Helicopter FlightSims

[paulo]

I'm a PPL(A) flying aeros, with a miniscule 20 mins an R44, who has just bought flight sim to practice radio nav and generally amuse myself during our wonderful british weather.. .. .Anyway, I thought I'd have a play with the sim Jet Ranger as it has some novelty value for a fixed wing pilot, and wondered if any of you rotor gang can give me some tips - either from real flying or playing with the sim.. .. .(a) How do you make an approach? I've been lowering the collective and pitching forward, trying to get GS down to something low-ish like 30 kts. Is there any kind of target GS?. .(b) Flaring? Do you pull some collective? Do you pull alot? I end always end up.... .(c) ...backwards, which doesn't seem to be fixed by a good chunk of forward cyclic.. .. .I'm probably expecting a bit much after a couple of hours - it took me a good 20+ hours to land real fixed wing.

[Grainger]

Paulo:. .. .You'll need an approach speed of 60-70kts until the last 100 feet or so. Then flare slightly to reduce to 50 kts at 50 feet, 40 kts at 40 feet and so on - as you do so you'll need to gradually bring in the power again by raising collective until you reach the hover - 0 kts at 0 feet.. .. .All the time while you're doing this, you need to keep your eyes _outside_ - maintaining a consistent 'sight picture' of your intended approach point. Keep looking at that spot and you'll fly to it.. .. .Tricky enough in a real helicopter: the problem I found on flight sim is that the controls are just far too sensitive on a standard joystick or so, and there isn't the range of movement that you need. Even with a full yoke, you don't have a proper collective lever, so it can be very tricky to fly on the sim.. .. .Good luck !. . . . <small>[ 04 March 2002, 12:35: Message edited by: Grainger ]</small>

[RW-1]

Grainger is spot on, I only wanted to note that there has been a lot of speculation on the quality of the flight model for the 206 in FS.. .. .Most of that being that depending upon your setup ('puter) and graphic needs of the program, that the remaining available frame rate isn't smooth enough to let you fly the heli well in an approach, and hover, etc.. .. .If you find this to be true on your system, you can either turn down the additionals in the program to ease the load on the graphics card, and (with my system anyway) I find I have to do running landings <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Overall I much prefer the real 206, if it were not so darned expensive hehe ...

[paulo]

Glad to hear that some real helo pilots have played with the sim - I don't feel so sad now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> . .. .Grainger, thanks for the advice! Now at least I know what I ought to be doing - let's see if I've got the patience. The trouble is, once I get really annoyed with it, I know what I'll go and do. Book another lesson. Oh how I thought I'd shaken off this financial demon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> . .. .My setup is a VAIO, 1 gig Pentium. Frame rate seems reasonable, and I've got a force feedback joystick which is good - kind of reminds me of my R44 jolly where the instructor was cautioning me on stick movement, particularly because I was a fixed wing pilot (luckily his "don't move it, think it" advice seemed to pay off).. .. .The same stick on fixed wing sim demands realistic levels of movement. It even rattles on dodgy taxiways :-). .. .Right, time to go home and do some more practice.

[NigD]

Couldn't seem to get the hang of the 206 of FS2000 so I downloaded the HEMS explorer and the Blackhawk off some German flightsim website (sad or what) but these proved just as hard to land. . .I couldnt visualise if I was drifting quickly enough to stop it and found i toppled/bounced the heli quite a lot, or maybe I'm just crap at flightsims.. .Still, no bones broken and its damn good fun putting concorde into vertical climbs and descents and picturing those pampered (very rich) passengers in the back (oops there goes my chance of ever converting fixed wing and joining BA).. .. .If you want to pracise instrument flying RANT2000 is a reasonable piece of software.. .. .Regards. .. .NigD

[advancing_blade]

Paulo. .. .A useful tip I was given, is to keep a relative walking speed out side (lateraly) in the approach, as you descend this will keep the speed about right, but try not to lose translational lift too early. On the FS2000 you might try the virtual cockpit view, rather than the panel view. The problem realy, IMHO is that you don't get the motion or visual sensations that you require to stay stable (like inadvertant IMC in a helo). . .. .If you fancy helicopter sims, try SAR II which is flying a US coast guard Dauphine (with winch ops and all, or for super photo realistic panels where EVERYTHING works, try Fly II by terminal reality, beats the socks of FS and only about £15. I bought it for the turbine starts and checks (yes very sad) but there is a 407 to fly (which I find almost impossible) and lots of slabs if thats your thing. These are very authentic aircraft with full checks and start, pre start etc. Also you might try getting a seperate throtle control which can easily be adapted to a collective position

[CyclicRick]

I managed an engine off on it once!. .Helicopter Sims are not as good as fixed wing, I find them far too restrictive. Landing a full size sim is bad enough with only forward visual reference, especially when your used to the real thing.. .Keep going though, you'll get the hang of it one day...or trash it!

[Cron]

Get an old office chair, remove the left hand side armrest, get your throttle control, reverse the axis, attach end of old umberella handle to throttle (emulate collective), attach throttle to left hand side of chair at about handbrake height, set realism to medium, turn up the torque to max. (get some torque/rudder pedals). Place stick on lap somehow (bit of board maybe attached to desk underside). Works reasonably well for R22 but no decent R22's available yet for FS2002 until MS release the SDK.

[paulgibson]

I have found that the easiest way to fly the heli on FS2000 is to change the view so you are looking at it from behind, slightly to the left and above. This is particularly useful close to the ground as the shadow the heli casts gives a good reference point. The most crucial thing to flying it successful is pedal control IMHO. If you can download a Chinook it is good fun and the sound is quiet good.

[Paul Ledbury]

I'm taking my PPL(H) skills tests next week so I'm still learning, but IMHO FS2000 is nothing like the real (rotary) thing - I got the impression that the sim just flies rotary as a fixed wing with zero stall speed. It doesn't seem to know how to respond properly to attitude/power settings (eg low power/raised nose and the aircraft climbs when it should be flaring/descending). I chucked it in the bin. Without a better sim engine and decent controls (as per previous posts <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="smile.gif" /> ), it's just a game and not a simulator.

[paulo]

Cron,. .. .For the R22, if you use your toilet rather than an office chair, can you also simulate ****ting yourself on a low rotor RPM warning?. .. . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="biggrin.gif" />

[Irlandés]

No point reinventing the wheel here. If you want to learn to fly the Bell on FS go to...

http://members.shaw.ca/hoversafe/Hoversafe.htm

They'll tell you all you need to know. A good system and the correct setting up of that system is crucial otherwise you'll just get annoyed with it all. But simming can be an important tool if you you're aware of its shortcomings. I did quite a bit before starting my PPL training (nearly finished). I wish I had a good maching here where I'm training to practice on. Can save you a lot of time and money. Alas...

