Legal action against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying services(Europe)

[sanjo69]

LEGAL ACTION AGAINST NAUNTON PUGH t/a
CAPE FLYING SERVICES (EUROPE)

• The legal case BB 301870, AW Young (v) Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) in a full hearing was part heard at Cambridge County Court on 25th March 2004 and thereafter at Peterborough County Court on 25 June 2004 to its conclusion.

• On the 25th June 2004, District Judge Wharton issued Judgment against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) for a breach of contract and awarded damages (£376) and costs (£461), total £837. After hearing all the evidence submitted by both parties the court had found that the contract being solely his responsibility and as a result of a breach resulted in damages and costs being awarded to me. Damages suffered as a result of the course attended at Cape Flying Services in George, South Africa and the failure being fully purchased through Cape Flying Services (Europe), costs being awarded in pursuit of the case.

• No grounds for appeal where entered and although Naunton Pugh sought permission to appeal this was refused and therefore not granted. He was given 14 days to pay the awarded decision, needless to say and from past experiences, this date deadline expired on Friday 9th July 2004, he has not paid the money which may now result in him being pursued by other legal means to recover the full debt that could include the seriously considered possibility of declaring him bankrupt, such as my determination.

• The awarded figure is more than he and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services in South Africa says is owed but less than my claim, however, principally a good, fair and just result considering all the facts presented.

I previously posted a thread called Cape Flying Services (South Africa) on 3rd May 2003 under African Aviation to essentially highlight my difficulties with “booking” and attending a PPL course at Cape Flying Services, George, in April 2003, “booking the course” through an “agent” Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe). The post had created an enormous amount of varying and interesting perspectives relating to all factors of aviation, the agent, school and indeed myself etc. Despite receiving over 100 replies with 5000 hits, sadly, on 3rd June 2004 the thread was closed.

However, I promised that I would report back to the forum when the legal case and due process was concluded. As this is now the case I would therefore greatly appreciate and request that this thread be allowed to continue further from this posting to allow fellow ppruner’s the opportunity to express their thoughts in a constructive way as the hope would be to help to prevent this sort of difficulty happening in the future and it is not some kind of personal vendetta, because, when you think hard about it, it will have an effect on African Aviation, irrespective, of which side of the fence you are sitting.

The legal action case was never ever fought or considered on the ability or arguably the lack of ability to complete the PPL course in the advertised 21 days, this point was always going to be obviously too difficult to prove for a lot of reasons, at the time, this was furthest from my mind; the trip halfway across the world to attend the course, diarise every single failed moment and gather documentary evidence whilst at the school for the purposes of obtaining a full refund upon return to the UK was simply not on the cards.

An example, say, in good faith, you paid upfront for 600 hours flying and only received 400, irrespective of the total hours, and say, only achieving solo status at 374 hours, it does not matter, because you would and expect a refund of the difference, not expect to have to go to drag this point alone through the courts and have yourself branded having a criminal record, unless speeding or a parking ticket is now regarded a being criminal, as labelled by the other “party”, that is Mr Todd during this process. Quite simply, the defence stated, that I refused to fly on the last two days because I went to Cape Town when quite obviously, I flew all the allocated time within the period that I attended the course, as seen in my flight log book. In fact, this successful point alone was my main point in my first letter of complaint to both of them back in 22nd April 2003, it is clear, a refund was not going to be paid under any circumstances for whatever reason only best known to Naunton Pugh and Gerald Todd.

Is it not a little bit silly or even suspicious that in the end, the simplest and easily resolved problems come back to bite your backside or land on someone else’s lap! like, refund for untaken flying time, overcharge on invoice and accommodation difficulties etc, notwithstanding, at least 8 attempts to resolve the whole thing have gone brutally unnoticed, settled or even counter proposed, not just even to avoid mounting costs on both parties. In fact, certain documents supplied by Naunton Pugh in his defence clearly and without question indicate a concerted effort by collusion with Gerald Todd to “keep this matter alive by dragging the process out” Surely, this whole affair is beyond belief and may raise some serious questions, certainly surrounding the business relationship between Cape Flying Services in South Africa and Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) but, most importantly, no apologies, just character assassination, collusion and fabrication between Naunton Pugh and Gerald Todd, there is documentary evidence in support this statement through some extraordinary evidence of conversations between them. But let’s face it, they did have over a year to try and think up something plausible. It was expected that I was not going to complain, because nobody will or does complain about or to Naunton Pugh or Gerald Todd, even when they both agreed (as is documented) that monies are owed, that is, until they met me!

Thought of the day: When considering any of their services, just think, what will happen if any problem develops, however, small and insignificant, who is going to resolve it for you? ...YOU DECIDE!

Just don’t call Mr Pugh or Mr Todd you might as well call in the Ghostbusters!




Regards and Happy Flying,


Sandy Young :ok:

[Amabokoboko]

Yyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnn:bored:

No, maybe that's not fair. Thanks ... I guess

[Gunship]

Yawnnnnnnnnnn

How more boring can you be Sandy ?

Any Flying rumours or News for us perhaps ?

Then again you aint the flying type - that is obvious ...:}

[Teignmouth]

I think you got it right the first time!

I'm thinking of offering a course in grammar...any takers?

[Cardinal Puff]

Now, now kiddies....

If Mr Sandy has had a problem and dealt with it and wishes to share the experience on an open forum I reckon that's his right. We all see things in a different way and if we wish to refute his statements with something positive that's also good. Gotta back up whatever we say though............

[NauntonPugh]

Alexander Webster Young has entered a long diatribe regarding a case he brought against me, Naunton Pugh, and which he claims to have won in court.

The facts:

1 His original claim was for over £4,600.
2 He got judgement at Blackburn county court but I later obtained judgement to set aside on the grounds that that court had given judgement 'ahead of time' - ie the judgement was made before the legal period of 28 days, from the date of notice of action being served, had ended. I also got the case transfered to Cambridge county court.
3 In his first attempt at that court, A W Young failed and the judge made some very clear observations about the validity of A W Young's claim. at the judge's invitation A W Young made an'offer' to settle of something over £2,000. I refused.
4 A W Young then tried to get summary judgement. This was thrown out because the judge very clearly said that I had a very good case of defence and also said that it could be ruled that civil action should actually be taking place in South Africa. He also made comments about the extent of A W Young's case, stating that the sole question appeared to him to be how many hours of flight training did A W Young pay for, and how many did he receive, and if any money was due back to him whom should pay? A W Young then made a written 'offer' of over £600 to settle. I refused.
5 A W Young went back to Cambridge county court, where Judge Wharton part heard the matter, ruled there was a case to be made agaisnt m,e but that A W Young's claim for over £4,600 was 'clearly absurd' and that he should rethink his claim. He adjourned at 5pm and the matter was transferred to Peterborough county court to get it on the list earlier than had it remained at Cambridge.
6 Judge Wharton there ruled that A W Young was not entitled to £4,600 but that he would give judgement in his favour for 11 hours paid for but not flown plus costs of the matter, including an overnight hotel room after the Cambridge hearing and travel costs. You should understand that an average PPL student goes solo in around 14-15 hours, a good one in around 10-12 hours and a not so good one in around 20 hours. A W Young flew just over 32 hours duel before he was competent enough to go solo. After 15 hours of instruction CFS clearly told him that he would need more than the 45 hours minimum demanded by the PPL course. He gave himself just three weeks to do the course, spent so much time trying to go solo that he failed to do more than a few hours ground school (and told the judge that, in effect, there ws no ground school on offer, whereas his own witness, Leigh Griffiths, told the court that he did 'as much ground school as possible, two to three hours a day at least') and left a day early.
7 I asked Judge Wharton for leave to appeal, which he refused.
8 However, I am still entitled to appeal and this I have done on the grounds that Judge Wharton's decision was malfounded - that is to say he gave it on an incorrect basis as he ruled that A W Young had a contract with me, whereas I say that I act only as agent for Cape Flying Services and that A W Young's contract for flying tuition and ground school was with Cape Flying Services CC, South Africa.

You can therefore see that it is not unreasonable that I have not paid A W Young anything. The matter will await my appeal hearing.

A W Young can go ahead with any action he likes to try to make me bankrupt. It will cost him money to enter the action.

It will mean that any assets that I have personally (ie not jointly with my wife) will be frozen by the court. First call on any such assets is to the Inland Revenue. Second call is to any bank to whom I owe money. Third call is to unsecured creditors, of which A W Young would be one.

The fact is that I have minimal personal assets, so any such action he takes would result in him getting nothing.

