Oxford LPP

[London Girl]

For anyone that is interested - Oxford have just launched a new integrated programme - basically a step down from the APP with fewer 737 sim hours, no career help, etc. Doesnt include USA accommodation though, whereas the APP does.

New course comes in at just under £50,000!

It's all on the website http://www.oxfordaviation.net/

[moo]

thanks londongirl, this is what I've been waiting to hear about! :ok:

[AIRWAY]

Interesting news. Could this be a response to the Stapleford/Astraeus joint venture?

By the way anyone knows how the Stapleford and Astraeus programme is going? Im doing my PPL with stapleford and considering this option.

[London Girl]

And the APP price has gone down! Now £56,800 including Arizona accommodation, plus the £3k test package as before.

[Half a Mexican]

£50,000 eh? Or £49,800 to be precise. That’s not actually a bad price for an integrated course these days.

Mind you, adding in the compulsory CAA test pack brings you up to £53,000 and if you add in accommodation for the course you’re looking at £62,160. And that’s if you pass in minimum hours. Extra hours set you back between £160 and £360 each.

£62,160 all in for an integrated CPL/IR + MCC. I suppose that's not too bad if that’s your cup of tea.

Cheers,
HaM

[moo]

It certainly has! About time too, always been ludicrously overpriced IMHO. Here is the breakdown:

800 hours theoretical training
102.5 hours single-engine visual (VFR) flight training
20 hours single-engine Instrument (IFR) flight training
24.5 hours multi-engine instrument (IFR) flight training
40 hours multi-engine piston simulated flight training
15 hours MCC Course on Boeing 737-400 simulator

That comes in at £49,800 and then you have to add on your CAA fees, so:

£52,800

now add £9000 oxford full-board residential accomodation (if you decided to live on site that is) (this figure includes accomodation in Phoenix for the VFR phase too)

= £61,500

now add £40/week beer money and SOME enjoyment! (£2400)


Giving us a grand total of £63,900


The APP costs you another £6000 should you choose to do it, so you can still expect £70,000 for that - which is still too much IMHO.


For comparison, I have put Cabair's integrated breakdown here too, as it is these two programmes which are the most similar:


800 hours of Theoretical Knowledge Training
125 hours of Single Engine Flight Training
20 hours of Multi Engine Training
40 hours of Instrument Simulator Training
15 hours of Multi-Crew Cooperation Training
Landing and Navigation Charges
All Course Books and Equipment
College Uniform
External Visits and Functions
Airline Orientation Course

The total fee for this £50,525

Add on CAA fees of £1650 (the reason this is cheaper is that Cabair's total flying hours include the hours that you will use up in your tests, whereas at Oxford they put on aircraft hire for those tests as a seperate entity)

Accomodation on site = £6384 (NB. this is half board, i.e. one main meal a day - Cabair do not have a full board accomodation option)

That totals £58560

Now add the £40/week enjoyment cash

and we get a grand total of £2240 (NB. this is a 56 week programme to Oxford's 61)

GRAND TOTAL £60,800

If you add on breakfast and lunch self catering, you could probably expect another £2000 for the time you're there

so in conclusion, there is probably not much in it between the two of them

Oxford you leave with 202 hours TT
Cabair you leave with 200 hours TT

WHO DO YOU CHOOSE? I've visited both and am now divided!!



:\

[cliste]

Just some more information of interest..



Integrated Costs in Spain


Jerez €92,000 = £ 61,640 Inc. Full Board

Aeromadrid €74,000 = £ 49,580 Inc. Accommodation

Aerofan €49,000 = £ 32,830 Exc Accommodation

Integrated Costs in Slovenia

Jet Link €52,000 = £ 34,900 Inc. Accommodation

[jam123]

Well, this sounds like good news, but why have they introduced this if their APP is so good?

Is this the same course oxford use to run pre APP, but now called it LPP?

How will the airlines see the LPP compared to the APP? If someone does the LPP does that mean he/she is not interested in working for the majors?

Also, i'm sure we will hear stories of the APP students having priority over the LPP.

Any views/suggestions?


Jam:confused:

[moo]

Jam123, it certainly is. I think Oxford have seen there is a very big gap between their modular and their APP and this is the answer.....at least in their opinion.

I think the APP is ridiculously priced and Oxford may be realising that unless they provide this sort of course they are going to lose a huge majority of their integrated business to the likes of Cabair and Jerez.

The main problem I have with it is that when I am spending around £64,000 with a school, I don't want to be viewed as "second rate" which as much as they will argue you won't.....you will.

Some quotes from their website:

By offering a simplified flight training syllabus, with less emphasis placed on maximising multi-engine IFR, MCC and jet training, the LPP still offers potential pilots a course fully meeting all European minimum Licensing requirements.

"simplified??" "minimum licensing requirements"?? What, you mean the same minimum licensing requirements that your APP students attain????? Give me strength.

