Im read to leave and get a job

[Fly Kevin]

Hello there all you guys and gals out there !!!

I recently finished all of my training up to ATPL (frozen) standard with 250 tt. I am ready now to leave Sydney and get my first job. I know this topic has been raised quiet a bit lately but I just wanted a little advice of my own if I could.

First of all should I take heaps of stuff like I am moving there or just the bear essentials like head sets, log book, sleeping bag etc and other nececities like that ?

How long should I plan on being away if say I would like to get around 1000 tt on a single and then maybe a job on a twin and maybe get another 1000 hrs on the twin gining me 2000 tt. How long should this approx take to get ?

Should I take my girlfriend with me as she is in a job that can pick up work anywhere in Australia with her qualification?

the last question I guess can be answered differently by all sorts of people, but I will be read to leave in a fortnight. where do you suggest I visit first in search of the infamous first job. then where would you suggest next. I am thinking Broome or Darwin, But wuold love to stay on the east coast,but It doesnt really matter.

Anyway all input would be really appreciated as at the moment i am quiet confused as to how to go about it.

Cheers. Kev.......:\ :\

[ROCKSTEADY]

"First of all should I take heaps of stuff like I am moving there or just the bear essentials like head sets, log book, sleeping bag etc and other nececities like that ? "

In my opinion, I would suggest you take the bare essentials first, cause whether your driving or flying, you will save quite abit of effort. You can always bring the rest of your **** when you are 'stable' (I wish) and have a job. Just offers more flexibility thats all. This is prominent if you are not driving. There is always the option of you girlfriend brining it up if you cant.

"How long should I plan on being away if say I would like to get around 1000 tt on a single and then maybe a job on a twin and maybe get another 1000 hrs on the twin gining me 2000 tt. How long should this approx take to get ?"

This with your experience can take anywhere between 1 to 2 years. I dont want to sound to harsh, but unfortunately its the way the 'game' works. I think it will be really tough for you and your girlfriend to be able to put up with the **** you will have to both endure until you both have a satisfactory life. Not to say this is impossible. For you both, it might mean getting based in a totally remote area, that is no life for a white guy, let alone a white girl, unless your both from the bustling bush already and/or are totally dedicated to each other. So I would say plan on being away for a very long time if you are dedicated in what you set out to achieve, otherwise, you are kidding yourself and your girlfriend. Nobody is a fortune teller here, so its really just a matter of going with the flow, and if all things go your way, meaning you are one of the lucky, id say at least one year the way things are going to get on a twin. If you want 1000 single and 1000 twin, this might take a few years at least in Australia!!!!

"Should I take my girlfriend with me as she is in a job that can pick up work anywhere in Australia with her qualification?"

This again is totally up to you. Alot of places wont cater for anyone. We just put up with the **** cause we have too. If you want to earn money I suggest get your Forklift licence, as they earn around $30 an hour based in the comfort of their own home, and it doesnt break relationships. They also have stability,super and a future and are not chronic alocholics. What Im trying to say is, dont think for one minute that this will be an easy path. Flying schools treat you like mushrooms. They keep in you in the dark and feed you ****. Becoming a commercial pilot is probably one of the most overrated occupations in Australia, mainly due to pilots in the industry already who think their **** dont stink. Anywhere else in the world, and its so much more easier. We still think we are gods gift to aviation and as a result, companies have high requirements cause they can and soon will be put in there place when they realise when the market picks up that pilots will be leaving left right and centre because noone should have to lose their self respect and be treated like **** just to get ahead. Perservere ****ty sub standard conditions, live in isolated communities and risk your life doing it. Correct me if im wrong but I cant think of any other occupation in the rest of the world (including pilots) that put up with the **** we do and dont have the choice!!! This is what the flying schools dont tell you when you sign up and spend $50000 cause they blow so much wind up your ass that you feel the giddy from the power. Not trying to deter you my friend, just be aware of what this dodgy GA 'game' is all about. Also, now that the price of flying training has increased dramatically, GST, airline wages lowered, landing fees increased, and now ASA charges are an arm an a leg...I doubt there will be many flying schools and GA operators left around at all in this country.


"the last question I guess can be answered differently by all sorts of people, but I will be read to leave in a fortnight. where do you suggest I visit first in search of the infamous first job. then where would you suggest next. I am thinking Broome or Darwin, But wuold love to stay on the east coast,but It doesnt really matter"

This again is up to you. There are so many options out there, and pretty much everybody wants you to go there to put a face to your Resume with your experience. So another sixteen grand is needed unless your skilled in another job (which you might not find in the smaller communities), to go around to all the places, show your face and 'hang out' until they give you a call, and then pay for your endorsement if they so desire.