The man obviously loves playing with the law. He also obviously loves making these matters as public as he can, via pprune etc.

Anone who has followed this matter by reading his postings on Pprune may well take the view that he is vindictive, vengeful and downright nasty.

They may also take the view that he has damaged the good reputation of Cape Flying Services by making libellous statements in his postings and has identified himself as the author of such libel by posting an Email monicker that appears on all the Email correspondence on my original file on his course booking.

That damage could run to a court claim against A W Young for £500,000 by Cape Flying Services.

Watch this space.....

Thank you for your time to read this,
Naunton Pugh

[Rhodie]

I must admit I'm with CFS and Mr. Pugh on this one...

Mr. Young - you failed the grade, you screwed up, you couldn't cut it... etc... etc...

DEAL with it - move on - find a hobby that you CAN succeed at. (besides wasting the courts time).

I must also admit, maybe a little civil action against Mr. Young for defamation, libel et al may be in order.

R

[Gunship]

Cardinal Puff,

I pressume you forgot about the previous borrinngggg threads and posts by Sandy.

What is he trying to proof ?

We have "tested" CFS and they came out tops. I have / think we all have said what needed to be said about them. (pos and neg's)

Just because he has a toffy to chew he hangs out his dirty laundry here on PPRUNE. (again)

Sandy, be a real man and proof it all in court and tell those that care when you win / loose your case over a few pounds.

CP : All I am trying to say (again) - what else excpet blowing up this "case" has Sanjo69 done for any PPRUNER or posted ANY direct flying related posts ?

None - just his little court case ... shame ... yawnnnnnnnnn ....

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz:suspect: :hmm: :suspect:

[prospector]

Naunton Pugh

You say an average student needs 14-15 hours to solo,must be using quite a complex aircraft. I went solo in 4:20, in a PA18 cub, a friend soloed in 3:30 in a PA28, although a few special circumstances with that one. This is going back 45 years, surely the ball game hasnt changed that much. From memory the average to solo would be well under 10 hours in the majority of cases, and that was using a tail dragger.


Prospector

[126,7]

Prospector
I think it is frowned upon these days to send students solo with less than 10 hours. Thats what they told me when I did my test. Maybe I was a lousy student and they didn't want to hurt my feelings:}

[currawong]

32 hours to solo?

You could train an earthworm to ride a bicycle in that time...

Hang glider, chopper, 747 or whatever,you have to be a faster learner than that - aviation will throw plenty at you that is not in any training programme.

Sorry to hijack the thread but the original topic was boring as bat sh1t!


PS 126,7 - I think maybe it is the shareholders feelings they are worried about, not yours.

One day, just for a laugh, I am going to go to a flying school or aero club and claim to have not flown before. Just to see how long it takes for them to figure it out. And of course see if it takes 10 + hours to solo. :}

[Staller]

NP on SY:
"Anone who has followed this matter by reading his postings on Pprune may well take the view that he is vindictive, vengeful and downright nasty. "

Whereas others may take the view that the defendant is is vindictive, vengeful and downright nasty!

CFI-CFS on PPrune
"Not going to post or probably even open this site again, unfortunately it provides a medium that can be abused by any individual to discredit whoever they like with very little if any, recourse…"


What a bunch of hypocritical *******:

I think that the whole story will make great reading in a popular UK Aviation magazine!And, this case may pave the way for future scenerios.

I fear this could signal a downturn of UK students visiting a certain flight school in South Africa, my only hope is that is does not tarnish the overall appeal of a PPL in Southern Africa and the legitimate 'what you see is what you get' or 'what you fly is what you pay for' type Flight Schools which do exist. Sandy should be praised for his resiliance and giving people a choice to see the facts in black and white, opening peoples eyes to just how big a decision it is picking a school abroad, when frankly you know very little about them. I expect to receive a torrid of abuse now from a certain person who operates the said flying school. Just remember, "...Sticks and Stones..."

CFS has had many a happy customer, THAT IS NOT IN DOUBT, they have also had many an unhappy customer and it is the treament of these customers that is the issue and one I personally find repulsive and unproffesional.

If Sandy has only tought prospective Students one thing, let that be

"Buyers Beware"

Fly safe, fly happy.

P.S If I had seen this forum before I chose where to do my PPL, CFS would never have made the shortlist.

[prospector]

It would appear that my previous posting re time to solo is completely outdated.

The following news article from a Coroners report after a fatal in a Piper Tomahawk, pilot lost it in turn from downwind to base, impacted in built up area, hit power pole first, then into front yard of house.

"Up to the day of the accident the student pilot had flown a total of 57.5 hours, 50.6 with another pilot (Must have been an instructor??) and 6.9 hours solo".

"In a statement to police Mr Drovers regular flight instructor described him as "very competent". "Whenever I gave James a forced landing or an engine failure after take off or landing? he would always head toward an open area like the beach or golf course. He would never have headed towards houses. His ability to fly at low speed was good".

Obviously the ball game has changed considerably.

Prospector

[silverknapper]

I agree with some of stallers sentiments. Whilst SY has laboured his point to death, he may well have opened peoples eyes to the shoddy treatment some people may expect at CFS - especially if they don't make the grade first time.
Not saying he is accurate in his description of the school - I've never been. But if it encourages people not to take bad treatment lying down this is good.
Having been at FTC for 6 months, I know only too well the treatment that can be handed out to the weak willed student. It ain't pretty. All too often foreign students are treated as cash cows, stuck a long way from home with 40 000 rand in their pocket. And all too often this is based on an unrealistic sales pitch from an agent based in the students home country. Once said student is in country, it is difficult to change schools, especially if they are new to aviation and have only a limited amount of time off work. So do they go home without trying? Only if they don't mind waiting till next year to learn.
As I have emphasised above this is not aimed at CFS - I don't know them and don't want to having seen this de generate. My point is he has raised awareness of poor practice.

Cheers

SK

[George Tower]

Prospector old chap I'm not sure I agree entirely with the main thrust of the points you are making. I think it is bad form to get into some sort of a pi$$ing contest as to who solo-ed with the fewest hours. So many things affect this from weather, to a/c maintenance and the sbility of both pupil and instructor. Also if someone was to learn at a busy airport like FACT it would be impossible to do 40 hours flying without spending at least 3 hours taxi-ing:zzz: for example.

Another factor is the I know the general flying areas in use for both George and Cape Town are about 10-15 minutes from the airport so this adds time before the student can be "let loose" to fly as such.

A more general point is that these days anyone can become a pilot if they have the money. That lack of selection means that there will be some who take more time than others. Flying schools are not charitable organisations so they have to take virtally anyone that pitches up with cash and wants to fly even if this means you get the guy who has more than 50 dual hours before his solo.

I agree that the quote from the deceased pilot's instructor wasn't very coherant but I believe he can be given a bit of latitude given he's just witnessed a guy kill himself.

[prospector]

George Tower,
It was to point out that the average time to solo appears to have increased quite markedly in the last few years that was the reason for my original post.

You bring up some good points, one that is very relevant is the ability of both the student and the instructor.

Perhaps we were luckier in the old days with instructors who had done their apprenticeship with the Air Forces of the world, well rounded experience before being let loose as civilian instructors.

There are no doubt many competent instructors who are not products of the military, but many are only half a step ahead of their students. Unfortunate, but a sign of the times.

I would have to disagree with you when you state flying organisations have to take on anyone who fronts up with the cash, there must be a proportion of people who front up but should be told that they do not have the requisite skills.

Prospector

[TomBola]

prospector,

I think you're quite a few years behind the times. I also did my first solo in a tail-dragger nearly 40 years ago and even then, while most students solo-ed in around 10 hours, the average was probably 7 or 8 for fixed wing. Helicopters are a bit different and usually take a little longer.

I also trained with the military and when I became a civil helicopter flying instructor, it was reckoned that around 10 hours was a good figure to give the student enough experience to survive an engine failure in the circuit in a helicopter, even if he seemed to be making good progress - after all the fear factor can make people do silly things and with an inexperienced student in a helicopter they can then turn out to be rather fatal!

[MercenaryAli]

Amateur dentists? - I don't think so.....amateur medical doctors?..I don't think so?........amateur politicians?...well yes! probably most of them.....but amateur pilots???....why do we need them??......perhaps in this modern age of aviation it is time to have a simple but effective "filter" i.e. a sytem of "selection by aptitude" - usually works for the military etc. Each "wannabee" gets a sim ride to ascertain whether or not he/she/it has even the faintest hope of ever becoming a competent pilot. In the case of failure, that should be sufficient to keep that person's feet well on the ground!! And hey! if one has not gone "Solo" before 7 - 10 hours - just FORGET IT !!!!!!!

