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Irv
3rd Jul 2004, 13:04
Is everyone aware that EASA (loosely the EU driven JAA raplacement) is asking whether it should regulate cabin crew?
I'm not 'of this forum' but I'm trying to get private pilots to respond to lots of EASA questions by 31st July. One of the 15 questions they are asking is whether they (EASA) should include cabin crew in their regulatory remit.
I noticed during a search of PPRUNE that there was no mention of EASA on this forum, so after a quick word with a moderator here, I thought I'd drop in a word just in case!
To read about the whole topic of the 15 EASA questions, have a quick look at
PPRUNE Link on Private Flying Forum (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=135201)
BUT cabin crew regulation us just one of 15 - number 15 actually and it reads:
Question 15:
a) Do stakeholders agree that cabin crew should hold a licence issued on the basis of
common implementing rules adopted by the Commission?
b) Do stakeholders agree that flight dispatchers should hold a licence issued on the basis of
common implementing rules adopted by the Commission?

I am going to alert Flt Dispatchers too

Irv

Captain Jumbo
3rd Jul 2004, 16:11
EASA is nothing more than a blatant Franco Kraut effort to take over more of everyone's national responsibility.
There is no reason, benefit or justification to issue Cabin Crew or Flight Despatcher licenses other than :

1. A slight perceived status enhancement - hey, I've got a licence, I must be a professional.

(Rubbish, because most of these people are very professional and don't need an ego stroke!)

2. Supposed ability to move across Europe to do the same job, Yeah, well theoretically we can do that anyhow [anyone tried??]

3. Enables EASA to take hold of the regulatory powers. This is a creeping takeover, they will grab all responsibility, they are based in Cologne, bloody miles from anywhere, and will not have sufficient staff to do the job (and probably not very good staff anyway, because the payrates are set very low!) What they will then do is devolve power back to the national authorities, but clearly be in a position of ultimate power.

All this will cost a fortune without actually producing any benefits except for the French / German view of centralising more power towards the United States of Europe.

Who will pay? Well, the EU subs will doubtless go up, the punter will pay more for his ticket, and we aircrew will be jumping through hoops no longer set by the CAA. I'm not a CAA apologist, but at least you know where they are and how to get in touch with them. Cologne!!!!!???!!!:\

Trislander
3rd Jul 2004, 18:03
What will issuing cabin crew with licences change? Will it mean that everyone will have to do another 4-6 week training course to comply with new regs (even though they are already doing the job to a safe, professional and high standard).

Sounds like EASA have nothing better to do than regulate everything they can think of.:*

flyblue
3rd Jul 2004, 18:03
Captain Jumbo and Trislander,

I disagree on every point. A CC licence grants a certain level of training. Right now any airline can train its own CC at their standards. Who checks the standards? I have heard just recently a friend of mine who was signed for a safety course he didn't take. Another CC I know changed airline and aircraft, and went on his first flight without having received the Company Manual.
Of course having a licence gives you enhanced status: like having a university degree gives you enhanced status over secondary school diploma. Would you accept the same argument for pilots? Why on Earth do they need a licence? Just for "ego stroke"? Let's accept their word on their training.

Supposed ability to move across Europe to do the same job, Yeah, well theoretically we can do that anyhow
No theorethically you can't, because there are countries (Italy, France, Belgium, Greece) where CC MUST hold a licence, and you cannot work there as a CC without getting it. I have worked in 2 countries where CC need a licence (and still hold it), and 1 where they don't (was the first for me, and wouldn't wish to go back). No need to tell you the ABYSS between the training for licence and a simple airline training.
Why shouldn't CC want to be more professional, and considered as such? It is true in countries where there is no licence CC tend to be considered little more than waiters. This reflects even on the training decided by short-sighted beancounters. Where a licence is compulsory, there are laws to respect and standards to be mantained.
A European Licence would grant the same standard of training and professionality for all European CC, and of course why not some enhanced status and respect in an industry that is depreciating even its professionals

http://www.itf.org.uk/english/civilaviation/

From ITF site an interesting article:

ITF to UK and Netherlands: ‘don’t undermine cabin crew’
The ITF has warned the British and Dutch governments that they are jeopardising plans to set new European aviation standards.

The Federation acted after learning that the two governments planned to water down a European Union proposal to finally provide a way to license and recognise the competence and vital safety and security roles of airline cabin crew.

