New FAA to JAA conversion rules?

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

On an American website there has recently been a suggestion that the FAA CPL and ATP to JAA FATPL/ATPL conversion rules are to be relaxed later this year. Does anyone have any idea what is under consideration?

[RVR800]

The JAA is being replaced by a new organisation

The European parliament have realised they are signed up members of the Chicago Convention.

They want to reduce administative burden (oxymoron)

Watch this space...........

[BillieBob]

The JAA is being replaced by a new organisation Not exactly. The European Aviation Safety Agency represents another level of bureaucracy in addition to the JAA. It is to be hoped that it will adopt JARs as its standards or we shall all have to go through another disastrous changeover to a wholly new set of requirements. EASA cannot replace the JAA since there are a number of JAA member states that are not members of the EU. Whatever agreement is reached between the JAA and FAA will have no validity and will have to be renegotiated with EASA when it takes responsibility for licensing. Given the rumour that the French delegate to the latest JAA/FAA meeting was arrested on arrival in PHI and sent home on the next flight, agreement between a French dominated EASA and the FAA is not going to be easy!

EASA has recently published a consultative paper and proposed 'Essential Requirements for Pilot Proficiency', which, if nothing else, prove that the people responsible for implementing EU licensing rules do not have the first idea of what pilot licensing is all about.

Oh, and the EU, not (yet) being a Sovereign State, is not a signatory to the Chicago Convention.

[fly2fly]

The conversion process between JAA & FAA should be released for the end of the year.

The procedure draft is available
HERE (http://www.ifrance.fr/bbchat/images/CONVERSION.pdf)

[eaglejet]

fly your link doesn't work....

[paramac146]

The link works just fine and I went straight to it. You will need a PDF reader such as Acrobat Reader .
OK this is all very interesting and will probably come into force just as I finish all the JAA exams

[trainer too 2]

That opens the road to more US training!

[Mascalzone78]

I do not understand if once I will get an FAA type rating it will be valid in EU.
This will change the world of European aviation if is true

[eaglejet]

Somebody can send me the pdf file in PM, still can't manage to open the link

Thanks a lot

[paramac146]

Eagljet
The proposal is to grant the holders of an FAA ATP who have 1500hrs on Multi-Pilot aircraft, since the issue of the said FAA ATP,a JAA Licence.

You will have to sit one exam of 85 questions covering a range of subjects and the exam duration will be two hrs.

I have contacted the CAA regarding this and am waiting for the reply. Until they tell me otherwise in writing I am going to continue with the JAA exams...only 5 to go....

[The Hedge]

"paramac146"

Keep us posted when you get a reply.

"Billie Bob",

What are your thoughts on this draft.

[BritishGuy]

It's not the hours requirement thats the hard bit 500hrs?? what only 250 more than before. Thats easily done. The exams (i mean 14 of them - red tape/protectionism blah, blah, blah) thats what needs to be reduced. And as soon as thats done then hey, all the more better (and happier)......Another 250hrs ontop of the 250hrs needed for an FAA commercial will probably cost you less then all the CAA bull$hit you need to pay for right now.

[Martin1234]

The point is that the possibility to convert shouldn't compete with JAR schools which is one of the reasons why they have those hour requirements. You will probably be able to convert as before but note that the new conversion proposal states type rating skill test (in accordance with 1.240) instead of a practical test as of today.

Note that you still need to do the JAR groundschool for an IR and if you want ATPL theoretical knowledge and don't have an FAA ATP with 1500 multi pilot hours... you still need to do the 14 exams! At least that's my interpretation..

[BillieBob]

What are your thoughts on this draft. The proposed conditions for conversion of FAA licences and ratings will clearly mean different things to different people, according to their individual qualification and experience and their future intentions. Assuming that we are talking about someone who intends to convert a FAA CPL(A) with the intention of proceeding, eventually, to a JAA ATPL(A) by way of the right hand seat of a multi-pilot aeroplane. In this case, I can't see that the proposal will make a great deal of difference.