[Amabokoboko]

And hey! if one has not gone "Solo" before 7 - 10 hours - just FORGET IT !!!!!!!

Oh, come on! There are so many factors involved here that if you take such an arrogant view, you run the risk of disaffecting many perfectly capable young pilots.

At the school I train at, even at the fastest possible rate you are unlikely to start flying regular circuits much before 7 hours. Then you have to perform at least 4 error free circuits in a row before anyone is going to sign you out. You cannot tell me that someone solo'ing after 3 1/2 hours has been through exercises 1-11 (of the SA PPL, maybe it's different in the UK) plus become completely competent in circuits with the requisite radio work in what amounts to just over 2 lessons.

I did my intro training over a period of 5 months so I was often having to relearn skills and got unlucky on two occasions due to radio failure half way through the preliminary circuits and only solo'ed after about 22 hours. I may be no Chuck Yeager but I certainly don't deserve to be grounded. Or do I? :*

[currawong]

All valid points.

Colour that also with knowledge of several fatals that occured when people who were obviously not up to it were encouraged/allowed to continue to the point where they killed themselves/others when the signs were obviously there.

10+ attempts at exams to get a pass, for example.

Someone encouraged into an aircraft beyond their ability because some instructor wants the multi time, for example.

Anyone can fly a plane. Not everyone can do it well enough to survive the experience.

[Kopeloi]

All OK and understandable, except I can´t see why this individual had only 3 weeks to do entire course! As far as I can see , most problems in his case are originating from his own far too tight schedule.
Nikolai

[silverknapper]

Exactly - it was a bloody tight slot.
Not that a tight slot is a bad thing.......!

This is the root of the problem I feel, students being enticed by a PPL in 3 weeks. If a person is sharp and on the ball that is tight. If they are just average or even below average they have not much chance of this. A PPL is a big thing and shouldn't be de valued. If a school is going to try to sell them an intense PPL, there should be a selection process.
As for soloing in 45 mins or whatever you guys say you did it in then well done. Did you feel you were safe and could have coped with any probs that came up? Around the 10 hour mark is a level I feel gives enough practice at failures, stalls in all configs etc.

SK

[Kopeloi]

There obviously is exemptions but in my experience when the student is older than 25 years it will take longer to reach required standards. When over 40 it gets even more time consuming task and I am not talking about required flight hours only. I mean the entire process takes longer to complete. Don´t know the age of student in this case.
However, usually older students are well aware of their personal learning capabilities and intelligent enough to allow reasonable time for safe learning process.
Nikolai

[Staller]

He was enticed with the offer of a 3 week PPL without anyone ever taking into consideration apptitude and or natural ability, he was obviously concerned that the 3 weeks allocated was well short for his own progression and in my experience is too short for most budding PPL students. The whole "PPL in 3 weeks" advert is unrealistic and should be foretold with a long list of if, but's and maybes.

Regards

Staller

p.s
I see CFS-CFI has removed his thread recently. How bizarre he doesnt take time to defend the school!

[George Tower]

Lets see the evidence

The case here seems to me to revolve around the alledged mis-selling of a service. Let's see the evidence. Perhaps Sandy could post a copy of the advert he replied to so we can all judge for ourselves, whether the kind of advert he responded to would mislead.

[Cardinal Puff]

Howzit Guns

We all see things differently, boet. All I'm saying is that you see things one way due to positive experiences and Sandy sees things a little differently. These open fora are all about dragging the skeletons kicking and screaming out of the closet and rattling a few bones. If Sandy has a gripe I see no problem with him airing it as long as it doesn't get too personal (a bit of banter is always welcome as far as I'm concerned).

As far as being long winded and boring goes, we all go there occasionally and carping on can get a bit tedious but a friendly reminder along the lines of "@#$^&(& jou ^^*#$%!" sometimes gets results :E .

In the end we all learn something with any luck, which is what makes this place worthwhile........




Hope to see ya in CT next week if I don't get stuffed around here too much:ok: .

[NauntonPugh]

Lets get one thing straight. No-one enticed Mr Young to do anything. He is over 40 years old and made his own decision to try for the PPL in three weeks.

I told him that, if he wanted to do the course in three weeks, he would need to go to SA armed with a good working knowledge of the theory and he said he would do so.

I also told him that it would be better if he could find four weeks, but he said he could not.

I also told him that, in seven years of representing CFS in the UK & Europe, I had sent two students out to do the course in three weeks, and they both passed - one a lady who was given the course as her 50th birthday present.

So it can be done - if you work at the theory beforehand and are a good enough student pilot when doing the training.

CFS warned Mr Young after about 15 hours instructor training that, to gain the PPL, he was going to need more than the mandatory 45 hours minimum flying. As I've said before, he took over 32 hours hours before CFS would let him go solo. In the seven years I've worked with CFS I have never known a student I've sent out to take longer than 18.5 hours to go solo - and that was a student aged 67!!

I have yet to hear from the court re the outcome of my application to have the judgment set aside or revoked. When I do, whichever way the court decides, I'll post a factual note here.

Thank you for your time in reading this,
Naunton Pugh
Looking after CFS in the UK & in Europe.

[Staller]

Are you telling me that there is nothing in your literature that "sells" your three week PPL.

I FOR ONE WAS ENTICED Mr.Pugh

I WAS TOLD BY YOURSELF THAT I WOULD NEED A MAXIMUM OF FOUR WEEKS AND IT ACTUALLY TOOK ME SIX, AND THAT WAS PUSHING IT!!!!

Also, you forgot to mention the other 3 week PPL student you sent out who I understand was a journalist of some description and was reporting on the "3 week PPL " falacy, con, heist whatever you want to call it. I also understood CFS pulled out all the stops to PASS him and there was rumour that he wasnt even upto PPL standard yet was still passed on his GFT.

You may be looking after CFS in the UK and Europe but you sure aint lookin after the clientele, just your £££!


:yuk:

[prospector]

Caveat Emptor

Prospector

[B Sousa]

Staller writes:"I FOR ONE WAS ENTICED Mr.Pugh

I WAS TOLD BY YOURSELF THAT I WOULD NEED A MAXIMUM OF FOUR WEEKS AND IT ACTUALLY TOOK ME SIX, AND THAT WAS PUSHING IT!!!!"


A Long thread going nowhere. Even in the U.S. Army it takes nine months to spit out a comercially trained Pilot. Average solo was 8-12 hours if I remember.
Someone who wants to do stuff like this overnight HAD better be prepared to get his brain wrung out for sure. Specially considering all the BS that one has to accomplish with the CAA exams etc. Much harder than anything the FAA will dump on you.
I guess Stallers comments above just go to show some folks are smarter than others........or is it the otherway around.

[Stephen Stark]

I was in Gerald's office this morning and PPRUNE was discussed, on asking what Cape Flying Services is going to do about it, his response was "nothing, if a person takes the time to read the whole thing, it should quickly become clear what went down and what Sandy Young is all about...its getting old and people are tired of his nagging".



You ask why Gerald Todd hasn't responded, I believe he already has, and if you read his post, and all of Mr. Young's you might conclude that this whole thing is nonsense. I spent just over a year at Cape Flying Services, doing my PPL/CPL/TWIN/IFR and Instructors ratings, loved every minute of it. Today I work for Cape Flying Services and know exactly what they promise and don't. Cape Flying Services advertise a Private Pilots Course saying that it can be done in three weeks however suggesting a forth and even then there is no guarantee that you will meet the required standard. Here is a copy of a paragraph signed by both Mr. Young and Lee Gearing taken directly from the Terms and Conditions form:

" Understands that every effort will be made to complete training on time, but Cape Flying Services George CC will not be held responsible for circumstance causing delays beyond their control."

Mr Young says he paid for 45 hours and only got 33, fails to acknowledge that dual time costs more than solo, and that 5 of the hours were on a simulator. Besides this, I know for a fact that Cape Flying Services South Africa paid him back everything he wanted refunded, except for the non refundable deposit of 350 pounds paid to Naunton Pugh.

I do however find it interesting that both Mr Young and Mr Gearing wanted to return to Cape Flying Services. The fact that Mr Gearing was told to take his 3000 pounds and spend them elsewhere, peeved him off, as for Mr Young, well.... You have to be joking right?

