Censorship - Please stop Airline Security SOP's being posted on this site.

[flybythread]

Danny

I have just got back to Europe, overflown NY and spent what I can only describe as a distraught week with our crew in the states.

Danny, I fully believe in free speach and ultimatley in the next few weeks many of our serviceman may be asked to put their lives on the line to protect just that principle.

I find however, open and public discussion of current SOP's and current security measures by Airline Professionals on this site to be utterly irresponsible and dangerous, especially when the Airline is named.

Without wishing to sound pious this should be stopped now. I can not imagine this is easy, but we all have a responsiblity to our colleagues and our passengers.

[pilot67]

I agree. We do not need to alert the bad guys of how we are protecting our passengers and selves.

Loose lips..sink ships.

[Eboy]

The union spokespeople might also consider revealing less information about possible defenses: http://www.wjla.com/showstory.hrb?f=n&s=17179&f1=n

[ 16 September 2001: Message edited by: Eboy ]

[maxalt]

I've already (quite incredibly) been censored for asking..no, DEMANDING...that people shut the f*** up on the discussion of SOPs.

Free speech on PPrune? Only of you're a blabber mouth assisting the lunatic fringe garner info.

And PS...it's not just hardened terrorists who'd like to take down a/c, so don't give me the 'they already know how' b***s**t.

[WhiteSail]

I couldn't agree more chaps.

The less people that know what actions we may (or may not) take, the better.

Security is meant to be restricted information (at least in the UK), and it is irresponsible to publish any such information.

[PPRuNe Radar]

maxalt

I think you'll find that you were censored for your tone and language rather than your message. I can see that it has not abated your style any.


For everyone else, the point being made is a valid one. If it's not something in the public domain, then it shouldn't be going up here. Not only do you pose a possible risk to the future security of the aviation system, you're very likely in breach of your company rules and could be liable for disciplinary action.

[Stopthink]

I think it is extremely likely that PPRuNe was used as an information site for these 'informed' terrorists.

No matter what anyone says - it is very clear that there is a security hazard with this site!

I find it astounding that people are discussing the way that security needs to change and airline/airport procedures on this public forum.

Equally astoundng is the fact that this site is not better censored and restricted - why on earth are peoples actual identities not stored with the site moderators before access is allowed.

Danny you have a very dangerous hobby!

[Self Loading Freight]

Stopthink--

It is, of course, potentially dangerous to publicise secret security information in any medium. But if that information is in the hands of people who are liable to spill the beans in places like here, I suspect the real problem doesn't lie with Pprune. It's not the only such place, not by a long chalk.

The factors behind the American attack succeeding include failure of the US intelligence agencies to pre-empt the threat, excreable US airport security, and an audacious and very well planned operation. While Pprune is useful to all pilots -- including nefarious ones -- I doubt that any of the measures you suggest would have changed history one iota. Even knowing who posted something wouldn't undo the posting, while someone bent on maliciousness could fake their ID in the first place.

Conversely, I would hope (in fact, have no doubt!) that people involved in planning and maintaining security are watching Pprune. It reflects what people are talking about anyway, and knowing what people know is important. In my experience of computer security, faults often *only* get fixed when publicised -- sometimes, well after the information has got out to the hackers.

After last week, I hope that Pprune will help raise people's awareness of the complexities of the issues at stake. It's a tough call where to draw the line between the increased freedom to talk from anonymity and a laissez-faire policy to posting, and the risks from a careless posting. But everyone in possession of sensitive information *has* to be considered a professional with full knowledge of the consequences of their action. Pprune doesn't change that.

R

[RatherBeFlying]

Judgement is called for. I believe security policies need very much to be discussed especially when failure is fully apparent. Full debate is essential to develop truly effective procedures. The new security regulations banning Swiss Army Knives, Leathermans and cutlery etc. are little more than a sop to the public to show that something has been done -- no matter how ineffectual. Next to follow as contraband will be metal-barelled pens and pencils and keys, all of which can inflict major, even fatal, injury.

