Standards @ QF

[Kaptin M]

What's good for the goose........................:ouch:

"Let he who is without blame, cast the FIRST stone"!

Okay guys, I am NOT a religious freak!
As a matter of FACT, I don't claim ANY religious deposition.
Personally, I believe that each and every one of us is responsible for his/her own destiny/karma/call-it-what-you-will!!
That way, you can't "pass the buck"!! :}

Another cliche in aviation warns us "Be careful of the toes that you step on today, because they might (well) be connected to the @rse you have to kiss tomorrow!!"

There are more than likely a few smug QF PPRuNeR's whose eyes are smarting at the moment from another thread.
And it WILL happen again!

NO-ONE is immune from mistakes!

Each and every one of you employed in Australian aviation should be proud that YOU have been SELECTED to hold the position that you do.
It's because of your KNOWLEDGE & EXPERIENCE that you are where you are............................by the same token, if you ever fell sick and were unable to perform your duties, your position would be quickly filled by the next in line.

So whilst YOU might be considered the "best wo/man for the job" at selection time, the "next best" is less than heartbeat away!
As distant as that heartbeat might be, it is ONLY your PROFESSIONAL opinion!

[Yorik Hunt]

YOU may wish to remember your own advice, instead of pontificating on your high horse as though YOU are the only person on these forums who knows anything about aviation.

Unfortunately, your advice is a double edged sword.

[Icebreaker]

....and Magutzup (Yorik) strikes again:}

[Mr Nightmare]

There seem to be a lot of experts here on these forums dishing out advice on all matters aviation. Anonimity brings out the frustrated ones and empowers them with such self indulgent glory,that it makes one almost want to throw up.

Blowing sunshine up one's rear seems to be the popular thing. Hey Kaptin?

Thanks for the lecture though, I'll take it onboard.

[spinout]

Its called a double standard……:cool:

[Argus]

KAP

Sounds like a life in politics - today's rooster is tomorrow's feather duster?

[Pete Conrad]

Kap, so whats your point? you peeved that you didn't make it into Qantas?

[Yorik Hunt]

Gday Pete. Where ya been buddy?

The Kraptin has had a little diarrhea lately. So much so that its frothing from his mouth. You see he is still a little p1ssed about QF's role in '89. So he wants to continue his little campaign to put the guys down, no matter what.

But he is very, very transparent.

Personally, I'm glad he lost his job in '89. Couldn't think of a nicer bloke for it to happen to.

[Kaptin M]

Argus has paraphrased it pretty well, Pete - and no, I'm not peeved that I didn't accept the offer to join QF (in 1990), prior to that it had always been my LAST choice of airline employment in Australia anyway, simply because long haul flying didn't appeal, plus the fact that one has to spend x number of years riding around on the jump seat - pretty soul-destroying, mind-numbing stuff for a pilot, don't you reckon!
Yousillik Hunt ("Gday Pete. Where ya been buddy?, undoubtedly screeched in a high falsetto) is "living" proof of that.

[Icebreaker]

...and it's the Pete & Yorik(Magutzup) kiddies show...same bat time, same bat channel...stay tuned folks.:81 &:8 2

[Wizofoz]

Kap,

In spite of our differences, there are some amazing parallels between us.

I went through the QF mill in 2001 after the AN collapse and was offered a position.

During the process some of the best, most professional airline pilots I knew failed to get through the psycho babble selection process. I have no doubt QF missed out on some real talent thanks to it's intransigence in insisting on relying on it’s "Basic skills" BS.

I turned the job down (I had another offer) for many of the reasons you have related. I didn't want to do long haul. I didn't want to warm a jump seat after years as a real pilot. And not least, the money was cr@p! (I had always been paid more than an equivalent rank/TIS in QF. Guess that meant I was a safer pilot!!).

Mostly, though, I was keenly aware of an undercurrent of arrogance and ego amongst a lot of QF pilots.

I remember a good friend relating how, as an SO, he got a little high on an approach in a -400. With a huge stage sigh the Captain had, without a word, reached over and put the gear down. I've got around 7000hrs Multi Crew Command and currently sometimes fly with 300hr FOs, but I would NEVER THINK of doing such a thing. Make them aware they're high, suggest they "Dirty Up", make an "I" statement (I think the gear would be a good idea Jim), and if nothing was working, TAKE OVER. But to decide to change configuration and not bother to discuss it with the PF??!!