Ciao!
Irlandés

[Barannfin]

Try using X-Plane, it is fairly realistic. Well dont let me get carried away, I managed to land a 22 on the deck of a frigate in 15ft seas , during a thunderstorm (yea right).

Anyways the aerodynamics are acceptable and its good fun.

[ptwaugh]

Hey,

Thanks for responding.

I noticed in cockpit pictures on airliners.net that there are 20 caution lights on the annunciator.

I would like to compile a list of them (annunciation, color, and perhaps function if not apparent) left to right, top to bottom perhaps.

Thanks,

Patrick

[Capt Hollywood]

G'day Patrick,

I just happen to have a copy of the B206III flight manual with me, the manual lists the caution lights as follows;

L to R top row : Spare, Spare, Spare, Spare or Gen Fail, A/F Fuel Filter, Fuel filter, Engine chip, Battery Hot, Trans Oil Press, Eng Out

L to R bottom row : Spare, Fuel low, Spare, Spare, Fuel pump, T/R Chip, Trans Chip, Battery Temp, Trans Oil Temp, Low Rotor RPM

All lights are orange except for the Battery Hot and Eng Out lights.

Hope that helps. :ok:

Cheers,

Hollywood :cool:

[BlenderPilot]

There are 20 but there are some 206's that only use 10, the others are optional, even some like FUEL LOW and GEN.

Other spare ones I have seen installed are, ENGINE RELIGHT, WPT, CALL, ENG FIRE, etc.

You can download the image below and print it and you will have a list, sorry about the bad quality but I just had some spare time, a camera and a computer with PS.

http://homepage.mac.com/helipilot/PPRuNe/206JRSegments2.jpg

[Rotor1]

Patrick
If the ship has floats it will have the top left spare filled with float armed ,amber. and if it is fitted with a tactical air filter it will have the bottom left spare filled with alt air amber
cheers Rotor1 :ok:

[ptwaugh]

What is "Tactical Air"?

Is this for a ship operating in a Chem/Bio environment?

Thanks for all the great info. New cockpit for FS2004 is coming along nicely. :cool:

Patrick

[leemind]

Just a quick opinion if you have one... How is FS2004 for rotary vs say X-Plane 7.0? I'd heard FS2002 wasn't so good with the Jetranger but I was wondering if they improved it for this release.

Cockpit in X-Plane for 206 is pretty good. Flight characteristics are a little odd....

Cheers!

D.

[ptwaugh]

Well, IMHO, 2004 has made some vast improvements over 2002. As you add torque, you'll feel that familiar need to put in some left pedal on liftoff to hover, and flying at cruise the need for a bit of right to hold the nose on heading.

You'll want to set your realism to max, then back off general by one click to have the best rotorwing experience. You'll also want zero null zones on the flight controls with max sensitivity to get the response you need for hover.

Personally, I fly with the view at 0.75 for the most periferial vision without distortion and find it to be more than adequate to hover. I also stick with the 2D cockpit, but mainly because without the feel of the ship under you, you'll need those instruments which are bigger and in easy view.

I am building a custom cockpit complete with with GPS on the dash, a HUD, and a stereo for jamming while exploring at 115 knots at 5 ft AGL.

Oh, and nothing beats Megascenery, expect the real thing.

[ptwaugh]

Thanks for all the previous info, the new cockpit is nearing completion!

I have a couple of other questions about the annuciators.

1) On the red warning lights (engine out and battery hot) is it black letters on the red light, or red letters on a black background.

2) On the amber cautions lights, same thing, is it black letters/amber letters?

When I get this thing done, I'm going to post it up on HoverControl.com.

You can check out an early version picture at:

http://www.hovercontrol.net/web_pages/upload/HC001ST_Cockpit.gif

[GLSNightPilot]

The answer is yes. Some one way, some the other, about 50/50 on most of the ones I've flown, IIRC. It's been awhile since I flew a 206.

[John Eacott]

For a BIII, it's black letters on a coloured background.

[ptwaugh]

Could you tell me the behavior of the annuciator lights (I'm simulating their behavior) on startup?

For example: The Low Rotor remains off unless you try to raise the collective while N2 rpm is below 90%.

2nd question: Are you refered to as "Jetranger {callsign}" or "Bell {callsign} by ATC"?

For example:

You: Los Angeles tower, Jetranger N001ST inbound on the Industrial over the radar dome.

ATC: Jetranger N001ST, report mid-field abeam.

Thanks,

Patrick

[ptwaugh]

When you call a Jetranger, do you say, "Jetranger N001ST" or "Bell N001ST".

Obviously, I'm refering to a non-commercial flight.

Thanks for your help.

Patrick

[Scott Voigt]

Howdy;

In the US, it would be Helicopter, copter, Bell or Jet Ranger. All would be correct. Oh yes, there is also just using the N number...

regards

Scott H. Voigt
NATCA Southwest Region
Safety and Technology Chairman

[1261]

....and thanks to a recent change in legislation, the same would be true in the UK.

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

Patrick asked:Could you tell me the behavior of the annuciator lights (I'm simulating their behavior) on startup?

For example: The Low Rotor remains off unless you try to raise the collective while N2 rpm is below 90%.

2nd question: Are you refered to as "Jetranger {callsign}" or "Bell {callsign} by ATC"?Let's take the second question first. No, Patrick, only pretentious S-76 pilots feel the need to announce to everyone on the frequency that they are "SIKORSKY! Seven-Six-Uniform-Tango." The rest of us simply make do with "Helicopter So-and-So." Here in the U.S., nobody cares what particular make/model helo you're flying.

As far as the 206 annunciator panel, the "Low Rotor" light will be ON anytime the rotor is below 90% NR, no matter where you position the collective. However, if you do raise the collective while the "Low Rotor" light is on, you'll now hear the low rotor HORN blow.

During start-up in a 206B, you should be seeing the "Eng Out," "Low Rotor," and "Trans Press" caution lights on.

[Spitoon]

1261, what change to legislation? Just curious because I'm not aware of any changes - and I've been happy to use any of Scott's options for years.

[1261]

I can't find the actual change. I'm basing that on the fact that whilst I was at the college (1999) we were not allowed to use aircraft types (eg. "jetranger ST") but by the time I did my radar validation (a year later) we were.

Come to think of it, it could just be that I had duff instructors. :)

EDIT: In fact, Spitoon - you're quite correct; I've since found the right page in the book and that phraseology has been okay in the UK since 1996! Second option must be true after all.....

[Vfrpilotpb]

Anouncing yourself to the ATC, it varies from Pilot to Pilot, some will say Jetranger Golf Yankee Sierra, or some would say Helicopter Golf Yankee Sierra, or when questioned by ATC I have heard some give the model number , I dont think there is any set down title anouncement, as long as the ATC girl/boy know what they are looking for!:ok:

[Lon More]

A Miracle if it can get above FL245:\

[RW-1]

As for model, you can or not. ATC may request it if they want to get an idea of how slow (compared to FW) you are, or are capable of going :)

[Camp Freddie]

where I have I been ?
I thought I had flown round the UK a lot, obviously when you pass your details when asked for them you say your type e.g "Bell 206 5 miles south of leicester etc etc"

but on the very first call you give full call sign and all subsequent contacts when addressed by ATC in the abbreviated format, you say " Helicopter Golf echo romeo" dont you?

someone who says every call "Jetranger Golf echo romeo" would be considered by me to be at the very least a tw*t, and I dont mean twit.