Just what specific measures are adopted by individual operators are of course confidential. As far as El Al's security procedures are concerned, a good deal has been published in the newspapers over the years, some likely at El Al's behest to deter tha bad guys.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have not seen one thing on PPRuNe that is not available elsewhere.

I think you are overeacting.

Last Tuesdays events were obviously well funded and resourced. It looks like they put their manpower through flight training all the way to a sim course. I doubt there was little technical info they did not know already.

As for operational matters - are you suggesting that every airline Ops manual ever printed is secure? No journals, seminars or manuals about airline security are available to anybody who has reason to seek them? Hardly.

Whilst I recognise 'they' have to be seen to be doing something to give general reassurance to the public I am finding the continued antics of Operation 'Stable Door' and Operation 'Bolted Horse' to be highly unamusing.

a) Why are we searching EVERYONES hand luggage when its been screened already? What do the machines miss that a harassed security 'gaurd' will find? And, ummm, is it really necessary to search half the aircrafts passengers who in some instances this week have been clearly over 60 and as more likely to wet themselves as put a knife to my throat on a UK domestic flight.

b) What is the point of locking the highly kick downable flightdeck door and banning flightdeck visits? Like that is going to stop terrorists with a will to die and a year in the planning.

c) As far as I understand it NONE of the measures currently being taken would actually prevent another WTC being made out of Canary Wharf. X-rays can still buy a ticket, come on board with a harmless looking piece of plastic and male wash kit and they can still gain access to the flight controls.

WWW

[flybythread]

WWW

How you can consider people to be overreacting !

Yes this horse has well and truly bolted but this does not absolve this site of its responsiblities as you as a moderator.

Nearly all employees have a confidentiality agreement, further those operators carrying out Operations on behalf of HM Gov have to comply with the Official Secrets Act. Ops manuals may have been in the public arena in the past, but following these events are you saying what has happened in the past is OK.

Now, I agree much of the stuff I have found is already in the Public Arena, some is not, but are you now telling me the press is now an accurate source of Aviation Information.

We have spent much of our time on this site decrying the presses general misunderstanding of Aviation Operations. Do you honestly believe the press do not use this site to obtain some of the oppinions they so often get wrong.

One of our colleauges gives out Brymons new cockpit access SOP, others those about Fed Ex's new offline Jump seat policy. These are confidential and without public proliforation would require any potential terrosrist to "Test the Airline" , Now they dont have to bother.

These B'strds vere very well prepared to a level of proficiencey you, me and almost every other pilot on this site finds deeply shocking.

Lets not give them any other specifics that might help them along the way, we are not the press, we are at the sharp end and our info is very useful to both the press and the bad guys.

Please just some judgement and responsibility, this is a great site and most of us appreciate the work you guys put in to keep it going.

[maxalt]

I have not seen one thing on PPRuNe that is not available elsewhere.
Right, so let's put it all together in one place where the loonys can find it easier. After all, why make life hard for them?

Why are we searching EVERYONES hand luggage...
Are you going to provide guidelines as to who should be searched and who not? i.e. "He looks a bit Arabic...take him apart"?

What is the point of locking the highly kick downable flightdeck door and banning flightdeck visits? Like that is going to stop terrorists with a will to die and a year in the planning.
No, but it might stop the opportunist loonies, and it makes me feel a lot better.

I think you'll find that you were censored for your tone and language rather than your message.
Well I guess we should all be very British and polite and ask the nasty terrorists if they wouldn't mind not doing that again?
No apologies for my 'tone'. I call a spade a spade. This site is getting out of order...and I don't mean the bad language!

[Capt PPRuNe]

I thought you would like to see the type of suppression we face if we let people, like the one who has written the following letter, have their way.

My reply follows after.

CC:

Civil Aviation Authority – Head of Safety and Regulation Group

The Embassy of the United States of America – Federal Aviation Authority and National Transportation Safety Board Representatives

The UK Transport Minister

DTLR – Head of Aviation Security

Head of the Air Accident Investigation Branch

Chairman of the UK Flight Safety Committee

Confidential Human Incident Reporting Programme

British Airline Pilots Association

Head of Security at BAA Heathrow

Professional Pilots Rumour Network – Danny Ffyne


Dear Sir

I am an airline captain working from London Heathrow airport. I am writing to you in light of the abhorrent terrorist act that has been committed in the United States of America. I have watched the events unfold with quite a concerned interest. Whilst not claiming to be an aviation security expert, I do have more than an informed view on these matters - I am a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and work as an airline security officer. I feel that there is an urgent issue that needs bringing to your attention.