Worst thing was I related this to another QF friend (an FO), who’s opinion was "Fair enough, when I get a command, that's what I'd do."

It convinced me there was an endemic CRM problem in the company.

Why then, should we be surprised when a Captain reaches over and closes the throttles whilst an FO is half way through initiating a go-around.

Equally unsurprising that some QF pilots should leap upon the "We got in, therefore anyone who didn't is less safe" bandwagon when they feel threatened by a group from outside who can fly an aircraft just as effectively as they can. I'm sure within the cloistered halls of QF they can voice such ludicrous crud unchallenged...

But they won't get away with it here...

[Flying Ninja]

Dear Kraptin,

If anyone is responsible for your destiny,Karma(?) (and I would include state of mind), it is YOU.
Your past actions and verbal vitriol have labled you a buck passer forever.
It is like a neon sign tatooed on your forhead.
If for some reason the ambient lighting washes out the sign, you will surely open your mouth( sooner rather than later) and trumpet the same message in your own unmistakable style.
Perhaps you should have taken the " offer " from QF in 1990; something els to think about while you were driving home thinking of what you had done to "friends and family" by signing up with Ansett.

One would have to start with the presumption that one has a brain to numb by sitting in the third seat before making the decision that you made.
I will let you think about that one but, I believe that many who read this will wonder if a little brain numbing wouldn't have been beneficial for you.

Hey, why don't you phone up QF now and ask for a little mind therapy.
For the others that read this:
I personally believe that there must be a problem within a company that does not face the obvious safety and standards problems exposed by the "skins game" at the Bangkok Golf club and then goes to the extent that they have to cover up those problems from the public.
Question is : How many of the QF crew and dept heads will also believe the PR.?

[Yorik Hunt]

Wiz. Much of what you say I cannot and will not argue with. Indeed, I agree with what you say. However, you have twisted my argument, or you haven't understood what I have said.

We got in, therefore anyone who didn't is less safe

I have not said this, and I will not agree with it. My point is this. Maybe, just maybe, the awfully flawed QF recruiting machine got it right on just one occasion. And that is they turned down an applicant. For good reason. He or she simply did not have the aptitude. And I hope you will agree that not everyone has the aptitude to be a pilot, let alone an airline pilot.

So this person, who was turned down by QF for good reason, goes and gets a job flying B1900's. Now they are in the left seat of a 717, or even A320, for the effectively same airline, just on half the pay. They have been previously told by QF that they are not suitable, now somehow they are?????

Please tell me that you can see the obvious contradiction here. Dont tell me that the QF recruiting system is incorrect on 100% of occasions. Dont see this through anti QF coloured glasses. Look through the forrest and see the tree that I'm pointing at.

Krap M? Methinks Ninja has you sorted out....:p :p :p

[DutchRoll]

Wiz, the experience of your mate as an S/O, while undoubtedly true, is not 'typical' - at least not these days anyway. I speak from experience Wiz, not from opinion or hearsay.

There are 2000 pilots in QF, and it would be naive (and just plain wrong) to think that there are none who are 'CRM-challenged'. However most QF pilots, 747-400 Captains included, that I've flown with would be scathing in their opinion of the individual Captain you talk of. Was every Captain in AN a CRM legend? I think not. Are there no arrogant pilots in CX, DJ, BA? Are they all just in QF? Again, I think not!

On recruitment, no system is perfect & I'd be the last to say that QF's is (I know guys who missed out too, much to my surprise). But they have to assess you against some standard, whatever that may be. Heck, I know people (non airline types) who've been excellent candidates for a particular job but missed out because they just don't interview well! And just because someone flew for AN, or whoever, doesn't mean that you should be able to snap your fingers and walk into a job by default, nor would I expect anything less when the shoe is on the other foot and QF pilots apply for other airlines.

Why then, should we be surprised when a Captain reaches over and closes the throttles whilst an FO is half way through initiating a go-around.
I'm not saying that it wasn't a giant stuff-up, but that's a pretty gross and mis-leading over-simplification of the whole incident.