I doubt we will hear from CFI-CFS on this site again, and Gerald didn't remove his post, the moderator did. It addressed a statement made by Mr Young regarding certain personal accusations. On this site its fine to accuse a company of wrongdoing, but don't dare have it the other way round,
you might note that your post was also adjusted.

[Staller]

Welcome aboard the great CFS bandwagon !!!!!!!!!

"where every customer is welcome aboard" , as long as you pay up we dont give a sh1t

"caveat emptor", a bit tricky from the other side of the world!!!

Theres a saying, for every satisfied customer another one is told of the satisfaction.

For every unsatisfied customer, another TEN are told of their dis-satisfaction.

To quote a relevant lyric

"The damage is done so I guess I'll be leaving."



:ok:

PS Mr Stark- In our country it is a common thing to find polite trust worthy people, who EVEN GIVE FLIGHT SCHOOLS A SECOND CHANCE!

[ou Trek dronkie]

Sanjo69

When will you realise you are utterly, hopelessly boring. Rhodie tells it right. You are trying to exploit this site for your own questionable purposes.
Give us all a break and disappear, please man.

oTd

Ever so sorry, this should have been on the " LEGAL ACTION AGAINST NAUNTON PUGH t/a CAPE FLYING SERVICES (EUROPE) "
page

Sorry

oTd

[ou Trek dronkie]

Sanjo69

When will you realise you are utterly, hopelessly boring. Rhodie tells it right. You are trying to exploit this site for your own questionable purposes.
Give us all a break and disappear, please man.

oTd

[4HolerPoler]

There have been no changes made to this thread by the moderators - I say again, threads will only be altered or removed if they contain foul language, are considered to be blatantly offensive to all or certain groups or if the post contains what is considered free advertising.

Often the threads are removed or altered by the poster themselves, creating a false picture of posts, subsequent to the altered post.

4HP

[currawong]

staller,

your country and trustworthy people in the same sentence may cause considerable mirth amongst many people in the southern half of Africa.

caveat emptor, is a bit tricky from the other side of the world.

So why did you deal with the other side of the world?

[ZS-NDV]

Dear All,

Just came across this thread by chance and as I also went to CFS in 1996/97 for a CPL/IR/Twin I wanted to add my comment to this list.

For one, I had the time of my life at CFS: Great people (Howzit Gérald!!:D, Frenchy here!) great place and great flying environment.

Throughout the 9 months of my training I saw a number of PPL students (one of which was to become my wife...;) ) and I have to say that there are those who can fly and those who are just not made for 3D environments and who should stick to cycling. Gerald, remember Amina? What was it, 55hrs before solo?

M. Young, sorry, you just didn't make the cut. No point in trying to find excuses and transferring the fault onto others. You can't fly and never will be able to. Just like I'll never be able to be an astronaut.

Time spent at CFS is one of the best memories I have and I would like to take the opportunity to thank all the staff there for their kindness and great attitude.

Hope to go there soon again!


Frenchy - ZS-NDV

[gary pols]

Hey Frenchy Nick,

Comment ca va, c'est bien ?

Gary, here the flying Dutchman !!

I also read this thread thread by chance.

Went to the US in 1996 and didn't regret that for one moment !!

All these promisses :mad: about flying Albatrosses and working in Africa as a pilot or Flight Instructor...........yeah sure........lets get real.....!

The problem is that ''man'' ( Male or Female for this matter ..!!) who have a dream.... which they believe in........ want to make this dream come true and rely on man's word and sincerety !!
And that just does not work in Aviation in general ..and Flight schools in particular !!!!!!

But other than that Nick, I am glad your still married to that very good looking Swiss lady....

And he.....I think you would be a great astronaut......as long as they don't build any low level powerlines up there......!!!!!!

Take care my friend....!!!

Nothing beats a Lear at 450...!!!

Gary

Votre Ami !!

[Staller]

Mr.Pugh my name was withheld through

"FEAR OF VICTIMISATION"
although I did post it once in the original thread regarding CFS. Mr Todd then did a U turn on his statement

"Staller please e-mail me, perhaps we can still resolve things, on the face of it this seems so silly, though I can’t remember what made me so angry.
Gerald Todd" He then BLANKED my attempts then later went on the verbally abuse me as I predicted.

Perhaps what made him so angry was the fact I had to visit a
SOLICITOR WITH ANOTHER CFS PUPIL WHILST MY PPL WAS DREADFULLY OFF TARGET AND HIS CPL THE SAME!!


Check your PM
Check my file,
check the facts.

Staller

P.S I didnt say you had sent the journalist to do the 3 week PPL.

[deadly-earnest]

I have heard about this string through the aviation grapevine.
By the sounds of your reply Mr %%%%% pugh.Your %%%%%bricks.Lets face it we know its not the first time you have %%%%% people off.It appears to me that you have been warned by the lawyers, if you have been keeping your assets minimum.Sounds like a man who is in big trouble.I think their coming to get you.
Well done sandy.
You got the %%%%% to squirm.and pay back a little of their fortune.
Their is a lot of people baying for pughs blood.Seeing sandys outcome will give them confidence to pursue action

You seem to have ignored the rules you signed up to. If you want to participate in this thread or on this forum you should realize ( as if you didn't already ) that it is not OK to hurl abuse at an individual, it is not OK to be offensive and it is not OK to use offensive language............OK !

[The Claw]

Strong words for your first post? Says loads about your credibility.


Maybe it is time for the moderators to kill this extremely boring thread? Everything that can be said, has been said. Lately nothing constructive has been said, and it has become nothing more than a flamer. :yuk:

[sanjo69]

Conclusion to legal action against Naunton Pugh trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe)

The background to this legal action against this UK based company “touting” for Cape Flying Services based in George is well documented and has been debated in depth within this forum under different headings. These threads, clearly, being of South African aviation interest, had attracted an enormous amount of feedback from the forum.

The reason for displaying this thread, again, is primarily, to inform the result to the forum, as I said I would, that the case has been finally concluded in my favour and to warn future, in particular, european based students of the possibility that should things go wrong, no matter how small and legal action is contemplated, when you have signed up with Naunton Pugh, that unless, he recently has clearly changed his literature, he is fully responsible for the course content and it’s implementation.

Therefore, as in my case, when Gerald Todd in South Africa and Naunton Pugh based in the UK decided to brush aside and ignore the problems encountered, no matter how small they seemed and then went on a rampant crusade of blaming each other and character assassination etc to get their point across was not only definitively wrong but displayed a unique perspective of customer service. In their minds you are clearly not supposed to complain or have any reason to!

It does not matter what my ability was or not during the PPL course attended at George in April 2003 but the facts as proven in a proper legal court indicated that a breach of contract existed and Naunton Pugh was fully responsible for the contract implementation.

This legal road has been long, costly, frustrating and in my mind totally unnecessary. Although the true cost of taking action is difficult to quantify the end result and principle is worthwhile. To date no apology has been received or likely to be received by either of these characters but I will gladly bank my bank guaranteed cheque for £887 (R10644) as this cheque will go some way to recover my true costs of this action.

Be careful, like always! When using any service offered by these characters and don’t be afraid to take legal action if the matter is not sorted to a satisfactory conclusion. Because, if you are correct in taking action it is always worth the hassle to get the right result! They like others will soon get the message that the student pilot will not tolerate being ripped off; in the long term, this can only be good for aviation training all over the world

Best Wishes

Sandy Young

[sanjo69]

Just to update the forum...

The legal case against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) has now been concluded.

After nearly 2 years of legal action and only after a visit from the bailiffs to his home in the UK that full payment of the awarded costs and damages by the civil court was paid to me.

The awarded money does not come any where near to cover the effort, stress, time and money spent pursuing this case. However, it was comforting to know that my claims of breach of contract were confirmed in a court of law.

It is staggering and deeply concerning to note that this kind of legal action was necessary in the first place. Mr Pugh (UK) and Gerald Todd at Cape Flying Services, George in South Africa will surely learn from this episode and I sincerely hope that no one else will need to suffer in the same manner ever again.

I would suggest extreme caution in considering any of the services offered or provided by both of these individuals.

Many thanks to all those contributors who offered words of support.

Thank you

Sandy Young

[Gunship]

Well that is one side to the story ...

The other side of the story is that a goverment has send students to the Cape Flying School and they came back extremely happy and had NO bad financial vows of any kind with Mr Todd or Cape Flying Services for that matter.

So yes Sandy you might have had a turd of bad luck there mate - others did not. But well done you made your point.