----------
The current requirements for the holder of a FAA CPL(A) to be issued with a JAA CPL(A) by the UK CAA are:

Hold a JAA Class 1 medical certificate
Undergo theoretical knowledge training at the discretion of a Head of Training and pass the JAA theoretical knowledge examinations at CPL(A) level.
Undertake flying training at the discretion of a Head of Training and pass the CPL Skill Test.
Qualify for the issue of a FRTOL

Further, if a multi-pilot type rating is required:

Hold a valid JAA IR(A)
Complete MCC training
Complete the full 650 hours theoretical knowledge training and pass all 14 ATPL(A) examinations

----------
The proposed requirements will be:

Hold a JAA Class 1 medical certificate
Undergo (undefined) training and pass the four composite examination papers
Pass the CPL Skill Test
Qualify for the issue of a FRTOL

Further, if a multi-pilot type rating is required:

Hold a valid JAA IR(A)
Complete MCC training
Complete the full 650 hours theoretical knowledge training and pass all 14 ATPL(A) examinations
----------
The only advantage that I can see to the proposal is that there is no minimum training requirement laid down prior to taking the theoretical knowledge examination and Skill test. On the other hand, a minimum of 500hrs PIC as the holder of a FAA CPL(A) will be required to qualify for conversion. In both cases the full ATPL(A) theoretical knowledge examinations will have to be passed prior to training for a MPA type rating.

[redsnail]

I agree with Billie Bob on this one. For a laugh, download the pdf from the JAA (http://www.jaa.nl/section1/jarsec1.html)site. You want JAR-FCL 1.
Relevant pages, page 84 (JAR-FCL 1.250 (4)) and page 123. (JAR-FCL 1.285)
It would seem if you have 1500 hours in MPA's then the conversion is a bit easier. Need only do 1 composite exam but I am not sure how the UK CAA will apply the JAR MPA compliance when sitting the LST.

(I don't work for the UK CAA, I just wade through PDF's) :ugh:

[divorcingjack]

Hi there,

Does anyone know if his new proposal will apply to ICAO conversions as well ? I am just about to embark on a canadian CPL/IR and was hoping to convert next year - is this going to affect my plans ?

Sorry for my ignorance, but I am a little concerned !

Thanks, dj

[Speedbird744]

The problem is the 250hours that you must have prior to gaining an FAA CPL isn't 250hours PIC. You might end up with say 120 hours PIC in total, so thats another 380 to build!
And the definition of PIC in the USA is different to here.

God please someone tell me none of this is going to happen!

[Charley]

For those who are doing their flight training with a view to obtaining a JAA frozen ATPL by converting an FAA CPL, the PIC requirements are far too onerous to be dismissed as lightly as has been suggested.

It is, as has been said, 500 hrs of P1 post CPL issue. So, any previous P1 hours are not applicable. Period. End of chat.

This means, at the very least, 500 hrs of hour building. That's a lot of hour-building! 500 hours spent burning holes in the sky (and wallet) in a C152 is a lot of time to develop dodgy habits and get mind-numbingly bored.

In reality it will probably mean that people wanting to go down the FAA-to-JAA conversion route will probably have to be FI's for some length of time. And FAA FI's at that. I suspect that this is why the 'post-CPL' comment is in there, the JAA want you to have 500 hours of 'CPL-type' experience.

I'd be interested to know whether this is going to replace the existing arrangements or act in parallel with them. For example, get the 500hrs PIC if you want to sit the reduced JAR exams OR sit all the JAA ATPL's if you want to convert sooner. Sadly, I suspect the former is the case. This could leave a few of us in the poop, especially those who have already committed to doing their FAA ratings.

This needs watching with interest. As somebody else said, this smacks to me of JAA protectionism again to some extent. Meh, perhaps I'm being unfair, but some of us remember a few years ago when they tried to stop any JAA training occuring outside of JAA member states... :hmm:

[captwawa]

what about the Conversion From Australian ATPL to JAR ATPL

Any links for that one ??

[BillieBob]

divorcingjack/captwawa - These proposals (and they are still only proposals) are the result of discussions between the JAA and FAA and relate only to conversion of an FAA licence. The JAA are not in discussion with any other national aviation authority concerning conversion criteria.