I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org (http://www.pprune.org) <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.

This website has been running for some years and has now become very popular. It is fully available to the general public and is a totally anonymous way of posting controversial information regarding the aviation industry. Postings on this bulletin board are generally nonsense, gossip and rumour - but with a dangerously informed accent to them. Due to the sites anonymity, and pool of informed contributors, it could also be - and may well have been - used by potential terrorists to obtain information regarding the airline industry.

I hear that hijackers and individuals subsequently detained may have been carrying false crew identifications and uniforms. Amongst aircrew, it has been known for some time that crew are afforded less stringent security precautions than passengers. It is a sad fact that our own desire for idle gossip on this web site may have offered potential terrorists this and other privileged information. I have seen many postings requesting information on, or debating issues about, airline security. How crews are likely to react to hijackings or a serious threat is just one issue I have seen debated recently – sometimes overtly and otherwise subtly.

As you read this letter many so called professionals are discussing, on an open and public forum, the way that aviation security needs to change and procedures that are being put in place. I am shocked that these people are not contemplating the foolishness of this.

Not all pilots may agree with me as they feel this site is a useful network for information and is a pastime for them. It is clear, however, that there is a potential security risk with this site and I would like to register a formal complaint about it. I and many other experienced airmen see this site as serious risk. Those that promote it are clearly naive.

I would like to see the site either closed down. Or, at the very least, become unavailable to the general public. Regardless of any other steps, contributors must be made to fully identify themselves to the site moderators before being allowed to contribute.

I realise that the Internet is a very difficult thing to regulate. I am also aware that if this site were closed then another, perhaps more controversial, site could open in it’s place. Something must be done, however, to prevent restricted and sensitive information reaching parties that may have a sinister use for it. Perhaps now is the time that appropriate legislation to control the Internet is enacted.

Yours faithfully

My reply:

Sir,

I have just arrived back from operating one of the first flights to operate into the USA since the airspace was reopened and so have not had a chance to read or analyse your email at length. Having said that, I would like to point out that I was immediately struck by your naivety, particulalry considering your claimed position as a DLTR approved aviation security instructor.

Considering that the tragic events of the last few days are still clouded in confusion and 'CNN' type speculation, the fact that you believe that PPRuNe could provide 'priveleged' information that is not available in much greater detail from many other public and official sources shows an ignorance that should be corrected as soon as possible.

Considering the planning that went into these acts of mass murder, including the fact that the terrorists must have had some formal training in a full motion flight simulator, a view I clearly put forward in live interviews on national radio and which has since been confirmed, then you would know the sums of money that must be at the disposal of the group or groups who carried out this horrific attack. If you honestly believe that PPRuNe played a part in educating these people, considering the resources that they have at their disposal, in particulalr using the site to get most of their details from instead of more informative sources then you are truly ignorant of modern day information technology and the internet.

One thing we have always prided ourselves on at PPRuNe is the moderation of the forums and no more so is that visible than in the 'Military Forum'. If you honestly think that the security services are unable to monitor a website like PPRuNe without coming to conclusions about the content and taking the necessary steps to prevent any release of sensitive information then again you are in dire need of some more education about the phenomenon of the Internet.

One thing you should be aware of is the fact that although posters on PPRuNe are anonymous to you, the server log files and IP addresses that I keep are available to any security service should they have the facilities to tap into them. From those a trace can be made and the Internet Service Providor of the user identified, but you knew this didn't you? As far as I am aware I still live in England and the server is in the USA and no laws have been passed that that restrict some of the civil liberites that you and I enjoy. As with all operations connected with PPRuNe, no laws have been broken.

