Obtaining the JAR ATPL in Australia

[zendj]

Hey Guys,

Has anyone obtained a JAR ATPL within Australia? If so, how - and where?

I have the right to work in Jersey and UK (and EU rights) - and I want to be able to go over and work there in case Virgin or Qantas don’t want me.

The way I am thinking on doing it is:

Obtain the Australian CPL (and CIR)
Obtain the JAR ATPL
Convert the JAR ATPL to Australian ATPL (apply to Qantas and Virgin) - Then if they don’t want me - Go and try for a UK / EU airline.

Are there any problems with getting the CPL in Australia (will the UK / EU countries require that the CPL be obtained within the same country?)

Any comments / suggestions welcome!

[Mr. Hat]

zendj you need to have a chat to the expert on this topic and that is redsnail by a country mile. Do a search - you will see my name come up asking similar questions to yours.

The way I see it - and I might be wrong. Is if I had my time over I would do the whole lot in Europe and then convert to the Australian licences as the opposite is much more expensive.

I did it the wrong way around and now barely even consider converting to the uk stuff as its just too expensive.

Best of luck

[Bird Strike]

I agree with Mr Hat re: Redsnail being the best person to answer that question!

I also think if you do a search, you'd find quite a bit of info on PPRuNe already.

[redsnail]

At this stage you cannot get a JAR ATPL whilst staying in Australia. However, there's some developments happening with the FAA and JAA regarding converting ATPLs. Whether or not it'll come in I don't know. JAA is due to be phased out and replaced with another set of initials. How it will affect things is any one's guess.
See this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=136564)
Note, pay attention to what "Billie Bob" says. That person talks sense and seems to know how the CAA operates.
Converting an Australian CPL/IR to a JAR one is an exercise in pain and frustration. Not to mention bloody expensive. (at the moment).
It has been rumoured that Virgin Blue et al don't like converted Australian ATPL's. They do like all the exams done unless you have used the foreign licence in anger. (eg had a job).
While you can happily convert an Australian PPL with no real hassles, any thing from CPL and higher is a challenge.

For a laugh and to see exactly what you can and can't do, read LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/srg/licensing/fcl/document.asp), esp Section G. While you're on that page, have a squizz of the fun JAR ATPL theory stuff that'll really make you wince. The UK CAA makes CASA look like the very model of forward thinking.

There is movement at last in the UK/Europe. However, T&C's are being driven down by the likes of Ryanair and M. O'Leary. (rent your uniform, pay for your accom, pay for your accom whilst at the sim, pay for your food and water while at work, no pay when you're on standby.... and if you behave you might get your contract renewed or offered a full time position)
The jet guys want jet time.. the turboprop guys don't want you to have too much experience. Most 737 operators that are hiring are now charging ~ £23,000 for a rating to join their company.

I could have gone to uni and had a great ol' time several times over with the money it has cost me to convert my Aust ATPL to a JAR one.

[Sheep Guts]

Redsnail,

Please note that Virgin Blue et al don't like converted Australian ATPL's. They do like all the exams done unless you have used the foreign licence in anger. (eg had a job).

Is this true? Could you PM with your sources? I realise this is a Rumour Network :)

Sheep

[James Bigglesworth]

Sheep,

Met a few blokes at AFT in maroochydore who had FAA ATPL's, which they had converted to Oz, and a bucketload of turboprop hours. They were completing the OZ ATPL's purely to meet this new requirement of DJ's. I think the DJ website now reflects this.

interestingly - one of the boys failed an exam (flight planning funnily enough...) and the nice men at CASA stripped him of his Oz ATPL, and were considering doing the same to his CPL !...I think it came out in the wash though...

Cheers,

JB

[Sheep Guts]

Biggles Im booked in to do the same thing. No intention of failing it though, even though Ive been working on my foreign licences nearly as along as my Oz one.

Sheep :)

[The Hedge]

Interesting reading..

Methinks there will be a mass exodus to Euroland should the draft be implemented.

A quick trip to the US for an ATP would then get a typical Aus ATPL GA driver a JAA CPL, subject to the FAA-JAA conversion exam,medical and flight test . No 14 exams no abbrievatied IR =substantial cost saving.

Fingers crossed!!

[Chippie Chappie]

Hey Hedge,

Not sure that you can just convert from FAA to JAA without having to do the 14 exams unless you have a great deal of experience (i.e; 3000 hours heavy jet).

ZenDJ, it's a hard road, but if you have a residents permit for Jersey or Guernsey , flybe and Aurigny Air Servces would probably be quite interested in you. Both have turbo props and are reasonable operators by reputation. It would be worth contacting them both before you make you decision.

Good luck,

Chips

[redsnail]

Hedgy,
No I don't think it will work like that. THe proposal is for you to have +1500 hours on FAR/JAR 25 aircraft. The cheapest/simplest* one of those is a Shed. :D

Chippie Chappy,
That is the current requirement. There are moves to change that if the proposal goes ahead. (FAA to JAA)

It will only help those with significant time in Sheds and bigger. The average bloke flogging his/her guts out in the bush won't get any assistance here.