Charley - You may notice that the UK is the only JAA state that approves FTOs outside the JAA. This is solely because UK national law does not allow the CAA to refuse such approvals. However, when EASA takes over responsibility for licensing in a couple of years, the majority of EU member states (which are vehemently opposed to 'overseas' training) will be able, should they choose, to impose their view with the force of EU law. The battle is not yet over.

[captwawa]

Thanks Billiebob

I did hear something that CASA in OZ are talking about doing the same type of stuff,, however they need a a flight test to their ATPL licence...

[Keygrip]

BB - not trying to start an argument here - just want an educated view on FTO's.

You may notice that the UK is the only JAA state that approves FTOs outside the JAA.
The Dutch have KLM training, the Belgians have Sabena training and the Germans have LuftHansa training in the United States - are these done differently (somehow)?

At least the Sabena school is JAA qualified - the certificates are on the office wall.

[BillieBob]

Keygrip - Fair point, I should have referred only to FTOs providing modular training, I was trying not to get lost in too much detail. The Lufthansa, Sabena and KLM operations are all satellites of FTOs approved in Germany, Belgium and the Netherlands, respectively. All are training only for "all or part of the integrated ATP course" as permitted by Appendix 1b to JAR-FCL 1.055. The vested interests of the airlines concerned will probably ensure that integrated training outside the JAA continues.

It is modular training by FTOs with their main place of business in the JAA that is not permitted by JAR-FCL, such as that provided by OAT, CCAT, Comed and AFT. Modular training by FTOs with their main place of business outside the JAA is permitted by JAR-FCL, with a number of provisos, although no state is obliged to approve non-JAA FTOs. The lack of enthusiasm shown by member states (other than the UK) to undertake approval of these organisations is notable. Mind you, the last I heard the UK had not processed any new applications from non-JAA FTOs for over two years, despite having received over 20. This may, or may not, have something to do with the impending impact of EASA.

I also hear that a number of US-based organisations got a particularly vicious savaging from the CAA in this year's inspection round, amid suspicion that there is a hidden agenda to cut back on 'overseas' approvals.

[run]

Are they also changing the rules for military pilots wanting a JAA Certificate?

I have a FAA ATPL and I am a European military pilot. What is the easiest route for me to get the JAA Certificates?
(Should I use my military backgound or my american ATPL)

[redbar1]

run,

JAR-FCL 1.020 (Credit for military service) will most probably not be changed in the near future, it was not part of NPA FCL 1-19.

cheers,
redbar1

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

What's the real scoop here. Is there a reduction in the amount of testing one needs to convert from FAA to JAA ATPL. I am in the middle of taking a distance course now and would like to know if I have to do all of this or not.
Thank You

LAWN DART

[Speedbird744]

Anyone have any interpretations of converting an FAA IR to the JAA in this document?

"To comply with JAR-FCL 1.016 concerning the skill test and training".

I have no links to JAR-FCL 1.016, but is this getting rid of the current 15 hr requirement?

Anyone know?

[BEagle]

The last I heard from the CAA was that they were not going to 'facilitate' any more out-of-EU JAR training - but they can't 'ban' it.

So, potential US trainers could probably apply for approval, but there's nothing to say that the UK CAA is obliged to process the application quickly, or cheaply. And the cost of the inspection will, no doubt, include costs involved by the assessor.....?? Club Class return from Gatwick to wherever, plus accommodation and subsistence on top of an hourly rate, perhaps?

The practices regarding safeguarding and marking of JAR PPL exam ppaers in some, though hopefully not all US schools is also known to the UK CAA.

Train in EU for a JAA licence
Train in the US for a FAA licence
Train in Oz for an Australian licence.

....and convert from one to another in an agreed manner.

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

ANY ADDITIONAL INFORMATION ON THE PROPOSAL FOR THE REDUCTION OF TESTING FAA TO JAA.

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

I heard that this change in the rules was to take place in '05 or '06. Anyone else hear the same.

[RVR800]

The JAA/CAA are continually altering the rules and seem to be unaware of the human consequences of their actions.

One thing is for sure .. At the end of the day they will try and avoid any negative consequences for their exam income stream.

Ludicrous costs for what are just a few MCQ tests...

Of course I realise that all this is essential because of our 'special' airspace in Europe that is so different than anywhere else... :rolleyes:

[v1r8]

Anything news? What's the latest?