I too am an airline pilot and together with every person who contributes to PPRuNe was as shocked and sickened by the events of last Tuesday. The internet is a double edged sword when it comes to discussing those events and the repercussions on our industry. Unfortunately you seem to believe that we should conduct our business under a black cloak and do not appear to comprehend the saturation of information technology and the internet with the spread of information and how that information empowers all of us. Indeed, many of the organisations you copied your original e-mail to also have websites which also detail information connected with the aviation industry and it's operations, including accident and incidents.

The real problem is, in my view, the massive failure of the various intelligence services that are supposed to be watching out for signs which may point to atrocities such as this being carried out. If they were as intelligent as you then no doubt they too would be reading PPRuNe and either preventing such sensitive information leaking out to organisations that plan on using it to commit more heinous acts of terror or using it to chase up on all those people that are not in the business but have an interest in it.

Having seen the reshaped skyline of Manhattan yesterday, with smoke still rising above the city from as far away as southern Maine, I am offended by your allegations and uneducated fears. Please feel free to reply with some evidence of specific allegations where any information that is not in the public domain has been revealed on PPRuNe and I will take back my comments.


Yours sincerely,

[PPRuNe Pop]

Well here is another administrator/moderator, and one who supports everything that Danny has said and what my colleagues have said, and NOTHING any of the posts have said. Wanna know why? Well I'll tell you anyway.

The problem of moderating PPRuNe is a very heavy tasked one. I personally login at between 6 and 7 every morning and stay for a couple of hours, then at various times during the day. I don't get paid for my efforts. Don't want it. But I have watched this thread for the past two days, and reached the conclusion that it was basically hysterical, overreactive and completely out of synch with reality. What is worrying though, from the looks of the dates that most of you registered on PPRuNe, there is not much idea of what PPRuNe is actually about. You could have been lurkers but that doesn't make any contribution.

Indeed, most of the rants about SOP's and Ops Manual are so far removed from reality I am breathless.

Take manuals. These are, and always have been, easy to acquire, mostly by other airlines who just want to change the current airline operator's name and insert their own. Been done that way for years. How many people who handle manuals have taken them home, well you have to don't you? Maybe YOU have given a sight to a third party, perhaps even allowed them to have longer looks. Or is it even possible that you have allowed one to copied?? It's no good "standing back in amazement" it happens.

So let us have a look at this pontification. StopThink registered yesterday. Did you have much to do with PPRuNe prior, or know what it was about? And the others are equally, with the exception of maxalt, unlikely to have any idea what PPRuNe is really about. A Sim Instructor and like me retired, a computer consultant and one ATP.

PPRuNe has hundreds of Captains, First Officers, Training Captains, Chief Pilots, Cabin Staff, Engineers and people from just about every corner of aviation you can think of. Flying talent abounds on PPRuNe.

I have to say that I think your posts have not been thought through. And losing one's temper get's you no points at all.

PPRuNe is not and never will be a hive of information for a terrorist. The planning for their barbaric act would have taken years and years to implement. Do you think they would have gotten their information on timetables from PPRuNe? Would they have gotten their manuals from PPRuNe, printed in Arabic? But where DID they get them from? Would they have got anything from PPRuNe to help, most unlikely. Everything they did was precise and PPRuNe couldn't help them.

As Danny says, the real problem behind this attack was lack of intelligence. A massive lack of it. Should MI6 have had a look on PPRuNe to find out what was going to happen? Just about as stupid as it can get wouldn't you say.

I think you would be wise to assess what the reality of this very sad event is. PPRuNe did not add to it, and again as Danny says, you point out one item of information that appeared on PPRuNe that helped the terrorists and we will take back everything we say. Remember, you will have to go back years and years.

Forget knee-jerk re-actions and look at the wider picture. Also, you need to have a vast knowledge of aviation and of airlines before you can assume anything. Not even PPRuNe can provide that!!


PPRuNe Pop
Administrator
[email protected]

[samson.]

WWW and Danny- a sensible, non hysterical response - thank you. Shutting pprune would not solve any problems whatsoever. It would be a blow only for free speech, and not for terrorism.

[flybythread]

Danny

The letter to the SRG may be slightly OTT, but your arrogance in terms of security is astounding. You put down the head of the CAA SRG as if a fool, I take it your exposure at Emerald and elsewhere to security issues makes you and expert on the issue. I am no more an expert than you, but obviously the true exeperts have some concerns.

