NBD's here to stay?

[compressor stall]

A few years back when I lived in a big city, I remember attending a Flight Safety Seminar. In it much talk was of this new fangled GPS stuff and NPAs etc.

Mr CASA/Airservices man said that terrestrial navaids were to be obselete by 2010.

I noticed in today's Oz, that there is request for tenders for the Airservices' NDB network to install 60 ndbs.

What's the story?

CS

[medwun]

What a woftam.

Anyone here done a real NDB approach in thew last two years? The only reason I seem to do them these days is to stay current.

I'm surprised that Delta Hotel hasn't got on the band wagon and tried to have them shut down to save money. But I guess he's bin too busy with the airspace stuff!

[compressor stall]

Hmmm, there would be a fair backlash from the operators that cannot afford a TSO GPS...

Then there is alternate consideration which would have to be changed.

And apologies for the typo in the title (thanks Jimmy! :ok: )

[Arm out the window]

Ditch the new NDBs and use the spare money to provide free swept-up GPS to all users. Win-win situation...

[Transition Layer]

Was talking to a CASA FOI a few weeks back who told me that quite a few NDBs and VORs were going in NSW by the end of 2006 I think.

The first to go will be those not associated with an aerodrome, such as MQD, BIK, MSO and WMD.

He said that by 2007 something only something like 5 VORs and 20 NDBs will remain in NSW.

I'm all for GPS, but I'm a bit confused as to where the money will come from. You only have to look at the average GA aircraft to find torn seat covers, sh1tty paintjobs and sub-standard avionics to see that the industry at that level isn't exactly flush with cash. Plenty of aircraft have GPS, but are they TSO'd and with current databases? Flew one A/C a few weeks back with a database that expired in OCT 94 - Sydney Intl was still called ASSY!

:yuk:

TL

[TIMMEEEE]

I agree that the NDB approach is totally outdated and that a coded runway approach using GPS is alot more stable and user-friendly.

Just remember with GPS that is was built and paid for by the US military and in times of war or aggression they reserve the right to increase the error margin of the GPS system when it suits them.

Caveat Emptor.

[Duff Man]

Very surprised to hear NDBs are to be maintained and replaced to such a degree (no pun intended).

TIMMEEE... the US discontinued use of GPS Selective Availability (SA) in 2000. While we can't predict the crazy antics of G.W., justification of this was that GPS signals can be degraded on a regional basis for military applications, avoiding placing civilian criticical-use applications in jeopardy. Development of effective dual-ownership of GPS with the EU's Galileo will provide more surity.

More info:
http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FGCS/info/sans_SA/
http://www.igeb.gov/

[NAPAC Convenor]

All,

AsA have a proposal coming from the Australian furture nav plan that over the next few years the number of NDBs be reduced as the influence of GPS NPA increases. The intent is to leave an underlying backup system of NDB's just in case Uncle Sam's system falls over for whatever reason. There will not be any enroute navaids eg Bindook or Holbrook.

The RAPAC minutes on the ASA website has details of those iniitally nominated for withdrawl. In some cases they cannot get parts eg valves for the Narromine NDB.

CASA are also moving to remove the mandatory requirement for NDB's on the instrument renewals and initial issues. 146 approved ie stand alone GPS systems are also being picked up in the various regs.

Industry has been pushing for a review since ASA spent, without any industry input, $900,000.00 on a refurbishment of the Parkes VOR. No one needed this omni at an aerodrome with GPS NPA and NDB.

Cheers

[ROCKSTEADY]

And how is this going to affect flight planning requirements? This means that they will have to change the regulations all over again.

I.E. Must plan for an alternate if airport has only a GPS approach.

[Bird Strike]

I guess you might have to plan an alternate to somewhere with the non-space-based "backup"?

After all, they're proposing to keep all ILSs, 25 NDBs and 10 VORs in NSW, according to http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/pilotcentre/forums/RAPAC/rapacnsw040617.pdf

and you'd be a bit buggered without it if you lost all your satellite signals


:E ;)

[Cougar]

Medwun,
I used to think that too until in May, i lobbed into Wagga (with VOR and DME notamed out for servicing). Of course the weather was dogs*it, and we, aswell as REX x2 and a Kingair had to divert.

Then travelled the 50Nms up the road to Narrandera that had no INTER on the TAF, and lo and behold, shot an NDB cos their VOR was also NOTAMed out. And once again, not visual.

And i think that morning i was discussing why we bother doing NDB's sll the time, because the chances of usever doing one in anger were....

[NOtimTAMs]

Cougar

Get yourself a TSO'd GPS fitted! Sure, you still need to have the aircraft equipment and ground aids for the diversion to the airfield with the NDB approach, but, given practise and proficiency at both procedures, I'd sure prefer to fly the GPS NPA in anger than the NDB approach in crap weather... and you may have gotten into Wagga on the 05 GPS with the lower GPS minima even if the VOR and NDB were serviceable - tho' obviously the weather was pretty crapola..

Happy landings...