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

I spoke to a woman at the CAA on WED last week about this. She confimed that it was in the works and that there would be a change for those who have the flight time. They told me to call back in 6 mo. for further developments. She said the changes could be in 6 mo. or 2 yrs, so they recomend that people still do the study for the 14 tests.

Good luck all

Lawn Dart

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Well it's been six months since I started this thread and it's still going, albeit slowly. I'm part way through my FAA instructor ratings now and am still worried about the EASA thing. I just get the feeling that someone out there is making a big role of red tape and it's going to be wrapped tightly and quickly around the aviation industry in the not too distant future. I'm hoping that the 14 ATPL exams that I passed will still be worth something. If not, I guess I'm going to have to sneak in with a quick conversion to JAA.

[DUAL RATED]

I keep thinking about converting my FAA ATPL(A) to a JAA, but get put off by the idea of all the exams!but under this new system its got me thinking again

I did the CAA CPL(H) exams 10years ago and the Heli atp was granted based on cpl exams then.

My FAA ATPL is typed with HS125 and GV and i have 6500 total with 2000 on the jets 4500helis

any one got any ideas as to what i may have to do under the new system to get JAA ATPL (A)

I looked at the proposal stuff and what the 85 questions are based on, it looks like you will still have to study all the subjects to cover the questions:{

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

Dual Rated, you are correct in your post. To pass the single test one will still have to have the knowledge of all of the subjects.

The positives that I can think of are only one test fee (provided you pass), and the fact that you should only have one sitting.

You will still need to take an observation ride on the HS-125 or GV.

I think people with your qualifications should just get the conversion, the CAA just wants your Money!

[lostconcern]

Why try and buck the system, it works, there are jobs in Europe, the pilots are very very well educated what more can a aviation industry ask for...

I have personally met many many 10 000 hr pilots who still have no real idea of how a IRS works, or why a HF radio frequency has to be changed with the time of day with sunspot activity....simple things...

I dont see too many people on these forums going to bat for you and supporting the pro easy conversion case.

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

Lostconcern, I hear what you're saying about bucking the system but who is an airline going to call; someone with 500 hrs who knows how to bulid a radio or someone who has 10,000 hrs of experience? It just seems silly that one needs to complete all of the tests to do what one has been doing for years.
Example: a pilot with an FAA ticket can fly an "N" registerd A/C in the UK, based in the UK but can't fly a "G" registered A/C. I don't get it, is there some incredible difference between the A/C? Do they fly differently because of the different letter?

LDD

[DUAL RATED]

LostConcern i think you missed the point, ive already sat the exams and been flying g reg stuff for 10years but on helis,so an abreviated paper for heli pilots crossing over would be better than starting all over again.

Most of the corperate world is Caymen, Bermudan Aruban N or mostly something other than JAA alot are for tax reasons for the owners.im not really interested in the airlines, so i keep kicking myself for thinking i need to convert. i know people that have both JAA and FAA and its the FAA ticket that gets used the most.

i am amazed that there are 10000hr guys flying out there like you say, not knowing what they are doing.how did they get the jobs in the first place? i would also blame the operator in that case for hiring them!

Im not looking for an easy solution to the conversion but one that makes more logical common sense.

PS
i did here one that if you had 1500pic on a type of more than 30 tonnes you could get a JAA licence issued, anyone heard that one?

the problem is it has to be on AOC work! which i cant understand. whats the difference betwwen one GV flying round the world and another that is on an AOC except that they maybe better at doing the extra paperwork involved

[Speedbird744]

Sorry to bring this thread back,


But if someone can correct me here:

Under these new proposals, a holder of an FAA CPL/IR with 500hrs PIC post licence issue can sit only 4 ATPL shortened exams to convert the CPL, but why on earth to convert the FAA IR to JAA IR must you sit all 14 exams ?! As stated in the document.

[DUAL RATED]

Ive heard that the other jaa states have put a stop to the FAA JAA uk thing at the moment, anyone got any up dates on this?

[Dog Driver]

Sorry guys, I am sure this has been beaten to death but opinion seems to keep clouding the actual information.