You have all done such a good job wth this site I believe you understimate its influence. If you are so cock sure, it is very unfortunate, I think this is a sad day for PPrune that you are not even willing to express some concern.

[ 17 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]

[Kaptin M]

The security issues being raised on PPRuNe are done so because THIS is the ONLY forum where ALL of us - worldwide - can put our heads together and speak with one voice. To my knowledge no-one has discussed specifically classified information, which in some cases is available only to specific employees - the topics discussed here are something that all airport and airline employees have access to, either directly or indirectly.

Additionally, the manuals containing the sops for company employees are easily obtained from any company office and in most cases employees homes, so why spend hours ploughing through PPRuNe, when the whole lot can be found in one location?

Certainly some of the subjects may "alarm" the public, and new airline recruits, as they might APPEAR to be classified, however for any professional hijack/terrorist group it is stuff with which they will be thoroughly familiar.

I believe it is NECESSARY to publically highlight the weaknesses in our systems NOW, because if WE know about them, you can be sure that our opponents also will be aware.
It is unfortunate that the people who have been made responsible for OUR safety and security are not in consultation with US, but rather, dictate to us their hypotheses.

Airing the overtly deficient areas of security here on PPRuNe is more likely to gain an immediate fix, at a time when Time IS of the essence!

[ornithopter]

Danny is right.

Even if this site did let out secrets, what is to stop someone enrolling in a flight school and getting a job with an airline? Do you think my background was checked when I enrolled at a flight school? (not that I have anything to hide). How do you know your neighbour is not a terrorist? If one of my friends is a terrorist without my knowledge does that stop me from enrolling in a flight school if background checks were to be made?

It is good to see that some people have not lost thier sense of reality during these very difficult times. Do not get me wrong, I am as shocked by this as anyone, and upset and all the other emotions that go along with something so terrible, but let's not lose our heads. If we restricted as much as some people suggest, then we will have lost our freedom that so many people fought so hard for. The world wars killed many times more than the WTC and Pentagon and were more serious on a world scale. They were fought so that we could have our freedoms and a single day in history should not stop that. People knee jerk in times like this and miss important things. If for instance we lock aircraft doors then so we should with passenger liners, trains, juggernauts etc. A thousand people could be killed in a train hijack without any difficulty, but because that has not yet happened, people tend to ignore it. If we close down Pprune then what about all the other sources of information a terrorist could use? It is not just aeroplanes, a terrorist can strike anywhere there is an opportunity. Perhaps we should lock up train spotters just in case?

I have been reading Pprune for years, but posted very little, this is because I normally have nothing to add or because threads are getting too long. As someone who has been affected a great deal by the recent events, both personally and professionally, I don't want to see needless restrictions and closing Pprune is ridiculous in the extreme.

I have every sympathy for those involved and hope we can beat terrorism working together, without arguments between us, frank discussion is important and this is the place for it.

Orni

[Capt PPRuNe]

You put down the head of the CAA SRG as if a fool, I take it your exposure at Emerald and elsewhere to security issues makes you and expert on the issue.

Uh? I think you need to re-read my comments. Nowhere have I mentioned the head of of CAA SRG! You obviously believe that the person who wrote the letter is the head of the SRG but you are wrong. I know for a fact that many people in the SRG read PPRuNe every day.

As for Emerald? What on earth are you on about? If you are so afraid and truly believe that there have been breaches of security here on PPRuNe please list them and I will retract my statements. Until then PPRuNe will continue to be a forum for professional pilots to discuss issues that affect them with input from everyone else that has an interest in aviation.

To believe that something that was mentioned on PPRuNe led to these murderers being able to get through security is just preposterous and shows ignorance beyond belief. Try going to a main library in any major city and see what you can find out that has never been mentioned on PPRuNe and would make the hairs on the back of your neck stand out.