So it might sound all abit negative, but I dont lie one bit. Thats the saddest part about it. If you were born in another country or have a passport to another, youd have it made.

All I can say is try your hardest like everyone else that tried, eventually something will come if you persist. But dont expect to live in society and, dont expect to get paid more that you would if worked at a video store. Thats all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Reality Bites!!!!!;)

[Fly Kevin]

Hey Rocksteady

All of what you just said did make alot of sence. Im not looking forward to my next few years as Ive heard so many negatives comments about it. However we all have to do it to achieve dont we. Thanks heaps for your advice mate. I really apreciate the effort you put into it.

Kev.

[Capt Claret]

Kev

:mad:

[ROCKSTEADY]

No worries mate...I wish I had this advice before I started flying. But like I said, nobody here is a forutne teller, and if they are, then take their advice.

Just remember one thing.............


Persistance beats Resistance!!!;)

[bushy]

The majority of G.A. operators are genuine people trying to provide a much needed service to people of the outback, in very difficult circumstances. Most of Australia's flying, and the most important flying takes place in the outback. It appears to me that the real "dodgy" thing in Australian aviation is the many flying schools around the coast that are taking large ammounts of people's money, training them for jobs that do not exist, and sending them to the outback where they find out what the truth really is.
If the posters on this forum are any indication, their expectations are unrealistic, and their arrogance is unbelieveable. You do not get to fly an expensive aeroplane by insulting its operator.

[compressor stall]

If you don't look forward to it you won't succeed.

There is an up side to living in Halls Creek, Borroloola, Horn etc. Although at the time it may seem hard!

Those who succeed and move on to the majors almost always look back when flying was a big adventure.

[stuck]

as Stallie said, go out and enjoy it! Sure there is a downside of living in the bush, but with a little effort and the right attitude a lot of fun can be had!

Getting involved with the locals, and meeting people can bring some real surprises and sometimes a lot of good nights down at the local wateringhole! Its probably only for a few years which isn't much in the big picture, but you're attitude definently makes a huge difference to how you will look back on your days in GA.

P.S. Get ready for some great flying adventures too!!

[Tinstaafl]

Minor point, Fly Kevin, but I suggest you avoid using 'marketing bull****' to describe your qualifications. It really can annoy people (including me. :O ) and won't help you if the CP you cold call on is one of them.

Have a look at your licence & read what level of licence it really is.

[redsnail]

Rocksteady,
I don't think any one was having a go at you, "bushy" said this "forum", not this "thread".
Cheers

[itchybum]

fly kevin you should look forward to the years in GA. Don't hold your breath like I did for an airline job because unless you head to Europe or get a cadetship with the rat, it won't happen for a few years yet.

Enjoy the GA flying while it lasts because those years will probably hold the most satisfying, hair-raising and even frightening flying in your career. The hours you log in clapped-out lighties will fuel the stories you tell in the pub during layovers in your future jet-job.

Like most, you'll probably look back and think how much more you'd have enjoyed the GA jobs if you'd known your future was assured. So my advice would be... treat your time in GA as though your future jet job is assured.

Take minimum crap and leave the g/f until later. She might get bored following you along on ''the rounds''. On the other hand, having a g/f, especially if she's charming, may help you out when you're mixing as a "wannabe" with the established crowd of GA pilot knobs. It sets you apart from the single baggy-arsed flat-broke new CPLs and could help portray you as being a man of "class".

....just don't leave her alone with them.

[geeup]

Excellent advice all round!


The girlfriend issue, does she have an idea of what she will be getting herself into? Communities are not the nicest places, im guessing she probably a nurse or teacher be prepared for her to be called a phucking kunt and a white slut all day. If she follows it will surely test the relationship!

[Fly Kevin]

Yeah mate your ight I suppose.
I guess it wouldnt be the best few years for her. Yeah she is a teacher. Then again as all you guys said It would definately be an adventure. I am looking forward to it, but just a little uneasy about what lies ahead, but then again that is the fun of it.
Thanks for all your help.
Appreciated,

Kev.

[High Altitude]

Teachers on communities are very very very in demand most times.

Great leg in the door to an operator if the missus has a job and gets accomodation. Try Yirkala then give me a call...

[Checkerboard]

Tinstaafl,

When you say avoid using 'marketing bull****' are you referring to to Kevin using 'frozen ATPL'?