*Orright orright orright.
The Shorts 330/360 is one of the cheapest JAR 25 aircraft around.
Some of the Citations, eg the Bravo are JAR 25 MPA as well.

[James Bigglesworth]

Sheep - good luck at YBMC. Nathan is the man- no other way to do it IMHO...

All the best !

JB :ok:

[The Hedge]

Re the draft proposal, it states that to go from FAA - JAA CPL, requires an FAA ATP(or CPL) and 500hrs Post CPL exp in Class or types listed in App. 1 to JAR-FCL 1.215 or App. 1 to JAR FCL 1.220.

1500 Multi Crew for the JAA ATPL, fair enough.

Can someone shed light on the aircraft types as per the above references? Cannot find them on the net.

[redsnail]

Ok Hedge,
Here's the document you need to peruse. JAR-FCL 1 (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jars/451854.pdf)
The "gotcha" with the new proposal if you hold a FAA CPL is that while you'll only have to do 4 composite papers, when you go to do your very first MPA (multi pilot aeroplane) type rating (ref. JAR 1.250) you have to comply with JAR 1.285. (See page 84 of above). Skip down to page 123, JAR 1.285. The dreaded 14 JAR ATPL exams.
If you want to see what aircraft is a MPA according to JAR. It is in that document as well.
I would suggest if you're interested in the JAR torture that you be familiar with LASORS from the CAA and JAR-FCL 1 from the JAA (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html).

From what the proposal says, you'll need at least 1500 hours in MPA aircraft any way to convert a FAA ATPL .(eg Dash 8, 737, not Beech 1900)
No mention of CASA conversions.

[VIRGA]

I've just finished my 14 exams and have a a few flts in a Duchess to go and I will have the conversion in the bag.

Started in October last year and will have it all done by 1st wk Aug.

Well worth it so far and I shall be getting paid in Sterling and before anyone hops in with the standard crap about the weather, it's been great.

REDDO, cheers for all your help....:ok:

[redsnail]

Nurries,
Well done. :D
Make sure you're familiar with ppjn (http://www.ppjn.com).
BA Citiexpress and bmi regional both looking for pilots. :ok:

[The Hedge]

Thanks for the info Reddo.

Thought it was too good to be true.

Well done Virga.

[tcasalert]

Hey guys,

Was wondering if you could tell me how bad the JAR exams really are? I've heard they are much tougher than the Oz ATPL's. I've nearly finished all the Oz ATPL's and didn't find them too bad. I have an EU passport and have been thinking about converting.

Thanks in advance.

[redsnail]

I did the Australian ATPL back in 1995. Flight planning was and still is one of the toughest papers I know. (but that could be just me...) It is a lot harder than the JAR equivalent.
There's 14 exams to knock over in JAR and only a certain amount of attempts can be made before all the passes are null and void and you have to start again.
JAR theory is "hard" not because of the depth of knowledge required but the breadth of material that you just have to memorise. Not all of it is strictly correct either.
There is a fair bit of it that is really a WOFTAM. Why have they put in single engine piston M&B questions, piston engines in Airframe and Systems and the like. VFR and IFR comms are a joke.

[...still single]

Redsnail
Why is the JAR ATPL process so (reportedly) expensive? Is it the cost of taking the exams, or what? I'd love to have a crack at it, but it sounds like it is a bit beyond my means. I guess if it was affordable, lots of pilots would be doing it.:(

[Luke SkyToddler]

Flying light piston aircraft has always been viewed by this country's government as an exclusive pastime of rich upper class playboys, and as such they tax the living bejeezus out of it.

The difference between the UK government and others, is that unlike Oz where some people still rely on light aircraft as a basic day-to-day life saver, this government sees no need or requirement for a commercially viable GA sector of the industry. Any feeble attempts by the flying schools or students to get the government to reduce their crippling tax burden on private flying are either laughed out of court or shouted down by the environmental lobby.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Cracking argument and 100% on your side Luke but which tax burden? Compared with me, say, making and delivering pies?

We are highly taxed. We are very crowded. GA has no use in crowded, small countries with extensive train networks, motorway systems Etc.

Or did you mean we should be subsidised?

Like many others I chose to travel between London and Paris by train because aviating is a deeply unpleasant waste of the equivalent time.

To be blunt: what's the point of using an aircraft in the UK or the Benelux countries when compared to rail or the motorways? For most people and most goods most of the time it is the worst possible choice.

Point being missed folks. ATPLs are made difficult and expensive in the UK to restrict. An artificial barrier. Like a 4 year degree in the States or starvation in OZ. It serves no other purpose. There is no GA here we generally go onto jets straight away.

That's not wrong - it is simply different. Our culture and conditions are different therefore a different restricting mechanism has developed.

Regards
Rob