I have never heard anyone do this, I was taught, have taught everyone else to say "helicopter"

have i been missing something ?
sounds like a case of little man syndrome if you need to say that kind of thing. hey mr Vfrpilotpb, where have you heard all this ? or have I misunderstood you?

[RW-1]

CF,

True, however depending on where one is, freq congestion may prevent it.

Where I am it will be helicopter for all xmissions in the blind, such as at an uncontrolled field.

With a tower or departure/approach I'll use helicopter thrice, when first contacting the facility, when contacting them to request a freq chnge, and for the acknowledgement to their response thereof.

Between those times it's usually just the last three, such as 4VH.

[2 sheds]

1261

When you were at the College, there was no question of "duff instructors" or of you not being "allowed" to use such callsigns. That type of callsign was - and is - included in the relevant classroom work and one or two examples were included in the practical exercises. However, most trainees (evidently including you), at that stage, are not astute enough to latch on to that type of callsign that the pilot has initiated and "revert to type" and just use the registration. You would also have been referred to the relevant reference in MATS Part 1.

[1261]

Evidently yes, I was not astute enough.....

Alas, MATS Part 1 references were pretty thin on the ground when I was at college.

I didn't mean that to be a personal slur on instructors at the college - hence the smiley face. But if the cap fits, wear it.

[Spitoon]

2 sheds, you're very touchy!

it's a long time since I was at the college of knowledge but i remember a distinct variation in the quality of instructors - one or two were excellent and some were very definitely duff. open your eyes - can you honestly say that this isn't the case now? it happens in all walks of life - i'd be surprised if the college is any different.

and given the amount of stuff that a trainee has to take in during their time at the college, one or two examples in practical exercises is not a lot of exposure to something. you expect trainees to latch on to things (if they're astute enough) - i always thought that that was where the instructors could make a difference.

no smiley from me - if you're not prepared to accept that there are weaknesses in something, you're never going to improve it. is the college and its output perfect?

[2 sheds]

Chaps

Sorry if I appeared to be touchy! But to suggest in this particular context that "duff instructors" could be blamed, I thought was inappropriate, shall we say. 1261, thank you for your clarification.

One could blame insufficient exposure to different callsigns in the design of simulator exercises perhaps or insufficient attention by the trainee to the detail in the MATS Part 1. However, all trainees have that document in their possession, though I believe that it is no longer a personal "for life" issue, which I think is a retrograde step.

I do not think that inclusion of every type of callsign in exercises would necessarily be useful. That would mean an over-emphasis on that aspect, almost certainly to the detriment of the ATC techniques being practised and would also have to include military styles of callsigns along with their respective varying abbreviation criteria. Unfortunately, the first time that trainee ATCOs are currently exposed to practical RTF training is concurrent with the first Rating (Aerodrome) training.

When both the flying training was done more thoroughly and an RTF licence was required to operate the aircraft radio equipment, this area was necessarily addressed in more detail. I think that it would be far more appropriate if a specific RTF licence were required - as, indeed, it was at one time - before the issue of a Student ATCO licence.

However, as you might be aware, the structure of the training courses is changing w.e.f. 2004 and the first rating course will be preceded by a generic "Introductory" Course. This will necessarily include basic, non rating-specific RTF training and this will present a prime opportunity for aspects such as this to be addressed in more detail.

2 S

[niknak]

Patrick,

To get back to your original point, in the UK, the vast majority of units will not differentiate between aircraft types in that respect.
Some may refer to a helicopter as "helicopter N100ST", but thereafter it's just plain old abbreviated N'0ST".

I've never seen the point in prefixing an aircraft's registration with it's type, if there's any ambiguity, make them use full callsign and that will hopefully solve any difficulty.

I am pleased to read what 2 sheds has written, too many atco's come out of the college's spouting MATS part 1 verbatum combined with their own instructors slant on what's in or out, and it sounds bloody awful.
R/T should be precise and concise, nothing more, nothing less.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

I can't for the life of me work out why you would prefix a callsign with anything. I know from my strip (or when I was back in Oz my label on my screen) what aircraft type he was. Hopefully the pilot knows, or he's in real strife. I'll let the other aircraft in the sky know what he is if I need to pass traffic, so the reason for the prefix is.....

If its due to callsign confusion, i'd agree with the previous post, get full readbacks and you'll be right.

I have to admit I've wanted to prefix callsigns with certain words but not exactly aircraft type if you know what I mean.

[tiggur]

From my experience of working at a couple of the busier GA fields in the UK, it can be quite useful including the type with the callsign. For one thing it helps the low hour student who is number 4 in the downwind leg if he knows what types are in the pattern ahead and around him.

Not much use to the radar guys though...

Tiggur

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Yeh I was talking from an area radar/procedural perspective, sorry didn't think of you guys in towers, working on your suntans

[ptwaugh]

Be an angel if you can. I know this is asking alot, but here's what I seek.

1) Interior photos of a B206B III from pilot's perspective looking: forward, up, forward left & right, left & right, left & right rear. Can you guess why yet? Yep, for an FS2004 virtual cockpit model. I will use these as the basis for the "views" when you move the hat in FS, so you know what I mean.

2) Any tech reference material that would be interesting to a sim pilot, such as a start procedure.

3) Lastly, I need to get some sound .wav files of the start and engine running. Also curious how long it takes to spin up.

We have decided to take this thing to the next level, and rebuild the 206 from the ground up so we can put in working rigging and model failures of systems.

You will have my undying graditude, and when it's finished, I'll get anyone who helps out a copy when it's finished to fly! Although after a long day of flying the real thing, I'm pretty sure you're not as interested in flying a sim.

Hope I'm not bugging you guys too much, you have all been a big help. Funny how as a Special Forces and later intell guy I flew in them all the time, but never really appreciated the experience till now.

Thanks, Patrick

[GLSNightPilot]

I'm certain there are BIII's in California. Why not go to an airport & take your own photos, & if you're really nice, you may be able to get them to crank one up so you can tape the sound, etc. Nothing like seeing & hearing this stuff first-hand.

[ptwaugh]

Yes. No better way to make sure I get it right. Besides, then I can ask the pilot a bunch of pesky questions!!! Haha :p

[GLSNightPilot]

Most pilots will be glad to answer them. Just show the appropriate shock and awe & you can get all the answers you want. :cool: :D :ok:

[ptwaugh]

Is the angle offset from the longitudinal 5.5 degrees as it is for the TH-57?