Seeing that you could not give any other input than your little court case on PPRUNE I pressume that at least it is the end of you ?

Or tell us how you shaped in the real flying world :E

Awaiting in constipation and with considerate pain :E

Cheers

Gunsss :}

[congoman]

Sorry Gunzzz
But the story is far from over. With at least three more pending court cases in the pipeline we are sure to be hearing much more about these sort of outfits. It's about time they were exposed.
Well done to Sandy for not sitting back in apathy and letting these kind of unscrupulous operators get away with it. We need more people like him. The South African flight training industry is starting to face a credibility problem because of these rouges. If you're a profesional pilot you should be supportive of the people who expose these vultures instead of running them down at every oppertunity. "All that is neccesary for injustice to succeed is that good men do nothing!" A slight variation of the original - but the same message. :ok:

[Spetsnaz]

Congratulations for seeing the problem through. Most people would have given up long before this. Maybe the other side will now pay up all outstanding debts , apologise and put this damaging conflict to bed.

[nyathi]

There is an old saying: "The biggest/highest trees catches the most wind!" It's normally those people/companies that does well and so on that gets talked about. This is getting really old and boring. Doesnt this people (Sandy Young, congoman and all there little buddys!) have anything new and interesting to talk about!

Check out all the forums!

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=180913

Enjoy the day!!

[sanjo69]

Nyathi

Maybe boring to you, not so boring for some!

In fact your comments are quite insulting and totally disrepectful to all those people that have been caused financial hardship, stress and feeling totally let down, they want to do something about it and have taken the time to read, constructively participate in this topic and actually instigate legal action with success against CFS

Yes, it is an old story but an important one and until the practice stops people will come out of the woodwork and get off their ar*se and do something about it!

What constructive comments have you made about this topic ?
What is your problem with people airing their constructive comment about something they feel strong about! and When did you last get ripped off and remember how you felt about it?

You see, in this world, there are the talkers and there are doers, with a little more respect accorded to you than you give to me and all those (and counting more each day) people doing something about it, you appear to be the former!!

You appear to have no interest whatsoever in exposing poor quality training in South Africa including your suspected employer as I strongly believe that you are an employee of CFS or if you are not then you are someone with very close links to them. If you are an (new) employee then i suspect you will learn one day that if you don't toe the line you probably will end up like your previous memebers at CFS. I suggest you ask some of your previous staff members all about their treatment and some students by Mr Todd

I am sure one day you will experience being let down during your aviation experience and i look forward to constructively contributing to your story on this forum because I am sure you will post it here being a respected forum for aviation and people with an interest in aviation will contribute, irrespective.

Finally and more to the point, let me ask you why are you taking the time and effort replying if it bothers you so much?


Sandy


PS: Nyathi is an instructor at CFS, you can make you own mind up about his real motives

[PPRuNe Towers]

An interesting and valid point nyathi,

Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.

A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.

As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?

Regards
Rob

[Phoebe Buffet]

I commend your perseverance Sandy .

[barryt]

Go for it Sandy! Keep up the good work. I am a South African and am continually appalled at the apathy in this country towards good service levels, from restaurants, to retailers, to you name it. None of it does our country's image any good, and were it not for people like you, they just get away with it, to the detriment of everybody. If you have a bone to pick with them, "Pick it!" I say, and if they've done no wrong, they have nothing to worry about, do they?

[sanjo69]

I note with keen interest that Naunton Pugh is no longer listed on the CFS website as an "European UK based agent" for this school.

I have mixed thoughts on this development as it may now be necessary for future European students who are considering SA Training with CFS to deal directly with Gerald Todd (uhmm, oh! dear).

Based on some of the horrendous stories and the scale of the problems that are well documented within this forum; is it now time that both these individuals stay well clear of aviation training/ operations for the good of the industry?

They have offered absolutely nothing to quell the growing dissent against them.

I look forward to meeting Mr Todd, again and soon, in a South African court.

Best Wishes

Sandy Young

[Propbrake]

I have many reasons to join in the fray and attack Gerald and CFS for my own reasons but won't since I don't agree with Mr Young or his actions. As he points out himself, he was refunded for time not flown and it seems that his main gripe is against Mr. Pugh.When one pays a non-refundable deposit one can expect that it won't be refunded. That's what it means. When any mature persons pays a non-refundable deposit ,one has to accept the risk that goes with it and therefore it is suggested that you do as much investigating as can be done before that.

Mr Young, if it is your normal practise to blindly pay non-refundable deposits, then beware, you will run into trouble. Also I'm not a great lover of agents in any form whatsoever and prefer to deal with a company directly. Any agent unfortunately ends up making promises which someone else has to try and keep. You should have realised that you won't complete your PPL in 3 weeks when you failed to go solo after the first week. You however continued and went solo after over 30 hours. These flying hours will remain valid and you can continue with your PPL in the UK. (UK Flying schools beware. Don't think any of you will be willing to take him on after all this)

Mr Young, if your gripe is with Mr Pugh, then leave CFS out of this thread completely. I don't know you and have never met you but it seems from your posts that you tend to act like a spoiled child that always gets his way and throws a tantrum if he doesn't. My advice, DROP IT AND MOVE ON!

I do know Gerald personally having worked as a Instructor at CFS. I had lots of good times there as well as some bad ones but won't give up the 2 odd years I worked there for anything.There is al lot of good and bad thing that could be said about the operations at CFS in the time that I was there. The main thing that I want to comment on, is that most students were very happy and a lot of the students who completed their CPL's would visit when in town after they had moved on. The bulk of the few unhappy students, and I don't want to generalise, were the ones who came from a small island in the Atlantic "ruled" by a Queen. Frenchy and Gary, I think you'll agree on this one. This was maybe the result of having to deal with an agent instead of talking to GT himself. Mr Pugh, no offence.

With respect Gerald, if you are reading this thread, learn from it and keep your students and instructors happy and talk to them directly and honestly! I now that you want a happy flying school with a good reputation but sometimes you make penny wise pound foolish decisions. I you see a bad apple amongst you students, cut your loses and run. Refund and offer them some-one else's services.

And guys out there, paying for any form of flying course upfront and completely is just plain stupid no matter who the company is your dealing with. It's like buying real-estate on the moon. It's payed for but that doesn't mean you'll get something from it.

[Gooneybird]

Propbrake, whilst I wasn't going to join in on this thread a couple of your comments did annoy me.
It wasn't by and large British students, any more than other foreign students.
The reason foreign students pay up front is not stupidity, it's to do with getting a student visa.
I myself am British, and I said on another thread I got what I paid for, a CPL ME/IR so no complaints personally.

I will say this, the three week PPL is a myth sold to beginners who don't know any better. If a company becomes aware of it's advertising being false it should do something about it.

Most of the problems at CFS were to do with lack of management, which was at the time understandable. I got the feeling though, that Gerald really should have hired a manager and had a little more faith in his own instructors, especially in regards to training on the twin.
The next problem was dealing with PPLs at all as it had plenty of CPL students who got 'pushed back' in their training to make way for those PPL students.

I agree with al lot of what you said, Propbrake but watch the little nationality based digs as we both know it's not that simple.

To potential CPL guys, my advice is to train on a tourist visa and do visa runs every once in a while. Every school has it's problems but it won't stop you from finishing. If the school your at doesn't have the aircraft you need available at that time, move to a school which does.

The written exams are not that difficult but don't expect much from lectures. Better to get the materials before you come and study by yourself. I stopped attending lectures as they just distracted me. It took six weeks of self study.

Finally, if your a CPL student be prepared to be self reliant, your going to have to be to make a career in aviation anyway so quit complaining and get used to it.

[Propbrake]

Gooneybird, like I said, maybe the British students were the most unhappy ones in general due to the fact that they dealt with a agent and not because they were British. I agree that the three week PPL is a myth and wish that Gerald would stop using it in his literature. Personally, I have flown with only two students in my instruction career that were capable of achieving such a feat. I also think that Gerald should use a manager though I hate seeing a avaition company run by a bean counter.He had a student acting as a mananger for a while(what ever happened to Ed?)

I still stand by what I said about paying everything upfront even if your are South African and even more so if your foreign. A CPL can be broken down into many pieces. Do whatever you can to reduce the risk your are taking.

[Gooneybird]

Fair enough I see your point.
What you wrote seems a well balanced and accurate picture of what I saw too.
Actually with CFS being pretty low priced I think they'd do better with no agent at all. But it's not my business.
A manager during my time there would have freed up more of Gerald's time to instruct students, at which I found him very good.