Really, if this annoys you I hate to see what makes you angry. This is a common way of desrcibing your licence around the world when you hold ATPL's without the hours!

As he points out himself Kevin, this is a very minor point for people with strange pecularaties!!!!!!!!
:D

[Tinstaafl]

Yes, I am. And no, it's not common 'around the world'. Eurocentric - particularly the UK, yes, but not around the world.

The term is understandable in the UK where there is a history within the aviation system whereby people go straight from training to the RHS of an airline - in many cases a training sponsoring airline. The flight logging rules in the UK support this system by making it possible to meet the flight experience requirements to eventually qualify for the issue of an ATPL. Mind you, the licence held is a CPL. There's not one mention of an airline transport licence in the CAA's records nor in the issued licence. It's even a different colour to distinguish it from the ATPL...

Anyway, it doesn't magically 'melt' into an ATPL even when the hours are reached. The candidate must still apply AND have a recent flight test of an approved form eg a company proficiency check. Admittedly these things would normally occur in the course of employment but not guaranteed.

Not so in Oz. In the extremely unlikely event that someone should gain their first position on a MP type then they'll *never* qualify for the ATPL **unless** they also manage to do a substantial amount of flying on a SP type. Oz logging rules prevent the accrual of the necessary PIC time otherwise. I even advised the Ansett cadets that they'll need to find a way of obtaining the PIC time if they ever wish to get a command within their company (except those sent to Aeropelican). The qualification they held when they finished their training at BAe/Ansett didn't, in fact, qualify them for an ATPL, no matter how long they worked for Hazelton, Skywest, Ansett etc. So....nothing 'frozen' there then. It would be more correct to say they have a frozen CPL :E. The situation is the same for everyone else.

It *is* a marketing bull**** term that has a relatively recent history of use in Oz. It first started being used by 'sausage factory' schools a number of years ago as a way of differentiating and 'enhancing' their product compared to their competitors - often with an impressive picture of a 747 or whatever in the glossy ad & some vague wording implying that training at that establishment leaves the potential student at the head of the airline employment queue.

Doesn't change the facts though: The privileges granted are those of a CPL. The limitations are those of a CPL. The licence held is is a CPL, not ATPL as you assert. If you think CPL is an ATPL then I suggest you have a closer look at the words printed on it and then check the regs. about what those words mean. :rolleyes:

[Watchdog]

I agree....target your description of what qualifications you have, to the job you are applying for. I'd only call it a 'frozen ATPL' to an airline taking cadets etc, but to the GA operator who's biggest equipment has a MTOW < 5700kg, I'd say "CPL."

Even though the employer knows you will move on one day, it sounds a bit "I am I am". Displaying confidence, competence and a 'can-do' attitude, and not "an airline pilot" will come across better to a perspective GA employer.

Good advice is to care about the owners equipment like its yours.

Good luck:ok:

[Fly Kevin]

Hey Checkerboard,

I totally agree with you. I just couldnt be bothered replying to such a low life dead ****. I asked for honest advice and all he could give me was that crap. Like I care about what he thinks the jargon associated with aviation. Like you said, if this annoys him, how would he react to a real situation that angered him.

Thanks.

[Tinstaafl]

Fly Kevin, take it how you like. It matters little to me. *I'm* not the one competing with many, many, many (how many 'many's' would you like?) others to get on the very first rung of the ladder - unlike you. YOU'RE the one who will be calling cap-in-hand to operators hoping they like you enough to give you a job. My suggestion was made knowing that this is just one small thing that YOU can do to reduce the very high rejection rate.

You're at the bottom of a very competitive ladder, sport. You're the one that has to prove to a prospective employer that you have something they want while christ know's how many others are doing the same. You also have to show you don't have something they don't like. You would be well advised to learn the skill of debating the topic instead of resorting to insult. Even when you don't like an answer.

[grrowler]

FK,

If I was you I would take on board tinstaafl's advise, along with a lot of other good advise you can get from here and from others who've "been there, done that". If you get offended by little comments like that (not sure how it was offensive??) you're gonna struggle in GA.

Trust me, little things like writing frozen ATPL can make a difference. If you are keen for some advise;

A 2 page resume is heaps. As mentioned, try to think of quals or skills you might have that are relevant to the job. They don't care if you played in the school mixed netball team or if you were a prefect in yr 6.

Don't try to hide your hours. They should be the first thing the CP should see when s/he picks up your rez. Again highlight the hours applicable to the job (mostly TT, multi, maybe night, and endorsements for your first job).