Thanks

[Vfrpilotpb]

It is on the B206 L3.:ok:

[BlenderPilot]

Funny how I have been at the controls of a Jet Ranger for more than a 1000 hours and I have no idea. I always look at the fuselage from a distance (especially during maintenance acceptance flights)
to look for unusual skin wrinkes, slipped skids or stuff and I had previously noted the stabilizer was offset but . . .

[ptwaugh]

You mean your IERW instructor didn't make you tell him the number of stator blades in the turbine? :O

[Ascend Charlie]

Next time you look at your Long Ranger, try to work out why the vertical fin is offset in one direction, but the endplates on the horizontal stabiliser are pointed in the other direction??!!:confused:

[ptwaugh]

Hi again,

I know the blade has 5 degrees of twist to even out the lift with the difference between the root and tip speed. This leads to the obvious question (since I'm modeling the sucker) of what the pitch of the blade is with zero collective, ie what is the root's cord angle of attack at zero collective?

Also, how far can the collective pitch the blades?

Also, as the rotor system is underslung with 2.25 degress of pre-coning, (I guess this means each blade up from the level), how far can the rotor disk "tilt" with full cyclic?

I'm also guessing that the blades only pitch so much, so maybe a better way for me to understand it is how much can a blade pitch max, given a max collective and max cyclic deflection.

Finally, after reading alot on the net about underslund rotors, I'm understanding now (I hope) how it is setup on the 206. I'm guessing by what I have read, that on the 206, the rotor head maintains a constant cone on the blades, and just moves about the trunion to allow the 'cone' to tilt and this eliminates the need for leading and lagging as there is no change in distance of the tips to center of mass with this teeter.

Thanks for any information,

Patrick

[Shawn Coyle]

I don't have the numbers you want, but otherwise you appear to be on the right track.
I'm curious to know why you're modeling the rotor, though.

[ptwaugh]

Hi,

I'm modeling it as part of a flyable package for MS Flight Sim 2004, because I love the B206, and the default helicopters in Microsoft are poor, with lots of mistakes. :yuk:

After creating a custom cockpit and programming real world controls and redoing the flight dynamics, I figured I might as well go the rest of the way and redo the model as well.

Model is largely done, but now I'm doing the animation for it, and I'm trying to do things that have never been done before with helicopter models in the sim.

Patrick

[ptwaugh]

Does the B206/TH-57/OH-58 have Delta-3? If so how much? In the case of zero delta-3, then 100% of cyclic gets through to the rotor, ie. if you move cyclic 5 degrees, the swash moves 5 degrees, and then the rotor disk tilts 5 degrees.

I'm also trying to determine the max cyclic movement, and max rotor disk tilt.

Appreciate any input,

Patrick
[email protected]

[BlenderPilot]

I'm guessing you are talking about the T/R, I have no idea how much delta it has but it's not zero.

The manual says:

rotor flapping is allowed by a delta hinge for stability during hovering turns and fwd flight.

Why would you want to know?

It reminds me of when I used to know all this weird stuff (and only this)

[ptwaugh]

Well, no, I'm talking about the main rotor.

I'm modeling these helo's in exisite detail (sometimes it seems down to the washer, haha), and need to know just how much to tilt the rotor disk relative to cyclic movement.

[BlenderPilot]

The MR does not have any of that "delta" stuff.

Modelling? Why don't you post a picture of your modelling? Would be interesting.

[NickLappos]

The main rotor of the Bell 206 has no significant delta three coupling.

See this page I just put up:

http://www.s-92heliport.com/delta.htm


The sketch came from here:

http://www.hsn-heli-nordbayern.de/bell206f.jpg

Some great Pprune discussion of delta three, and good informative Dave Jackson web pages referenced:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=99492&highlight=delta+three

[ptwaugh]

Sure, great idea.

Well, here is where it all began.... the early rotors baldes... before the addition of 5 degrees geometric twist, and 2.25 degrees of pre-coning. Still haven't figured out where to align the cord angle at zero collective, neutral cyclic.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ptwaugh/images/rotors.jpg

And here is an early panel design which includes working annunciators and failures. It is being redesigned nearly from scratch, thanks to a nice trojan.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ptwaugh/images/B206Panel.jpg

And finally, the state of the model itself. This is only one of several variations that will eventually be offered, including low and high skids (maybe floats), WSPSs, etc.

http://home.earthlink.net/~ptwaugh/images/model.gif

It will part of a package for FS that will contain adventures Fams, complete FMs and procedures.

Ah, just as I thought, if the pitch horns lead by 90 degs, then delta must be zero.

Anybody know how I should line up the rotor cord?

Thanks,

Patrick

[BlenderPilot]

Rotor Chord position is variable, we get helicopters in from all parts of the country for service and the auto RPM's are adjusted for the elevation at which the aircraft is to be routinely flown.

For example during maintenance I ask the mechanics to adjust full down collective pitch angle to maintain proper RPM here in Mexico City which is at 7500FT, and then the customer takes the helicopter the helicopter to sea level, an tests his auto RPM, the helicopter is going to have trouble maintaining proper auto RPM's with anything but full down collective, and if he tries it when he's at low weight he might not even get above 90% NR, so he's going to have to adjust his full down collective pitch even lower.

So you see its a variable thing depending on different factors, but looking at it from the ground it looks like 2or3 degrees negative at the tips when collective is full down.

Thanks for posting your models, that looks pretty impressive!

[ptwaugh]

Wow, hadn't even considered that, but it makes total sense aerodynamically. Funny that you say 2-3 degrees, as I choose +2 at the root, and -3 at the tip, haha. I guess well I guess.

And thanks for the encouraging comments!

I'll post some more pics as I get the thing closer to completion. Pprune members have been a big help.

Thanks,

Patrick

[ptwaugh]

Hey guys,

From the FAM1 flight gouge:

12. Normal/Recover Switch. The normal/recover switch in the TH-57C should be in the "recover" position between official sunset and sunrise.

Anyone tell me what this does?

Thanks, Patrick

[[email protected]]

Yes, I've got one of these...in my owners manual it says I have to be put in the recovery position between sunset and sunrise...is it the same thing d'ya think?

[ptwaugh]

Hmmm.... if you have one, then my question was what is it for?

Also, looking to determine what the abreviation DECCA on a fuse is refering too.

thanks for the help.

Stick

[Camp Freddie]

in the context I know it DECCA was a navigation system which operated on the principle of hyperbolics (hyperbollocks even) which was used in the north sea, uk area, the last DECCA chains went offline there on 1/4/2000.

dont know where else it was used, or have I completely missd the point (I dont know)

[ptwaugh]

That makes sense, as the pic I have was from an aussie machine and suggests it is still used down under.

Thanks, Patrick

[heedm]

Just a wild guess, but since a generator fail results in loss of power to the fuel pump when in NORMAL, I'm guessing that RECOVER connects the fuel pump to an essential bus or battery bus (not sure of the electric system). This makes a bit of sense wrt the use of the Normal/Recover switch since this means an engine failure at night will require fewer switches to recover the engine.