This new course (available from July 2004) would ideally suit customers who fall into one or more of the following categories:


• do not require comprehensive assistance in gaining employment.





A no-frills license only integrated programme to compliment our flagship APP


I don't want to be 'a compliment' to their APP, some kind of side-salad!!

And "no-frills"!!!! Their marketing department should be shot! If they are wanting to sell themselves as the best place to go in the world. ...Given the universally acknowledged Oxford hallmark of “Training Excellence” then they shouldn't be selling their new course as some kind of blue and white stripey range! I didn't do a marketing degree, but even I can see that MUST be a total no no if you want to be considered as the best.

I like the idea of this course, but the problem I have is that if they are passing you off as second best on their website on the day of the release of the LPP, what is it going to be like when you're there?! Priority for the APP guys will almost certainly have been mentioned once or twice in the marketing/management/instructor meetings methinks

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Just do one thing. Speak to some of the people currently at the school self sponsored. They will disabuse you of any fancy notions the marketing department may have spun you.

Ask beady eyed questions about aircraft availability, instructor ratios, backseat rides and most importantly how and when will your trips be arranged, rearranged or cancelled.

Ideally you should be looking to fly two trips a day... this is not being achieved at the moment in some of the larger FTO's as resources have been cut from there adequate level of some years ago.

Many smaller FTO's have superior instructor ratios and much higher aircraft availability. But no fancy name to 'impress' the Chief Pilots with :rolleyes:

Cheers

WWW

[D 129]

It's a fair idea to have a more "cost competitive product" - but as WWW says, take a good look at aircraft and instructor availability, instructor pupil ratios etc. Some of the smaller FTOs may have a much better "product" and will turn you into a CPL/IR/Multi months earlier and at less cost than OAT. Oxford's ground school is still hard to beat though.

From experience you will not get two sorties a day at Oxford. Last year (when there was, to be fair, a peak in the number of Algerian lads and they were in the middle of re-organising) we were lucky to get 2 or 3 sorties a week.

Also (again from experience) I note the "no career assistance" comment. The careers folks at Oxford are fairly friendly and helpful - their seminars and guest speakers are good - but don't expect any more than that !.

Actual careers help - i.e. putting people onto panels for consideration by potential employers - is not given to all ! - To date this has been a Modular vs. Integrated issue (e.g. BMI Regional - don't even ask if you are modular !). However, quite understandably, OAT will want to be able to claim lots of success for the APP program, so that's where all the best career chances will go. (Although I'm sure not many people actually get their first break through their flight school).

D 129

[cliste]

Hi,

really helpful comments and opinions on here if you are about to select an FTO for an integrated course.

I'm off to Madrid next week for my Class 1 medical hope to finally select from two FTO's while down there but how realistic is it to fly 2 sorties a day I thought it would be at best 3 a week. I been to Cabair open day and its a week on week off flying and theory ,
talking to a student in Aeromadrid she had only flown 60 Hours in almost a year I could not understand this ( given I had achieved 70 myself in my own flight school here in Dublin in the same time )

So Guys tell me what is the standard number of sorties flying per week ?

"DAMSEL IN DISTRESS !!!!!" comments please


Cliste

[witchdoctor]

So basically OAT have just resurrected the old integrated course that they ditched when the APP was dreamt up, and muddied the water a little with regard to establishing the cost.

The 'no career help' clause will apply to everybody regardless of course choice once you've been out of the door a couple of months.

Any price reductions are purely due to better efficiencies rather than falling numbers, obviously.;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

In an ideal world you would have one instructor with two students and the instructor would have .75 of an aircraft to himself. You would do two training events a day. An event might be a solo flight, a dual instruction flight, a simulator session or a solo/dual SPIC flight. Occasionally it would be an indepth brief hopefully during a time of bad weather.

During the intensive early sorties leading up to the first solo navs then ideally you ought to be flying a morning and afternoon sortie and backseating your mates, i.e. getting airborne four times a day.

In my experience smaller FTO's will pair you up with someone on a course, allocate you both to an instructor, then let that instructor organise your training as suits. There will be less chopping and changing of instructors, aircraft and flying programs in a smaller FTO. These are usually the main gripes one hears coming from the mouths of those at the larger FTO's.

At a smaller FTO though sometimes one aircraft going tech can wipe out 33% of the flying program. Nowheres perfect.

Me. I'd go to a small FTO where my money meant something and CFIs desk was 4ft away not in another building, up the stairs, guarded by a secretary.

Cheers

WWW

[moo]

does anyone know when the first APPers are graduating?

[BillieBob]

Whatever the quality of training offered by OAT, the management do seem to make more than their share of cr@p decisions. Over recent years we've seen:

Let's move modular training to Gloucester - err, no, bad move, let's bring it back again.

Let's stop PPL training - err, no, bad move, let's start it again

Let's stop modular training - err, no, bad move, let's start it again

Let's get our overseas training done by UND, err ACA, err American Flyers, err Pan Am, err.......