Knee-jerk reactions are expected in traumatic time such as these but to put out such nonsense that PPRuNe possibly was used by terrorists to glean information that is so many times easier to find out by going to the library suprises me, especially when it comes from colleagues. I know of several who like our profession to be a black art with little knowledge of our ways available to those outside the sect but with the size of our indistry today and the requirements for entry into it together with the power of the internet for information distribution has made that a thing of the past.

I will reiterate again, the only way to prevent acts of terror occuring on and with aircraft is to prevent the sub-humans who would perpetrate these acts from getting on board them in the first place and that requires huge investment in facilities for the intelligence services so that they are not caught out ever again. Already in the USA they are talking about giving the security services unrestricted access to tap communications.

Whilst we applaud the fight against terrorism we must also not forget the question "who polices the police?".

[fullforward]

Dear Danny & WWW,

Excellent. Well balanced and lots of common sense on your posts. Keep the good job.

Unfortunately, 11 September tragedy will bring a lot of paranoid and hysterical behaviors and measures.
But the terrorists will be enjoying a partial victory if we allow democracy rules be bent into something more like dictatorships.

People asking for control over PPRUNE are as naive as affraid of free speech and, ultimately, democracy itself.

[Nick Figaretto]

Thanks, Danny, WWW & Pop.

Free speech and open discussions is the only path to a higher level of aviation safety.

[Few Cloudy]

Well, as I mentioned in the thread about cockpit doors, this is war.

There are a few things which can be done by companies/crews. In a previous company these were in the handbook and got amended from time to time. In the services, when this happens, the old pages are to be destroyed. In the airline business this is not so. I managed in that airline to get the pages striped with a red line to make people more aware of this.

The few available tactics are of extreme interest to a hijacker - his success depends upon accurate knowledge. Company recommendations, which may vary from resistance of some kind, to obeying the hijacker (that one wouldn't have helped in the WRT case) to fancy comm. or systems use
are classified information, much as a military base has to keep its measures secure.

I am afraid this takes time to sink in but as in the days of civilian ships carrying some form of defence against piratry, the airline industry needs to be aware and regard its security measures cnfidential, if not secret. This is not an over reaction, rather has there been an under reaction previously.

[propjock]

Hi Danny

Just want to tell you I agree 100%.

pprune is a great site for us professionals ( and not-quite-professionals) to have constructive, light-hearted and sometimes timewasting discussions about a variety of important and utterly unimportant subjects...

...but any terrorist who would have to rely on the information posted here would certainly reduce their chance of success by quite a margin and should consider a carreer change ( as should all terrorists for that matter)

we have all been deeply touched by the events and it is a good thing that we start questionning our own standarts for safety, but we should keep a cool head and see this site as what it is... a very necessary forum for discussion amongst fellow professionals, not more, not less.

[Devils Advocate]

Danny & Co. are right, imho.

There have, as we all know been many advances in aviation security measures, e.g. pax, crew and baggage screening, etc.. but as has been said, perhaps the only way to stop this from happening is to stop the nutters from getting to the aircraft in the first place - and that is a neigh on impossible task to do.

E.g. How do you know that an apparently bonefide airline pilot (i.e. any one of us) is not some convert to and / or 'sleeper' within a religious sect (of what ever denomination) poised to strike when the command is receive from the sect leader ? Indeed, there could be dozens like that !
And it doesn't take a security specialist (what ever that is) to figure out that a pilot so inclined, sitting in the flight-deck of a shiny jet, would find it only too easy to lock the flight deck door, kill the other bloke (could use the crash axe, or garrotte them with a shoe lace ?), and fly the aircraft into what ever target the sect has chosen - and with a lot more accuracy than was exhibited last week. So what's to do, ban all flight crew ?

And ****** me, it doesn't even need an airliner. Your average PPL'er has enough aircraft & fuel to do serious damage, if the need takes them ! So perhaps we should we ban ALL aviation, just in case ?

Let's accordingly please keep away from knee-jerk reactions or ridiculously stupid hypothesising, and long live PPRuNe !

Ps. As me old mum used to say, "There's non so righteous as the newly converted", and that's too true !

[flybythread]

Danny

If your response to the letter you posted was to the Writer and not to the CAA that is my mistake.