Again, just a guess. I've never flown the TH-57C.

[ptwaugh]

Thanks. As you know, the TH-57 is a military B206, so if you know one, you'll probably be on course with the other.

Stick

[Ascend Charlie]

Decca down under?? No, that is a North Atlantic thing.

In Oz, it used to be a record label, but that's about it. We had VLF Omega for a while, but even that is gone with the arrival of GPS.

Try asking this question on a military forum?

[ptwaugh]

Good idea... and I would, if I knew of one. =)

But, I know who I can ask that is military.

Thanks all,

Stick

[NickLappos]

ptwaugh,

I did some net cruising and found the explanation. That switch is the essential bus control switch, albeit poorly labeled. The TH-57 only has a generator and a battery, so electric power is minimal, and the battery will only last a short while after generator failure. The system dumps most loads automatically if the gen fails, including the fuel boost pumps and some lighting (I think). For safety, the pilot selects the "recover" position while flying in darkness to override the load sheding. See:


http://www.bryanweatherup.com/gouge/Advanced/CPT/cpt3.shtml

[ptwaugh]

You're awesome. Funny thing is that was the guy I was going to email! I had seen the gouge site months ago, but must have missed that.

Thanks for all your help.

Patrick

[John Bicker]

Similar arrangement on the 205A/A-1 as it was derived from the UH-1H etc. UH-1 (I Think) has two generators which supply two busses. One is the Starter Generator and one is driven by the Main GB generator. On the 205 you have a Non Essential and Essential Bus. When the engine sops the Non Essential is shed. There was a selector switch for Non Essential AUTO or MANUAL. Where we used to operate it was kept in MANUAL as the HF wireless is on the Non Essential bus and most of the time was the only way to squeal for help.

Apologies for the spelling etc. Airline Lounge and crappy busted A Billy Box!

[ptwaugh]

When a semi-rigid rotor is said to have 2.25 degrees of preconing, does this mean each blade above the level? Or does this mean total between the two blades?

Thanks

[Dave_Jackson]

Each blade.

Like the pre-cone angle, the coning angle and the flapping angle are for each blade also.

The top of the page (http://www.unicopter.com/0735.html) shows the pre-cone angle of some small helicopters, if you are interested.

[SEL]

Hi

Like Dave said, it is for each blade. Imagine a horizontal line, through the rotor hub, through it's centre. The pre-cone angle is measured from this plane. In most types it is a few degrees above it, like the examples on Dave's page.

[ptwaugh]

Hi all.

Many of you have helped me in the past on this project, and while I've been gone for awhile, I'm back, and as I near completion I wanted to share a picture of the Flight Sim 2004 helicopter I am completing.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/top_view.jpg

In the coming weeks as I finish the interior and begin modeling the aircraft systems in earnest I may have a question or two for you.

[misunderstood]

Is this just a repaint or a whole new design with reworked flight model, etc?

[ptwaugh]

It's a completely new model designed from the ground up, with all new flight dynamics. It flys like a dream, and auto's even better with better blade moments to hold more inertia and allow more realistic autos.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/10July04.jpg

For more info fly by http://www.hovercontrol.com

[Hilico]

Have you managed to model the engine start realistically? Sadly missing in the models I've tried so far.

[ptwaugh]

Yes, the engine start is authentic, and you better know how to start the real thing if you want to start this bird, as almost everything on the flight deck (including breakers) work. This includes fixing the collective start button.

Already I have all the announciators programed and working, including the test switch.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/11July04.jpg

Stick

[ptwaugh]

Note the bubbled windows, antennas, pitot tube, and navigation lights and housings.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/15July04b.jpg

[belly tank]

Thats Awesome!

Maybe when you get time you could develop a cargo hook and a Bambi bucket that works!! so we can have a play when were not doing the real thing!!

now theres an idea!!....

[ptwaugh]

I'd be happy to add these items and any others suggested by rotorheads.

Just need pictures of what you want (from different angles and detailed enough to allow me to model them).

Right now, I'm want to model the B206B3's landing light and battery compartment (inside as well), and need pics of this if anyone has any close ups. If the light moves from being stowed, to extended, send me pics of that too if you have them. Little details like how far it yaws are appreciated too.

Any such requests, pics, or data can be emailed to me at [email protected].

Thanks

[ptwaugh]

Here are some of the latest pics. If you know of anyone commercially interested in this helicopter model have them email me.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/18July04.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/18July04b.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/18July04c.jpg

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/18July04d.jpg

[ptwaugh]

What is N1 topping induced rotor droop?

Basically, I do not know what "toppint" or "rotor droop" are... I got induced down :O

Thanks

[NickLappos]

ptwaugh,

Turbines have limiters, because otherwise they'd just run faster and faster until something comes apart, or force the pilot to beady-eye the gage almost full time. The simplest limiter is the N1 (or Ng) limiter that is basically a fly-weight governor that stops the N1 from going above its max speed. This looks to the pilot as if the N1 just freezes, and the power (temperature and torque) gets stuck there. If he keeps raising collective, the rotor starts to droop (reduce in rpm as collective is pulled) and the situation can get very serious. If the rpm droops too far, tail rotor control can be lost, the aircraft will start spinning and someone will run from the bushes and call it "LTE" which it is not.

We call the act of reaching the limiter "topping" and on older models, this topping is actually set by the maintenance pilot during the test flight when an engine or control are changed.
On newer models, the electronic governor or fuel control has sophisticated limiters that stop at temperature, torque or N1, depending on which is achieved first.

[ptwaugh]

Thanks for the clear explanation.

[GLSNightPilot]

I've had the pleasure (??) of doing many N1 topping checks on B412s over the years. One of the cherished perquisites of a night pilot is the privilege of doing maintenance test flights at 3 or 4AM after the mechs have finished doing inspections. For an N1 topping check, the mechanic fiddles with a thingy in the back, and then you go up in the dark and pull the collective up into your armpit and while staying right-side up and out of clouds, note when the rotor RPM droops. It's supposed to droop at 100% torque, plus or minus, and you are allowed to pull more than 100% briefly to check it. Then the mechanic resets the thingy, and that sets where the N1 topping occurs, and assures you that you can pull at least 100% torque before that happens. This is more fun than any old fart like me deserves, especially when the weather is less than clear black and 22, and the #(*&$^(# thing won't droop and you have to make several flights to get it in limits. We don't get to do that in the S76. :ok:

[Shawn Coyle]

It's a variation on the theme that power = torque times rotor RPM. With the N1 at a limit, the power is constant, and if you pull more blade pitch and increase the torque, the only thing that can happen is that the rotor RPM will decrease - in a nice linear fashion.