Don't try too hard to make your rez stand out. I've seen resumes, for example, with an attached biz card with a photo of the prospective employee dressed in full regalia and standing next to a duchess. It just makes you look like a bit of a w@nka. To make it stand out you need to establish a rapport with the CP or other company pilots.

Anyway they're a few of my suggestions.

Good luck

:ok:

[Fly Kevin]

ok,
thanks for the advice

kev

[Capt Claret]

Given that Tinstaafl's message Minor point, Fly Kevin, but I suggest you avoid using 'marketing bull****' to describe your qualifications.

elicited the response of I just couldnt be bothered replying to such a low life dead ****. I asked for honest advice and all he could give me was that crap. Like I care about what he thinks the jargon associated with aviation. Like you said, if this annoys him, how would he react to a real situation that angered him.

I'd now suggest you leave the girlfriend behind as unless you lose those shoulder chips you'll not get too far.

[Chris Higgins]

If you're mechanically inclined, try to work in the hangar with the LAMEs. I found that this worked for me in Katherine and Mt Isa. A lot of the engineers will gladly put in the good word and then you'll find yourself in a 210, "haulin' the mail".

I've never been unemployed in my life. Most pilots tend to "wait" for that job to come up. It doesn't. Your first "job" is finding a job and you should spend no less than 8 hours a day on resumes, e-mail and telephone.

Aviation for me has delivered so much more than I ever could have believed. I have seen some of the best places and met some of the greatest people I could ever have imagined.

My wife has asked me to not look so happy when I leave the house, but it's hard when I am told to go to a tropical island in a private jet for four days and stay at a beach side resort.

Once upon a time I wanted to fly for Qantas. Now I just hope that I can do thirty years with this employer.

Keep the faith!

[bypasspin]

I'm also just a new CPL with about 250 hours and I am heading up to the Kimberlies/ Kununnunara. I know it's the wrong time of year but im going anyway and am willing to stay there for 1 year or more if thats what it takes.

All I wanted to know that I have not learnt on this site is "what are the CP's like" and how nice are they to newbies in town?
Do they talk to you face to face just take your CV and send you walking??? I have heard some interesting stories from other pilots and wanted to know if any were true? ie. is it true the AA CP is a bit skitzo and scared off all of last years pilots????

Thanks
BPP:O

[CAPTAINOZ]

Hey Kev,

Mate, i suggest you pull your head in a tad. You havent even left Sydney yet, and you're already pissing people off in the Aviation industry! These blokes are giving you honest, valuable advice on what the first few years are like in this game, and you should be grabbing every bit of advice thats given to you! Its the only thing you will get for free in flying, something you can never get too much of. For all you know, some of these dudes could be a future resepective chief pilot. Aviation is a very small industry and you'd be surprised how easy it is to find out who you are. Suggest you start a clean slate with everyone on here again sunshine!

Good luck. ;)

[PPRuNe Radar]

For all you know, some of these dudes could be a future resepective chief pilot. Aviation is a very small industry and you'd be surprised how easy it is to find out who you are. Suggest you start a clean slate with everyone on here again sunshine!

Another piece of spot on (and free !!!) advice.

Memories also last a long time and the Chief Pilot 'old boys' network can easilly put a kiss of death on a career.

Maybe starting a clean slate with a new user name of 'Grounded Kevin' would be more apt :}

Heed the advice and use it well .... that, and a lot of luck, are needed to go places in aviation. :ok:

[tcasalert]

My advice is to keep a positive attitude. I don't think many people get to do what they really love... We do. OK, we don't get paid well in the beginning, and we have to spend a fair amount of time bashing around the bush, but if you do keep a positive attitude you and your flying will be better for it and you will look back on it as an adventurous time.

[Wunala]

tcasalert,

I fully agree with you, if you have patience and tolerance then you will make it as a pilot in aviation. A lot of people don't even fly for money, flying itself is a big reward!

Be patient, do it step by step, think closely and take all chances you get. Work very hard in the GA and you'll most likely get a job in an airline. I dare it's VERY possible to get a job in the airlines, you just have to work real hard. Think of those who make it in the airlines, not those who don't. A majority of people who don't make it in airlines is because they give up too easily and then influence other people that it's impossible to get a job.

In short, work hard, have patience, have tolerance, have fun and you will get a position in the airlines just like those who have got a position already. Remember that it is 100% possible but in order to make it 100% possible, you will have to work for it.

Everyone can do it! Just have a bit of what I listed above and you WILL make it.

Good luck :ok:

Wunala