I just want to convert an FAA ATP to a JAA to try for an Asia job (family is there).

I have been left seat in 121 for years and thousands of hours and just was wondering if this is a conversion that can be done in the us. Is it required to attend school ? How many test ? Are study materials easy to get? Who do I talk to ?


The next part is just venting...
I see some are a little down on us in the US, sorry. We are a little less involved in red tape and more into moving airplanes. I guess it is because the flying is cheep enough (lucky for you and me) that we can use the plane instead of the pen. Both work very well but… I would rather be with a guy that has 10,000 hours in a plane than 10,000 hours in class. I can say that I learned far more spinning a spanner that thumping a book (done both). Engineers are the last person you want fixing something (I am one but prefer to admit my dirty mechanic hands). I know what an IRS is and I can even point one out in the E&E bay. Bet the average engineer can't. Either way, I am not allowed to replace one as the PIC. If it fails, there is not much I can do inflight to fix it. There is a point where a pilot is too smart for his own good. So many 'know-it-alls' get involved in the problem and forget to fly the plane. We must know how things work but how many rivets in a gear door is anal. We need and MUST have people with both backgrounds and to say that one is better than the other is ludicrous. Sorry, it just yanks my chain when someone thinks real world experience has no value.

[youngskywalker]

Well said the above!

The Brit's (for which I am a proud one) seem to think that they re-invented the wheel when it comes to flying. Almost every day in the UK if somebody asks what licence I have, and I tell them FAA CPL Multi, it usually gets the raised eyebrows. Clearly they are thinking that I am not worthy and very dangerous! My usual reply to them is.......well they designed the Boeing, they built it, test flew it, perfected it and every day a U.S Captain safely navigates his way into Heathrow without killing too many people!

Sorry, I digress from the point of this topic! :\

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

DOG DRIVER, most airlines in Asia just require an ICAO lic. so you shouldn't have to go through the pain like the rest of us.

Good luck,

LDD

[Darren999]

Lawn dart,

I might have missed the point, but you can fly a G reg aircraft on a FAA licence. You can also go to France, at night, in a G reg aircraft if you want to. You are not restricted to N reg only....

Darren

[Dog Driver]

Dart Driver

Thanks but I am finding out that Japan is the exception. Just my luck.
Just the same, Kaptain M and others have educated me away from the idea.

ps. LawnDart, that was our nickname for the Lear. Your history?

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

I know JAL was hiring a few months ago, and they were looking for 747 fo's based out of the 50th state and in japan. I belive that all you needed was an ICAO lic. but check them out.

My backround is mostly 121 airline flying, SF-340, EMB-145, MD-80 soon to be 757/767. Trying to get out of commuting across the pond.

The Lawn Dart comes from the EMB-145, or the jungle jet, junk jet.
I'm sure there are more names that others can think of.

Take care,

LDD

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

DARREN999, are you saying that one can fly a "G" reg A/C for the airlines with an FAA cert.?
Please expand on your post.

Thanks,

LDD

[RVR800]

New rules will always aim to ensure that entrenched vested interest is locked-in

The MPL is upsetting the applecart however as the airlines of Europe will want to have the same training routes available to them as the rest of the world. MPL goes live 2007.

PPL then straight to RHS of a airline sim. This will training reduce costs. No more flying round and round an NDB in a light aircraft at £6.00 per minute....

[youngskywalker]

The way I understand the rules is that with an FAA certificate you can fly any 'G' reg aircraft privately, in UK airspace only. Not much good if you want to fly for the airlines though.

Maybe I'm wrong with that however.

YS

[scientifics]

I would be very interested to see how this all pans out. As I would like to go to the US towards the back end of 2005 to start my training. I hoped to do an FAA PPL, FAA ME, FAA IR and then FAA CPL then convert to JAA back in the UK and undertake the ATPL stuff in the UK. I wont be able to do this now will I? Oh its all confusing!!!!

[Darren999]

Lawn Dart.- I was mentioning what youngskywalker said. You can fly privately a G reg A/C but unfortunatly not commercial, Which is a real shame. I too have all FAA qualifications, and would like to come back here to fly choppers, but all those exmas are daunting. I have recieved module 1 from BGS and nearly died, I was never the cleaverest, and that scared me to death!! I'm going to start with it soon, after I finsh being sick... I only want to fly helicopters in England, I don't see why I should need to know how to plan a flight across the Atlantic.