[CyclicRick]

I have the dubious pleasure of "topping" our 205's every now and again. Not very nice if you're scared of heights. I got up to a density altitude of 14.800ft last time before the N1 drooped with an IAS of 45kts and still at nearly max torque. The radar controller was'nt too impressed either (we are almost right between two or three airways) when he asked me what level I required and I replied "I don''t know yet"! , but he let me get on with it anyway..nice chap.

[gizmocat]

Rick, thanks for that, it had me in pleats :D :D It's certainly one for the humour thread on the ATCO forum. ;)

[NickLappos]

Shawn is absolutely right about how the torque behaves when you are drooping. Because you have frozen the power output, and it is fixed, as rpm reduces, torque goes up at exactly the same ratio (percent down in Nr means percent up in torque) so that no performance gain is had by the "extra" torque. In fact, the tail rotor has to counter the torque, so your pedal requirements are going up (more left pedal needed) and the tail rotor is losing thrust at the lower Nr so even more blade angle is needed (more left pedal yet). Bad stuff is happening.

[HOSS 1]

Was out flying yesterday, so I took a few snaps for you.

Here is a picture of normal operations. The rotor is governed at 107%, and the torque and N1 are well below limits. (N1=90.3, 46/48 torque)

http://www.gatm.com/jsleigh/no%20limiter.JPG

This next picture shows what happens if you just keep pulling the collective (in a S-76c+) and the ambient conditions are such that you'll hit the torque limiter first. You just keep pulling up on the collective, you'll "hit" the torque limiter, and the rotor starts drooping from its nominal 107%. The S-76 has a "soft limiter" that allows you to overshoot a bit, and slowly brings you back down to the hard limit (100% dual engine in this case).

http://www.gatm.com/jsleigh/q%20limiter.JPG

You'll notice I've taken the picture while we're in the soft overshoot.

I also took a picture of drooping the rotor against the N1 stop, but it's too big to add to the post, so click HERE (http://www.gatm.com/jsleigh/n1%20limiter.JPG) to see that. Hard to see, but if you look closely, the N1 is hard against the 2 min stop and the rotor is drooped down to about 100%.

Hopefully, the pictures help, or are a bit entertaining.

HOSS 1

[CyclicRick]

Your oil pressure is a bit high!

[Gomer Pylot]

The oil pressure naturally tends to rise as the engine runs faster, but you'll notice there is no red line up there, nor even a yellow area.

[NickLappos]

Hoss1,

I recognize that panel! Nice post, keep up the good work.

Nick

[offshoreigor]

HOSS 1

WOW! Thats the first Analog C+ I've seen!

:ooh: OffshoreIgor :ooh:

[HOSS 1]

WOW! Thats the first Analog C+ I've seen!


The reason is hidden in your post!!! There are a few other "round gaugers" around. But you're right. Most are glass.

HOSS-1

[offshoreigor]

HOSS 1

Sorry if I got your dander up. But I was being honest, I have never seen an analog C+!

Cheers, :eek: OffshoreIgor :eek:

[HOSS 1]

I think you misinterpeted my reply. No dander here :)

I was just, perhaps too obtusely, indicating that she's an oldie. The aircraft was the prototype C+. It's a real workhorse and has an interesting past.

It's currently flying in France with Arriel 2S2 engines.


Blue Skies!

HOSS-1

[ptwaugh]

Since I don't have the real thing, I have to make due with this:

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/tower.jpg

Thanks to all those that have contributed info.

[ptwaugh]

Thought you guys might like to see the video I made.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/downloads/ (Download)

If I've exceed my bandwidth, come back later.

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/B206/Interstate_Auto.jpg

[gadgetguru]

not familiar with the history on this, (so if i am asking the obvious i apoligise) did you build the fsim from scratch?
or is it inside an existing off the shelf product?

i have had little success in finding a decent helo sim that i could use for training purposes, xplane was the best R22 that i have found, but then i haven't really had much time to exert into looking for anything else.

what little 'spare' time i do have goes into study or flying.

i have briefly entertained the idea of building several 'simulators' but the work involved in such a project is simply beyond my means in terms of time commitment, etc.

[ptwaugh]

The photo you see above and video was "shot" inside Microsoft Flight Sim 2004 (FS9).

This B206 is my original work, developed completely from scratch to replace the default Bell 206 that comes with the program.

My ship is being developed with complex custom software to simulate ship systems and gauges accurately, providing parts task training capabilities within certain limits of the sim. An Austraian company has recently won approval (FAA?) to use MSFS as a parts task trainer (1st in the world I understand), using their software, and I aim for a similar level of realism.

Everything in the front office will function, and interact in as real a way as I can achieve given my limited knowledge.

Best of all, she's fun to fly and auto!

[ptwaugh]

As many of you know, I'm modeling a B206B3 Low skid for MS Flight Sim.

I am in the process of completing the art work for the panel instruments for my B206B3. I already have guides for the following:

Eng Oil/Temp Torque Airspeed
XMSN Oil/Temp TOT Dual Tach
Fuel Loadmeter Ng

which come standard from Bell Helicopter, and our found in the manual.

I need to mode the following gauges:

Clock
Fuel Quantity
Altimeter
Radar Altimeter
Vertical Velocity Indicator
Turn & Slip Indicator
VOR
ADF
Horizontal Situation Indicator
Artifical Horizon

and need to find specific manufacturers/gauges to model.

If any of you could point me to a manufacturer and model I would appreciate it.

Thanks.

[ptwaugh]

Hi,

As the 3rd step in the "pre-flight" check in the B206, the pilot ensures that the LDG LT is off. The bus is 28 volts (once the battery switch is on), and I'm wondering three things.

1) If the landing light was left in the on position inadvertantly, thus causing significant drain on the battery (assuming a battery and not a GPU start), when he/she later switches the battery on, and fires up the bus, what would the bus voltage be?

2) As there is no ammeter or volt-meter, how does a pilot catch this?

3) If it was not caught, and the pilot attepted to engage the starter (assuming fully charged battery in good condition) would the start function?

[Gomer Pylot]

The bus voltage will be battery voltage, whatever that is, prior to start. Assuming a good battery, the start will be close to normal. The starter pulls a *lot* more amperage than the landing light. With a marginal battery, having the landing light on could be the difference between a successful start and an abort, but I've seen people do starts with the landing light on many times. I might have even done it myself once, long long ago. :suspect:

[sprocket]

Further to Gomers reply,

Most pilots who have flown 206s very quickly come to regonise a low battery.

pt: Your bus voltage will be 28 volts only if there is an external power source connected, or about 27.5v when the eng and generator are running.

The battery voltage should be about 24 volts when the engine/generator is not running.

2) As there is no ammeter or volt-meter, how does a pilot catch this?

3) If it was not caught, and the pilot attepted to engage the starter (assuming fully charged battery in good condition) would the start function?