[Sked]

Is it true that the Captains at QF do a different CRM reval (i.e. not in the same classroom at the same time) to other tech and cabin crew? If so it would rather defeat the purpose of CRM ideology, would it not?

[Howard Hughes]

Yorik,

What about the ones who do get through?

You surely are not trying to tell us that the QF selection machine is 100% correct and that people, who in your words "do'nt have the aptitude to be a pilot, let alone an airline pilot", cant get through the system.

Let me tell you they do! I also suspect that these would be the same people who fail to effectively participate in a multicrew environment.

You seem to assume that the level required for entry is constant, I suspect that this is not the case and that the bar is raised or lowered, depending on recruitment trends at the time.

Also the fact that someone has'nt passed the QF selection process, does'nt make them a pi$$ poor pilot, it just means that they may in QF's eyes be unsuitable for long haul! Or indeed one of a multitude of other factors that may be seen as undesirable.

ie: the ability to think for ones self!!

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: Dutch Roll, I just read your post and I must say, hear hear!
I think you succinctly got across the point I am trying to make, it surely does take all sorts to make a company!!

Cheers again, HH.

:ok:

[Yorik Hunt]

Well said Dutch and Howard. Good to see some reasonable debate here without screaming crazies like the Kraptin.

I'm not saying there aren't some weird guys who get through the Qf recruitment process. But if thats the case, then logic dictates that if you have been 'declined' then jeez, that doesn't auger well does it?

But that isn't my point. Let me say it again. I think there are some foibles in the QF recruitment system. But lets say they got it right just once. And with impulse, there is about one in one-fourty chance, that one of these guys hasn't the aptitude to be where he is.

[Kaptin M]

This "screaming crazy" slipped through the QF recruitment process, Yorik - so that makes 2 of us....YOU and me...that foiled the system. :uhoh:

Getting worried yet, Pete??!!!:}

The only difference though, is that I have managed to "fool" FIVE out of five majors to date, Yousillik Hunt.:O

[Prince of Dzun]

Kapitan M: Beri Jalan Kawan

I most definitely agree with everything you have said about the ego driven culture of the Rat airline. There is a wise Malay proverb that can explain it all and it goes "Bapa burik anak nya tentu rintik". This translates into English as : "If the father is spotted then the children will be speckled." Take that on board and it's easy to understand the present day mind set.
Regards,

Prince of Dzun

P.S. Perhaps the above is too hard for some of the non thinkers , this is a little easier. "Kecil anak kalau sudah besar onak." or " A child when born; grown up a thorn. "

[Kaptin M]

Selamat, dan terima kaseh, Prince - an honour to have you here visiting this forum :O

Without a doubt, you experienced the best AND the worst in your day, of the seeds of today's crop.
Mind you, I believe there has been some culling (of the tall poppies) along the way.

Selamat jalan. Jampa lagi.:O

[Wizofoz]

Dutch,

By no means suggesting such attitudes are universal in, or restricted to QF. I know some great QF guys who would be a pleasure to work with, and yes I've worked with my share of "Difficult" personalities else where.

Reputations, however, whilst possibly unfair are not always without roots in the truth. Companies and organisations (not to mention countries!) do have engrained cultures and behavioral norms which can't help but effect those exposed to them.

I remember being shown an AIPA newsletter. Over a page was devoted to a rant by the then president (BP I believe) who was absolutley incensed...That a crewing officer had addressed him by his first name instead of Captain. The point was, in the context of QF, he was right. It is not just behavioral norm but stated and enforced policy at QF that everyone call the dude with four stripes "Captain." The president went on and on about appropriate respect etc., and by that he meant subservience. I ask you to quote any authoritive work on CRM that states this attitude is helpful to a good cockpit environment.

As to "That incident", the whole of this and other threads has been precipitated by a couple of (porportedly) QF pilots claiming "Another airline" is unsafe because of the pilots flying with it. As long as they do, I only think it fair that it be pointed out that QF has had it's fair share of scrapes, many attributable to the guys flying with you! I don't for a moment suggest that QF pilots are any less than thourough professtionals. I just don't think they (Or I!!) am in a position to go around labeling others, as if who we worked for automatically gave us a position of judgement.