ITF General Secretary David Cockroft wrote to the two countries’ transport ministers telling them that it was time to underline, not undermine, the importance of cabin crew – especially now when any kind of air rage or even terrorist incident in an aircraft has to be handled by the cabin staff alone, while the pilots have to remain behind a locked cockpit door.

He also asked whether ‘a factor influencing decision makers might be that the affected workforce is largely female compared to their already licensed and predominantly male counterparts in the cockpits, repair stations and towers’.

More details and a copy of the letter to the UK Secretary of State for Transport can be seen at

http://www.itf.org.uk/english/pressarea/may/cabinsecurity.htm

and

UK government ‘jeopardising plane cabin security'
International trade union federation the ITF warned the British government today that it risks sabotaging an EU plan that is close to setting new standards for airplane cabin safety and security.

The ITF has learned that the British government is trying to change a hard fought proposal to achieve a Europe-wide licence for cabin crew that will recognise their training, professional competence and safety and security roles – which are more vital than ever now that cabin doors must be locked in the event of any incident taking place on an airliner, leaving cabin crew to handle it alone.

Despite this the British government has unexpectedly joined forces with Germany and The Netherlands to torpedo a European Commission plan to introduce a cabin crew licence – even though pilots, ground staff, engineers, security staff and air traffic controllers are all licensed.

ITF General Secretary David Cockroft today told UK Secretary of State for Transport Alistair Darling that the position of the British civil aviation representatives at their upcoming meeting on 25 May in Brussels and at the meeting of the Member States Permanent representatives (COREPER) in Brussels on 28 May will be critical in ensuring that decent standards are both set and verifiable. Instead the new British position is to replace a licence that proves competence with just a record of training, to be provided by the training organisation itself, not by the state or on its behalf.

Writing to Alistair Darling, David Cockroft stated: ‘We find the position of the UK government hard to understand. Over half of all cabin crew worldwide are certificated or licensed. The US is the latest country to introduce universal flight attendant certification, issued by the authority on behalf of the State and vested in the individual. View the letter >>

‘We wonder, therefore, whether a factor influencing decision makers might be that the affected workforce is largely female compared to their already licensed and predominantly male counterparts in the cockpits, repair stations and towers.'

The ITF has made the case for cabin crew licensing to Alistair Darling before. See http://www.itf.org.uk/itfweb/media/statements/02_12_03.html for details.


For more information contact Sarah Finke, direct line: + 44 (0)20 7940 9258. Email: [email protected]

International Transport Workers' Federation – ITF: HEAD OFFICE, ITF House, 49 - 60 Borough Road, London SE1 1DS,Tel: + 44 (0) 20 7403 2733, Fax: + 44 (0) 20 7375 7871. Email: [email protected]

Irv
4th Jul 2004, 11:34
EASA is nothing more than a blatant Franco Kraut effort to take over more of everyone's national responsibility.. etc.

Yes, maybe, but the point is, (as you will no doubt realise yourself), they have to be told, subtley or unsubtley.

To see the whole prcoess for what is called 'NPA 2/2004', look here (http://www.easa.eu.int/rulemaking_en.html) but I've made it a bit easier bygiving you most of what you need below.

The question is as I stated before, but there is 'background detail' to go with it. This is the background detail


It is recognised that cabin crew shall be subject to essential requirements, but there is no common practice for verifying compliance with them. Some Member Sates issue licences or equivalent attestations or certificates.

Others leave it to air operators to verify that some regulatory requirements are met. It is time now to take a clear position about the way the Community shall regulate this category of workers. An option, taking into account the safety nature of their tasks, would be to attest compliance through the issuing of a licence by national authorities on the basis of common implementing rules. As far as flight dispatchers are concerned, there is also a need to decide whether the Community should create a uniform need for a licence or not.


So, if you want to comment on that, how do you go about it?

Well, there are email submission methods and paper submission methods, but they use 'their' form. There is is a '.doc' document you can download, edit, fill in, and email back to them, BUT in true European wastage traditions it is half a megabyte big - and of course, over 95% of that 'size' is because they had to put their logo on the form. If they'd left it off, even dial-up users would be able to download and send back in a blink.