If your battery has been drained a bit by leaving a landing light on then you may notice a slow acceleration in the n1 after you hit the start button.
The n1 may not reach an RPM that is satisfactory for a light off.
If you choose to continue the start a slow acceleration may occur and the dreaded hot start!

EDIT: Note the above symptoms may only be applicable to 206s fitted with lead/acid batteries.

[Head Turner]

Within the pre flight checks the Landing Light is to be in the OFF position. However, if you've missed that and make a start with the Landing Light ON then there is most likely to be a slow increase in rpm and most significant will be that 12% will not be achieved and therefore you must abort the start. Recharge the battery and/or use a GPU and do another start

[ptwaugh]

Where is the audio emitted from in the cockpit? Is it coming from the overhead panel speaker, from behind the main panel, or from some other location?

Thanks,

Patrick

[John Eacott]

Depends upon the aircraft. If you're talking Bell 206, in the overhead, up above your left ear. Other types, other locations.

[ptwaugh]

Perfect, what I needed to know. I'm putting the sound in a sim, and have not yet gotten in the real thing.

Thanks.

[ptwaugh]

I am modeling a B206, and have already obtained a recording of the battery switched to on, and the resulting audiable warnings for low rotor and engine out.

Now, what I need is a sound recording of the N1 spin up when you engage the starter, including the light at 12-15% N1, and optionally, the throttle up to 100% RRPM.

It would also be great if I had a similar recording from the exterior of the ship too, if possible.

This will allow me to get the sound just right.

I'm noting all the contributors to my project so you will get sent the completed project too!

Just in case my email isn't available, it's <[email protected]>.

Thanks.

[trackdirect]

PT,

Try www.sounddogs.com
they have quite a few helicopter sound effects incl 206.

[ptwaugh]

Awesome find!

Thanks.

[Ascend Charlie]

Can you cc the sound file to Hollywood please?

Those drongos over there have only one sound file, a Huey, and it gets used in every film for 2 blades, 3, 4 blades, ducted fans, notars, the whole shebang. Even the R22 in that James Bond film had a turbine engine.:*

[rotornut]

But don't forget Blue Thunder where the 206 sounds like a 206 - right through the whole start sequence.

[HOSS 1]

A real good turbine start, which just happens to be an allison, is from Mark Nye's turbine boat.

It's at http://www.gas-turbines.com/images/allison/t63_start%20-%20low_idle.wav

Makes a good windows start-up wav file choice!

HOSS 1

[ptwaugh]

Yeah, holleywood sound effects leave a bit to be desired at times. :O

Since I'm trying to impress real pilots, and Bell Helicopter, I'm having to be a bit more exacting.

Thanks for the help.

[ptwaugh]

Ok,

You're in a B206B3, and you are doing pre-flight. You throw the BAT ON, and hear:

a) The LOW ROTOR audio warning
b) The ENG OUT audio warning
c) Both of the above
d) None of the above, you are now deaf.

If you hear only one of the above tones, what must you do to get the other?

Thanks.

[chuteless]

As far a I can remember you should hear eng-out audio
to hear low RRPM you need to raise the collective
if I'm wrong someone will be quick to correct
iof coursef you hear neither then put off your medical for as long as possible or check the CB in the overhead panel

Stay happy
Chuteless

[sprocket]

Be aware also, there was a Tech bulletin out long ago that allowed the engine out audio to be disabled thus only retaining the light. It was an option only, but there may be some operating without the audio.

[ptwaugh]

Yeah, I suppose silence is a kind of obvious audio indicator that your engine is out. :O

[PPRUNE FAN#1]

PT Waugh:Yeah, I suppose silence is a kind of obvious audio indicator that your engine is out.Not necessarily. Turbines are different than recips. In a 206, that god-awful transmission whine dominates, and if the engine doesn't blow-up outright, it can spool down quite discretely, believe it or not. Hence, the beep-beep-beep horn to let you know that the N1 is below the normal idle rpm range.

Quick story: Back when I first started flying turbines and was young, dumb and full of...self-confidence, I wondered just what the indications of a "soft" engine failure would be if I were not paying particularly close attention at the time (like that *never* happens to any of us, eh?). Just for, um, grins, I was in cruise flight one day (no pax) when I decided to experiment. Playing the role of "typical dumb pilot" (a role I've unintentionally played many times since) I looked out the right window, I rolled the throttle to idle and waited. From my perspective, nothing happened. ...Until the low-rotor horn started blaring. Then, when I turned around and looked at the tach...well, you don't want to know where the needle was, but let's just say my heart took up temporary residence in my throat. Cruise flight with low-rotor is *not* a good place to be in a helo with a teetering, underslung rotor. I did not completely grasp the significance of that then. I do now.

So I'm glad that all the subsequent 206's I've flown had the engine-out horn connected and working. I'll take every bit of help I can get, thankavrymch.

[Ascend Charlie]

You will probably hear neither, because most operators pull the Caution Lites circuit breaker on shutdown.

To hear them all:
Battery on
Caution C/B in (bipbipbipbip and engine out light and RPM light)
Raise collective (beeeeeeeeeeeeeep)
Lower lever, pull C/B to conserve sanity. Turn off battery to conserve battery.

Make sure you always have the anti-collision light turned on, so that if you accidentally leave the battery on, the flashing light should be a reminder.

[belly tank]

In later model 206B3's you have an audio mute button on the dash above the ASI and attitude indicators

When i start my preflight i turn the master bat on, Caution CB in you should hear the eng out tone and then i hit the mute button, this will still illuminate the panel with the usual eng out, and pressure lights illuminated, by hitting the mute you can carry out checking the fuel and fuel filter bypass light illuminate without putting up with the tone.

Similarily on shut down. i do the procedure but leave the caution in and ,mute after ive carried out the shut down proc

[ptwaugh]

Interesting story. Makes sense since the XMSN is so much closer.

Reminds me of my brother practicing emergency eng out landings with some spare time/fuel after a cross-country.

He setup for a nice approach in a C172 into a man-made dry river, in Texas. At about 50 ft AGL, he suddenly became uncomfortable with his lack of view over the canopy and his nose-high attitude (probably in reverse command).

Sensibly he decided to terminate the approach, but in his "hurry", he neglected to add power first, and instead retracted the first notch of flaps, thus dumping his lift.

He ended up upside down in the field, but thankfully without injury (if you don't count the C172).

He now flys Harriers (quiet carefullly) for the Marine Corps.

[the coyote]

If the engine out audio has been disabled, it will (or should!) have a placard on the panel saying so. Check the Caution CB is in. No placard and no audio, possible problemo.

[ptwaugh]

Ok, despite how these are labeled, after reading some posts, I'm concerned that I might have them backwards.

Take a look at these:

http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/downloads/Warning.LowRotor.mpg (Low Rotor Warning Video)
http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/downloads/Warning.Eng.Out.mpg (Engine Out Warning Video)

and tell me if they are correctly labeled.

Is one really both sounds? I had heard that the Engine Out sound is a long beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep, so that video appears to be both at the same time.