My advice about tourist visas was wrong by the way. South African law states that you must have a valid study visa to obtain an SAA CAA license. As you said Propbrake, people should pay as little up front as they can.

[sanjo69]

Propbrake..

Like you say I don't know you but it would have been wiser for you to have read the whole story about CFS before making some of the comments you have made about me and my experience at CFS.

Besides this there are numerous people around the world including South Africa that have utilised the services of Gerald Todd directly or through his other worldwide agents and through Naunton Pugh based in the UK. These students have had to endure wide ranging experiences including marriage break ups, nervous breakdowns and financial ruin etc directly caused by these people. These are not my words but the cold facts. This is the way they operate, together in manipulative collaboration, I personally experienced this through all my communications with both of them in the UK and South Africa.

You have not seen the marketing information solely provided by Pugh, nor have you personally witnessed the discussions and written communication that have taken place between all the parties, nor have you personally witnessed the arrogant and insulting "blame each other" culture of these two men. The documentation available is jointly very critical against Todd and Pugh. You, correctly, point out certain business improovement initiatives that Todd could implement. I would sincerely hope that he takes a long hard look at the situation and starts sonner than later to try and put things right for the people he has treated badly. Gerald Todd/ CFS has implicated himself by his own actions in this, my own, situation.

They both are equally as guilty and because I took the view that my contract was conducted solely through an independent UK business, therefore , Mr Pugh was successfully taken to court for breaches of contract not just flying time not taken and a non refundable deposit. I would have welcomed the opportunity for Gerald Todd to have been in court to defend my claims but he never appeared.

My, well debated, documented and at times critical personal experience is just the tip of the iceberg and was probably just the straw that broke the camels back!

Believe me when I say that If the situation was solely a failure of my doing then I would have been mature enough to quietly move on and taken the incident on the chin. One or two isolated incidents would be an acceptable percentage but the sheer volume and similiar nature of these problems cannot and should not be ignored, giving a clear and unquestionable indication of an alarming pattern of normal operations of past and present day CFS/ Todd and Pugh.

Tell me the real reasons why you defend this organisation so much when you admit there are fundemental and serious problems with them, don't be blinded, like others, by Gerald's charm and manipulative personality because he will drop you when you have served your purpose. Just take a moment and think about all the other people who have suffered at their hands and some far more serious problems than me without even a personal apology!


Sandy Young

[Propbrake]

Mr Young..

I'm not defending GT or CFS, I think that is clear.I merely critical of your actions.I have my own story to tell but I won't digress. At a time I wanted to strangle the man on sight but I moved on and am better for it and today I can shake his hand again should I run into him. You had a bad experience, you had your day in court, you've told everybody about it, now move on!

Gerald is no saint but his is also not the Anti-Christ like you want everybody to believe.I can think of 1 guy who now sits in the left seat of a 737 because Gerald helped him from PPL right through to Instructor. How Gerald treats you is greatly dependand on your own attitude and your attitude towards him.

What I'm trying to say is, that your experience at CFS is greatly dependand on what you make of it. If you put your head down and work hard, you will have a great time. My recommendation is that CFS, as I know it, is not for those who expect to be pampered through a PPL or CPL. However if you pay your money and do your thing, you will get your money's worth.

Further than this I can unfortunately not comment on. Please let this be the end of this...

..changing frequency, over and out.

[Spetsnaz]

I find it fascinating that someone like Propbrake sees this thread topic - and instead of ignoring it reads everything, writes more than one reply THEN has the gall to say DROP IT!

If he is not interested in the subject then I suggest he create or contribute to a subject that he is. To criticise the authors for airing valid criticism is pointless and just makes everyone wonder what his real motives are.

And furthermore ----> To have a go at ALL British people is also dangerous and will elicit a response that he will not like!

[ZS-NDV]

Spetsnaz,

I don't see what is wrong in what Propbrake is saying. He is totally right both about GT / CFS and about what Sandy should do (i.e. Drop it). Why should he not be allowed to comment on what is being said. Especially since he actually worked there...

I know Propbrake. He was not only my instructor at CFS but we were also flatmates. He is a decent and honest guy. He has absolutely no reason to promote CFS as he left there quite a long time ago.

I agree with his comments totally. But then maybe you are like Sandy and had a bad experience at CFS which would account for your blatent unacceptance of anything other than criticism towards CFS.

By the way, do read Propbrake's messages properly. He never 'had a go at' all brits...

Frenchy

[George Tower]

These students have had to endure wide ranging experiences including marriage break ups, nervous breakdowns and financial ruin etc directly caused by these people. These are not my words but the cold facts.

Sandy,

That is the biggest load of bullsh!t and B0llocks I have ever heard in my entire life!!!!

In the light of having your verbal diahorrea quoted perhaps you can withdraw such a silly statement. Lest you confirm to all of us who read your rantings, with a mixture of boredom and incredulity, that you have the emotional maturity of a spoilt five year old brat.

Pprune mods:

I'm not making a personal attack on Sandy just asking him to defend an absurd statement.

Guys, sometimes in life we suffer injustice, but you know at the end of the day by holding on to the grudges and bitterness we only screw ourselves repeatedly. I reckon this saga has gone on now for two years. I'm not sure what Sandy's flying aspirations are (may be he could fill us in given that he has undoubtably become a celebrity in this forum) but if his primary aim is to be a pilot then surely it would have been more productive to spend the vast sums he has spent on lawyers actually flying instead, and the vast time venting his spleen on Pprune doing something more constructive like studying. I'm sure your average mortal could have polished off their ATPL subjects given the time Sandy has spent on this case.

Finally may be you guys could all meditate on the following:

"Growth in wisdom may be exactly measured by decrease in bitterness." Friedrich Nietzsche

[Gunship]

To the owners and moderators of PPRUNE and fellow regular PPRUNER Contributors:

Lately I have (purposefully) kept out of the firing line but I can not shut my big mouth any longer so excuse the bad English and all … here comes though ..

When Sandy Young started this thread he was immediately put on thin ice by 4HP. You're playing it very close to the line Sandy - especially for a 2nd post

I think the time has come that he has broken the ice, made his point, won the court case and won his cash and good luck to him but let us end this endless Cape Flying Services (CFS) / Gerald Todd (GT) and Naunton Pugh (NP) bashing.

By continuing to run this thread from one man's inputs and then with a few followers has gone to far I think. Please I have no doubt that the court was fair in their judgement and I have no problems in south coast having a problem with GT or PPRUNE Towers with this and that … that is not my point I am going to try and make here.

When I was in George I asked about Sandy and as far as I know they told me the following (verified by his instructor – who even he admitted was professional and dedicated). Sandy was allocated an aircraft and had a very dedicated Instructor who clearly understood that Sandy was on a tight time schedule. It was also made clear to Sandy that it was not going to be easy, and once again on the signed terms and conditions, the very ones our guys signed, he signed that he understood that they would do their best but cannot be held responsible for delays beyond their control. (My son took 6 weeks – the professional institution CFS is grounded them when the wind was too strong … I know of another flight school that pushed the limits and a heap or two of scrap is the result).

The Private Pilots Licence calls for a minimum of 25 hours of dual and 15 solo, and if I remember correct Sandy took 32 odd hours before going solo, in 17 days. That's 7 hours more dual than the PPL requirement according to the SA ‘s CAA.

Dual time takes up more time, if that makes sense, than solo time. Once the student goes solo, the back of the course was broken and the rest is downhill. Sandy shouldn't complain about what he accomplished together with the help of a dedicated Instructor and the facilities made available to him, I very much doubt that there are many schools that could do better ?

I remember an incident when CFS did not have enough serviceable aircraft for our guys on course. What did he do ? He leased in an aircraft (or two) as he said we paid up front and that was the deal … weather permitting and of course some African troubles (too little rice in the stomach)… the guys all finished except one.

Ok … now What about the 100's of people that had good experiences ?

Do you post about the 99 good flights you had with BA ? No the bad one get’s mentioned. For 2 years and 3 months Sandy Young and the anti - GT / CFS / NP had their turn to beat down a Flying School. Surely this is going on too long ? I mean just as soon as the saga disappears Young and other complainants has another story. So for more than 2 years if people search on PPRUNE Africa they will get this negative attitude from CFS / GT / NP.

Yes, as the court case swung Young’s way – he won and he made his point. Why can’t we move on now ?