My points, if you would re read them are specific to stopping measures activley being put into place by airlines in response to these events being posted on this site, especially when the airline is named.

This information is confidential, unless that airline chooses to publish them. Again Manuals have always been open as has the cockpit door, we all agree that things have to change, and that included the availability of such privellaged information in the public domain.

All I ask of you is that your organisation commits to keeping what is confidential privellaged information that way. That has nothing to do with balanced and open discussion about the way forward which takes place on this site, for which this is a great site as I have said before.

Lastly on a positive note you have a huge audience, why not use it in a positive, forward mannor and get all pilots who visit this site to start to petiton, In our case to BALPA and the DOT for increased security for the cockpit along the lines many have suggested.

As I said right at the begining of this thread, it is really just a common sense and responsible approach and far from a "Hysterical Overreaction" and wish to shutdown PPrune.

[ 18 September 2001: Message edited by: flybythread ]

[Flap 5]

Thank you PPRuNe moderators for your common sense approach to this. It makes a change to some of the hysterical rantings of some contributors.

If only a certain Bin Laden had such moderate common sense - then this tragedy would never have happened.

It is also easy to blame scurity. For sure it was not good on internal US flights but the enormous hatred required for these acts defies all normal belief.

[Capt PPRuNe]

Please note that we have always monitored these forums for idiots who would go beyond what is considered normal and breach security issues. We are responsible and we do remove posts where the poster has breached anything we consider as sensitive and not freely available.

So far though, everything being discussed is in the public domain and it is only issues which are obvious to anyone with any common sense. You can go into any bookstore and purchase flight manuals and books on security issues that all contain some of the information discussed in these topics including explanations of transponder codes and their uses and many other issues.

If anyone is irresponsible enough to discuss security issues that are not commonly known about and are classified as restricted then we will remove them and as well as block the foolish berson making more posts and if necessary provide their details to the police or security services so that they can take appropriate measures to contain any leaks. So far though that has not happened and the frenzy of attacks on the right of us as pilots to discuss issues that affect us only goes to show how some people overreact in times of crisis.

If anyone has constructive ideas that they feel should not be discussed on a public forum then I am sure someone here will provide the necessary addresses, either snail mail or email where they can be sent for consideration.

[flybythread]

Thanks

It took a while but that was all I was after, just so some of the fellows out there know where the line is and the possible consequences if they disclose what they should not.

[Clear IT IN!]

Danny

Whilst letter to SRG may be an angry reaction, there is a point that there is possibly some risk from this collective pool of information here.

Some one suggested that you, at least, insist upon full identification of people posting - you and your moderators keeping this information private and stored. They can still continue in relative anonymity but with the knowledge that their identities could be revealed if approached legally for such information.

I think that must be the way forward - to protect yourself, if anything.

[rob_frost]

I agree perfectly. As I said in a similair post, if the terrorists spent years and years preparing ( as it appears they did ) they probably knew more about airport security etc than some security experts and most pilots. Do you every SOP by heart? And every loop hole in the security? They are the ones they probably could have posted sensitive information. The stuff on Pprune ( no insult ) was probably lesson 1, day 1.

Rob

[Approaching_the_minimums]

Shutting down pprune? I can't possibly see what good that's going to do.
Regardless of some of the people postings here, I am still convinced that all ATP's are wise enough not to discuss security subjects in to that extent that it could be off use to people planning criminal acts on a modern airliner.
What are these people thinking, wanting to stop pprune. After that they may demand to prohibit pilots of having conversations among one another outside of secure areas. No more hanging at the pub guys. :eek:
And what about the security hazard of all those PC flight simulators which go to such detail these days, that one can learn to control it's systems (I didn't say fly it! :p)on it.

Like all the moderators have so eloquenlty put, you can easily find a lot more detailed information on the net and other sources. We just have to count on everyones good judgement on this and for all the rest I trust Danny and his team.

ADM

[Al_666]

Just a quick reply. IP addressed can be forged, or more specifically you can 'borrow' someone elses - which therefore means using a trace of the IP address useless - check out any remailing server.