If so, I need to find a recording of just the Engine Out noise.

Thanks.

[407 Driver]

Your quick-links don't work, so I cut and pasted the URL's and my opinion is:

Sound #1 is Engine out only (http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/downloads/Warning.LowRotor.mpg )
Sound #2 is both engine out and low rotor RPM (http://webpages.charter.net/pwaugh/downloads/Warning.Eng.Out.mpg )

[ghost02]

I did some net cruising and found the explanation. That switch is the essential bus control switch, albeit poorly labeled. The TH-57 only has a generator and a battery, so electric power is minimal, and the battery will only last a short while after generator failure. The system dumps most loads automatically if the gen fails, including the fuel boost pumps and some lighting (I think). For safety, the pilot selects the "recover" position while flying in darkness to override the load sheding. See:

On the TH-57C, the normal/recover switch connects the essential bus(??) to the battery bus (in the recover position) in the event of a generator failure. The reason you want the switch in the recover postion at night is the searchlight is on the essential bus. If you lose the engine, both the main gen and standby gen will no longer produce power and you will want the battery to power the searchlight so you can (hopefully) see your landing sight.

The fuel boost pump on the Th-57 is not really needed. It prevents fuel from vaporizing in the fuel lines above ~6000'. The engine can be started with the fuel pump CB pulled (try it sometime).

My memory is a little hazy, so I might have the name of the busses wrong, but that is the general jist of it. Also the TH-57C has four sources power, the generator, standby generator, battery, and standby battery (powers pilot's AI when everything else is gone).

ghost

[ptwaugh]

Ok,

Assuming a B206B3, with a functioning audio Eng Out warning, a functioning mute button, and a cold & dark cockpit.

You get in, and begin your pre-flight. Your collection has been returned to the full down position and you flip the battery switch.

I've been told you will hear both Eng Out and Low Rotor, and I've been told you will only hear Eng Out till you pull collective. (If so, does the anunciator stay light?).

I'm guessing that if the collective is down, you hear only Eng Out.

1) Which is it?
2) If the audio warning only comes on only when you pull collective, how much do you have to pull?

Thanks,

Patrick

[Hilico]

Can I just have a minor diversion here and ask why MS Flight Sim doesn't have realistic heli start-up sounds? What it does have is even more effeminate than that ladylike 'poot' Nick described in his round engine post.

[Simon853]

Hilico,
I downloaded an AS350 from avsim.com the other night and it's a much better looking and sounding model than the 206 that comes as standard. Has better avionics and start-up procedures modelled too, and includes the turbine start-up sound. (As just a humble wannabe at this stage, that sound gives me goose-bumps!)

Si

[MonarchA330]

Hi all,

DISCLAIMER
Have searched all the other topics and none gave the answer I'm looking for so please don't shout at me!

Ok... my brother wants an accurate helicopter sim for his PC so he can fly VFR and generally get the idea of how the things fly/handle etc.

Other threads suggested MS flight sim for IFR flying.... is this still the best option for solely VFR flights?

Thanks very much

M330

[TiPwEiGhT]

I have flight sim and think it's ok, does the job i guess. Hear x-plane or something is good, never played it though. You can get some good downloads for flight sim.

TiP

[Aser]

"accurate" it isn't the best definition for ms flight sim but you can't beat the VFR scenerys and loads of freeware/payware (good ones) aircrafts and fun you can have with it. :}

just take a look in www.hovercontrol.com
www.flightsim.com
www.avsim.com
www.fsplanet.com
etc.

Regards
Aser

[OlliBlue]

Check out :


http://www.dodosim.com/

Great B206 simulation for MSFS 2004.

I spend hours every day flying with sim, PM me if you need more info.


Regards,

Oliver

[Simon853]

Microsoft Flightsim 2004, plus VF Terrain and Photographic Scenery is a good start for realistic VFR flight. (You can't seriously nav using the standard scenery for visual reference.)

Unfortunately the standard helicopters can't really be described as accurate, but there's a way of improving anti-torque on the R22 which improves it dramatically, and as the previous guy said, Dodosim's B206 is amazing. (They've a new improved version out in the next few weeks, with improved ETL and anti-torque characteristics.)

What's equally important though is a good control set up with rudder pedals and a separate throttle you can use as the collective. If you want to go all out and sell a kidney, you could afford the www.simcontrol.co.uk helicopter setup, buy a projector and seriously improve the experience. (You can display just the control panel in front of you on a standard monitor, and put the window view up on the projector using a dual-video card.)

Si

[Cron]

I have a set up with Pedals, Collective, Cyclic. I use X-plane v8 and FS 2004. (You need the stuff that simon mentions for FS)

The collective is just a standard throttle quad mounted down on the left hand side of a standard office chair. I've attached 'lever like' rod to the throttle lever and reversed the throttle operation in the sim settings. This puts you hands and feet in approximately the right places, and lifting the lever lifts the Heli.

Flight model for 22 in MS FS leaves a lot to be desired - may be fixed in FS 2006.

Flight model for 22 in X-plane is very realistic but the photo scenery is not as good as MS FS. The latest R22 (from Brett Sumpter) - download it from the net - has many working controls enabling the check list to be worked through (mostly)

On balance X-plane with 19 inch screen wins.

Contact RC Simulations (no connection) for all the help you need - they are excellent.

[jote]

I concur with those that promote the better flight model of X-plane but rather lower standard of scenery. There is also an issue of support and lack of documentation with x-plane so I would advise caution when purchasing x-plane, they have an excellent support forum however where you can get most problems sorted.

Personally I use X-plane with the copycat controls for pedals and cyclic with a Flight-Link collective.

So far I have not been able to use the dodosim product as it is currently crashing my system during engine start! – oooops maybe it’s me hot starting……

If your in the Birmingham area come and have a go.

[Simon853]

Since I got a couple of PMs asking me to elucidate, here's the solution for making the FS2004 R22's anti-torque more realistic:

In the aircraft.cfg file in the Aircraft\Robinson_R22 directory, look for the [Helicopter] section.

Set torque_scalar from 1.0 up to something like 8.0.
(You'll see you can also adjust the rotor brake efficiency in the same section, which is useful also!)

The only drawback to the torque scalar mod is that the effect doesn't diminish as you develop forward speed, so the same amount of pedal is required at 80 kts as in the hover. It makes low speed manouevering a lot more realistic though!

Note that the R22 and the B206 use different flight model engines, and even though you'll find the torque_scalar setting in the 206 aircraft.cfg, adjusting it has no impact on the 206 or any turbine heli derived from it.

Jordan Moore has an excellent S300 on hovercontrol.com (you want the v2 version, 14 aircraft configs). I made the same change to that and it works great. You can also set correlator_available to 0, then if you switch the govenor off in the cockpit (because his S300 is based on the default R22) you can fly it on the throttle without it trying to override you all the time.

Si