Let's abandon this silly overseas training partners idea and buy a school in Tyler - now that was a doozy that, by all accounts, almost bankrupted them!

Now it's - Let's give the punters what they don't want and call it an APP course - err, no, bad move, nobody's signing up, let's restart the old integrated course again. Remember when APP used to stand for Airline Partnership Programme? - until they couldn't find any partners.

Meanwhile, every time I fly in to Oxford, the Ops Room's been re-modelled - and why is Oxford the only regional airport to look like Stalg Luft IX?

Oh yes, and I hear that they've just been savaged by the CAA inspectors - again.

[TRon]

I dont think it is any secret that moral at Oxford at the moment is at an all time low. 25% pay cut, no partner airlines and an APP scheme that is not looking like it will do as it promised.

The main problem being that many training providers now are getting you a type rating. Oxford are not set up to do so and dont market themselves this way. Whether Oxford like it or not they are seen as a small part of the process of pilot training from an airlines perspective. I believe the pressure is on the OATS to perform financially from their owners who want a return on the huge investment they have made.

Again I dont think it is any secret Rod Wren left OATS taking with him their training manual for CTC and set up CTC-McAlpine(McAlpine helicopters are next door to OATS). This is very similar to the APP scheme but has partners and is doing OK. I would be VERY peeved off if I had paid for APP only to find out they have brought it out with 'all the frills cut off' and you Just get Mike Taylor for your extra cash fighting your corner He is a nice guy, but completley out of touch with the industry.

That coupled with the fact they buy 3 sims that are a very poor representation of the aircraft (they are king airs, kitted out with Seneca dials) and yet you do 40 hours of a 55 hour course on them. Mechtronix are, of course, no-where to be seen when they go wrong!!

All in all, I dont think they will fold, but certainly without the sponsorship they used to get going through there paying all their fixed costs they are in for some lean times and will need to shape up or change their business model to provide training right to type rating, but then you need an airline to specify that....and they dont have any at the moment!

Who knows where BA will go when they finally hire ab-initio again, but it would seem CTC's product is more established and lower cost considering they can type rate them afterwards....

[RED WINGS]

If you would take my advice, and I would say the advice of most OAT graduates steer well clear.

Career Help!!!!!!!!!!!
I know of at least three people pursuing legal action.

As for student priority it used to be integrated over modular, now its APP and screw the rest. I know of many of the integrated students who were screwed over and ended up spending 2-3 months longer at the school than they were supposed to due to the darling APP guys starting up on the flight line. Can't wait to see how they explain to them when they finish that they can't place them with the advertised suitors.. The only option is to fly for a mystery asian airline for £12K a year but its OK because the cost of living is cheaper out there. I assume these mere mortals have to pay the bank manager at the end of the course. Don't you love small print!

Don't get me wrong, the ground school is excellent, although I believe there are also difficulties with this now and instructors being swapped around all the time. The flight instructors were of an excellent standard, the aircraft mediocre to poor. But the organisation itself is an absolute shower of s:mad: t. Take the time they say to complete, add 75% and expect them to frustrate you to within an inch of your life.

As for the IR first time pass rate they claimed 85% if memory serves me. I would have said nearer 50% and first series, not first time. In three months I only saw 5 people pass the IR at first attempt but what do you expect when you only get to fly twice a week if you're lucky. Ironically, of those 5 people, four were modular. Just shows you their elite integrated course ain't so hot.

My personal advice to anyone who is considering Oxford is pay nothing up front (Unlikely they will let you) or avoid like the plague!!!!!!!!! Mind you I have heard horror stories from colleagues about most integrated schools so hey maybe Modular is the best route. Let's face it, they have to give good service if they want to keep your custom!:*

[witchdoctor]

Well it was originally March I believe, then April, then June, now sometime this month.

[silverknapper]

Don't want to start another int vs modular argument. BUT!!
If I were reading this now and considering going to Oxford I think I would need my head examined. Everything above points to a second class product from an ailing dinosaur of an organisation which is clutching at straws to win back potential customers.
The beauty of going modular is choice. As red wings says, oxford have excellent groundschool - so go there for that. And for each stage pick whoever has the best reputation. If that happens to be Oxford then go for that, if someone else has a better name for, say the IR then go there. The pass rates red wings gives could certainly be improved upon at other places. Smaller ones who care about you.
I am biased - regular pruners know I am on the modular route. However this was after careful consideration and being almost there I can honestly say I have not one bit of regret.

SK

[flystudent]

Moo & Witchdoctor

does anyone know when the first APPers are graduating?

First 2 left last Friday, rest as of then......

[Johnny 7]

I hear that the flight standards manager has now resigned at Kidlington. How many more people will be displaced/removed/replaced before the morale is eroded completely ?

Oxford Air Training School used to be a name synonymous with quality, recognised throughout the industry. Can the same be said of it's successor ?