Merry Christmas all!!
DarrenLawn Dart

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

Darren999, I also have the BGS #1 and can't get myself to sit down for the next 6 mo. to a year to do the exams.

Maybe you know the answer to this rumour. I flew with a guy last week who said that airlines would hire you with FAA ATP, provided that you converted within one year. I told him that I had not heard of this but would check it out.
Someday when I have a few hours to spend on hold long distance, I will call the CAA and ask them.

Hey Darren, someday you might take a RB-44 over the top so study that polar stuff hard.

Have a good holidy all.

LDD;)

[Darren999]

Lawn dart,

I must admit I haven't hear that rumour about the FAA ATPL, I do find it hard to believe they would let you convert over like that. Good idea if that's the case! That would give you at least the incentive to study.
Something tells me I won't be taking a RB- 44 over the ice cap, one is, I can't stand the cold, two, never flown one! I am lucky to fly a Bell 47 as an instructor in PA, that's fine with me at the mo. Also just started doing a bit on the 206, now that's fun!
Good luck when you do sit down to study for those exams, I hope to start some time soon. I have a friend who said he can help me long, which would be nice.
Happy New year

Darren

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

Darren, it looks like I will be working close to your area soon. where in PA are you? As soon as I finish 757/767 training I will sit down and study for exams during my 7 hr commute home to LGW.
Who knows maybe they (JAA/CAA) will change their rules for converting.
I'm not holding my breath though.
New years resolution: STUDY FOR EXAMS! :D


LDD

[Darren999]

LDD,

Good Luck with your training!, I'm sure you will be fine. Once you start on the exams you will get into the swing of things. I'm sure they will be less daunting than we imagine. I may give them a start in the next month or two. I'm based at the Lancaster Airport in PA, it's about 70 miles west of Philly. If your that way give me a heads up, I'll give you a lesson in a Bell 47, if you fancy it.
Anyway take care, good luck with the 737 stuff....

Darren

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

I love to get a chance to fly in a chopper. I have never been in one in all of my aviation career.
What is the going rate these days?

you're right, I think when we get into studing we shouldn't have a problem.

Are there many chopper jobs in europe or in the UK.

Let me know how it goes.

LDD

[Darren999]

LDD,

Not a problem with the ride, I'm sure you will enjoy it. More hands on then what you are used to. Please let me know when your in my neck of the woods. The going rate for the bell 47 is $254 per hr dual, $224 solo hire, I think we are very competative.
Jobs in Europe are very few and far between, I think it's not what you know but who, if you see what I mean... ;)
There are far more oppotunities in the US, larger market. The company I work for has a web site if you want to have a look it's www.dutchcountryhelo.com.

Anyway get your head in those books, how's the sim bits going?

Darren

[LAWN DART DRIVER]

Darren, I just flew into LGW yesterday from Houston to see my in-laws. There wasn't enough room on the car for allsix of us so I opted to meet them by train. Well the train wasn't for another hour so I took the bus over to the CAA to get an offical answer on the convertion change.
The word from the guy I talked to was that he had never herd anything like a short test for the more advanced pilot.
I said that's funny a woman I talked to a month ago said that the change could be in 6 months or 2 years from now.
Again he said " I have not herd of this". He was trying to get me out of there because there was 2 guys in uniform waiting for their lic. Anyway it was good to at least check on the status.

The thing is that even if they change the rules we will still need to pass all of the subjects so I might as well study for them (tests) as they are.

I don't start 757/767 ground school until March, but after that's done I will be based in Newark. I think the training is about 5 - 6 weeks with IOE. After this maybe I will take you up on your offer.
Sounds a lot better than sitting in a crashpad all day.

See Ya,

LDD

[Darren999]

LDD,
Sorry for not getting back to you sooner, had a little to catch up on here. When you get to Newark, get in touch, would be good to meet up. Good luck with the training, I have had a look at Dragon they seem to be able to do CPL(H), might give them a call.

Regards

Darren