[Yorik Hunt]

Wiz, couple of point with your post.

First, in so far as the culture of subservience. From my years in QF, that culture has changed (for the good) and is pretty much outdated. i'm not saying it doesnt exist any more, but it's a very small minority, and those culprits are about to retire.

Second, 'that incident' seems to be hashed over and over again when anyone wishes to 'attempt' to prove a point. No one has stated that QF is immune from accidents or it's fair share of scrapes. Nor is any other airline I might add. If you keep bringing that incident up you undermine your own agrument.

Third, I think that you are misinterpreting OUR position of judgement. A group of pilots have come along - for whatever reason they are there. They offer to fly your routes for 50% of the pay. Whether they have been rejected by QF or not, whether they are safe or not - they deserve to be judged because that is disgusting behaviour.

Kapt M? I don't believe for an instant that you were ever offered a position with QF. I believe that you are a stroker who is stroking a light speed.

[Pete Conrad]

Kap, why should I be worried? I have a good job, you on the other hand are still hung up over 89, and then you went to SQ and were one of the ones that ruined western reputations there as well.

If you had of used your so called intellect in 89, you wouldn't be where you are now, spending all your time on pprune trying to pick fights and spouting platitudes to people you don't even know.

Frankly speaking, those that bash QF, have either failed QF selection, or know that they lack the ability to get a job with them.

This is a useless thread started by QF bashers.

Oh and another thing Kap, thats a real shame that you view the role of S/O as demoralising. Most guys, and this includes military guys with more expertise than you could ever have, ex AN, GA, guys that have flown heavies overseas etc, see the light at the end of the tunnel and are prepared to learn as much as they can while S/O's therefore getting the most out of the position.

[DutchRoll]

I wouldn't and couldn't quote any text that suggests calling someone 'Captain' is necessary for good CRM. I could count the number of Captains I've flown with who insist on that on one hand (and in fact, if you cut three fingers off I could still count them). But, that was 'their thing' and despite the fact I think it's a bit of a wank, I'll call them 'Captain', 'Sir', 'Lord Captain Almighty', or whatever they need to make them feel good. I can't say that it was particularly hard. After the initial intro, 98% of skippers I've flown with have unsurprisingly been happy to be called 'Bill' or 'Pete' or 'John' or whatever.

On the topic of QF pilots who say that another airline is unsafe just because some of the pilots flying it have been rejected by QF - I don't agree at all. I'd hope that any QF pilots holding that view are in a very small minority.

Kap and Prince, I think you underestimate the intelligence of the so-called 'children'. QF recruits no longer have the main claim to fame that they fought the Japanese in Malaya or flew Sea Furys off the Ark Royal. Times have changed and while the odd 'speckled child' will always slip through in any outfit (I'm sure your own organisations are no exception), they are becoming few and far between.

[woftam]

Kaptin,Yorik and Pete.
How about you guys exchange email addresses and go for it in private or meet in the carpark and sort it out!
You are all as bad as each other.
All this "my dick is bigger" stuff is becoming very boring.

:yuk:

[Wizofoz]

Yorik,

They offer to fly your routes for 50% of the pay.

THANK YOU!!!

It's been obvious from the start that your objection to Jet star was financial, not safety related.

In that, you have a much worthier case, and I have no problem with you (politely and reasonably) arguing your case on that score.

I will make a point- you (and by that I mean the QF pilot body) must shoulder some of the blame for this situation. If you had allowed the Impulse (not to mention Q-link and regional) pilots to join the AIPA, and then negotiated on their behalf, they would have got a better deal and you could have negotiated better rights into J*. As they were not AIPA members, the IPA had absolutely no reason to show loyalty to you. The IPA mandate was to negotiate the best interests of their members. Well, A320 ratings, promotions for their FOs and a much more secure future is a pretty good deal from their point of view.

You may not like it, but you CHOSE it to be none of your business.

[Yorik Hunt]

Couple of points on your post there, Wiz.

First, when the IPA decided to undercut mainline, they drew a great deal of attention towards themselves, and much of this focussed on their level of safety. They will continue to do so through the introduction of the A320. If their level of safety is low then it could be directly attributed to the pay and selection criteria, thus opening a window of opportunity to adjust their pay level. I have made this very plain throughout my ranting about the organisation. BTW, have they failed the retest yet?

