we all know who you are. Mr R.R, Right.

You go on about helicopter overflying built up areas below 1000'. What do you want them to do??? Disregard YOUR instructions of "at at below 1000 feet"? That just makes NO sense at all. It's funny that you are probably the ONLY ATC that has an issue with the helicopters. I have been in discussion with VARIOUS ATC's, and hardly any of them have the problem that you seem to have.

I actually thought this thread to be a bit harsh on you guys, but now?:yuk:

[Douglas Racer]

Excellent stuff, old bullet. Nicely put in a nutshell!! Them thar visits to the bowl by us flying types are long overdue. Confirm the Forries thing could be going down by its old name, "Stammtisch"? That's what it was called in the long gone past when 25 Sqn used to terrorize the airspace around your bowl!!

Jets are for moffies, pole a gooney!

[Goldfish Jack]

Dual driver - sorry u r wrong there mate - try again.

I am certainly not the only person that has an issue with helicopters - all I want to see is people operating within the law.

I also thought it a bit harsh on the junior controllers hence the reply - I am certainly going to defend all my colleagues no matter where they work, RR included!!

I must admit I can't remember when I gave a helicopter an instruction to ops below 1000ft - will ask management to check on my last few shifts and if I did I am sorry. And any case if you know you should not be below 1000ft AGL why do you accept a clearance which will cause you to flout with the law? But then there is so much flouting and disregard for common law in this country at the moment.........A law abiding citizen is a rarity.

My prime concern is SAFETY - both to parties in aircraft and below them (and helicopters as well). Lots of my colleagues (and family and friends and other pilots ) live in areas where aircraft fly a lot and the last thing I want is for someone to have to put their machine down on top of their houses, because they were low and had nowhere else to go. Chances are rare but one day........

[Stassiebal]

Hi All,

Personally I have never had any problems with Cape Town's ATC. Always thought that they were quite a friendly bunch of guys and gals who go out of their way to make room for the little guys. It is not very often that you get to do a touch and go in a little C177 at an International airport with a big old A340 on your behind!!! Also never a problem to cross the extended centreline when doing those lovley Peninsula flips.

The only time I was delayed was on my IR test ride. I got stuck in the hold at RIV for 45 minutes.... but it is down to my own stupidity. That is what you get for scheduling a IFR flight in a light twin at 8 in the evening when big iron from all over the place is inbound. Moral of the story.... pick you times. Obviously if you are flying a 152 at peak hours there's going to be a lot of movement and it will be difficult to just slot you in. (even though ATC usually get it right anyway)

All in all.... I would just like to say thank you for the service you guys provide down there.

Goldfish.... tell me.... how would I go about coming down to tower for a visit. Would love to pop in and say hi and spend some time looking at what you guys are doing down there!!!

Regards,

Dean

[Pontius' Pilot]

– what is an active – I think it is a SAAF term that has something to do with “runway”. The correct ICAO expression is “runway in use”.


I have minutes of the special meeting between Aeroports de Paris/ATM and IATA/Airlines on Runway Incursion Prevention at CDG dated 25 May 2004 in front of me, and they refer to the "runway in use" as the active.

I suppose they must have been trained by the SAAF as well.

[Goldfish Jack]

Dean

Probably the best way to visit the tower is by car and foot!!!!!!!!!

Hehe sick humour. No seriously we do have times you can come and visit the centre. Just phone and ask for the secretaries 9371125 and they will help you. It is like a serious building site at the moment, whilst we transition to the new equipment so it is not in good condition, but you are welcome.

We move to the new equipment about end Oct and then we will have a flashy new centre (world class stds, etc etc) which will be even better to visit

Dont forget: Most of my colleagues eat chocolate cake with their tea.......................

[Stassiebal]

Goldfish,

At the moment it looks like I'll only be back in South Africa round about end of October beginning November, so I'll come and have a look at the flashy new centre!

I'll remember the choclate cake!!

D

[CEP]

Morning all

As GJ says, give us a call, we'll be more than happy to show anyone around the centre - who knows, with the simulator up and running, if there's space and sim pilots available, we might even be able to get some of you guys behind a screen and let you have a bit of fun - then we'll throw in a couple of emergencies, etc. and see how much seat upholstery your behind can actually suck in at once!!! Offer is open if we can fit you in.
The more you guys know about what happens this side of the radio, the less bickering there will be. Bigmanatc is quite correct with his comments.

bigmanatc

Hello you old sand.......

Long time no hear! Ja, no one has asked nicely, so no one has heard them. Fancy a relief trip to Kimberley again, so we can never get invited back to stay in the accomodation? They were never ready for serious party-goers.

When are you in country again? Time for a good old reunion:E Quite amazing, of all the ATC's that you trained, only me and Stoffel left in the country, rest of them hanging around your own back yard. Sad, really.

[Captain Pheremone]

Well wouldn't it be nice if we could all get along all the time. I have flown fixed and rotary into and around CT (live in Shark territory) for several years and generally have no complaints and the service I have received has been professional.