Now think about it this way if we start a rumour about congoman’s Flying School (Let’s call it Wawwy Wawweck Flying school (if he has a flying school - sorry it is pure co-incidence - just an example) :E... Let’s say he flew one of his aircraft 60 hours past an MPI …. one bad mouth and then another and 5 good one's ... people like to read bad news and the bad news will stuck. I promise you overnight Wawwy’s Flying School will take a huge dent.

Now right or wrong if a thread (or THREE as in Sandy Young’s case) runs for 2 years and 3 months … imagine the damage caused ? So yes NP / CFS Europe was wrong according to the court and SY won – well done. In the 2 years imagine how much damage had he caused. All he does is laugh about it and has done NOTHING to further aviation on PPRUNE. (Explained later)

How must Mr Todd / CFS feel at this stage ? I can just imagine the damage it has caused him financially or otherwise his reputation alone.

A Question to PPRUNE TOWERS (Sorry Rob mate no ill-feelings) but you make the following remark on nyati :

An interesting and valid point nyathi,

Of your 15 posts on this site 4 of them regard CFS - over a quarter according to my fading skills.

A strong history of posting on a single subject or business raises our readers' eyebrows just as much whether a booster or detractor.

As an 'extreme' example consider the 'characters' on the long running huey threads who make no other contribution on any subject anywhere else on the site. It goes both ways doesn't it?

Regards
Rob

Have you done your homework on Sandy Young PPRUNE TOWERS ? The only responsible thing he has done on PPRUNE was to blemish the good name (for 100's of us they have a good name) of GT / CFS and NP.

Yes Nyathi might have defended his boss but what about the 37 pots of Sandy Young taking a crack at GT / CFS.

Sanjo69 has made 37 posts at the time of writing. Of those 36 was on the African Forum. Of the 36, 35 was about himself / NP / CFS or GT. The only other post was in any case also about them. So 36/37 PPRUNE TOWERS is according to my fading skills close to 100 % vs nyati’s one quarter – so why pick on him ? :mhh:

Sorry Rob mate (we had some good posts in the past and some good run abouts according to my fading skills but you are very in favour of Sandy Young (sanjo69) on this one.

I just quickly scanned another “New poster” – 3 posts to be exact. Congoman : Now congoman has made three posts this month and I have it under great confidentiality /trust and inside info from his “trusted insiders” that congoman is non other than Mr W. W. who happens to be the owner of FTC from George who is the biggest competition of GT / CFS. He has posted 3 out of 3 – all degenerating GT / CFS. I wonder why … and what will his motives be :E:E:E

Why not question him on his 100% anti-Todd / CFS / NP sentiment ?

When 4HP gave Sanjo69 leeway to make his case he answered :

This complaint is not directed at Cape Flying Services George, but, Mr Naunton Pugh, trading as Cape Flying Services (Europe).

That is not the way the two years of exposure ran ??? Sanjo69 never kept his side of the treaty …

Ok now I have it also on good authority that a certain aircraft from a certain flying school in George over flew his aircraft by 60 hrs since an MPI.

Catching the drift ??? Shall I start that rumour ? Blemish someone’s name until it get binned ? :E

This thread and the other three had done their damage and should be considered for deletion as I can start a few rumours that will blemish a few companies ... oh ... of course I will use another username (called trolling).

You might think two threads … what happened to Irish-Pilot27 ? Yeah we know it was Sandy Young. 4 posts in 2 days and he NEVER , ever appeared again on PPRUNE – all 4 posts degrading / GT / CFS. So three threads running over two years … same story same irk …

PPRUNE TOWERS you did not mention that one either. Sorry I am not taking a dig at you but you should have been with these threads for two plus years as we where and you surely would have seen the inside of this. Hope you understand my point and I say again – it is NOT a dig at you as a person ok ? There are a few more trolls that did their damage and left – never to post again (except south coast of course but he obviously has his reasons why he is / was unhappy)

Last but not least – a real personal appeal from the heart:

My Guns have been blazing today but I also would like to pull them back and blow the smoke away and appeal to everyone here today to respect our fellow aviators. I want to send a personal plea to you as a fellow aviator re Mr Gerald Todd. Yes, some of you might not like him for whatever reason. I have met Gerald twice, send 7 students to him (and a few more is coming) and I have just the greatest respect for him, his business, his personnel and his lovely family.

GT / CFS / NP has taken the punch now - Sandy you won – well done – let it go now mate. (Please) RIP.

I thank you all for reading this.

My best wishes,

Gunship.

[The Claw]

Hi Gunship,

I couldn't agree more. Defamation of character comes to mind. This matter has been settled in court and yet Sandy Young continues to smear these people via a number of forums. In these forums Sandy displays a total lack of interest in things aviation and has the sole intent of carrying out his vendetta against CFS and also against Pprune in another forum. (Saying how Pprune closed his precious thread but failing to mention that he has two others running?)

Sandy has done nothing to contribute to aviation and clearly has his own selfish agenda. Over to Pprune...........

Rgds,

[Gunship]

Tx The Claw,

Although I said it in lots of paragraphs and in bad English ... that is what I meant to say.

He had his day ... let's go on now.

As you say over to the master's at PPRUNE - I / we made our point and I respect your point as an "old hand" on PPRUNE.

Cheers and have a good night.

Gunzzzzz

PS: Sorry again for my English (and thanks Bill for the spell checker on WORD ) :E:E:E

[ZS-NDV]

Guns,

We haven't met (or at least I don't think so...) but just wanted to (virtually) shake your hand. :ok:
I also have great respect for Mr GT (for many reasons, most of which I'm sure those who know him understand) and even though I haven't seen him in yonks, I know that the day I land in George again, he'll be the first one I call.

Gerald, if you read this, know that Frenchy and familly are with you on this one. Hope all is well on your end and hope to see you soon!

Thanks again Guns for setting the record straight and lets hope that PPRUNE TOWERS does put an end to this useless bashing.

Cheers,

Frenchy

[Kopeloi]

Sure hope that this will be the end of this thread. Don't know the school or persons involved but been long enough in aviation to know persons like Sandy.
However, been visiting George last November and what a beautiful place!

[Gunship]

Guys thanks for the response.

I do not want a rift between us here and a PPRUNE bashing of any sorts but all I am sking the higher eschelon.

I (and others) has exposed the fakes here ... do not support trolls / imposters ..

Sandy made his point - he won - congrats - you have caused a lot of damage Sandy (right or wrong) andf I personally would have taken it further if I was GT / CFS / NP.

But my bottom line ... let's please as Aviators (sorry got to exclude you Sandy) - let's get on with life.

There is a good SA FLIGHT SCHOOLS bashing forum under Private Pilot's forum to err your grieviences. CFS has taken enough I feel.

Cheers,

Gunss

[Spetsnaz]

ZS-NDV (Frenchy)

You can always tell when someone is going to be insulting because they often start off by saying "I don't want to generalise/be rude/funny/sarcastic .... BUT ..... " and off they go.

Read Propbrake's post again and see: -

"... I don't want to generalise, were the ones who came from a small island in the Atlantic "ruled" by a Queen"

Clearly he's having a go as any British person might agree!

Maybe he should start the CFS supporters club as member in chief?!

My suggestion to them is to get their house and kleptocratic country ruled by a racist absent President in order.

[Gunship]

Good morning all,

First of all let me make it clear that I unwittingly put my nose into this as I saw it as a one-sided story going the wrong way for the wrong reasons.

What started as a Sandy vs NP and CFS (Europe) became a GT / CFS SA bashing.

Then on top of it now CFS's biggest competition also jumped on the band wagon and anonymously tried to bash from the side line. This is NOT The spirit that I know from PPRUNE (after 7 odd years here).

I had a very long conversation with Mr Todd.

What is very clear is that he will not post any further on this issue as he is very, very frustrated, cross, and not a happy man. Not about NP but the fact that his competition went so far as they did.

He has evidence that congoman is Mr W.W. (owner or co -owner of his next biggest competition next door in George) and as such see him as posting anonymously on an open forum, degrading his biggest competition and in person Gerald Todd.

It is very clear to me that they do not see eye-to eye - no two ways about it that this "competition" has come a very long way. I could write volumes full what he told me (and I am sure WW also has another thing or two to say).

To post what Mr Todd told me re WW and his competition willl also not be fair but the fact that congoman / WW says that Mr Todd can expect 3 court cases leaves quite a bit of worry as Mr Todd reckons he can expect a few more due to things he has been doing against him and and and ...

Gents this has become nasty - it is clearly now a ego trip and PPRUNE is used as a bashing forum with Cape Flying Services name heading this and the other thread.