Second, I agree with your thoughts that AIPA is wholly responsible forr the shambollic situation that currently exists. These idiots were totally caught with their pants down and are now desparately attempting to plug the holes that have developed. The current incumbents are only partially responsible, but I have it on good authority that the previous president was specifically warned about what might happen, early enough to circumvent it! GD did nothing! (GD does not = Dixon BTW) IMHO, he should take 99% of the responsibility for AIPA.

But that still does not absolve the IPA for what they have done. Their lack of negotiating, their weak and submissive attitude (they would have sacked us otherwise! - bullsh1t), has affected us all in domestic airline flying.

This is quite contrary to their attitude on this forum, where they are full of bluff and bluster! If you guys are so self riteous - get out there and do something about your lot. Dont sit around and winge that AIPA didn't help you, poor darlings! Take some responsibility.

ACT like men and fix it yourselves. Before you drown everyone.

[Pete Conrad]

With men like ole glass jaws assdama running around believing, and I dont use that term lightly, I mean seriously believing, they are the only ones that fly jets Yorik, what do you expect?

[Prince of Dzun]

Kapitan M: Apa khabar kawan kawan

Actually I was just passing and noticed your name so I decided to say hello. I'm enroute (in my time machine) to our favourite forum
where I plan to fly the DC-3, chill some Anchor and organise a feast of mulligatawny soup, chicken curry with nasi brani, gula malacca, hot kopi susu and admire the perempuans chantek. I hear you saying " What price the mendacity of nostalgia !!!"
I feel a little sorry for your antagonists on this forum as they all seem to be the victims of suburbia and as such face a future of sameness. It's all a bit sad really and one can't but help thinking of frogs in a well.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.

Regards,

Prince of Dzun

[Yorik Hunt]

You know nothing about me or my life, Prince. Don't even bother judging me. You are out of your league. Along with your cretin friend Kraaaaapin M. Go back to your overcrowded smelly little hovel.

[elektra]

Aside from all the name calling there's a little good stuff on this thread. Yorik, you ought to quieten down a little and re-read it. Then, as I have just done, read the recent report (I think in the CASA or BASI magazine-I picked it up last time home on leave) on the 737-400 microburst incident at BNE. And ask yourself how in the world an airline crew who'd received all the training QF had to offer, could get themselves into that near-death situation.

If that had been an Asian carrier people like you Yorik, would have been screaming about it. But it was QF. Perhaps Kap M was right and his advice timely, we all need to be reminded of our own fallibility.

[bonvol]

Training and Qantas is an oxymoron.

In Qantas the checking is very thorough...the "training" is virtually non existant. There is the odd check captain err training captain who may be able to spot your errors AND give some guidance to get you up to speed but most have no idea how to actually teach.

It's here's the books and sim session/check xxx is tomorrow 5am. Sink or swim.

[Watchdog]

Prince,

Don't even bother judging me. You are out of your league
Yorik (alias Chuck Magutz) is the superior race (self proclaimed) than all the rest of us

[Yorik Hunt]

Well, thank god you are here Watchdog. Keeping everyone honest. Nothing to contribute yourself, though I note. Go back to p1ssing on fire hydrants. Its all you are qualified for.

[Kaptin M]

Yorik (Yousillik) Hunt, your little temper tantrum and abuse of Prince of Dzun is, unfortunately - like the majority of your posts - uncalled for. The Prince has made no direct assault on you - indeed not on anyone. He has expressed his opinion as a result of his experience with QANTAS pilots, albeit probably not too recently.
To try to understand where he is coming from, you need only read stories of how the indiginous population of countries such as Malaya, Singapore, and India were treated by some of British and Australian imperialists during their time there.
That they were treated as second and third class citizens in THEIR own country, is something not quickly forgotten.
I had the unfortunate experience of flying with an old Chinese Captain in SQ who bore the psychological scars of his time as an F/O under dictatorial Poms and Aussies, and guess WHAT?
The very same traits that HE so hated about them, had become ingrained in him, and his subsequent treatment of Westerners!

Can you understand that the Prince of Dzun doesn't dislike them for WHO they are, but for WHAT they did THEN, and the carry over effect on future generations.