Up until a few years ago, you could send a book containing strong encryption codes out of the US - but you couldn't send software which used these codes, therefore it was possible to code your own encryption software!!!! The CIA are (as I understand it) beleived to have intercepted a number of emails from these terrorists but, as they used a high level of encryption they didn't have enough time to crack it. Now if these people have got such a level of encryption that it is going to take the CIA a few days to crack, why would they need to be reading posts on air line security? Surly flying and being alert be more than enough to work it out?

Oh, and as for MS Flight Sim? Tch!

And I aplogise if I've wound anyone up with this reply!

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

Clear IT IN! - with over 500 people each week joining PPRuNe there is no way whatsoever we could verify each and every person's identity.


---Mik

[Monkey See Monkey Do]

Having noticed time and time again some views criticising this well maintained forum for being against the aviations' interest, I cant stay quiet any longer.

I am truly shocked and angry at these views. This forum is a resource aimed at doing good, and as Danny stated any determined persons who might want to use any information on this site for doing terrible things is able to find even better info elsewhere (unfortunately).

In the advent of the internet era there will always be sources of dangerous information, however this site is not one of them.

Why not criticise the BBC News online for telling Bin Laden that we're after him? Now hes able to scurry away and hide under a rock.

I think if there are any problems with security in the Airlines, then if anything, this site can put them right. Tell the world where the airline industry is wrong and it will likely try to correct it. What better way to quickly get something done?
(ok, not such a good idea if someone uses this info before security is patched up, but hey, its a difficult area)

Monkey See Monkey Do
'ahh, ok I feel better'

[Sir Algernon Scruggs]

I have seen a copy of the letter referred to by Captain Pprune and would you believe it there is actually an ulterior motive at play here! :eek:

I am an airline captain working from London Heathrow airport. I am writing to you in light of the abhorrent terrorist act that has been committed in the United States of America. I have watched the events unfold with quite a concerned interest. Whilst not claiming to be an aviation security expert, I do have more than an informed view on these matters - I am a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and work as an airline security officer. I feel that there is an urgent issue that needs bringing to your attention.

I am very concerned about the Internet web site PPRuNe - Professional Pilots Rumour Network – www.pprune.org (http://www.pprune.org) <http://www.pprune.org/> - and the security implications of this site.

The author is someone who was exposed on PPrune several years ago after he failed to respond to a depressurisation and carried on flying under the assumption that the warning sound was something to do with the landing gear until the cabin crew informed him that it was difficult trying to do a service in the cabin with the rubber jungle hanging down. Allegedly he had been given a job as a line trainer based on some porkies about his previous experience.

If this person is now a DLTR approved aviation security instructor and works as an airline security officer then maybe the agencies involved in vetting these impostors should do their homework a bit more thoroughly.

Maybe this silly person has just made another error of judgement and will explain to us here on PPrune why he really wants this website closed down.
:rolleyes:

[Hogwash]

Sir Algernon Scruggs: thanks for that info. it makes sense of the drivel that this man has posted!

I find it hard to believe that anyone can see a threat to security on PPRuNe. I have never read a thread here that I believed to be close to the bone.

Any airlines security is impossible to keep secret, staff come and go and manuals get trashed and not destroyed etc. etc..

I will probably be attacked for this but it is my belief that advertising ones security, to a point, will keep the criminal element away, as they will seek softer targets. Hence security camera notices on private houses and commercial concerns.

[InFinRetirement]

Oh dear! How embarrassing for a "Captain" working at LHR, as a DLTR approved security "expert" to be exposed as an alledged fraudster by the inscrutable Sir Algernon Scruggs!

How much homework did THIS security agency do then - when they gave this stupid person his approval?

Oh well, I must get the eggs out again - damn I shall have to go to the supermarket I haven't got enough for a king size omellette!
:D :rolleyes:

Oh btw! I support Sir Algernon's request that you state EXACTLY why YOU want PPRuNe shut down. No-one else does.

[Celtic Emerald]

I know it sounds selfish but I have to admit I was kinda upset about not being able to visit the flightdeck anymore and enjoy the company of all those lovely FR pilots till I realised that Maxalt was a FR driver :eek:
Think I'd be safer not being up there :p

Emerald