Freedom Air Direct entry Commands

[bigyellowbus]

I hear that there are some commands being filled by pilots from Big Brother ( Air NZ ) at Freedom when Freedom have F/O's who have the requirements for a command. I also believe there are quite a few unhappy captains not to mention F/O's about this arrangement and that they aren't exactly going to be meet with open arms. Infact life for them is going to be very uncomfortable.

[Obie]

Meaning what? Bigyellowbus.

[propaganda]

ByB,
Freedom pilots are on the ANZ seniority list, therefore equal bids available to all, as long as you're senior enough...What's the problem !!!!!!. or are you saying it's all oneway traffic....that would upset the troops.

[Cloud Cutter]

Yep, it's a two way streat. If Freedom pilots are able to bid for NZ jobs based on seniority, why shouldn't it work both ways? I'm sure Freedom pilots are not childish enough to go all Cathay Pacific on D/E Capts, (I certainly hope not).

[slamer]

ByB

Disappointing to hear you use this threatening tone! I have not heard one Ex Fredoom Pilot spoken of/to in this manner when joining the mainline, despite some misgivings (hope your not typical)

Many of us are disappointed these (ANZ) people have taken SJ cmmds, in effect starting a "B" scale within Air NZ Seniority, having said this, it's all within the Rules of the 2002 contract so we must live with it (you included) .

I suggest you start sounding less like an Aero-club Wannabe, and more like a Professional.


PS: Cloud Clutter could you explain your last sentence re CX

[Cloud Cutter]

Was talking about pilots joining during recruitment ban, not comparing situations, just how new crew were treated.

[slamer]

CC,

Thanks......dont think I will go there!!!

[BCF Breath]

They are probably no more put out than the Air NZ pilots who will miss out on slots when the Freedom pilots decide to come across for jobs in Air NZ.

That's life Jim! :D

[julietmikepapa]

BCF et al

No NZ pilot will EVER be disadvantaged by a Freedom pilot coming to Air NZ, it is the NZ agreement that allows this arrangement to exist after all. The Freedom pilots were attached to the very BOTTOM of the seniority list, therefore they can only currently bid for S/O wide body slots, and the odd 733 F/O slot. Obviously this will change over time, a very long time. Meanwhile, F/Os at Freedom who are more than qualified to take the upcoming command slots are being shoved aside by NZ pilots taking these positions. No ill will towards those coming, just the union that has allowed it to happen and will not protect the rights of ALL of its members.

[Slimpickens]

JPM
I know at least one of the Air NZ 737 f/o's coming your way has been trying for some time to move to an s/o slot but was not allowed to move by the company, whilst in the meantime Freedom f/o's were allowed to move into those s/o slots over the top of him. Not disadvantaged by Freedom pilots? Probably not, actually - disadvantaged by the airline and the rules of the contract, which is now happening the other way. Fair?

Whilst I am sure there are some Freedom f/o's who are more than qualified/experienced to be captains, there are also a couple of huundred f/o's and s/o's in the parent company who are also qualified for the position, who have seniority, and who have for some years watched potential jobs/commands go south to the 100%-owned budget subsidary whose setup could be viewed as another wedge to reduce pilot pay and conditions (and in NZ that was already coming off a pretty low base). Hopefully the rot has been stopped.

A primary right of all group jet pilots that the union strives to uphold is that of seniority - Freedom guys now have those seniority rights as well, which will someday have them in the seat of a 777 or 7e7. Not bad considering their chances of that happening prior to 2002. Take a step back and look at the big picture.

As an aside, given the massive hiring likely at Air NZ over the next few years, and the fact that you must now pass the Air NZ interview process to get into Freedom - why join/apply to Freedom? Will a self-funded rating still be required at Freedom? Will guys not eligible for an Air NZ interview use Freedom as the backdoor onto the Air NZ seniority list?

Slamer - agree with you re 'B' scale, however if you have spent 8 years stuck in band one, in one type/seat maybe, and have 7000 or 10000 hours or more, the chance to sit in the left seat AND get a pay rise can't be overlooked. Perhaps the next fight with the company should be over pay parity for all 737 pilots (wasn't an original proposal for Air NZ to crew Freedom?). Professional pilots shouldn't have to work for peanuts in a Low Cost Carrier - look at the pay Southwest and Ryanair guys are getting. :D

[flap35]

You can debate this one forever.

The advantages favour the NZ pilots to a much larger extent than SJ. Why else would it be in the NZ contract and not in the SJ contract. ALPA would never do anything that was not in the best interests of the NZ pilots above all else. Just look at the Mount Cook scope clause.

An NZ pilot can take a position in SJ, freeze his super etc and move back when he feels like it.

An SJ pilot can move to NZ but has to go to the bottom of the pay regardless of how long he has been at SJ. The original SJ pilots were placed at the bottom of the GOP list, not by date of joining.

Some people at NZ and APLA find it hard to understand that many people actually want to be at SJ and not NZ.

NZ and ALPA should leave SJ alone.

[max rate]

What Mt Cook scope clause?:confused:

[julietmikepapa]

SlimP - request you read F35's post, and try and understand it.

F35 - nail on the head stuff. It is very hard for most NZ pilots to understand that a lot of Freedom pilots actually want to be just that, and not an NZ pilot. Obviously all NZ pilots want to be Freedom pilots, and fpr that matter Mt Cook pilots, given the clauses in their contract.

Debate will no doubt rage forever however.

[Slimpickens]

JMP
I would suggest many SJ pilots don`t want to be SJ pilots (long term), and just use SJ as either a stepping stone to somewhere else (how did your Dragon interview go?) or - now - a backdoor into Air NZ.
F35/JMP - Scope clauses for SJ and Mt Cook are certainly there to protect the pay and conditions of Air NZ pilots, but this has a trickle down effect to every professional pilot. If an Air NZ 747 captain was only getting paid $50k, what would a Saab/ATR/Beech captain be getting? If you have been an airline pilot for a while (over the honeymoon period) you realize all that matters is time off and money. Their is a balance to be struck, but even better - why not have both! The company, of course, would rather you had neither (although not necceserily for malicious reasons - their imperitive is to make a buck) and so a balance is sort between the two parties, negotiaitions take place (enter ALPA) and hopefully a win-win contract is agreed to. A good contract is harder to achieve when some pilots are willing to buy ratings or bypass seniority with DEC just to get that coverted `jet job`. And when that `jet job` doesn`t pay that well or give you the time at home with the kids, you can then aspire (by leaving or moving to the big-companies seniority list) for a better job. Which perhaps explains the turn-over of pilots at Freedom.
Back to my question in my previous posting - given the pay/conditions/no super etc at Freedom, why apply when Air NZ is hiring flat out?

[MOR]

Slimpickens is absolutely right.

What most of the youngsters here don't realise is that once you have got over the "wow" of flying a nice shiny airliner, and maybe got your command, it really does become a matter of time off and salary.

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. These days, I would much rather be home with the kids than two hours into a long trip, bored out of my tree, trying to convince the F/O that I really am paying attention.

Because that is the reality of airline flying - mostly boring cruise, crap hotels, endless positioning and getting hauled out of your bed at 5am because somebody has gone sick.

Think about it as you make you plans to buy a type rating...