But remember the adage about being careful about whose toes you step on today.

Another glaringly obvious "issue" you have, Yk Hunt, is your inability to accept personal responsibility.
All of your problems have been caused by OTHERS - the IPG, J*, AIPA.
What are YOU PERSONALLY actually doing about accepting some of the blame that things are the way they are because YOU did NOTHING!!

As for referring to the Impulse and J* pilots as scabs, if you feel that you - as a QF pilot - have a grievance, then get on to AIPA to act on your behalf.
Or better still, notify QANTAS.

But you won't, I'll bet.
You'll simply respond with more vitriolic venom to try to cover your own inadequacies. :O

[blueloo]

Bonvol, you are spot on. Training, what training?

[Prince of Dzun]

Kapitan M: Apa khabar kawan kawan

Terema kaseh untuk demi membantan. Banyak udang banyak garam, banyak orang banyak ragan. Fakta sedih.
Jumpa lagi, selamat jalan.

Regards,

Prince of Dzun

P.S. The translation for others is: Thank you for the support. There are many shrimps, many condiments, many men and many temperaments. This is a sad fact.

[Keg]

Sked, definately not true (from page 1!). All pilots and flight engineers do CRM at the same time in the same room. Currently the CRM recurrent training delivered to techies IS seperate to cabin crew due to the HF team wanting to target some 'techie specific' issues. From my understanding of the issue, this years CRM programme has attracted a large degree of interest from overseas airlines for covering ground that few airlines have yet to address as specifically as QF has. We'll see whether it bears fruit over the next couple of years.

On first glance it appears obvious however the detail is something to behold. Of course, I'm biased towards the programme (and those that know me know why) but I reckon it's a BIG step forward for QF CRM. :D

[Yorik Hunt]

The Prince has made no direct assault on you

Oh yes, Kraaaapin M? Then whats this?

I feel a little sorry for your antagonists on this forum as they all seem to be the victims of suburbia and as such face a future of sameness. It's all a bit sad really and one can't but help thinking of frogs in a well.

If your friend wishes to weigh into this debate, then let him take his chances. I care not about his background or his culture, only what he says right here right now. And what he stated was incorrect and inappropriate. Just like most of what you say.

Let me ask you, what personal responsibility should I bear, as you suggest, towards the IPG? AIPA and QANTAS are fully aware of how I and most Qantas pilots feel about the situation. Trouble is, QF management wont do anything about it, and AIPA cant.

And as for vitriolic venom? Well, I'll save some for you. Because you deserve it for your own current behaviour, let alone what you did in '89. You are an absolute fool who uses his own vitriolic venom to make up for his own inadequacies. Such incredible hypocracy.

[Argus]

Prince of Dzun

P.S. The translation for others is: Thank you for the support. There are many shrimps, many condiments, many men and many temperaments. This is a sad fact.

Eloquently put.

[Kaptin M]

Prince, kaba baik. Terema kaseh bunya.

Yorik (Yousillik) Hunt said, "I care not about his background or his culture," - but it's "culture" that is the subject of this particular debate. (I've mentioned to you previously, on another thread, that your lateral thinking is sadly lacking. Concentrate on improving it!)

And then let's move on to your "responsibility" issue..what personal responsibility should I bear...towards IPG? AIPA and QANTASWell pal, these are the issues that YOU constantly raise. IPG are the bane of your life at the moment, because of the perceived future financial threat you presume they are.
AIPA is YOUR representative with your employer - now IF what you say....'most Qantas pilots feel about the situation."...is factual, then you shouldn't have ANY problem in making your representative lodge a grievance with your employer.
But, more than likely - as evidenced by your track record here on PPRuNe - you are making unsubstantiated statements to try to put some weight behind your vitriol.
Once again, you're using other people (most Qantas pilots) to avoid accepting personal responsibilty, and to AVOID taking any action YOURSELF ie. lacks taking control/lacks command responsibility.

If, IN FACT, what you state WERE true, then there would be a lot more support for your argued cause here on PPRuNe.
The FACT is, it AIN'T (true)!!
You are a sad. lone voice bleating loudly here.

How about demonstrating some reasonable, intellectual debating qualities here, instead of your verballic, diarrhoeiaic, diatribe.