It only takes one bad egg!!!!

After +20 years flying I will be the first to admit I don't get it rite,write,wright,right every time. Sorry!!!!

I didn't get it right in atrocious weather (not according to the Wxman???) in a chopper the other day and there by Muizemberg clipped the edge of the CTR by about a mile inside IMC.

As I say, sorry!!!! however after I landed and phoned the tower to talk to the controller(tower) I was smugly informed that it was too late and an incident had already been filed against me.

So be it.

All is fair in love and war and the rule-book. But believe me, at 50' trying to keep the beach in sight in unforecast rain and clouds I don't believe I delayed his 15 000'IFR traffic as much as he led me to believe I did.

Yup that's the rules!!!!! Anyway to the others who are willing to talk first. Good on ya!!!

Keep it safe.

[126,7]

Isn't it funny how the cool surfer dudes in Cape Town act like they are God's gift to aviation....sad but often proven to be the mentality!
It would help if some of the CPT lads and girls could visit some of the other centers/twrs around the world and see that there are ways of working very high traffic loads in very complex airspace and still be polite. IMHO helicopters are the easiest to accommodate as they do tend to stay low( especially in IMC) and are across an active rwy before you know it. No delay to anybody and job well done. You are ATCs and not traffic cops!!
As to the chap that filed the incident report:
They are necessary to improve safety and not used to punish pilots who are trying to bring the aircraft and the pax home safely. Everyone can work together and an attitude like "punishing the pilot" is certainly misplaced!

[bigmanatc]

Come on Cape Town ATC...there`s a prune bash shortly.....go over an be nice......your work will be easier if its a mate on the other side of the mic.

CEP
Unfortunately not soon..... Drop me your email address to

[email protected] so we can set up a bash.....Star of the west maybe...????

126.7
I agree....choppers are easiest, dunno what the dudes problem with the Captain was as he was ultra low level.......maybe its a new controller.....

To the CT ATC who increp`d Captain Pheremone

Very early in my career I increp`d a pilot when maybe some dialog would have been fine....to this day, 20 years on, that pilot does not speak to me....and he`s now a very well known display pilot....I learned a lesson there and have not increp`d another pilot again, anonymous or not. If the pilot does`nt call, I call him and it always ends with us being friends........so, whoever you are there in CT, chill bro....make friends

[Alfred Kamara]

I might be new here and not a South African, but i have just seen good and heard good of Cape Town atc's and all atc's

once again I can jsut refer back the rest of africa and needless to say SA atc's are GREAT !

i did a course in the uk on 2 different runways and i am sorry their standard was not very good . but i must admit i think they where under training.

all the best to atc's at cape town and it will be great to meet some of the atc's.

cheers

alf

[Goldfish Jack]

Alfred

Thanks for the good words

There is a very common misconception about increps in the RSA. In terms of ATNS licence, they are obligated to report any incidents to the CAA.

Incidents are filed not to "nail the pilot" as many pilots think. They are also used for statistical purposes and to see if there are any trends that are occurring and for the CAA to put steps in place to manage common occurrences.

(People often think what the hell and do also not file reports when they should, which also has the effect that an occurence which could have been prevented, can re-occur with fatal consequences later on - so there is also that side to consider)

In terms of the operating agreement with CAA, ATNS obligates it personnel to report contradictions to the CAA. ATNS is not a law enforcement agency, but they are required to manage certain actions and ensure the correct steps are taken when incidents occur. Hence the filing of incident reports.

Capt Pheremone, please also remember that the ATC will often file a report against one pilot, when you think you have done nothing wrong because the third party (other IFR aircraft PIC might have complained about you being there). I know this has happened to me before, where one pilot complained about another pilot and said he was going to report the matter to the CAA. To cover myself I also filed a report - happened so long ago I cant remember if anything came of it.

[Captain Pheremone]

Ta Goldfish.

Yeah look we all have good and bad days. On the flip side I do a lot of training at thresh 34 and get nothing but co-operation and get left to myself with boings boinging in and out. Something that shows fantastic appreciation of helicopter flight envelopes etc.

So far I have heard nothing from anyone anyway - will wait and see. I have broad shoulders. Very well balanced person, I have a chip on both shoulders.
Chow

[Alfred Kamara]

I spend a wonderful day in the Cape Town International area, flying a bit and so on.
what i honestly can not understand is that flight training could still be allowed on such an airport.
and what i read in other threads is that it is gettin more busier by the day with new flights in and out.

surely there msut come a time when they will not be allowed to operate training in CT circuit on a permanent basis ?

or what do I say ?

[Alfred Kamara]

as an african i would think i t is common courtesy to make a follow up statement or at least answer back afte ryou made acusations against someone.

it seems clear blade un strap do not have much else to complain about.

cape town atc's = professional people !!!

[Goldfish Jack]

Thanks Alfred for the very kind words

We look forward to the days when you will be a regular customer around here.

Good meeting you last night and have a sae journey back to gambia.

Cheers my bro!