You can get this particular comment form by clicking on EASA comment form (http://www.easa.eu.int/doc/npa_02_2004_cmtform.doc) and either saving it to disk or printing it. (or maybe your browser will allow you to just right-click and either save or print directly from there)

Here's what they say you can then do with it, (even if you have your own ideas!)

Comments on this Notice of Proposed Amendment (NPA) may be forwarded to:
By e-mail: [email protected]
By correspondence: Joint Aviation Authorities
Inge van Opzeeland
NPA Administrator
Box 3000
2130 KA Hoofddorp
Netherlands
Fax: +31 23 56 21714
Comments should be received by the NPA Administrator before 31 July 2004 and if received after this deadline they might not be treated. Comments will not be considered if the form provided for this purpose is not used.


Hope that helps ...

flybywire
4th Jul 2004, 17:27
In Italy you MUST hold a licence to work as cabin crew, and as I said in another topic, it's subject to succesfully completing the JAA class II medical, and the "Induction" course covering anything from theory of flight to aeroplane systems, emergency equipment, First Aid (only an aviation doctor can run the course) CRM, practical drills (serious ones too like the dunker) etc...
Then you're subject to a minimum of 100hrs on a SNY position, then back to the classroom in preparation for the ENAC (equivalent of the british CAA) state exam, which covers First Aid, anything about the aeroplane/equipment and an exam in English, which could be about anything.
I got asked lots of questions on the aircraft I flew on as a SNY in particular to start with,then how to treat a pax who has a gall-bladder stones colic on board and then to describe the engine with an emphasis on the reverse thrust system.Not easy if you cannot speak english!!!

Then you get your licence and you can jump between airlines without having to do the ab initio course again. Just a week or so to do the a/c conversion and commercial course.

I've found a big difference between Italy and other countries where a licence is not required. Starting from the training course, the pass rate of the exams and the kind of briefings before the flight (much easier where a licence is not required).
Preparation MUST be superior in airlines where a licence is required, because they not only have to meet their own targets and standards, but they are subject to aviation authorities' standards too.

Last but not least, passengers regard your job in a different way too. Not everybody succeeds in becoming a cabin crew and you ARE a professional.
You DO hold a licence, and you bloody worked hard for it!!

This is just my opinion based on my own experience, but I am sure there are some companies that are dreading the moment they'll have to prepare their cabin crew for a proper licence....


FBW:)

Irv
5th Jul 2004, 09:00
Having lived in France a while back I was very suspicious that if anyone downloaded the '.doc' form I mentioned, then just deleted the logo (thereby reducing the size down from 500KB to 15KBfor retransmission back, the powers that be would not accept it as it was "no longer their form". (Believe me, that would have happened in France whenI lived there!).

So I checked, and this morning received an email from them apologising and saying that the logo can be deleted and stil be acceptable. (I notice they didn't say they'd delete it at the source!)
Irv

XXTSGR
5th Jul 2004, 14:14
I'm astonished at this thread.

There's a move afoot to put the operation of the rear 9/10 of the aircraft on a much firmer regulatory footing, to establish a level playing field across Europe to ensure that there is less unfair competition through skimping of training, and it gets a rant against the French and Germans in terms that wouldn't be surprising in the pages of "The Sun"???

It is not enough to state that your operation is safe. You must be able to prove that it is safe. To this end, you should have to provide training to your cabin crew to an agreed framework. If that member of cabin crew then wants to go and work elsewhere in Europe, they can produce a licence that shows they have been trained to that standard, without having to go through the full 6-week (or however long) course.

Aircraft operators should welcome this move throughtout the JAA (or EASA) states. It will cut down on training costs (you don't have to retrain peopel already trained by someone else), it will provide a far greater degree of protection against the rogue operators out there, it will assure passengers of the professionalism of the crew looking after their interests, it will provide much-needed good Public Relations for the industry.

I hope to goodness that the Cabin Crew unions demand the government reverse their apparent opposition to these plans.

Irv
5th Jul 2004, 16:42
So I checked, and this morning received an email from them apologising and saying that the logo can be deleted and stil be acceptable. (I notice they didn't say they'd delete it at the source!)
I subsequently replied asking EASA to change the form to take out the offending super-size logo on the /doc comment form and replace it with a more manageable one, and they've actioned it same day - so downloads and sending back replies should be reasonably fast now.