I feel very strongly now that this is not the place to sort out personnal grudges and I for one will refrain from reading / posting anything more on this subject.

To both of you - good luck with your flying schools. SA (and the beautiful George area) needs good flying schools with the correct training being given to the highest standards and the most cost - effective - all in an professional capacity.

We chose CFS. You choose what you want.

God Bless.

Gunship

[Phoebe Buffet]

I agree Gunship - you should stick to posting infantile jokes and electronic equip updates!.......

[Phoebe Buffet]

Gunship: If you grow up in a loving, ethical, moral and trusting environment that is what you expect from others in life however you are quite correct there are certain south africans who are not of that calibre.

[Gunship]

Sobb sobb ... enjoy your day mate :ok:

[ou Trek dronkie]

Gunner Man,

1. You sum up the CFS and the RSA training situation very well. Dankie man. I could say more but my lips are sealed lekker vas.

2. Yes, some of your jokes are very bad, it's true, but some are very funny. And the very bad ones are also quite good.

:D :D :D :D

3. Hilaire Belloc once said :

"Be patient with your little boy
and beat him when he sneezes.
He only does it to annoy
because he knows it teases".

4. Phoebe was the daughter of Uranus (check spelling ?)
;) ;) ;)

ou Toppie draadsitter

[Phoebe Buffet]

ou trek donkie: Phoebe is my daughter and though on occasion can be a bit 'spacey'......... bless her, I can guarantee she has never been anywhere near Uranus.

Back to the topic in hand on this thread and it's sister thread 'Cape Flying Services' by Irishpilot27:

I don't think it' a good idea to 'forgive and forget', 'let bygones be bygones' or 'kiss and makeup' as 'for evil to flourish it only takes good men to turn the other way'.

The only thing most people want in their lives is common decency. civility and respect; these are the lifebood of any human interaction and in much the same way we scold our children, smack them on the legs or send them to their bedrooms for a 'quiet time' to instill those qualities so does the law.

Nobody is above the law, not in my country or yours so yes I do think Gerald Todd, NP, CFS should be made accountable for their alleged abuse of students, threatening behaviour towards students and inaccurate accountancy practices and I believe there are several court proceedings in the pipeline to attain just such justice.

.............and if GT should lose one boat or one car in the process of attonement so be it. That's no biggy to him as he's a rich man he's been in the Flying School business a long time ~ 15-20 years.

Intelligent debate on this or the 'Cape Flying Services' thread welcome.

[ou Trek dronkie]

Phoebe Buffet,

I did not realise you were writing about your daughter, I am sure she is delightful, as are all daughters and I sincerely wish her the best of luck in her aviation career. (Not sure what “Spacey” means, hope it is not the same as “spaced out”, we don’t do that in aviation.)

Thank you so much for explaining to me about Edmund Burke (although in fact, he was writing about bad governments), about the law and decency and smacking children on the legs, it serves me right.

But, listen, I am told that if you smack children on the legs in the UK, where you are, it is considered a very serious crime ? What kind of a parent are you ??? Does she strike you back in self-defence ? What does “Buffet Phoebe” mean in this context ? Do you use it in the biblical sense ? We are getting into heavy ground here, methinks. Leave me out of it.

BTW mate, you have no idea what “my country’ is.

Back to the topic. I think Mr Guns and others have been trying to make the point that this issue has been flogged to death, OTT. I also agree. Look, if you or anyone else has a grievance with what you contracted for, if you feel that someone did not perform according to contract, then you have a simple remedy at law in any country, although some are better than others. It will take you at least five years in Italy, so I am told.

So, if you are convinced you have been cheated, it should be failry easy to establish your case. You should have all the necessary information to support your allegations. If that is so, then go out and try and drill the people you maintain have cheated and abused you (your daughter ?) And I hope you succeed in righting your alleged wrongs, if that is the case. The term “alleged” is used for obvious reasons - I have no idea of the truth of the statements of the various parties, how could I ?

Also I have no idea what the background to your own particular case is, neither shall I re-read this long thread again. Let me just say that I have known many dodgy operations in the South African Flight Training scene and I know of one, at least, doing very nicely thank you right now. These people bring the South African aviation world into bad odour and I deeply resent that. Nevertheless, this has been the case for many years and the CAA has done precious little to stop it. Many of us can recall dodgy operators, but we would never dream of slagging them on line. Of course, I am nowhere referring to Mr Todd or his associates, if that is what your initials mean, I cannot comment on them, neither do I want to.

If on the other hand, you did not make serious enquiries about anyone/everyone you prosed to contract business with in South Africa, or anywhere else, the ancient doctrine of Caveat emptor springs to mind.

Pprune is not a slagging forum and for people to use it as such repeatedly is plain silly and uninformed. And not intelligent either.

Old leg smaaker.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Really?

Surely the point is you are not” stirring” just by exposing something which is wrong. If it’s not exposed, it will never get put right, a point some people cannot see. Silence is assent mates.


ou Trek dronkie to Gunns 9th May 2005 in this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1877480#post1877480

Regards to all,
Rob Lloyd

PS Sincere thanks to oDt for the most elegant phrasing I've ever seen for the reason why we fight all the legal threats and pressures placed on the site. It would be so easy to quietly fold every time the lawyers' letters arrive.

[congoman]

Re: George Tower's reply to Sandy where he says Sandy is talking B/S about an ex-student who's endured personal problems since his experience at CFS.
Just wanted to confirm that Sandy's statement is true. I know the guy he's refering to personally. He's a broken man. Not trying to place all the blame solely on G.T - but he was largely instrumental in turning one mans bad luck into a disaster! Will try to get hold of him so he can post his story. It's for what you've done to guys like N.G (and others) that you deserve to go down G.T.

[Kopeloi]

Congoman,
Wonder what are your reasons, nervous breakdown also?

[congoman]

It's about that illusive thing called JUSTICE. Heard of it?
Or are we just another one of those 'talking head' devil's advocates? Apologists for iniquitous behaviour in the face of overwhelming evidence. Some would call it 'business.' I call it immoral.

[Kopeloi]

Yes I did but been very busy with a thing called AVIATION. I do not understand why your kind of people can't stay away and play with your JUSTICE alone. Nobody ever told you that before?
Why it is so difficult to accept that not everyone can be succesfully thought to fly. Same may apply with your justice bussiness?

[George Tower]

Congoman et al,

First of all the only reason that I have chimed in with my two cents worth is that I did my PPL in George at your school Mr WW.

It was the best 5 weeks of my life I have to say. It was way back in 2002 and your aeroplanes were shot and your CFI had all the CRM of a bag of cement.

Having said that your brother was a great chap and you did my PPL test and that was 2.5 hours of great experience also. Teaching was good and flying was excellent.

Part of the reason I have tried to challenge some of Sandy's emotive claims is that something like this portrays the whole of SA in a bad light which simply creates the wrong impression.

Pprune Towers/Rob Lloyd's comments simply perpetuate this false impression of South Africa. The subtext of everything he has posted on this topic has been negative about South Africa.

Rob, the way you responded to an Irv Lee post on this tread was pretty disgusting IMHO.

Whilst the advent of JAR training has provided the fodder for a wide variety of flying schools in SA to make some very dubious and downright false marketing claims, a chap like Irv has run a service that in effect present the facts and cuts out the BS once and for all and we must applaud him for doing so and further more actually encourage him to present the facts as I doubt there is anyone is a more knowledgable position than he on the whole subject of the UK/SA PPL issues.

Mr WW,

I do find the claims that one man and his flying school can be held personally liable for nervous break down and marriage splits rather tenuous. If Mr Todd is a serial womaniser and a marriage break-up incurred as a result of a spouse falling for Mr GT then even so it takes two to tango so it would be interesting to see Sandy defend this assertion. Note he hasn't done.

Rgds to All

[silverknapper]

I didn't see Rob being disgusting towards Irv. What he did was dare to state the fact that an SA PPL is useless back in the UK, and schools in SA don't make this clear. You have a SA PPL I take it GT. What do you do when you're in Manchester, and the 152 you are type rated on isn't available? Drive to Popham to ge validated on a (similiar) 150? It is a ridiculous system which offers no flexibility.
I feel very strongly now that this is not the place to sort out personnal grudges and I for one will refrain from reading / posting anything more on this subject.
About time Gunns. I very much enjoy most of your posts on a regular basis. But on this topic I am tired of hearing your complaints about censorship. If this guy wasn't being dishonest he would have nothing to fear.