[DutchRoll]

OK OK, now that we all seem to have agreed that QF is Dr Evil, Jetstar is Mini-me, and that rose petals should be thrown at the feet of all other operators, can we move on to another topic?????

This is making me :yuk:

[Yorik Hunt]

Are you taking drugs, Kraaaaapin? Because with some of your conclusions, I'm amazed you havent included pink elephants in your pathetic discussion. It is worthless arguing with you. I'm with dutch roll. You are making me:yuk:

[Ralph the Bong]

Yorik and Pete, I've come to really like you both. I always so look forward to reading your posts. They truely amuse me.:}

Yorik, what you could have done to help both yourselves and the IPG is really simple: you could have lobbied the AIPA to include all pilots in subsiduries. You could have discussed the isssues with other pilots in QF and stood candidates for AIPA election to ensure that you had an association management that was going to help those at Impulse. For the mutual benefit of all pilots under the QF umbrela. BUT YOU DID NOT!! And now it has come back to bite you.

I think that you must be Blind Freddy if you can't see that the IPG were going to lose their jobs if they didn't make some sort of deal with QF management. Think I'm wrong? Historical evidence comes from the treatment of Southern and AWOPS pilots by Dixon, et al. Fact of the matter is that IPG as a group successfully improved their position at a time when AIPA couldn't give a stuff about them.

You.ve spent hours and hours talking utter crap about standards at Impulse. The reality is that the pilots there have to meet a standard not at all dissimilar to standards that are provided at QF and myriad other places. You endlessly bleat on and on about the high standards of QF selection process and it just makes me laugh. This issue has been done to death by others and I am not going to repeat what many others have already said regarding the hit-and-miss nature of QF testing. Failure to gain entry in to QF is no indication of lack of ability at all.

It's evident that your real beef should be with QF management. Jetstar DOES and WILL effect your future earning potential and command prospects. Why dont you continue your tirade against the real villans; Dixon and Jackson?? :suspect:

[Yorik Hunt]

Hi Ralph. What makes you think I didn't lobby AIPA on the subject? I did. So did a lot of others. Deaf ears. Still deaf too, I believe.

I have no doubt that they would have lost their jobs if they had not prostituted themselves. Problem now is Ralph, we just might lose ours. Don't think that anyone in Australian aviation who earns more than Jetscab is safe. We arent.

My problem with these guys is that they did ZERO to improve their lot. Like gutless worms, they offered themselves for the exact same rate as they were receiving. That is truly ABOMINABLE.

I know a few guys at Impulse. They should not be in command of a 717, let alone an A320 or a Cessna 152.

My beef is with both QF management for telling us all that we are worth less and less, and with the IPG for being gutless, spineless, pathetic weasels.

[Rostov]

Chuck/yorik multiple personality disorder.
The JPC out smarted you and got the gig. You lost. Act like a child all you want, sink to all levels. Who cares.
I will take the liberty of a lash Yorik style. You pathetic twit, how sweet it is to know that you are so angry at so many thing's KEEP IT UP! Keep that blood Px up and do us all a favour....

[Yorik Hunt]

Thats ironic. Rostov, you clearly dont understand. The IPG outsmarted themselves. Look at their pay!

You gotta laugh at blokes like you....

[Argus]

I'm beginning to wonder where all of this "Mine's bigger than yours" exchange is really headed.

You don't compare size on the flight deck do you?

[Yorik Hunt]

Why, Argus? Got something to worry about?

[Argus]

Yorik Hunt

Got something to worry about?

No. After eight years in the Fleet Air Arm, and other sundry occupations since, I've learnt to distinguish between those who are 'fair dinkum' and those who are full of bull$hit.

I don't spend much time on the flight deck these days. But I'd be worried if, as SLF, flight deck crew were distracted by issues unrelated to the job at hand - i.e. flying the aeroplane!

And it's generally accepted in the early 21st Century that size bears little relationship to satisfaction.

[amos2]

Hmmm!...Interesting Argus that you should talk of those "full of Bull****!"

I'm of the impression that that applies to you also!

[Argus]

Amos2

I'm pleased to note that your first contribution to this discussion is one of personal abuse.

Perhaps you'd like to try again.